I have a question and would like some feedback. My wife has told me are getting a divorce. I have been plan Aing my butt off, only to have her say that I am trying too hard. That I need to give her space etc. I do not know what to do. I am not very good at moderation though. She tells me that she wants to live together long enough to pay down some bills then divorce. I am so confused..She tells me she loves me but has no feelings for intimacy. That part hurts allot. We still share the same bed and she holds me while spooning , even kisses my back gently, but that is it. I have been walking around on egshells for the last couple of weeks, and am pretty tired of that. Part of me says well you want a divorce then lets just get it over with. Another part of me wants to have my loving wife back. do you have any advice on how I can plan A but not over do it. I would bring home the EN questionarr, but figure she would not bother with it in her state of mind. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

This is almost *exactly* how my wife an I were... except she was firm on separation, not necessarily divorce. I was smothering her with plan A, trying to win her back... and she just kept withdrawing. I didn't really realize how to plan A until she left me. That truly, I did need to give her space... treat her like she was on her own and independent. <p>I needed my own life, hobbies, friends, etc. I didn't try talking to her so much.. sometimes, but not a lot. I would let her initiate the conversations and set the pace. I would also not be available all the time. I have been doing stuff for me and, when we do communicate, I just try my hardest to make sure not to LB. <p>I am by no means and expert here.. just started actually.. thought I was plan A'ing for a year, when actually, I was being needy and bending over backwards for her and resenting that I wasn't getting whast I wanted. Now that I'm not expecting so much, I find it much easier to moderate what I give. Been going on for 5 weeks and, while it's too early to tell if things are really going well, there have definately been improvements... regardless, I feel much better about myself.<p>Just some thoughts, others on here are on much more difficult situations and could probably help you more.

Thanks Zen,
I am definately unsure how to plan A in moderation. I too have no hobbies but I do have a great group of freinds that offer to let me crash at thier pad if I am down and out. How exactly have you been executuing plan A?

This going to sound odd. I imagined that I was totally living on my own and would never ever be with her again. Before we met I was very independent, but I remember the fun I would have with just a few hours of her time. I remember how effortless it was to show her I loved her by just a look or a small trinket.<p>Last year, I was spending thousands on new clothes, bring her coffee, trying to spend every moment with her, coming home early from work and calling her to let her know where I was... talking to her a lot about my feelings, etc. Trying to hit every "need"... like a shotgun approach. After focusing so much on her I totally lost sight of myself, and I couldn;t respect myself anymore... which made it doubly nasty because I started to depend on her for my self-esteem... I'm sure you can see the vicious cycle that followed.<p>I decided to start living my life for me and doing things that I knew would make me a better person. Nt necessarily avoiding her or trying to be always do "fun" things. I started studying Zen personally (I have always been into studying religion and sprituality), readin a lot, took up my music again.. etc. I have started calling friends and making new ones and not feeling self-conscious about it... like i am stealing time away from my wife. Overall, I have started being independent again.. it makes it a lot easier to give when you are self confident and don;t expect anything in return.. or need anything in return. It has helped a lot because now ican give and, if I don't get anything back, it doesn't hurt me.<p>I hope that helps... I could go into details, but I don't know if it will help...<p>I will share a story that I reflected upon often and that really means a lot to me...<p>
A martial arts student went to his teacher and said earnestly, "I am devoted to studying your martial system. How long will it take me to master it." <p>The teacher's reply was casual, "Ten years." <p>Impatiently, the student answered, "But I want to master it faster than that. I will work very hard. I will practice everyday, ten or more hours a day if I have to. How long will it take then?" <p>The teacher thought for a moment, "20 years."

Thanks again Zen,
You hit the nail on the head. I have no self esteem left. I realized that after reading your post. I spend way to much time trying to over plan "a" her that I am now a weak snivelling guy. I spend most of my time trying to apease her lately. The hard thing I feel is going to shift modes and start doing things for myself. It has been so long since I did for me that I cannot remember. Just last night I felt I was begging for intamcy , but she just non chalantly said that she is not in the mood and did not want to talk about it. I am angry to, but don't dare show it as it would certainly be a LB. How did you start to do things for you? part of me feels like heck you want a divorce lets just get it over with cause I am so miserable. I do love her but the way she is acting lately it is killing my feelings for her slowly. I don't know what she is thinking except for what she has told me. She says she want what is best for the kids, and that she wants to pay down some debt before we finally divorce, but I do not know hwat her timetable is. For the mean time i feel like she is taking advantage of me. She wants full custody of the kids but still has me doing a major portion of the household duties. what do you think I should do, slowly break away from her or what?

HO,
There is a fine line between being a good plan Aer and a doormat as you are finding out.<p>Doing things for yourself means setting honest goals and being honest with yourself about what you are doing. Resenting the fact that you are doing "all the chores" should be a signal to you. Why do you resent doing "all the chores"? What chores "should" she be doing? Can you sit down and formulate a plan to divide things more evenly? Can you sit down and ask her to make a budget with you for paying down the bills.<p>Could be that financial support is a major area of EN for her - one that you have missed?<p>Groveling and begging is not going to get you anywhere unless she is a control freak and enjoys that sort of thing. Even control freaks only like groveling because it lets them know that they can do anything and that you have no power.<p>You are an equal in this relationship - stand up and do your part to make that clear. You should be discussing these gripes with your wife in an open manner and not building grudges.

H99,
I essentially did meet the EN for financial support for years. I beleive she got the job to have the option for divorce. We were tight financially but making it on my salary. Her new job gets her up at 4:00 am and she is tired by the time she gets home at 3:30. As far as the chores I help more than most men in the respect that I do do windows. Talking to her about my feelings just gets her upset. At this point in time I definately feel she is in control seeing I am the vulnerable one and don't want a divorce. I think she likes having me feel this way.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HumbleOne:
<strong>H99,
I essentially did meet the EN for financial support for years. </strong> She is telling you she wants to pay off bills - an opening for communication and you won't jump in? <strong>I beleive she got the job to have the option for divorce. We were tight financially but making it on my salary. </strong> Did she say this, or is this your assumption? Now you sound resentful - maybe she didn't like how tight things were. <strong>Her new job gets her up at 4:00 am and she is tired by the time she gets home at 3:30. As far as the chores I help more than most men in the respect that I do do windows. </strong> First you say you do more than your share now you come back and correct that saying that you do more than most men?!!! What does that mean?!!! <strong>Talking to her about my feelings just gets her upset. At this point in time I definately feel she is in control seeing I am the vulnerable one and don't want a divorce. I think she likes having me feel this way.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What are you reading to learn more? What counselor are you seeing to work on your own issues? What have you done to fine tune your plan A?

H99,
I have been seeing a marriage counselor since January, mostly on my own. The two times the wife went were 1 to discuss all my faults , and 2 to tell me in front of the counselor that I was in denial about the divorce. I have been working hard on me, but feel outside myself lately. Mostly I am depressed. I am on meds for the depression and zyprexa for mood stabilizing. Don't get me wrong, I have made more than my share of mistakes in the marriage. I am painfully aware that most of our probelms now were because of me not being able to come to terms with the birth of the twins by an OM. te be honest I am not very happy. I feel beside myself, sort of like I don't know who I am anymore. I feel weak and vulnerable most of the time. I have been like this for along time.

HO,<p>work on your own self for now and find things that bring you joy. Focusing too much on her will only help you to lose yourSelf.<p>Find out what HO wants and needs and work towards that. Have some honest discussions with her to reopen the communication lines. Stop denying the divorce and work towards common goals with her of paying off bills, etc. This may work more towards bringing her back than anything else...

Thanks again H99,
Right now I know I seem pretty needy and pathetic to her. Just last night I tried to initiate intimacy and was turned down flat. I tried talking to her about it and got nowhere. I asked if it was me and she said it was her and that she did not want to discuss it. Guess I am just going to quit being a doormat. Problem with me is that I guage our relationship by intimacy, which is wrong I know. I hurt inside about our relationship and it is hard not to show it. She can read me like a book. Even when I don't say anything she can see my hurt through my eyes. We tend to think alike allot. Trouble with me is that I really do not how to start to work on myself. I am that lost really. Do you have any suggestions that might make me think about where to begin/

Heh, I didn't figure out how to start doing stuff for me until I was forced to do it because my wife left [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] So, I understand the issue of trying to live for yourself when you are in constant contact with someone that you are desparately trying to get to notice you...<p>I had to take a good long look at myself and see how I defined myself. I realized that I have totally lost my "sense of self"... I define myself by my marriage and my wife. When she's happy, I'm happy, when she's upset, so am I. I forgot that I was a separate person with my own life and that my relationship with my wife was supposed to be an "added bonus". <p>So, really, the only thing that I can suggest is start doing the things you wish you would have done when you were single (assuming those are things that stay within the bounds of your marriage commitment [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ). For example, one of the things that I have always always wanted to do is practice Zen. I have to say, it was hard for me to justify spending an hour or so sitting on the floor staring at the wall when I had someone around me. I felt neglectful. Now though, I realize I was neglecting myself ... don't know if I'll be a Zen Master or anything [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] but heck... you never know if something makes you happy until you try it... gonna try skydiving next [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] My wife hated the idea of me skydiving... heh<p>So, stop neglecting yourself. If you are happy and fulfilled in your own life, only then can you add to someone else's... I have a long way to go. I just talked to my wife last night and she has agreed to counseling, though she really doesn't believe our relationship can be fixed. What I don't think she realizes is that we "have" a relationship right now.. it's monogamous and it's supportive of allowing each other to grow... just need to work on the trust and comfort part [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Be true to yourself... I have determined that, for myself at least, I am committed to having a relationship with my wife, regardless of whether we stay together or go our separate ways. By not focusing on trying to "keep" her, and instead focusing on myself and being supportive of her (her friend), it has helped quite a bit.<p>One recommendation I have for you is, forget intimacy totally and completely. Stop trying to gauge the relationship and just relax and be yourself. Imagine that you are single and that she is just a friend... you wouldn't expect intimacy from a friend nor would you guage your friendship on the level of it. Instead, you would guage it on other things, like smiles, humor, the feeling of relaxation, etc... I used to guage our relationship with the same thing and believe me, with no intimacy for two months now and no prospects for it in the future at all, I am becoming much more appreciative of the fact that it's the "other" things in the relationship that lead to intimacy... work on those and the intimacy will come... it was "my" need, not hers.<p>Again.. just some thoughts...

Zen,
Thanks good advice, You are the second person that told me to back off on the intimacy. Guess I need to listen to logic. I did not know it has been two months for you, man you are a trooper. How should I relate to her wanting to spoon and hold me but not engage in SF? She even plays footsie while holding me. I cannot read her and am thouroughly confused. I have been trying to make sure I rub her back every night or at least offer and make sure I do not touch her innapropriately while doing it. I also rub her feet and tell her how much I love her, but I think that got old with her and hse gently let me down by saying I was trying to hard. How do I give her space and continue plan A? For now we are still together in the same house , but I do not know for how long. One thing she really hates is when I pout. I am really good at pouting. Many times I don't mean to but it sort of comes out. Another problem Ihave or had was that I called her too much from work, cannot do that anymore because it is a long distance call. I definatleey have changed allot of my LB behaviors, she even mentioned that she had considered legal separtion as opposed to divorce. Should I consider that a victory? Doesn't seem like it. I appreciate your advice and will not ask for intimacy for now, guess I should be glad she still wants to hold me?

I would definately be happy with the holding. Here is my thought on the whole thing (this is what I think.. .not what she has told me)... part of what made my wife want to leave is that she felt that she was paying for my attention, affection, etc with sex. She stopped wanting to hold me, or wanting to be held because she felt that if she did so it would be saying to me that we would have sex. I will tell you that when I say no intimacy, I mean no touch or anything... I would gladly accept a hug from her right now... it would be far more fulfilling to me than sex because it would show that she felt comfortable with me on some level. Enjoy the physical contact while you can, think about it carefully and enjoy it for what it is in and of itself, not something that gets you something. Let her initiate... and take things for face value... don't read into anything... it is what it is.<p>As for her backing off od the D word and talking about a legal separation, that is a very good sign. You must be doing some things that she is taking notice of... I would keep working on it and be very happy that she is obviously thinking about the future and is seeing that, potentially, divorce may not be the solution... I would avoid talking about it unless she wants to.. it's a lot easier for her to see your changes when she is there, as opposed to when she is gone... trust me. I don't see any end to our physical separation for a long while... but things are progressing... it's teaching me a *lot* about patience... something I wish I had while she was here.<p>Another thing, don't say you love her so much... show her by giving her what she wants, which is space and she shows her comfort with that space by wanting to cuddle with you. I think that is teriffic... she will know you love her when you start listening to her [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] My wife used to say I was trying too hard, and you know what? I was... she was in the comfort relationship phase, where you just be yourself... I was in the "let's rekindle our romance" phase and acting like we had been dating for a week... very bad combination... you need to play by her rules, so pay attention to what they are [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You see one of my big problems is I talk too much... hehe... I guess now that I don't talk to my wife much I need another outlet and you're the lucky one.

Thanks Zen,
I guess I need to reprioritize my thinking, easier said than done. Guess I need to look at things from a different perspective. Your advice was right on the money. I will go home tonight and try to be myself and not expect anything from her. I guess the hardest thing is that I am sooooo needy right now. I want to fix this yesterday, but anm frustrated that I cannot. The Engineer in me I guess. Do you think I should continue on the back rubs? I don't want to push her away, which I am sure I did last night by pushing for intimancy and discussion why not. Man I know I am not a bad guy but she is definately holding the strings on my puppet. All last week I left her roses in her car with love notes professing my undying wish to be with her. She liked them , but I sabotaged it by asking her everytime I gave her one if she liked them. It seems that I am doing the right things, but destroying the good parts by asking. as you can see my self esteem is at a negative number right now. I won't sugar coat it, I have lost who I am since she told me in January that she is going to divorce me. Daily I feel like a failure as a husband and father, and it is hard to think otherwise. She is a good woman and I screwed my marriage up by being a yeller. There has never been any physical violence, but allot of yelling on my part in the past. When I have tie to think about it I know why I am angry. It was the life changing events of having the twins by an OMthat I could not get over. Now I regret my choices. Hope it is not too little too late for me.

Thanks Zen,
I guess I need to reprioritize my thinking, easier said than done. Guess I need to look at things from a different perspective. Your advice was right on the money. I will go home tonight and try to be myself and not expect anything from her. I guess the hardest thing is that I am sooooo needy right now. I want to fix this yesterday, but anm frustrated that I cannot. The Engineer in me I guess. Do you think I should continue on the back rubs? I don't want to push her away, which I am sure I did last night by pushing for intimancy and discussion why not. Man I know I am not a bad guy but she is definately holding the strings on my puppet. All last week I left her roses in her car with love notes professing my undying wish to be with her. She liked them , but I sabotaged it by asking her everytime I gave her one if she liked them. It seems that I am doing the right things, but destroying the good parts by asking. as you can see my self esteem is at a negative number right now. I won't sugar coat it, I have lost who I am since she told me in January that she is going to divorce me. Daily I feel like a failure as a husband and father, and it is hard to think otherwise. She is a good woman and I screwed my marriage up by being a yeller. There has never been any physical violence, but allot of yelling on my part in the past. When I have tie to think about it I know why I am angry. It was the life changing events of having the twins by an OMthat I could not get over. Now I regret my choices. Hope it is not too little too late for me.