Our relationship started off as a fairy tale; totally perfect, we had GREAT communication and friendship and clicked right from the start.<p>From the beginning we BOTH felt like we were struck by lightening!! <p>We've been together for 8yrs. married for 6yrs.<p>My wife met someone Feb 02 and has been seeing him on/off since then.<p>At first she told me the relationship was "just friends". I always believed it was more than that.<p>Found out that he is the guy we had over the house to get an estimate on building a pool (He's the owner of the pool company; a VERY smooth talking guy; very likeable.)<p>2 weeks ago she told me she cannot imagine her life w/o me and told him she absolutely could not see him anymore.<p>Yesterday she saw him again; she told me that he told her he loved her and she told me she loves him. (I don't know how sure she is of that she seems very confused.)
She said she wants to see where it goes.<p>We STILL have a lot in common; love ea. other very much; and have wonderful lovemaking.<p>BUT - she now tells me that she can't promise she will be faithful.<p>She also tells me that she doesn't want to give up on us either...she can't make up her mind.<p>I told her I can't live this way and she will have to say goodbye to one of us... I am seriously considering filing for divorce.<p>I can't eat/sleep/work function!!
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!!<p>Should I make the choice for her?? Divorce.
Or (This is absolutely irrational : wait it out?? ). Problem with waiting it out is that it is VERY PAINFUL!!<p>I REALLY don't want to throw away 8rys!!<p>Anyone have any experience with this??<p>Thanks,
Mark D.

Hi TampaGuido:<p>I feel sorry for you I am exactly in your situation read my thread on Plan B/Need advice...<p>It is the same lines and similar situation..
Unfortunately I do not have an answer for you.<p>I am being patient and trying that route but I know the pain it brings and I am not sure how long I can sustain it....<p>it is your personal choice - PAIN or D but I will tell you one thing no matter how hard we all try we will be able to forgive but never FORGET... This A keeps on coming back to my head no matter how hard I try I cannot forget... And I am not sure whether I will be able to work on our M if my W comes around...<p>Good Luck, you have a lot of company here at MB..Keep venting it helps...<p>TheLion

I suggest you read all the material on this site, especially the infidelity and emotional needs sections before you make a decision.<p>Post your questions---there are many wise, kind souls who will help.

Waiting it out isn't so irrational, there are a lot of folks here who have survived situations like what you describe.<p>Here are a couple of links that might help: click here and click here too.<p>It's tough, but it can be done.

When a MW says that she is confused and wants to see where her affair relationship is going what she is really saying is if I can keep hubby around than If the affair goes nowhere at least I will still have the security of being married. In other words, you are her second place choice. If you accept this situation than you will riding an emotional rollercoaster for months or years. Even if she comes back your marriage will be in ruins. In fact, standing by while she is dating this OM shows that you are accepting this situation. The chances are that she has already been unfaithful to you. Of course, you cannot control her actions but you have the power to control what you are going to accept. I would have zero tolerance for this kind of behaviour. If her intention is to behave as a single woman than I would file for divorce. If the situation was reversed would she accept this kind of behaviour. I doubt it. Don't put up with this disrespectful nonsense.<p>[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: tomaz ]</p>

tomaz:<p>More non-MB advice, along with some good points, sorry:<p>"When a MW says that she is confused and wants to see where her affair relationship what she is really saying is if I can keep hubby around than If the affair goes nowhere at least I will still have the security of being married."<p>There's nothing new in this. It's major fog rationalization, and TG shouldn't hurt himself trying to make sense of it.

"In other words, you are her second place choice."<p>I don't agree. She's AVOIDING making ANY choice, because she doesn't want to have to. I told my WW that I felt like a "consolation prize" and still do at times, but she never had even thought of it - because she NEVER THOUGHT THAT WAY (only irrationally).

"If you accept her logic than you will riding an emotional rollercoaster for months or years."<p>TG will be riding the emotional rollercoaster REGARDLESS of what happens next. He's been hurt by her A (possibly only emotional, at this point, but just as, if not more serious than a PA). He will have to deal with his feelings and rebuild himself regardless of whether he stays M'd to his W or starts a new R with someone else... or he risks this happening again.

"Even if she comes back your marriage will be in ruins."<p>Hor$e$hit. It's falling into ruins NOW. If she comes back (preferably sooner, not later) they have an opportunity to make their M better than it ever was before her A. He needs to read all he can from this site and from the numerous publications about surviving a spouse's A. HE CAN GET THROUGH THIS! Either with his W or on his own. <p>"In fact, standing by while she is dating this OM shows your acceptance of this situation."<p>Yeah, I guess so. And what would you have him do? Make demands? He's not "educated" enough himself about plan A (which, TG, will really save your sanity and possibly your M, probably more than anything right now) to be in a position to make any demands that his W do or not do anything right now that she doesn't volunteer on her own.

"The chances are that she has already been unfaithful to you. Of course, you cannot control her actions but you have the power to control what you are going to accept."<p>This is true. She may have been unfaithful (physically, I presume you mean) already. She certainly has been emotionally unfaithful at least since Februrary. He can't control her actions (if he's going to do a good plan A), but he can certainly make it clear to her what the consequences of those actions will be. But to do that, he needs to be in better "shape" himself, so that he can do a good plan A.<p>"I would have zero tolerance for this kind of behaviour."<p>As many would. But I think most that say this are ready NOW for DV if that's the result of making ultimatims of their spouses.

"If her intention is to behave as a single woman than I would file for divorce."<p>Um... she'd be behaving as a M'd woman, if she continues this A with OM. M'd to the OM! <p>"If the situation was reversed would she accept this kind of behaviour. I doubt it."<p>Tomaz, you always ask this question. Let me tell you what my W would have said about a year ago: "You should go find someone better." To which I always answered, partly because I didn't know she was having an A; "I don't want someone 'better', I want YOU." But then, I said that repeatedly AFTER D-day, too. Bottom line, my W would have been able to "justify" her bad behavior more easily if I'd been behaving similarly. Doesn't matter that you said "if the roles were reversed" She wouldn't even be able to conceive of being the betrayed, honest spouse, because she had to rationalize how she was dishonest and kind and loving at the same time. It isn't logical. It never can be. Heck, I think I've even asked my W that very question. I think her answer was "I'd be happy for you." Got me absolutely nowhere.<p>"Don't put up with this disrespectful nonsense. "<p>Right. TG shouldn't "put up with it". He should get busy and work on a good plan A, rebuild himself, and go from there. If he can, it would be great to get both him and his W into counseling. Preferably before her A gets any worse. But, in the end, it may have to run its course for her to realize the fantasy A isn't worth as much to her as her reality M. TG needs counseling for himself, needs to feel better about himself. When he does this, she'll become more attracted to him again, and hopefully will want to save her M before he's no longer interested in it. Remember, what's important is that TG will be a good companion to his W or some other lucky woman at the end of the process. The tragedy here is that, without kids, one of the "easy" options is to just end the M.<p>Good luck to you TG. This is very hard stuff to have to deal with.

2Long I believe that in this situation in which she has not had a long relationship with the OM that TG should not stand by and do nothing. Even if she is in a fog she knows right from wrong. Plan A is not meant to stand by and allow an affair relationship to develop any more than it has. The longer the relationship is allowed to continue the more his wife is going to bond with this OM. If she realizes that her husband is going to divorce her if she continues with the affair she is going to realize that if the affair goes nowhere she is going to be left a single woman without anyone. If her relationship with her husband has been one in which there has been no abuse she is going to think twice about leaving. This is a similar situation to INAFUNK. Ms.Funk stopped the affair when her husband filed for divorce. TG should use Plan A and try to show his wife that he is willing to work on fulfilling her needs but at the same time he would be foolish to stand by while she is dating another man and telling her husband to wait while she sees whether this man rings her chimes. Based on TG post he has a good chance to save his marriage if he does not accept this disrespectful behaviour. I believe a tough love approach using Plan A would wake up his wife and get her back to working on the marriage.

WOW! Great replies, I REALLY appreciate you all taking the time to answer.<p>First, I have recently realized by the WS behavior that she is trying to reslove this inside herself (I know this by her mood, behavior, talk etc.).<p>I DID tell her the other day that she CAN'T have it both ways; and said "I know".<p>I have been getting the gut feeling (very strong) lately that the OP has been losing the importance
to her he had originally.<p>Could be wishful thinking in my mind. Who the he**
knows at this point. I don't think I can trust words right now (from her). Actions speak louder.<p>We talked about needs and she says I fulfill 80% and she went to him for the other 20%).<p>I asked her what the 20% was and got some answers.
I told her I'd like to work on the 20% w/her.
We'll fill out the emotional needs questionnaire.<p>I can't realistically fulfill %100, %100 of the time but I think I can come close.<p>I've told her that the marriage can't move forward unless the marriage consists of "us".<p>NO other people can be between us if we are to reconcile this situation.<p>I don't want to pressure her to give up the OP because I think that will make her move toward him more.<p>I would like the A to burn out on it's own.
That would be a better lesson for her to learn from.<p>Currently I have expressed my desire to have her separate from him but she won't yet ( I can tell she's struggling with it, I feel she wants to but something's stopping her).<p>She told me yesterday she sees him as more of a friend and not someone she would want to spend her life with. (But as you all know this is a rollercoaster and how much can you trust words.)<p>What I've learned from all of this is that ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS -- HANDS DOWN ; NO EXCEPTIONS !!!<p>I'll probably give plan "A" another month (that'll be 5 monthes with the OP.)<p>How do I initiate paln "B" if "A" doesn't work??
I mean how do I do it in a positive way.<p>I can't say -
"well you haven't changed your behavior so I'm going to separate from you for a while so you can think??"<p>This sounds like I didn't get what I want so I'm leaving.<p>Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to word this??? THANKS.<p>
ALL YOUR RESPONSES ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!!<p>I've been reading ALL I can on this site; Thanks GOD for this site and Dr. Harley of course.

P.S.<p>I've read plan "A" but what is the tough love appr.??<p>I don't want to push her toward him, that would be bad.<p>At least plan "B" would get ME out of the situation. And I AM SURE that would get her thinking.<p>I HAVE suggested a separation in the past and this really jump-started her brain!<p>She REALLY doesn't want to separate ( And why would she she's getting %100 of her emotional needs fulfilled).<p>I think though a separation would move her toward some rational thinking and a decision.<p>I am in therapy REBT (Rational emotive behavior therapy). I like the concept which is basically YOU are responsible for how you act and that your emotions come directly from what you think(or say to yourself).<p>Thanks.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TampaGuido:
<strong>I've read plan "A" but what is the tough love appr.??</strong><hr></blockquote><p>"Tough Love" is a concept put forth by a guy named James C. Dobson, who wrote Love Must be Tough. I believe it's a good book as far as it goes and his suggestions dovetail right into the idea of Plan B, but he completely ignores the Plan A concept. Basically, Dobson says that for an affair to happen, the wayward spouse (WS) has to completely lose all respect for the betrayed spouse (BS). He claims that the correct approach to solve this problem is for the BS to completely and immediately refuse to accept this behavior, much like tomaz has repeatedly suggested here and elsewhere.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TampaGuido:
<strong>I don't want to push her toward him, that would be bad.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You're right, you don't want to push her toward him. A premature jump to Plan B would definitely have that effect. It may be necessary at some point in the future, but from what you've said you're doing the right things - at least according to the MarriageBuilder philosophy you are.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TampaGuido:
<strong>At least plan "B" would get ME out of the situation. And I AM SURE that would get her thinking.<p>I HAVE suggested a separation in the past and this really jump-started her brain!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The right way to go to Plan B is to make sure you have an absolutely stellar Plan A going. If you've had several months of no lovebusters (LBs) and you've been meeting the emotional needs she'll allow you to meet, you've done a good job. Either she'll respond positively, or she won't. If she doesn't, Plan B will become a reasonable option at that point. I'd really suggest that you get into counseling with one of the Harley's, because they are real good at being able to assess your state and help you make the decision about Plan B timing.<p>One of the key factors is the Plan B letter. You are very correct when you say that you can't just take your ball and go home if she doesn't play the way you want, so you write a very nice letter that in effect says "I love you and I want a real marriage with you. This situation is too painful. My love is dying and so to protect what love I have left I must separate from you. When you are able to rebuild a successful relationship with me without the involvement of an OM, please let me know. Until then, please don't contact me in any way." There is a great example if a Plan B letter in Surviving an Affair and I think there are other examples on this web site. You might have to look around for them. And the Harleys will help you too, if and when you get to that point.<p>You have a lot of great things happening in your situation, TG. Keep up the good work!

TG:<p>I guess I really agree with a lot of what tomaz has said above, though you need to realize that going to plan B (separation) should NOT be done unless you are prepared for divorce if she "calls your bluff" (meaning, it should NOT be a bluff). It can certainly wake her up, as it did inafunk (though that situation is far from resolved, still).<p>I think you are right in choosing to let the A burn out on its own, but be prepared to go through testing and waiting for results for STDs. Harsh reality these days. You clearly love your W, so working a little longer on your plan A before going to B is probably called for. Hard decisions. I know I wouldn't be able to stay in plan A if my W were seeing her OM (hasn't since 2 months before D-day), but I've been doing a "good" plan A for almost 4 months now. Most people need to plan A for about 6 months, but it certainly isn't a hard and fast rule. Your mileage will vary.<p>Good luck,

If she has been involved with this OM for 4 months what makes you think that another month is going to make any difference. What you are essentially doing is enabling her to continue this affair. The longer it goes on the more likely it will be difficult or impossible for her to break it off. If she is telling you that you provide 80 percent of her ENs than you need to have faith that you are the more important person in her life and that she will give up the OM if given a good push. An addiction is not cured by helping to feed the addiction.<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: tomaz ]</p>

Ok, you know your choices. Filing for Divorce NOW isn't one of them if you want your wife back. Save that for when you've had enough of plan B.<p>The early days of any relationship are usually extremely intense, extremely passionate - your wife is probably getting to the end of this phase with OM, but it will probably take time for her to relaise she needs more from whichever relationship she chooses. Unfortunately you get screwed up in this time.<p>A trip to the doctor - get some anti-depressants.<p>Work for Plan A and you. Do those "husbandly" household chores, get a hobby (or go back to one you gave up as a result of marriage!), eat well and look after your physical wellbeing.<p>My guess is it will take longer than a month. Don't put a timescale on it yet - addictions are hard to break.<p>In her own time she will probably end the affair. Give her an ultimatum NOW and you may lose her for good. You will know when the time to issue the Plan B letter is - hopefully you won't get there. <p>Best of luck, and remember, evn when the affair is over, it doesn't mean your marriage is perfect again - there will be a lot of emotions to face that you don't understand and aren't to blame for. Keep plan A going for the rest of your life!

I would have to agree much more with Tomaz. Your wife sounds like a cakewoman who wishes to continue the affair after 4 months to make sure what she wants. It does sound like you are the doorprize if she cannot be with him permanently. You are a safety net for her. The fact that you seeming accept the situation for over 4 month to allow her to continue the affair is quite odd. The fact that she could not promise you that she could remain faithful indicates most likely she has not been faithful. She would have to have a great deal of disrespect for you to continue this behavior. I agree with you that words are cheap and that action speaks louder than words.
There is an old saying which states:
"no consequences to her behavior = no motivation to change".
What does this all mean? I would think that your wife now knows that she has a husband who meets 80 percent of her needs and allows her to have her other 20 percent met by another man. I would really question how she could really respect a husband that would allow the situation to continue for over 4 months. All I can say is that if it does not bother you sharing your wife with another man then more power to you.
If she decides to stay with you then what do you really have? She now knows that you have been accepting of this and more than likely will engage in this of behavior in the future.
I think you need to reread Tomaz again. This situation will eventually destroy your self esteem and your love for your wife. Your wife says she loves you but also loves the OM and wishes to keep both of you. You need therapy to understand why you are so accepting of this humiliation and disrespect. It seems to me that you lose no matter what the outcome is.

I understand what you all are saying. It IS HARD to "sit back" and "deal" with what's going on.<p>I am being careful NOT to jump to Plan "B" TOO fast.<p>I also have told my W that there WILL be consequences to these actions and that I am having MAJOR problems w/this situation.<p>I removed my wedding ring last thurs. and gave it to her and I said "I'll put it back on when I feel married".<p>Thru our discussions this weekend she has told me that (after some realization) that the OP is NOT someone she wants to have a relationship with much less spend her life with), she referred to him as "just someone to take up time with", more of a freind (To which I replied that he was much more than a friend).<p>I feel she is now pulling away from him and towards me in a MAJOR way.<p>I don't know if I really agree that she has no respect for me (Because she is having an "A").<p>I see it as she has no respect for herself.
I see it as HER problem (deficiency)that she was weak an went outside the relationship instead of communicating her needs to her husband (I am somewhat at fault as well).<p>Things now seem to be going very well and I can't honestly make demands to "make" her give up the OP before she's ready. <p>I don't want her back because I told her to come back. I want her back because she sees/knows that we have a GREAT relationship and WANTS to come back because of that.<p>I have MY OWN timeline and as long as things ARE getting better going to plan "B" now may blow it!

P.S.<p>Should I impose a deadline??<p>Say by 6/30 I NEED an ANSWER as to what she want to do - ME or HIM ??<p>And force her to choose???

A deadline might be a good thing FOR YOU, but it won't do your ws any good. If you do have a deadline, keep it to yourself. Telling her that she has until 6/30 to make a choice or else you're outta there will be considered a Selfish Demand (one of the more common lovebusters). It'll lessen the odds that her affair will die out on it's own and it might drive her away from you.<p>In other words, it's a lovebuster, and in Plan A the big picture effort is that you eliminate LBs and meet ENs. You want her to get the idea that you are a much superior choice and that she'll be happy if she chooses you.<p>You're doing very well at this. Some of us can only wish we had the chance you have at saving our relationships. Keep up the good work!<p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: o2bsane ]</p>

Imposing a deadline makes the whole thing melodramatic. My suggestion to you is to simply speak from your heart to your wife and tell her that you cannot continue with this situation and will be filing for divorce tomorrow. There are two ways she is going to respond. Either she will accept this or she will plead with you not to do it and tell you that she will return to being your wife. What you will be doing is telling her that you are making a decision as how you are going to live your life. You are not telling her how to lead her own life. You are respecting her decision to do what she wants. She is going to look at you with respect if you approach her in this manner. No threats. No ultimatum. Just one adult speaking honestly with another adult. That is the way I would handle it. If she wants to stay married to you than she will beg for you to take her back. Otherwise, my friend, it would be healthier for all concerned to move on.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tomaz:
<strong>Imposing a deadline makes the whole thing melodramatic. My suggestion to you is to simply speak from your heart to your wife and tell her that you cannot continue with this situation and will be filing for divorce tomorrow. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>You don't make sense Tomaz; don't impose a deadline, but tell her you're filing for divorce tomorrow?<p>Tell us your story, tomaz; you seem so sure about your methods, you probably have a good success story to tell.

Well, I'm thrown backward again!!<p>She say the OM last night. Lied to me on the phone minutes before they met; said she'd be right home, would I like her to pick up anything to eat??<p>I said no just come on home, I've eaten.
She got home around 10pm.<p>Teetering on separation (Plan "B")!<p>I've been depositing MANY love units and she's been responding very well but still won't give up OM.<p>He's having problems w/his wife too- suprise, suprise. She just moved in after a 90 day separation.<p>Anyone have any suggestions on plan "B", been doing plan "A" for about 3mos now!<p>Thanks I REALLY appreciate everyone's responses!<p>TG.