I'm 32, male, father of 3 wonderful daughters (8,6,4), and married since age 20. At age 29.5, I had an awakening in life. I had finished graduate school and life was slowing down a bit...a good thing...time to focus on the family. But I realized what was most important to me, my soul mate relationship with my wife, was totally missing. Our marriage had been horrible...all of it. Nothing in common, no shared interests, no shared desires/goals, nothing. So why did we marry? A brief (I'll try to be brief...) history.<p>We grew up together in church. At age 12 I told my friends I would marry this girl. She was 16. I never thought about it again...at age 14 we were dating (she in college, me in high school) and at age 20 we married. Never gave it a thought...I had a plan...she was part of it. We were good friends in our youth...so it seemed like the next logical step. There was no premarital sex (or wedding day sex for that matter). We had never spent more than 24 hours together before marriage. We got along OK, but certainly never really did anything (that I can recall now) together that we really both enjoyed. No common interests (save perhaps a mutual love of animals). <p>So in 1990, we got married. Between my junior/senior year in college. After college, off to graduate school. In '94, first daughter was born...followed by the second in '96 and third in '98. I turned employee in '94 to support my family. No problems with that...my family comes before my career. <p>As an aside...I am a physicist. All my faith in "God" has been replaced with my understanding of nature. I remain an extremely spiritual person, yet I have no faith in a diety, rather feel the connection with nature, life, importance and priorities, etc.<p>A bit about me...I am very ambitious, driven, not very patient, and always am on the go. Currently I am building a house for the family...back in the woods, on 50 acres, all myself. A life long dream, although far from the dream house.<p>My wife, I'd say, is not ambitious, not very driven, although will study hard. Instead of going after what she wants in life, she's more the let it come to her type of person. Her parents were very poor and much of that lifestyle (never having, never achieving, never even wanting...) has been engrained in her.<p>OK, so 3 years ago, I realize how empty my life is. I would awake daily yearning to share my life with her, to have a true bond and connection that I felt was what soul mates were to have. Someone that would roll over in bed and put their arm around me and say "I love you". Someone that would wake up in the morning and wake me up and say "Let's go do this..." Someone that would enjoy making love...true making love. Someone that wanted to share life with me, truely share it and live for each other. I would talk to her, usually I in tears, and describe what I was longing for. One day, she looked me straight in the eyes as I was pouring my soul to her, and she said "You need Jesus". I think that was a turning point...<p>So, needless to say, withing 6 months of feeling that way, I met another woman. She was indeed a wonderful person...married...three kids. Within 10 days, I told my wife all about her...and I was out of the house. <p>During this time, my wife showed some changes...Suddenly there was an apparent interest in sex. Suddenly she wanted to return to school (she had been staying home with the kids fulltime...although she has a college degree). <p>It was the most bittersweet time of my life. I had found this woman that was wonderful, fun, smart, driven, ambitious, yet not at all an elitist. Like me, just as happy helping the neighbor farmers bale hay as to working in the lab with cutting edge research.<p>Yet I had left my three daughters...which mean everything in the world to me. I was the guy who doesn't drink, smoke, no anything...I was basically the poster-child for the born again christian community, although I don't believe! Never would divorce happen to me...yet suddenly all that I yearned for...was beside me.<p>In the end, six months later, she decided she could not break up her family. I highly respected this...and have never spoken with her since. I never did ask her to leave to be with me...rather she had to make up her own mind.<p>A month later, I decided I was not ready to walk away from my marriage of 10 years in that fashion...and we decided to try again.<p>It is now nearly 2 years later...and nothing fundamental is different. My wife has completed the first of a two year nursing program...which she enjoys. I think education of any kind is wonderful...so I am all for it.<p>I guess I was hoping that school would impact her...make her more confident, give us something somehow to share. But I don't see it...There's still this "let life come to her" kind of person.<p>I long for conversation...for intelligent intellectual conversation at home. But I don't get it. Maybe talk of the day's events...but never more. She just likes to watch TV...then go to bed. No sharing of time, no conversation. No sharing of anything.<p>OK...hopefully that may explain how I feel, and somehting of the situation.<p>To be very honest, I don't think I ever was in love with my wife. I literally had a plan at 12, and never thoguht about it again...and married at 20. At 30, I realized the importance in life...what I yearned for. <p>I have tried...and now I feel like it is hopeless and there is nothing I can do. I feel like my wife needs to somehow engage me, somehow break the circle. <p>I feel like I am trying to falling in love with someone...and I don't think you can control or ever force this. Honestly, there is no attraction to her. But the kids...oh the kids. I can't imagine dragging them through the evil D. I don't think my wife is capable of a "friendly" divorce. Yet I know I am personally unhappy. I can't imagine staying with my wife once the kids leave (we talk about this and both agree). And spending years together, for the kids, is that best for the kids???<p>Sorry for the complete rambling...and comments/suggestions would be most appreciated.<p>Unlike ALL the other topics and threads here, I don't think there ever was a good period in our marriage. I don't think I ever loved my wife...it's not about trying to recapture or rekindle, its about falling in love. And I don't think this can be forced...<p>Comments?Suggestions? ANYTHING!???<p>Thanks much!

bp22,<p>I am glad you care enough to come on MB and try to get help. I think that's great. <p>I think because you didn't date much and you had very few relationships to compare your relationship now to, you have this unrealistic expectation that marriage should be easy, that connection in marriage should be easy and that if you had your "soul mate" things would just fall into place naturally....<p>It's just not true.<p>Marriage is work. There is no such thing as a true "soul mate". This is realty, your world is fantasy.<p>I also think you are living in a world of fog. Which is often what people thing as an "eye opener" but years later they wake up from their "wake up call" and realize they were in this fantasy world of a fog.<p>In order for any marriage to be successful you are going to have to work at this. You and your wife should try counseling. <p>Several people have done MB counseling and say it's the best. Even if you don't go with the Harley's, there are Marriage Counselors that follow Harley's principals.<p>Your marriage is going to take a lot of work to get it where you want it to be, but I think you and your wife could do it if you just tried.<p>Also, about this other woman. You may think she was "perfect" but remember that you didn't live with her for 10 years...<p>Often the first year or so in a relationship people try their hardest to please, to have that conversation and to have things in common with the other person. Also, the conversation is usually more interesting because you are just getting to know this person...Ten years from now, it's not as easy, I don't care who it's with...<p>So when you both poured out your heart and soul, when the novelty start to wear off, when things get settled down, when both parties feel comfortable with each other, when you get relaxed with one another and feel a sense of security that you won this other person over, then comes the harder work...<p>Then even if they do have all those great attributes that you are looking for, you often find they have other attributes that are just as bad or worse than any other relationship you had. You just over looked this during the first year or two or it didn't show up. Then, once again, you have to find common ground and find ways of dealing with your relationship.<p>Well, I hope this isn't choppy, I am leaving for work but wanted to respond.<p>In closing, I would suggest you read up on MB for starters. Also, as you read keep in mind the things that you should be or don't do in your marriage. These things could be reasons why your wife doesn't say the "I love you's" and let's go do this today. Perhaps *you* are not meeting her needs either. Many, many women have a problem of connecting in a loving way to a husband that doesn't meet needs. If this is true with your wife, then your wife is not unique in this way.<p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA

Anna:<p>Thanks for the reply! First, I read two of the MB books...and I agree, they are very good. I haven't found anything as good. I read them two years ago during the time away from home...ended up giving them to the other woman to read...I think I should buy them again.<p>I have been told I am expecting a fantasy, fairy-tale marriage. Primarily by my wife. I do agree I have high expectations...I have high expectations of everything in life, of my work, of those I work with, etc. <p>But, I'm not sure I can fundamentally agree with you. There is no doubt that the OW had her issues...and as you say, every relationship has its problem areas. There is no perfect relationship, without lots of work.<p>But, do you like every person you meet? No, of course not. Some people rub you the wrong way, for whatever reason. And you'd never marry one of these people...at least not knowingly. <p>You are right, I never have dated before. Never. I always thought, since I was a whopping 12, I knew what I wanted. My mom and best man of my marriage tried to talk me out of it. It was clear (now) that we didn't get along and there's no way marriage was logical. But it seemed natural...<p>So, while I completely understand what you are saying about the wake up call into the fog, and I will really try to ponder this more (and trust me, I think about all this way too much every day), I guess it seems to me I am trying to fall in love with someone I am not attracted to. And I don't think that can work.<p>Yes, you can make it livable. It can be fun at times...although very rarely. And today I am convinced the kids are better off with us together, so there's no movement. Yet I know so much is missing...<p>I'm not sure what I am hoping to hear...I'd do anything to fall in love with my wife...we have tried counseling...but it seems to me the assumption is always trying to get back to the way it was...trying to rekindle the love. In my case, it's different. There was never any true love...I was 12!! <p>It seems to me the option is either all the horrific pain and turmoil of divorce, especially with 3 kids, or settling for something that is not what I want. I know it is not a fairy tale...and anyone who believes that you can't find someone that is what I call a "soul mate" at least, is willing to settle for much less than what is possible. I agree, it takes lots of work. But that is what it is all about, about giving to your spouse, placing her/him high up on that pedestal and living more or less for that person.<p>To me, I want and equal partner. Someone with a separate thread in life that goes off and does her thing happily, but every day our threads come together and knot, into a single thread. Day after day. <p>Now I feel like I am swimming through life with my wife behind me, being pulled along by the rope between us, instead of her swimming along my side. It hurts.<p>And I also agree with you and meeting her needs. I think that's one of our biggest problems, neither of us can meet each others needs. There's not much in the love banks...but there never was. <p>I think it boils down to the fact that I am not attracted to her, to who she is, to how she carry's herself, how she acts, what she does, etc. and then I find it very difficult to intentionally make the effort to meet her needs. It feels so fake...so empty...so contrived...because there is no attraction. I have done this so many times over the past 3 years...and everytime a piece of my heart is torn away when I do not get the response I am looking for. <p>Now that is a problem, the fact that I have expectations. But don't we all have expectations of everything? Maybe mine are too high...but that is me...I can't change them without settling for something that I don't want.<p>If only there was something unexpected handed to me...it'd be different. But there's not, it is ALWAYS the same, always predictably disappointing.
Believe it or not, I am an optimist!! But years of this disappointment has really shredded my heart I think (and feel).

BP,<p>I had to copy one of your statements. I know you say it's hard to meet a person's needs that you don't find attractive and also meet her needs when you get shot down, but just look at what you said...<p>I agree, it takes lots of work. But that is what it is all about, about giving to your spouse, placing her/him high up on that pedestal and living more or less for that person.<p>Okay, I want you to think about this...Just from what you told me it's obvious you probably don't do this...it sounds like you never did this...and from what I hear from you, it's all about "you", your needs, not your wife's. Often in marriages it's just like that with everyone, each in their own selfish way wanting their spouse to put them on a pedestal and put them first above all...unhappy and unsatisfied because we all want it...but we don't want to give it for whatever reason...<p>Okay, so looking at that...Do you ask your wife what she needs? Do you put her needs above yours? Do you put her desires above yours? What about her dreams?<p>How much say did she have in the dream house you are building now? Is this at all her dream? Do you ever look at your wife's dreams and want to fulfill them instead of yours? <p>Is your world all about making you happy or is it about making your spouse and your children happy? Is your world about you, your wife and your children each as individual units and each one having their own goals to be happy? Has your world ever been about making your family happy as a unit?<p>Often if you make them happy, and look at your family as a whole unit that all must be happy, then I think your happiness will flow a little more.<p>Just some thoughts.<p>Also, you say you tried counseling, I'd say for your families sake try the MB counselors. I personally haven't tried them, but I have a friend who tried them, she's the one who directed me to MB, and she says they were better than anyone she's ever tried.<p>Regarding your comment on there not being a foundation of chemistry to really build on. I do understand what you are saying, but I do think it's your marriage, you had three children, you made this choice, you say you made it at 12, but you stuck to it as an adult, so you actually made it as an adult too. I'm not saying you should live in total mysery over your choice, but what I am saying is that you owe it to your entire family to try to come up with a solution and a way for you to have a happy family. Which from what I'm seeing is what you are doing and I admire you for that. Although, I see you approaching it a little wrong but approaching it as make me happy and my family will be happy...instead of make my family happy and I will be happy.<p>Well, once again I am writing this in a hurry, I'm sorry about that, but I have a swim meet to attend. <p>Also, I hope my fast post doesn't come across as cold and too straight forward, I'm really not that way, I do think it's great you are searching for answer, but I just don't like wasting time and I like getting to the point. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA

Anna:<p>By all means, keep getting straight to the point and never not say what you want to. <p>Actually, I have focused on the family (ha ha) for the past couple of years. I have done all that I can to try and make my family a family. Things have improved there quite a bit. I think there are many relationships in a family, me and my wife, me and the kids, wife and the kids, then all of us. Before there was NO all of us, it was me and the kids...and that was about it. Now there is a little all of us...and sometimes it is great. But there is still little me and my wife.<p>One of the problems is....my wife has NO dreams, NO goals, NO ambitions. When I said she grew up rather poor, and was engrained with "you can't have anything" attitude, I was not kidding. Neither of us are materialistic, this is a good thing, but if I had a billion dollars, there's nothing I could even buy her/set up for her that would make her happy. It's kinda weird. No, I'm not saying its all about money or money buys happiness, I'm just saying she is literally without dreams.<p>The house...funny you should ask. First off, this is NOT the dream house. And refering to the above, she has no dream. Since I have been 10 years old, and no doubt before, I have always wanted to build a log cabin in the middle of the woods. Well, that's what we are doing, except it is not exactly log, but it is in the middle of the woods. Is it her dream???? Well, she has no dream. Would she live there if I died? Nope. She couldn't. She couldn't take the driveway nor the remoteness. Is this something I am willing to compromise on for her? Frankly, no. Does she want to live there? Yes. Is she excited? Sorta yes.<p>Since we talk about nothing together, save the daily events, I usually bring up our relationship. Way too much I suspect...few times a week. So she knows that I feel the lack of a connection and bond...that I want an equal partner...someone that will talk to me...etc She feels this can not be her...and therefore she feels that she will not be living in this new house long. So, understandably, she has NOTHING to do with it. Is not interested in looking at carpets, talking about kitchen design, anything. <p>So, for me, the best part of building a dream house is to share the dream with someone. Now, you can copy my earlier statement about not willing to compromise this dream....I'm not willing to live in town...with neighbors on top of me...etc. <p>Yet, with the earlier OW, I was willing to give up everything. No house, no 44 acres of woods, nothing. (Land is cheap in this part of NY state) I found that to be amazing about me...that I was so willing to give up nearly everything (especially not living full time with my kids). But it was true. <p>So basically what you are suggesting is that I am not putting my wife high on that pedestal. I agree with that. <p>Could you put that person you just met at the grocery store high on your list he constantly disappointed you? What if you tried to do all you could for the family, plan something for the family to do or place to go, and then he just complained about one thing or another?<p>I totally agree with you...I do not place her where she belongs. In fact i will go one step further, I have little respect for her (in a big sense of the word). This is improving slightly, but it would sure help if something she did would encourage it. But I am not attracted to how she handles herself, how she parents (for the most part), what she says and how she acts. It is this very thing...what I call the lack of attraction to her as a person (I don't mean physcial...) that seems to prevent me from placing her on the pedestal she does indeed deserve.<p>Now also, in all of this, it is I who has "changed"...not her. She is and always has been exactly this way. She was a teacher...the kids ripped her apart...she ran from it. She was never one to stand up in a conversation and take a side and support it. She is more "weak". There's nothing more I'd love to see in her than some real spine and attitude.<p>But I realized a few years ago that I didn't like this...I wanted someone stronger, more ambitious, passionate. That's the best word to use...passion. She has none...I perhaps have to much. Not sexual (but there's those problems too) but just passion for life. For many things in life. If only I could find something she was passionate about....it would be such a wonderful start.<p>I am trying...and I am listening. I do agree I don't place her were she needs to be...yet I can't do this. It, to me, seems like a fundamental issue about who we are and fundamental differences. These things, I think, basically can't change. So then it seems you just have to decide to accept...to settle. I'm not very good at settling. I can do it for a spell, even a spell of 10 years if need be, but it sure isn't happiness.<p>Please keep the thoughts coming...I'm not trying to defend my position...I'm trying to explain my situation. I'm not easily offended...so throw it out there.<p>Thanks much!

Hi bp22,<p>First, I'm you, to an absolute T.
Second, your wife, is my XW to an absolute T.<p>This is NOT an overstatement. It is eerie how your personal discriptions match my XW and me.<p>Third, the only differences are that it is my XW who cheated (she's still with the OM and a marriage is in the works) and I don't care to live in rural areas.<p>As usual, Anna2000 is right on the mark.<p>You are in a fog concerning the OW. Your comments about being willing to give up everything you want to be with her is proof of this. All you can see is the OW. You are in a chemical haze. The statistics about relationships like the one you envision are dismal.
Check out this link:
http://www.wordscapes.net/affairs-facts.htm<p>I've found this thread very helpful concerning the fog:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=009754<p>Now, on to your wife and you. I really don't have an answer, but I am open to chatting with you about it. I understand your position. It's like living with a ghost, isn't it? Your wife is there, but not there.<p>Go to this link and I think you will find what you need to get started.
http://www.zenbear.com/personality_test/
You are a green.
Your wife is a blue.<p>I think that once you realize that your wife ticks differently and can understand how she ticks, you will be able to understand that she is motivated in a completely different way, a way that you do not currently see. (too bad I learned this stuff until way too late)<p>The two personalities are quite different, but I believe that they will help form a great combination if you two can learn to use your differences to your mutual advantage. Building a great team requires strong communication between different people.<p>Contact me at obfusc8ed@hotmail.com.<p>Kevin

Hi Kevin: Thanks for the pointers! I did the color test..and surprise, surprise I came up a blue! <p>But, I'd have to say after reading the descriptions...I am also very much a green. <p>I'd say I'm green, yet I care about people and can read them very well. Maybe its easiest to say I'm green, but not a nerd! (??) I guess my general concern for people pushed me into the Blue. <p>I would say, and I can be wrong...but I don't think my past experience with the OW is as critical in this as you all seem to think. Maybe I am missing the obvious though.<p>Before I met her, it became clear to me that my marriage was very empty. <p>I don't think marriage can be easy...but I do think it is possible to find a person that you really admire, really respect...and this allows you to set them high upon that pedestal. <p>Call it the love bank...you see what they do, who they are, and many deposits are made. Not so much for what they do for me directly, but more so in who they are overall.<p>To point to more fairy tales...Message in a Bottle. Is that kind of relationship not possible? The wife that died...Katherine...and Kevin Costners (Garret) committment and love to her. And the new woman? Is it all just pretend that such a connection can be made?<p>It's not that I want my wife to pay more attention to me...I guess I just wish she was more of an independent thread. I feel like I am the leader in our marriage...and I don't want that. I want someone to pull me in directions I wouldn't go on my own. I yearn for that...just once would be nice! <p>She has completed year 1 of RN school...and is now working in the local Hospital. It has made her a bit more confident...and this is very good. But it doesn't seem to have given her any increased motivation or passion. In fact, I might hear more fear and complaining (about studying) than I do positive comments. I can't tell though if she wanted to do this (return to school) because she feared being divorced and needing money OR because she truely wants to do it. If given the choice, I suspect she'd rather stay home all day.<p>My wife is a very nice person. She is tremendously honest...and as a Blue I value this. She is open, she is kind and considerate, she is thoughtful. I could become impotent and she could be hit on by every man alive...and she would not stray. There are many things about her that I think are wonderful...and clearly many traits that are much stronger (and better) than in the OW.<p>The OW...I can list a few fears. She did enjoy the attention of men...would it be a constant concern? There were health issues. I will say that I'm not sure if she was more interested in sex or me.<p>But what she did have, the OW, was that independent thread. She was her own woman and it seemed that she wanted to knot with me, to turn those two separate threads into one, then go back to two, etc.<p>For me it was not at all a sexual affair. In fact, I wouldn't use the word affair as much as I would a "realization of what is possible".<p>While many have told me I am indeed in the Fog, I guess I think I disagree. I don't think that any relationship will be perfect. I'm not willing to give up who I am. I mentioned before I was amazed at how I'd give up building my house. I knew very well that building the house would be somewhat painful, as my wife basically just doesn't care. My mom cares more about this house than my wife...and no matter how good our marriage was, she'd be that way. She just doesn't have the drive or ambition to care. In fact, she considers building the house far to painful...all those decisions!!! And that is the very point of building...to make your own decisions!<p>So, what to do? How can I build respect for her? How can I create some attraction to her? How can I ignore the hurt that comes with every failed attempt to bond and connect?<p>The odd thing about me...but good...I awake every morning (almost) with a hope in my soul that there is a chance. I feel somewhat renewed each morning...save those that I awake yearning for something more NOW!!<p>It seems to me, and I have told this to my wife, that there's nothing I can do at this point. It seems to me that she needs to somehow engage me, engage my soul, my mind. We discussed how I feel that she needs to "break the circle". I just need something to build up respect...something to kindle something in me.<p>Argh...

I'm glad you seem to like straight talk, bp22, because I'm not much good at any other kind. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>First, I'm going to see if I can get off on the wrong foot by saying that I don't believe you when you say that you were never attracted to your wife. I don't disbelieve you either, but as others here have already pointed out, you are under the influence of "the fog". That means not even you can trust your memories.<p>From the way you describe yourself and your situation, I'm guessing that you are capable of giving precedence to objective thought even when your feelings are at odds with your rational mind. That's good, because I suspect that you will need that faculty now.<p>Think about this: you surprised yourself with your willingness to give up everything for your OW. Does that sound healthy to you? Is it reasonable to so devalue your own goals and dreams? Can a long-term relationship really be built on that kind of profligacy? In "love bank" terms, it's like taking out a loan. The balance in the bank still looks good, but some day that note is going to come due...<p>Right now you feel that your marriage is a hopeless case, at least in the sense of its potential for love and happiness. Your feelings are supported by some rational arguments, particularly your observation that your wife "is and always has been exactly" the way she is. Straightforward extrapolation would seem to provide little basis for hope.<p>But the very essence of life is change. You have changed[/i], and you admit that your wife has changed as well, just not to the degree (or in the direction?) you might wish. What I suggest is that you start with the decision to stay together for the sake of the girls, accept that as a given, and then dedicate yourself to making the best of the situation.<p>By "making the best of the situation" I do not mean you should do what you have been trying to do for years. You should not "settle" for what you've got. You should not merely reconcile yourself to the status quo. You should admit to yourself that change is possible - even inevitable - and that just because everything isn't changing according to your plan doesn't mean it isn't changing for the better. If you can learn to broaden your perspective, you might surprise yourself.<p>I share Anna's concern that your perspective is egocentric. I don't know how much of an effort you have really made to see things from your wife's perspective, but if you can learn to see things that way (even if you don't necessarily share her perspective), you will have a very potent tool for building love and respect.<p>I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that every perspective is equally legitimate. The fact is, I believe some people are just plain wrong about some very important things. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] But I also believe it is possible to learn something of value from anyone's perspective, if you try hard enough. I hate to sound politically correct, but diversity often is good, and it's often a mistake to judge someone else by the same metric you apply to yourself (at least in many areas of life).<p>Alas, I know (from sad experience) that the mere fact of making an effort to see things from another person's perspective is not enough. When personality types differ significantly, which may be the case with you and your wife (as Kevin suggests), a little outside help can be of enormous value.<p>However, I am not convinced that contrasting personality types are the predominant factor here. There are a number of indications that FOO (Family of Origin) issues may be involved. I noticed, bp22, that you said very little about your wife's family background other than that "her parents were very poor". I'm sorry, but that does not explain a complete lack of dreams and goals and ambitions. It may be that your wife really does have dreams and goals and ambitions, but that you just never recognized them as such because they didn't look much like yours. (For example, maybe her dream is to live a quiet and undriven life. I'm pretty sure you could learn a valuable lesson or two from such a perspective, bp22.) Or it may be that your wife has snuffed out all her incipient or latent dreams because she has very little self-confidence or self-esteem. Or it may be...something else.<p>You will not have an equal partner in your wife, bp22, unless she steps up to the challenge. But neither will she have an equal partner in you unless you step up to the challenge. From where I sit, it doesn't appear that you have done so. For instance, it doesn't appear that you have really listened to your wife at much more than a superficial level. Don't mistake poor communication skills (at either end!) for anything deeper.<p>Bottom line, my advice for you is to stop trying to fall in love with your wife and start trying to understand her (without trying to evaluate her).<p>By the way, I suspect that your wife has been pulling you in directions you wouldn't go on your own. The evidence is there...

I wish I had found this site years ago...Thank you for your comments! I love to have "outsiders" suggest things to me. I love to talk to just about everyone and hear what they say....just like you said, you learn something from every conversation. It is all about perspective, and it is a blast to look at things from all sides.<p>I do believe my wife, as we all are, has been strongly engrained by her past. First off, we both grew up in a very strong "born again" christian family. We met at church when I was 7 or so...very good friends basically since 9. Remember, she's 4 years older...and I always was at least 4 years older than my age. That's probably part of my problem...I skipped so many things in my childhood.<p>Anyways, growing up, I was always the one to question the whole "religion" thing. I was the one in Sunday school that would talk about how cosmology and creation could indeed be the same thing. The Bible and science could agree. But then after a year of physics...I lost the ability to have faith in the unprovable, the unseeable, unpredicatable, and for me, the unnecessary. My wife still clings to her faith...and this is a source of aggrevation between us...although it is not, I believe, a root problem.<p>But so you can better understand, it is an issue. Also, I mentioned her parents were poor. Neither finished high school...she is one of 4 kids...and they have always lived at (or below) the poverty line. My wife was always the quiet type, basically always content, never one to stir up trouble (a good thing) or be motivated to achieve more (not so good).<p>You mention perhaps her goals are to live a quiet, easy, let it come to her life. That's great for some people I suppose...but it doesn't work for me. Maybe you call that egocentric, I suppose that it indeed is, but how am I supposed to be happy with a situation where I can't share my dreams or ambitions, or failures, with my wife? And more so, I don't get to share in her dreams, ambitions, and failures? Should I be happy to sit upon the couch and watch TV every night, or even every other night, and share in her dream lifestyle? That sounds pretty silly to me...and I am also certain that this sounds rather harsh. But, I don't sugar coat things I think...I just let 'em out.<p>You also mentioned that you suspect there was a time I was attracted to my wife. I do agree...my memories can't be trusted at this point. I suppose I must have been...although I think it was more a "happy with the way it was going" rather than a fundamental true finding of happiness. I listen to other people...whom all tell me we did not get along. My mother...my best man...other friends. My wife will say from day 1 our marriage was not good. Why did we stay together? A. It will get better...if only it got a tiny bit better every time I thought that. B. We are not the type to walk away from a relationship, let alone each other and the kids. C. Lack of realization on my part of just how bad it really was. I was busy with school, graduate school, work, etc. and had other places to dump my energy. That's not to say that we, or I, neglected each other. Although we'd both agree we were both happier when we were NOT together....Makes a whole lot of sense, eh?<p>Basically, what it seems to me, is that we married before I had any idea what I really wanted from life. I always thought I wanted a wife that wanted to stay home with the kids, who wanted the traditional "biblical" role...But that's not what I want, not at all. Yet that is more what she wants...She will say even today that it is my job to make the money, provide for the family, etc. And this would be fine...I have no problems with her not making money, etc. But I do have problems with her not being more involved, more strong, more driven, etc. She doesn't need to be a doctor to make deposits in my love bank...a simple gesture of wanting to accomplish something would be a big help! Returning to school, and doing very well, has been good for her (and us) somewhat. <p>I feel like, no I am, just rambling on and on. Sometimes it helps to write out the thoughts...I have done this many many times in the past. <p>We both agree, my wife and I, that neither of us would be attracted to the other today if we just met. What does that mean? To me, it sounds like we are saying we stay together for the kids...because there's nothing for either of us together. The kids are HUGE, they alone make it worthwhile for me...I can endure loneliness and pain, but I don't think I can endure inflicting it on others.<p>Then you say perhaps she is pulling me in a direction, yet I don't see it. I have thought about this today for quite some time...and I just don't see it. I do spend hours trying to talk to her and see things through her eyes. I believe I really do know what she wants...I just don't like that. I don't like the idea of watching TV as the highlight of my evening together. I don't like the idea of spending 1/3 of my life sleeping. <p>So many guys, it seems to me, just want to do their own thing. Be left alone. Have a wife and kids, but go off and do what they want with their buddies and leave the family behind. I am not like that. To me, it is all about family. In fact, I probably do way to much were I expect my family to be involved. I love the openness and togetherness. You don't build a house in the woods so you can hide from the world, you do it so you can focus on the togetherness of your family. At least that's my reason. It is a definite lifestyle choice...not for many.<p>Regarding the statistics on divorce, affairs, second marriages, etc. I am aware of them. I can only wonder what the people that were sampled are like. Are the the majority of Jerry Springer fans? I'm not putting anyone down, I haven't an elitist bone in me, and maybe it is just the Fog...but I don't see how anyone who thinks remotely rationally would ever divorce twice. I can understand drug, alcohol, abuse, etc. but if these things are not recognized early...then I just don't understand why these people are so blind.<p>And one last thing...I said it amazed me how I was willing to give up evrything for the OW. I think I chose the wrong words. <p>I was willing to give up my dream of building the log house specifically on the land I had purchased. I was not giving up the dream to build the log house. That was something that was to be shared with the OW...just on a different spot, sometime in the future. I was not going to give up my kids...the kids will always come first in my life (well, actually, I believe the relationship with the spouse is more important, but for me, my spouse would always agree to put the kids first in actuality) My relationship with the kids would have clearly been different with a different woman in my life, but in many ways, superior. I believe today, if we separated, the children would be better off in some ways...although not overall.<p>I have given up, or should I say put on hold, many things for my family. My career, my income, my doing things I like. I am not the type that will leave the family behind and go off and do things I want to do (backpacking, climbing, bike trips, etc) that they physcially can't do with me yet. So these things don't get done...maybe that's part of my problem...maybe I should do these things alone.<p>To me, there's nothign more important than the relationship with a spouse. Yet it seems that the spouse has to have something in common with you.<p>Believe it or not, this forum and your comments have helped me...maybe somehow they have given me increased hope. Yet it does feel so hopeless. One disappointment after another...yet you say I should lower my expectations.<p>Maybe the New Jersey Nets should be happy with getting to the finals and not feel bad for being swept by the most dominate team of the era? Maybe the Kings should be happy with taking the most dominate team in the era to overtime in Game 7? <p>Like I said before, I don't know what I am hoping to find...that "killer comment"...but your comments have been helpful! I will try open my mind even more to her and what she is looking for. But I think I know...I just don't like what I see. And to accept it for what it is, well, that's like the Nets being happy they played in the finals.<p>Here's a harsh one for ya...If you buy a car and you don't like it, not because it doesn't run well and it doesn't get you where you need to go, but becuase after you bought it you realized you really wanted something different...well, what do you do? My wife would instantly say, It's a car, it runs fine, it gets you were you want to go...just accept it. Me, I'd probably say the same thing, becuase it is only a car. LOL But when it comes to my marriage...my relationship with that one woman...I can't settle.<p>Life is awfully short...<p>Thanks much!

bp22,<p>I think you have been getting some good advice on this thread. I have only one short comment to add.<p>You describe yourself as a person who goes out and makes things happen. You describe your wife as somebody who waits for whatever happens. You seem to consider you W's attitude toward life to be inferiour to your own.<p>But...
You talk about "falling in love". As a physicist, would you say that a "falling" object matches your view of how a man should live? Falling is easy - mindless.<p>There have been numerous discussions of this on this forum, so I don't want to go over all the arguments, but I suggest that you think about the question "what is love?" Is it something that you "fall" into - are the passive recipient (victim) of - like somebody shot with Cupid's arrow, or is it a collection of actions resulting from a concious choice?<p>If you "fall", you have no control, no choice. I don't think that's what you want.<p>-AD

Your right AD...<p>But in a word, for me, it is respect.<p>In many others, it would be intrigued, attracted, desire to be with, fun to be with, captivated, admire, enjoy, equal.<p>And how can I control these things? <p>Thanks much!

I'd just like to share a few quotes the book by
M. Scott Peck, "The Road Less Traveled" that add to AbandonedDad's Comments: <p>
"Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly loves does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn't, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised. Conversely, it is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair at that time, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, "I feel like loving you, but I am not going to."....My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love. True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision."<p>"Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief hat "falling in love" is love or at least one of the manifestations of love...The first (problem) is that the experience of falling in love is specifically a sex-linked erotic experience. We do not fall in love with our children even though we love them very deeply. We do not fall in love with our friends of the same sex--unless we are homosexually oriented. We fall in love only when we are consciously or unconsciously sexually motivated. The second problem is that the experience of falling in love is invariably temporary. No matter whom we fall in love with, we sooner or later fall out of love if the relationship continues long enough."

And I don't think her view on life is inferior...it is different. It is not the same as mine. But it is not inferior. I really, honestly, don't think I am better than anyone else. I am not an elitist type. Not at all.<p>But, I am me...and just don't know how, actually have no clue, how I can develop the respect and feelings (see last post) for my wife that to me describes love.<p>Maybe others can show love to anyone, regardless of how they feel towards them. In fact, my wife often will say I show more love towards strangers than towards her. This is probably very true...as I haven't been so disappointed with them, nor do I feel "trapped" by them, nor do I live with them everyday...etc.<p>The only thing I can think of is just to lower my expectations and live. <p>But I can't do this and remain me...and certainly it brings no happiness. I'm not saying everything has to be my way, to the contrary, I'd love to have her pull the cart. Anywhere...just pull the cart!

So, then, in sumamry of the above quotes...<p>I can arrange a marriage for you, for anyone, randomly, and you simply choose, rather decide, to love that person. And there ya go?<p>Sorry, while I suppose that could be done, I think most likely you'd be missing out on the whole picture of what sharing life with someone could offer. <p>I think before a person can choose a mate, they must know who they are. The must be comfortable with themselves. And most importantly, and most difficult to do I think, is be totally honest with themselves. You can not be searching for something, you can not be unahppy with who you are, and most likely, I think you certainly can't be looking for a specific person.<p>Yet when you see them, talk to them, learn about them, watch them interact with the world, and want to share life with them. That to me is what I'd call "falling in love". And the respect that grows, the admiration, the desire to please them, to place them high on the pedestal above all else...to me, that is what love is. <p>But you can't choose to do this, it is not a simple decision. There must be impetous to feel this way...the respect, the admiration, etc.<p>There will always be things in a relationship you may not like, but that is what compromise is all about. But the act of compromising, it is so wonderful to do...to show your love, and to sense it given to you. <p>Personally, I disagree. Love for me is not a decision....and then just somethign you do. It's like respect and admiration...they are earned. Not by trying to impress or please, but just by being you. And someone who admires those traits and characteristics...they will see, the will feel, and they will love.<p>A decision to love...guess that means the love bank theory is hogwash? (No, I don't mean that quite so literally or strongly. I like the love bank theory. It's EXACTLY what I am trying to say...but for me, its not somethign done for me explicity, but just done by the other and admired by me.)<p>Thanks much!

BP, if you haven't read Peck's book, I recommend that you do so.<p>You say that your daughters are hugely important to you. Why do you love them? Is it because you have so many things in common with them, because they are ambitious and goal-driven?<p>I don't think so.<p>Is it because you are controlled by instinct, and cannot help but love them?<p>I don't think so.<p>I think that at some level you have chosen to love them.<p>No, feelings of love do not come because you make a "simple decision" to love. But love itself is primarily about what you do even when you don't feel like it! Love is what leads you to discipline a child even when it's going to hurt you more than it's going to hurt your child. Love is what causes you to haul yourself out of bed in the middle of the night and drive your child or your spouse to the hospital when all you really want to do is sleep. Love is what brings you to yet another excruciating recital because that's your kid up there on the stage. Love is about deciding to do something because it is important and it is right.<p>Harley's love bank concept is about building the feelings that we call love. The concept does not deal with love itself. It is just unfortunate that the word "love" is used in so many different ways.<p>But while I disagree with you that love is something that must (or even can) be earned, I do agree that respect and admiration must be earned. However, one of the things that has struck me about your description of your wife is that you have explained many ways in which she has earned respect and admiration. I am left wondering why she hasn't gotten it.<p>I suspect that your expectations have much to do with it. You expect your wife to be more like you, which if you think about it is pretty pointless. What good would it do me to be married to myself? I would be better off with someone who is not merely compatible but who is also complementary; someone who would bring out the best in me, who would cause me to grow in ways that I probably ignore if left to my own devices. Someone who it would take a lifetime to get to know so that there was always room for more surprises and more growth.<p>You have already detailed many ways in which you and your wife are compatible, along with many ways in which you and your wife are complementary. That looks to me like a pretty sound basis for a marriage.<p>Please don't get me wrong: I do not mean to dismiss or discount your pain. There is enough resonance between your account and my own experience that I believe I understand your pain very well indeed. And despite everything I have said about the potential for your marriage, I don't think that pain is going to go away unless both you and your wife are willing to meet each other half way. If there are FOO issues involved, there will be a lot of resistance to that. I see some indications that your wife may need some outside help. Maybe you do too. But there are lots of experiments you could try right away (if you haven't already).<p>You said "Then you say perhaps she is pulling me in a direction, yet I don't see it. I have thought about this today for quite some time...and I just don't see it. I do spend hours trying to talk to her and see things through her eyes. I believe I really do know what she wants...I just don't like that. I don't like the idea of watching TV as the highlight of my evening together. I don't like the idea of spending 1/3 of my life sleeping."<p>OK, here's an example of her pulling you in a different direction (and I'm pretty sure you're not going to like it): you tried to tell your wife what you longed for in your relationship, and she responded "You need Jesus". You called that a turning point. Why was it a turning point? Did you discuss her observation and the reasons for it? Or did you perceive her comment as a criticism and an indication that she was not hearing what you had to say? Even if that perception was accurate, it was not helpful.<p>When you talk to your wife, are you really trying to see things through her eyes, or are you merely trying to construct a model of your wife's emotions and thought processes so that you can better manipulate the conversation and/or feel more secure in your understanding of your position?<p>You talk about compromise, but have you actually tried it? Maybe you don't like the idea of watching TV as the "highlight" of your evening. Maybe you would rather have a deep philosophical discussion, but your wife would rather watch TV. OK, so why not go ahead and watch TV (accepting the challenge of learning to relax a bit) and then discuss what you watched afterwards? I don't think I have ever watched a TV show that didn't leave plenty of openings for interesting discussion. If your wife isn't particularly articulate, then this will be a challenge to her, but helping her learn to express herself better will be a challenge to you. And you seem to be the kind of guy that welcomes challenges.<p>If your wife is completely unwilling to compromise in any way, then I would strongly urge you to try to get your wife into counseling of some sort. People without a secure sense of self are likely to have difficulty distinguishing between making compromises and compromising themselves, and until they are able to learn the difference it is impossible to build a healthy relationship with them.<p>Of course, your own position seems a bit rigid itself. You may not like the idea of spending 1/3 of your life sleeping, but that's 8 hours of sleep a night, which is considered healthy.

bp,<p>I would like to add a few thoughts to the things I've read. You say one of the reasons you aren't attracted to your wife is because she's not confident and carries herself poorly. <p>Often the people we love can tear us down the most with small inuendos and words that criticize, The words loved ones use can build us up and give us more confidence than we ever have or tear us apart. What I'm getting at is this...Have you considered your criticims, your affair, and your approach could possibly be making her less confident than more?<p>As I've grown I think my confidence could have gone one way or the other...When I was a teenager, I had a job in a restaurant. I remember my boss as being very critical of everyone. I was young and didn't have as much confidence in my working abilities as I do now. He would tell me things like, "You need to think." "You just don't think." This was constant. Eventually as I look back I saw through the two years of working there that my confidence got lower at work than better. I made more and more mistakes on my job than less. He knew exactly how to belittle me and make me feel dumb. Maybe not intentionally and perhaps he wanted more out of me but his approach was counter-productive to say the least. The more I messed up, the more he criticized. The more he thought that I was an air head, the more I acted like an air head.<p>After highschool, I got an office job. I was so concerned about doing my job well. Fortunately for me, I had this awesome boss that praised me for my hard work and every time I did a good job she let me know. Eventually, I outgrew my potential with the company and moved to another job. I had a three day job with a boss that started trying to belittle me. I immediately saw through this and found another job right away. <p>My next boss was once again awesome. The praise and the confidence she had in me just boost my confidence in myself. The more she praised, the more confident I got in my abilities. She would tell her boss how I was the sharpest person there even though I had the least experience. I eventually had a main part in the migration of new software to our company...<p>So, again, perhaps the constant critisism of your wife and your relationship is causing a negative reaction in your wife. <p>Okay, here's another thought. If you don't give 100% to your marriage, if your wife thinks eventually you will leave her, if you have broken her down with this affair, then why should she give you 100%...<p>On your comment regarding giving every thing up for the OW. Perhaps you would have gave everything up for her, but again your relationship was new. When you first married your wife you did the same thing then. You were determined to marry her at any cost. Even though people told you other wise, you didn't listen, you did what you wanted to do...<p>I think you tend to jump into the fire and then think about the burn later. Maybe that's the feeler in you...<p>This jumping seems to be with your wife, with the OW, with everything you do.<p>Here's something for you to think about. Often a difference of personalities in a marriage cause the scales to balance equally. If you have too much of the same personalities you could go in directions that could cause a major negative blast. Like too much powder in dynamite when you only wanted a small effect. It'll blow the whole building instead of one wall...<p>A friend of mine is divorcing mainly because her husband wants someone more like him. He has trouble controlling money, he loves to spend wildly, he loves to gamble and walk a little on the wild side. He did this with her, but never felt like he could really "let loose". The counselors have told her that if he finds her, look out, more than likely they will end up destroying each other because that balance is not equal. It's all too much on the side of carelessness...<p>Well, I've typed way more than intended. Hope these thoughts help.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

BP22-<p>First, I have to say I completely agree with Anna2000. I'm absolutely sure that the way you talk to your wife about things (just by how you express yourself in your posts) is not helping her self-esteem at all. If it was already low to begin with, she will never have confidence in herself.<p>Second, I LOVE how you keep saying you have NO respect for your wife. This will probably come as a "shock" to you, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a whole lot for you either! I can totally understand how your feelings change with not feeling respect for someone. I had more respect for my H than anyone I've ever known. Now I have almost none. Can you guess why? I find it difficult to have respect for someone who doesn't have enough guts to work on his M, decides to take care of his own needs with someone else before ending the previous relationship, then comes back and puts all the blame on "doing it for the kids".<p>Now, that being said, and I'm not sure if you will have gotten this far, I do think you have shown A LOT of iniative in trying to find a solution. IMHO, that is half of the battle right there. I think maybe your wife also needs some kind of reason to start working on the relationship. She may see it as nothing she does try (i.e. starting school) seems to satisfy you. Thus, she has already given up on the relationship, and is just staying for the kids. Maybe she has decided she just doesn't want a relationship with you. She needs to get to the point where you are, and start trying even though she "doesn't feel like" doing it. Have you thought about showing your W this website? Maybe she could find someone here who can inspire her to try.<p>I hope everything works out!<p>Keep Smiling [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

First, thanks again to all you have replied! It has been wonderful to hear and ponder your thoughts. I indeed did tell my wife all about this website and conversations last night. I suggested she come and either contribute to the thread or have her own. I can think of nothing more useful for her.<p>Let me address some of the recent comments. I do not "respond" to these as if we are in a debate, rather just share my thoughts to perhaps better explain me and my situation.<p>GnomeDePlume, Kevin I think...I agree with you totally! I think the ideal marriage is indeed complementary. Exactly as you said...someone that brings out the best in you, makes you (for some reason) strive for more. A carbon copy of me would be very boring. <p>Yet what is complementary? I don't drink. Should I marry a drunk? I am ambitious...should I marry a couch potato? I am curious about everything and love to learn...should I marry a high school dropout that is satisified with the cartoon network? <p>No, my wife is none of those things...LOL. And yes, I'm sure that sounds a little harsh or arrogant. I only write that to make a point...I agree. But common ground must be had. When there's nothing in common to enjoy together (take away the kids), then why are you together???<p>You mention "someone it would take a lifetime to get to know" I agree so much with that. Perhaps that's one of our problems...I have had no life with my wife in it (childhood friends since about 6). So there's nothing about her I don't know. And since she hasn't pursued a strong independent thread...there is nothing new to share, nothing new to learn. She has never asked me to explain anything I do (I work in astronomy...build instruments for telescopes around the world).<p>Last night I tried to talk to ask her if she respects me. Why? She listed a few things (provide for the family, love me work, etc.) yet she never has asked me what I do...she has no clue...no interest. She'd say "I can't understand it" Yet I just went to a 5th grade class last week and explained it rather well to them...I think my wife could follow...if she cared.<p>On the other hand, I will ask her all sorts of medical related questions. All things medical is something of a hobby to me...totally fascinated with life and the human body...nothing cooler than the brain here on Earth. LOL Anyways, I ask questions...yet seem to get this reply back which always ends up with "I don't know". So there's never an attempt made to learn the answer...just I don't know...and watch the show. LOL<p>Contrary to me not liking to sit in front of the boob tube and vegetate, I do it frequently. There's a difference between relaxing and mindlessness. If you know me, you'd be surprised at how relaxed I am. Then again, I am relaxed by building the house...<p>I do agree...my wife needs to get to the point I am at and really truly search for ways to improve our situation. She'll say, as she did last night, "I'm too busy" because of school. A few months ago, I asked her a question..."Don't answer now, maybe in a few days...but do you think that you can love someone based on history together, comfort, and situation? And is that different than love based on respect, admiration, etc? And what do you think you feel for me?"<p>Well, I did ask the question the night she was studying for a final...so I didn't expect an answer soon. A few days later I asked her...and she replied..."I remember thinking about what you asked, but now I can't remember the question." <p>Yet our marriage troubles are ALL my fault. I'm 95% to blame she says...<p>She says I think way too much...probably true. Last night she said "Why should I think about it? It is like wallowing around in pity or helplessness" <p>Anna...without a doubt, the first 10 years of marriage were horrendous for both of us. Without a doubt, my words to my wife did far more to tear her down than build her up. I'm sure of that. This will sound stupid, and I have since learn it makes sense only to me, and therefore is wrong, but I am much "harsher" on those I care about than those I don't. I would indeed comment on things I thought were silly, or stupid, or whatever. So, without a doubt, a "weak" person couldn't take it.
But a few years ago, I did learn. And things are different now. While I probably don't hand out the compliments left and right, I don't say my thoughts as I once did. <p>I guess to me it all goes back to the same thing...how do you compliment something you don't appreciate or think is worth complimenting? Argh....it is such a vicious circle.<p>I know so many people just say things to make others happy...to make them feel good...true or not. And this I guess is a OK to a point...but it is like never telling your child NO...then someday someone does...and BAM...huge problems. Well, it's different...but it is similar...somehow.<p>You comment that I appear to be a jumper? That's interesting...I have done I'd say one thing in my life that was a rather quick decision...and that was the OW. Otherwise, I'll labor over decisions for what seems an eternity. Curious what makes you say that actually...<p>And for all those divorces that occur due to alcohol, drugs, gambling, abuse, etc...How nice it must be to be able to point to such a blatantly obvious life-destructive issue and say "Fix it or forget it". Don't mean to sound harsh there...just sometimes it is so clear. Although I'm certain no less painful.<p>And Jen...I am not easily offended...so blast away. Perhaps you didn't read my earlier posts...I was indeed trying to work on my marriage for about a year (not an eternity mind you) before the OW ever appeared. In fact, I met the OW when I was trying to talk to people about my wife and I, getting there opinions of what might be the issue. If only I had come here first....but instead I ended up in chat rooms. I probably chatted with about 80 people, all married, men and woman, but mostly woman, to try and understand what might be wrong. Many good tips were given...similar to what has been said here. Anyways, that is how I met the OW. No, it doesn't make it right.<p>And believe it or not, both my wife and I agree, that if the OW didn't happen, our marriage would be much worse than it is now...it would be like it was before. I think people get to a point where they are so closed off to each other, so committed to never leaving, not even consider it, yet so closed to each other, there's a complete and total stagnicity (is that a word?) And I don't think anythign simple will ever bring them out of it. All the talking and counseling in the universe won't help, at least it wouldn't have made a difference to my wife and I, and we BOTH say this.
So now, again, it doesn't make it right. But be careful when you say "how a man goes off to satisfy his own needs without trying, then only to return and blame the kids". <p>I give blame in this whole thing only to one person. ME. Not my wife, not the OW, not my parents, not some etheral diety, and certainly not my kids. ME. I made a choice, a couple of them, and then I found me...was honest with myself...and here I am.<p>OK, so the upshot of this for me over the past couple of days is:<p>1. I will not be leaving my marriage anytime soon.
2. People all think different things about everything it seems, but especially when it comes to relationships and love.
3. I have no clue what I can do to make ME feel different about my wife.<p>Comments comments comments...please keep them coming! Thanks so much!
Bruce (I'm Bruce...my wife is Mary)

<p>[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by bp22:
<strong>GnomeDePlume, Kevin I think...I agree with you totally! I think the ideal marriage is indeed complementary. Exactly as you said...someone that brings out the best in you, makes you (for some reason) strive for more. A carbon copy of me would be very boring. <p>Yet what is complementary? I don't drink. Should I marry a drunk? I am ambitious...should I marry a couch potato? I am curious about everything and love to learn...should I marry a high school dropout that is satisified with the cartoon network?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Would a drunk bring out the best in you? Would a couch potato? "Complementary" means more than "contrasting".<p>As for the high school dropout, don't confuse intelligence or education with wisdom. Although I doubt the Cartoon Network is the place to find any of those things...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>You mention "someone it would take a lifetime to get to know" I agree so much with that. Perhaps that's one of our problems...I have had no life with my wife in it (childhood friends since about 6). So there's nothing about her I don't know. And since she hasn't pursued a strong independent thread...there is nothing new to share, nothing new to learn.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There's nothing about your wife you don't know? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are talking about her personal history. I find it impossible to believe that there are not many things about your wife that you don't know. Do you know everything about yourself? I don't think so. So how could you know everything about someone else?<p>Frankly, Bruce, I think that you and your wife need help. Both of you. You are too close to your situation to see things clearly, and based on the way you have dealt with each other in the past, I suspect that you are the last person who could help your wife find a way to improve herself or your marriage.<p>[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: GnomeDePlume ]</p>