Greetings to all...<p>I am currently undergoing another thread...Father/Husband Needs Help...see it below or above...<p>In summary, I'm 32, married, male, 3 kids, trying to find a way to build my marriage...not rebuild...it has never been good...married 12 years this July...at age 20 for me, 24 for wife...dated only her since age 14...choose her at age 12.<p>Anyways...is it not possible to have a friendly divorce? Is it not possible for two people to realize that a mistake was made, most likely in youth? Is it not possible for both people to agree on this and then not have all the hurt, turmoil, guilt, trauma, etc?<p>Can't people accept that their friendship should be that, a friendship, but maybe not marriage material?<p>Sure, it's possible...but why is it not more common? Why do people always feel so bitter? <p>Do they not realize this is coming? Are people so blind that they don't realize there spouse is so unhappy? Are people always so stunned when there spouse cheats? Is it as if the marriage was wonderful...and suddenly wham? <p>I can't believe that. How can a spouse think all is going well and BAM?<p>Comments...vents...let 'em rip. As one who married and completely KNEW I'd never have marriage problems...well...here I am. Most interested in hearing what other people think...<p>Here's one for ya: Can people divorce and then still do things as a family? Could you go on family trips say? The spouses divorce, not the family...no? <p>Maybe I live in fairytale land in all my life. LOL<p>Thanks much!

And here's one more...<p>The way I feel today, if we were to divorce, I'd be extremely happy to see my wife meet a man than she loved and loved her. I think today that would be great...and I'd wouldn't have any problems with it. Now, this guy around my kids 50% of the time...well...another story. But for her, I'd be jubilated.<p>Is that really goofy?

Yes, one spouse can be so blind that they never see it coming.<p>There is actually a book called Dumped which describes this in great detail, because basically that's what happens.<p>Usually if both parties see the end of the marriage coming they opt for divorce instead of one party having an affair and betraying the other. Once the betrayal happens the betrayed spouse can't really trust or be friends with the other spouse. I mean would you still be friends with someone who betrayed you? I mean honestly, someone who made the ultimate betrayal.<p>That's why you really can't divorce as friends when there has been an affair. <p>Also, as in my case, my ExH was the WH and he has so many issues that he needs to but hasn't dealt with that the "fog" makes him not see things clearly like normal people would, and you can't deal straight forwardly with someone like that.<p>I've tried.<p>That's my 2 cents. K

It seems to me, and this is my opinion, that if someone is that blind to problems in a marriage, that is part of the problem. Now, if someone just has itchy fingers (or something else) then that's different. but if there are fundamental problems... I don't know...I had them for years...I knew it...I kept saying "it will get better" and unfortuately the "the kids will give us something in common..." Ouch.

if X had told me that he wasnt happy in our marriage & we both tried to work out the problems & it didnt work then maybe we could have parted friendly. But X had A first then said he wasnt happy in our marriage. X hit 42 and went wild he is still with MOW & with the way X is acting with angry I believe he is still not happy. <p>W-48 H-42
M-17
C-13,28, 7 GD
D-5-23-02<p>MOW-29
M-10
C-3 under 10
D-this month

Yes, bp, I believe it's possible to be so "blind" as to not know the problems in M are bad enough for one to want "out" either through A or Div.<p>That was the case in our M. I KNEW things "weren't right." I was a big part of the problem (SF wasn't what it should have been - my fault) <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>Having said that, HOWEVER, I would have liked it better if my H would have TALKED TO ME, instead of keeping it all bottled up inside, ACTING like everything was perfectly ok, then BAM, disappearing out the door one day like a theif in the night.<p>I DRUG him to counseling once, about 6 years ago, when I KNEW we weren't "good" and I tried to get us help. He sat there, basically said he didn't know what I was talking about, we left and nothing changed. Sooooooo, on we went in our basically, boring, UNhappy existence, until someone else came into his life, and he suddenly figured out he "had an out." Not fair.<p>Had I known about MB, I believe we could have "fixed" what was wrong with our M. Basically, I beleive we simply did not know how to meet each others' EN's, so we grew unhappy and apart from each other. It was textbook. I understand a lot more about that now, and I wish he wanted to learn!<p>As far as it being a "friendly" divorce, I don't think it can be, given the nature of the beast. Divorce TEARS APART something that was "joined." However, I have done my best to keep a friendly face on it, in order to avoid major damage, so that if there's ever a chance at recovery in the future, we haven't injured each other too much in the process.<p>For your situation, I'm sorry you feel there's nothing there to salvage. I personally don't believe this, and I believe we CAN make a happy M with just about anyone, if we're willing to do the work, and meet thier EN's. For the sake of your children, I wish you were willing to consider hanging in and trying.....but that's just my .02. <p>I respect that you have thought this through carefully, and you are doing what you feel you MUST do.<p>May God Bless,

I am hanging in there...although it usually seems hopeless. They key word is usually...every now and then, maybe once a month, there's a sign of hope. <p>I do not understand why people keep quiet if they are miserable. So many people live in denial I think, it sure is easy. <p>I don't think people can really be happy, fundamentally happy, "with just about anyone". Sure, you can make it civil, maybe even fun sometimes, but to be truely fundamentally happy...I don't think that is easy. In fact, I think it is extremely rare.<p>You can bend of backwards to meet someones needs, but if you are trying to do this, I think there's something wrong. It's one thing to try for a spell, even years, maybe even a decade, but that's not true happiness...least not for me.<p>Marriage will always be work...but it should ne natural work.<p>Oh well...I do have high expectations...Thanks much!

Maybe - just maybe - two people could separate and remain friends (not just remain friendly, but actually remain friends) if they never really believed in marriage in the first place, and if they "got married" just because it was "the thing to do" or because having a "fancy wedding" seemed like it would be fun. I can't rule out that possibility. But I'm still skeptical. Certainly the statistics show that it doesn't happen often.<p>I suspect that it's more common for a couple to renew their friendship after repentance and forgiveness. For example, one spouse leaves, and the other moves on and remarries; the first spouse realizes what a mistake (s)he has made, and requests and receives forgiveness. Thus the friendship is restored, but not the marriage.<p>The fundamental problem with the idea of separating as friends is the matter of betrayal. When you marry (assuming it is not a sham marriage where the vows are for "as long as we both shall love" instead of "as long as we both shall live", and where "love" is defined as a hormonal rush), you make vows. When you divorce you break them, and most likely it is after a long period of broken trust and broken faith.<p>That's not the "stuff" of which friendship is made.<p>To me, the idea that "we were too young to understand what we were doing" is just a cop-out. We are never old enough to really understand what we are doing, or to know what we are getting into. That is precisely why the traditional marriage vows explicitly detail the "no matter what" aspects of marriage. In essence, we are saying "I don't know what is going to happen to us, and I don't know how we are going to grow and change, but I want you and everyone here to know that I will always make you a top priority in my life."<p>Personally, I do not believe in "incompatibility". I think the "natural work" you mention, Bruce, is the sort of work Harley describes. What makes it "natural" is not some easily-manipulated illusion of "compatibility", but is instead the fact that both partners are working to meet each other's needs. The challenge of being stretched into becoming (more) compatible is a large part of what makes marriage worthwhile.<p>But it is extremely difficult to make a marriage work when your partner isn't doing his or her part. That failure is a betrayal of sorts. It may be intentional, out of selfishness; or it may be unintentional, out of ignorance or denial. Whatever the cause, the betrayal is real; but I think the appropriate response cannot be made until that cause is understood.<p>I know of no better way to achieve that understanding than to try your hardest to make your marriage work. And by "trying hard" I don't mean merely expending time and emotional energy. I can blister my hands and wear myself out trying to drill a hole with a hammer, but no matter how hard I "try", the hammer is still the wrong tool for the job.<p>Everything you have described in your situation so far, Bruce, suggests to me that you are using the wrong tools.<p>Oh, and about that "true happiness" you mentioned, Bruce. It doesn't come from being with the "right person". It comes from being the right person. It comes from within. I don't think I have ever been happier than I am today, despite what I am going through. (One of the oddest lessons I have learned through all this is that it is possible to be happy even in the midst of intense pain.) This happiness comes from knowing that I am the person God wants me to be. Any other kind of happiness is ephemeral and dependent on circumstances. (I'm afraid you'll have to translate that God bit into something more suited to your current spiritual understanding.)<p>Believe me, Bruce, I am not trying to tell you to be content with what you've got. That kind of passivity is just a different kind of cop-out than blowing off your marriage entirely. You need to do something.<p>Try to make it the right thing. For the sake of everyone in your family, including yourself.

Gnome, once again, I totally agree. As you said before, it is the "complementaryness" that makes a great mate. And as you have just said, true happiness is being happy with you. Someone else can not do this for you, you must. Someone else can complement you, pull you in those different directions, stretch you in ways, and share the journey of life with you.<p>I guess this is summarized, to me, when I say "respect". It is not probably not the common use of the word, and probably not correct, yet it is what I mean. I suppose I should change my incorrect definition.<p>And I really like what you say about a real marriage...a real committment for life. But in youth, people don't know who they are (I didn't at least), and when people grow...they need to grow together. Not the same way necessarily, but together, else they will grow apart. <p>Yet I do differ I think on just how this can happen. Although you do say if one partner is not trying as much as required, it won't work well...perhaps the same thing as I am saying. <p>Perhaps you can say everyone is compatible, they are just not trying hard enough. Muslims and Jews can live side by side, happily, it happens everyday. But only in some places...in others...well, it is all too clear.<p>But we certainly agree that living unhappily is not the thing to do. Something must be DONE. And yes, most certainly I am not the person who can encourage my wife to think about our situation. And certainly, without doubt, I can be encourage to think differently too.<p>Life is all about perspective...it is amazing how people will see the same thing differently...how you will see the same thing differently at different times. <p>Sometimes though people just want different things...no one is right, or wrong (well, sometimes they are), but they just want different things. And without what I call the "respect", better called the love and committment, the complete absolute committment...there's no chance. It is different than settling....but only if both people are do all they can.<p>Thanks again Kevin...much appreciated.<p>Did have a horrible night last night...my heart was ripped out yet again...Geez.

I believe the reason that 'friendly' divorces are so rare is that because divorce destroys and strains the very fiber of any relationship with that person. If you are divorcing, it is because you were not made happy by that person and his/her behavior. Meaning " *YOU* have failed me." Meaning that you are not adequate in my eyes. <p>Also, when children are involved, as an opposing spouse in the custody/support issues, you are screwing with my relationship and accessibility to the people I love most in the world. <p>When you divorce me, you mess with my self-esteem (regardless of any actions on the part of either of us)--you are telling me I'm not good enough for you. AND you are trying to take my children away from me. Neither of which is gonna make me love you more.<p>That's my 2 pennies.

To me, it is not about being "good enough"...it's about, in my words, compatibility, wanting to be together, enjoying each other, sharing life together. If that doesn't happen...and both agree...why must it be a "I'm not good enough for you" atttitude? Clearly it is the most typical and human nature, but why not acknowledge the problems, the lack of desire to be together, and see it for what it is?<p>I guess people are just so insecure that they take it personally...which obviously it "is"...but it, seems to me, to be somewhat different.<p>What about the idea of doing things together, as a family, Ex and the kids, after divorce? Like a trip, vacation, etc? Not at all possible?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by bp22:
<strong>What about the idea of doing things together, as a family, Ex and the kids, after divorce? Like a trip, vacation, etc? Not at all possible?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My x didn't want to do that when we were still married. It's not likely that she'd want that now that we're divorced.<p>I wouldn't be interested even if she were to suggest it. It's not really my idea of a vacation to spend time with someone who (figuratively, of course) cut my throat and left me for dead.<p>[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: o2bsane ]</p>

bp22,<p>I don't post much, but really wanted to on this one. I am going to be going through a D myself. Have made the decision, just waiting for a couple of things to happen first. My highest wish is that we (my H and I) can D and still be friends. Not close friends. Just friends that work together for the sake of children, civility, and each other. I no longer love this man and think it he needs to be set free to find someone who will love him. Truly love him for all of who and what he is. <p>There is a good book that talks about this, actually a couple of them. "The Good Divorce, Keeping your family together when you marriage falls apart" and "Coming Apart". These will give you hope that it CAN be done. Some couples do manage it. Yes, they have holidays and birthdays together. They even vacation together. It takes a lot of strength by the couple, but is possible if the two of you want it to be. Hopefully your spouse will be willing to try.<p>Good Luck!!<p>TFS [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

bp22,<p>Just read some more of the thread and wanted to add something.<p>
"I'd be extremely happy to see my wife meet a man than she loved and loved her. I think today that would be great...and I'd wouldn't have any problems with it"<p>I could have said this!! Except it would have said my H. If you met and liked her bf, would that make it easier for him to spend time with your kids?<p>"To me, it is not about being "good enough"...it's about, in my words, compatibility, wanting to be together, enjoying each other, sharing life together."<p>I believe compatibility to be critical to the future of a relationship. It means that you two do not have as far to go to meet each other's needs. It means there is more of a naturalness to your union. It makes the R easier. Differences in certain areas turn into chasms through the years. There is no such thing a making a truly loving, giving, sharing, totally soul bonding relationship with just anyone! In fact, I think the "right" person for us comes around only once or twice in our lifetime...if we are lucky.<p>
GIC,
"I mean would you still be friends with someone who betrayed you? I mean honestly, someone who made the ultimate betraya"<p>Yes, I could and can. My ExH is married to his.
While I'll never agree with "how" he came to be with her, he did and I can't change that. The only thing I can chang is ME and how I react to it.<p>TFS

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>. If that doesn't happen...and both agree...why must it be a "I'm not good enough for you" atttitude? <hr></blockquote><p>I actually meant that it comes down to "YOU'RE not good enough for ME"--and by that I mean that 'your' (whoever the spouse is) is incapable of meeting my needs well enough to keep me happy.<p>The reason it comes down to this is because divorce is rejection. Plain and simple. You reject your life with that person, ergo, you reject that person. That goes to the core of self-worth for the parties--I'm not important enough for you to meet my needs and you are not capable of making me happy. It affects the self-esteem of both parties.

FS:<p>In your first post you said you are going thru a divorce and then in your second you say your exH is already remarried? How's that work?<p>
Wouldn't it be a wee bit confusing to your kids if you continue to play the happy family? And then you each go back to your GF/BF? My parents tried to do the friendly divorce thing all it did was confuse us kids so they stopped it. They were civil with each other but they didn't do the fake family thing.<p>I guess if both individuals want the divorce and there is no infidelity/abuse involved there might a friendly divorce. Otherwise why would you want to be friends with someone who treated you badly.
My opinion of the whole friendly divorce thing is that the one iniates the divorce doesn't have to feel guilty about ending the marriage and to show how to make divorce seem like a normal and natural thing.
[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: KalGrl ]<p>[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: KalGrl ]</p>

You misunderstood. My ExH and I divorced many, many years ago. 26 to be exact. My H and I are still M and living together. <p>Why would two adults who shared many years and children want to remain friends? Why not?? You are probably a lot younger than I am. I see no reason why my H and I shouldn't remain friends. We both will always wish the other the very best in life. There has been no horrible things done to one another, just a gradual growing apart through the years. I know of an older couple personally who act in this manner with one another. They are both remarried now, but still do some functions all together...as extended family. It works well for them. Why do you think that people need to dislike someone that they no longer want to be married to?<p>TFS

FS,<p>I don't dislike my x, I just don't want to be friends with him. He's not anyone I would be attracted as a person if he weren't my x. And after years of him telling me that every bit of mischief my d gets up to is my fault thru poor parenting, why would I want to be friends with him.<p>Divorce usually brings out the very worst in people--although I'm sure there are some exceptions. But especially where there are kids involved, divorce usually turns into a no-holds barred brawl over kids, money, property.<p>O2b,
I forgot to say "Amen". my x always told me if I wanted ot go on vacation to take the kids and let him know when I would be back. Hence, he is the x.

First off, TFS, it sounds like we might think similarly. Divorce doesn't necessarily mean there was an affair, or abuse, or hatred. And when you boil it all down, it is TRUE, that divorce happens when one spouse is not meeting the needs of another. Call it what you want, that is a true statement. Although many here seem to think that anyone can meet the needs of any other...or more or less...but I don't believe that. Talk about a "fake marriage" or "fake family". Wow.<p>I think SO many people stay married and have a fake family. They pretend, they live in denial, they have affairs, they spend more time with their friends and without family, etc. But what is that? Is that better for the kids?<p>I do think that if the spouses divorced and both moved in with new mates, and tried to maintain a "family", that would be very awkward indeed. Not sure if it is better or worse for the kids in the end, all depends on how it is handled. First off, I don't agree with living together quickly after a divorce. Living together in general, personal I think it is a good thing. But to divorce and move in with someone, with kids involved, THAT is a nasty thing. I know a few that have done it...I know there kids...I can't hold them (the kids) responsible for why they act like they do.<p>When I married at 20, 12 years ago, I KNEW I'd never have marriage problems. I suppose everyone does...but my story is a little different at least. (Read Father/Husband Needs Hel p thread)<p>And I don't understand why everyone makes divorce so bitter. I work with a guy who is completely consumed by his divorce. Completely. For over 15 years I think now...and still eats at his guts...literally. <p>I just don't understand how people can be so "blind" as to not see problems...to feel them...to sense them. For years, all I ever heard about marriage were "jokes" from the family at picnics and whatever...you know the usual spouse jokes...and I guess maybe I thought that was just how it is supposed to be. HA! Hogwash. All this talk about "choosing to love" and stuff. I guess if it works for you, good! And if you feel better believing in Jesus...good! Harsh statements...indeed. They are not intended at anyone specific, just in general.<p>So, there's a difference I think. You can keep you marriage together, you can make it OK, you can enjoy some life with your family as a unit (I cling to that now!). Or you can really be happy, fundamentally happy. And married to someone that you fundamentally love, respect, and truely cherish...someone that truely melds with your soul. I believe in that. Problem is, it requires huge amounts of patience...and most don't have it. I wish I knew at 14 what I knew now...I'd be a single guy, no doubt a pretty big NERD, and no doubt very much alone...even more so than now. So, on second thought...maybe I'm better off with my crappy marriage and 3 wonderful kids. And you know that one time a month, for a fleeting few minutes, when your family feels like a family? When Mom (in my case...Dad in others) isn't *****ing at the kids, the kids are behaving, and there's that moment of togetherness? I cling to those moments now, at least for that part of my life. <p>I'll stop rambling now... Thanks much!

One more thing....<p>Why can't people get past the self-esteem thing? Why is it that they feel any confrontation, any disagreement, anything is a personal attack and they get all bent out of shape?<p>Do you care that I like lime green paint on my house and you don't? (No, its stained wood...)<p>Do you agree with everything someone else does? <p>Then why do you expect someone, ie your spouse, to agree with everything you do and want?<p>It DOESN'T make you wrong...it's just different. And should someone feel bad about this? I think not.<p>Someone else said it, and clearly it is true, life is a journey of change. Constant change. And two people change differently. And unless they have that true love, true connection and bond, respect, etc. these changes may lead them to widely different paths. And as TFS said, maybe then it is best to let them go.<p>During my "big event" of two years ago, I spoke considerably with a friend via email. An fellow 30 years older than I, divorced twice, married for the third time...I called him the Oracle, for his words were always well thought, and experienced, although maybe not always in agreement with mine.<p>But once he did say that a true soulmate will always help their partner grow. And sometimes this may mean helping them grow so much that you must let them go.<p>I thought that was a bit cooky when I first mulled it over...but I don't think it is. I think that is what life is. Harder than hell, no doubt, but if people grow, together, yet lead to different paths...what is that?<p>Cetainly not for me...LOL...but something to think about. <p>Thanks again to all! Good luck TFS...and remember to keep the friendship strong!