Yesterday I had a WONDERFUL day with my girls - even though it was about 100 degrees in the shade, and I now ended up feeling like a peice of wilted lettuce by the time we were done, lol.

However, my experience was somewhat sowered by a conversation I had with my children on the way home. As per usual, they decided to unload on me about events over the last week. I never ask them, as I want to involve them in this whole rotten affair as little as possible, but when they want to talk to me about things I will always listen.

Seems that my wife has made me out to be a frigging ALCOHOLIC to both her attourney and the children's grandparents. So much so, that while the children were with their grandparents this last week, the grandparents made constant disparaging remarks to my children about my "drinking problems". In fact, their grandfather - while joking around about having the children stay there with them indefinitely - even made the remark that I wouldn't mind this if they offered to trade me $40 worth of Booze in exchange for the children.

I find this type of behavior to be not only morally reprehensible, but utterly disgusting. One of the worst and most common mistakes people make during a divorce is talking bad about a parent to the children.

I called my mother in law and confronted her on this, and she admitted that it was all true ... but she was just "trying to help", and that they "love me very much". Whatever. She said the comment by her husband about me trading my children for $40 worth of booze was just a harmless joke.

There's really not a whole lot I can do about this. I don't want my children around people who are hurting them in this way.

Does anyone have any advice?

Advice? Sure. Become a teetotaler immediately, and keep detailed records of all your expenditures so that when your wife's attorney brings this up in court you can prove that you spent no money on alcohol.

That may seem like overkill (and maybe it is), but by doing this you will be able to put another dent in your wife's credibility and simultaneously demonstrate just how serious you are about doing whatever it takes to regain and retain your parental rights.

By the way, it boggles my mind that anyone could consider your father-in-law's joke to be harmless, and I can't imagine how your in-laws could think they were "helping" anybody.

Ugh.

My hearing was today. It was a complete FIASCO.

1st off, I had a female judge (no offense to any women reading this, but they USUALLY lean towards the woman in any case). She proceeded to inform us before we EVEN STARTED that nothing my lawyer had to say would make any difference to her. WHAT???!!!! She had barely given the restraining order a cursory glance after she made this announcement!!!

To make matters worse, my lawyer proceeded to COMPLETELY DROP THE BALL. He didn't ask any of our witnesses the questions he was supposed to ... he didn't even ask ME the questions he was supposed to, and he asked my wife barely ANYTHING.

My wife deserves the academy award for best supporting actress playing "Victim". Her lawyer was a bulldog a**hole. Tried to make me look like some kind of creep (this, at least, was to be expected).

End result: RO stays in effect and I only gained 2 more days per month with my daughters for all of my money and efforts.

I don't get this ... welcome to the world of domestic law I guess ...

HWRAD,

Sorry to hear this. The family court systems are very bias in general, sorry but it true. RO's are granted with no proof or evidence required to obtain these. Even in challenging the legal aspects of thse, frankly the judges could give a sh** about the unsupported allegations. Nice legal system we have! Your wife's attorney knows this and that is exactly why they used this. Like I said before, slimey but very effective. You can't and won't win against this type of warfare.

You need to strategize my friend. Given your past posts, sounds like your attorney is taking your case "on a flyer". Which means he is just going through the motions, not taking action, collecting a paycheck...la dee dah...I would seriously consider consulting with a few more lawyers before letting this guy take your divorce case any further and maybe even into court and drop the ball again. He should have given you an idea that this was going to happen, he is suppose to know the justive system, courts, lasws, etc.

Simply put, you can not afford this inadequate representation again. I would have fired him right on the spot-with no questions asked!

Conduct some research on attorneys that specialize in father rights through DADS or Fathers Right Foundation. Check-out your local court docket for divorce cases that involve custody disputes, sit in on a few divorce cases, watch the attorney's and judges in action.
You may see an attorney that will get the job done right.

Example, if you planning to defend yourself in a war. You need to have as much information as possible on you opponents. It's all about strategy. The court system can be viewed as an opponent too--you have had first-hand experience to this aspect.

My heart goes out to you, I have been in your same situation. This maybe be painful to read, but you WILL be better-off without her eventually. Don't engage in a battle with her, she will have no one to fight with, except herself. Don't bow to her demands, don't attack, just take a stand for your kids.

Whatever you, don't give-up on your kids and keep that goal in mind right now.

You have any healthy hobbies or interests? Go out and have some fun doing them. Act happy and that you actually like this new found freedom, stay busy. As they say in AA,.."fake it till you make it"... This will accomplish a few things; get you out of the pain that you are feeling, she will see that you are moving-on without her and she is not the center of attention any longer.

Sorry if you percieve this or even me as a hardnose. I have been through this hell and I am not going to sugarcoat this crap. I will just state the reality of it.

Seek out a seasoned attorney to get what you deserve with your children.

Best of luck.

-ND

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: New Dutchman ]</small>

@$&#.

Maybe I should have posted my diatribe about the court system after all. The only thing that surprises me about your experience, hwrad, is that you actually got a "hearing" so quickly. Maybe it's your jurisdiction, or maybe it's because kids are involved. I don't know. I have been paying court-ordered spousal support for more than a year-and-a-half - spousal support that was obtained via demonstrable fraud - and I have been unable to refinance my house because of a restraining order, and in all that time there has yet to be a hearing of any sort in my divorce case. That is, unless you count the times I've been dragged out to the courthouse to sit in the hall while the lawyers closet themselves with a magistrate and make sure I have no way of knowing what's really going on behind those closed doors. (It's beyond my understanding why I need to be at the courthouse for a "hearing" that has no purpose other than to set a date for everyone to get together to set a date to have a hearing that then ends up being double-booked so that it is canceled anyway.) My legal fees are already into five figures, and for all practical purposes my case hasn't even started!

But I have no children. Because you do, hwrad, you are in a much worse situation than I am, and if I were you I would first demand an explanation from my lawyer, and then I would set out to contact as many fathers' rights organizations as I could find. The judge's stated intention to rule on your case without first legitimately hearing it is a gross (albeit typical) abuse of power, and frankly I don't know if anything can be done about it unless you can get an attorney outside the local system involved. I doubt that any local domestic relations lawyer would make a fuss, since the lawyers' careers depend to some extent on maintaining good relations with the judges - especially the crooked ones who flaunt their disdain for the law.

The problem is that the entire system is set up to destroy anyone who blunders into its path. The courts are unmonitored and unchecked. Imagine barbarian hordes overrunning your home with intent to rape and pillage, and you will not be far from the mark. The courts do not care about you, and they do not care about your daughters. They are not interested in the charges and allegations against you, and they are not interested in your defense. All they care about is getting you off the docket, and even the written laws have little bearing on what they do. They have heard so many lies that they do not expect to discover the truth, and so they do not even try. In fact, despite the farce of being sworn in ("to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"), the court proceedings are very deliberately used to obscure the truth. Getting your "day in court" just means getting another opportunity to be raped and abused as the lawyers lie and posture. If you actually get a chance to present some kind of a real defense you can count yourself fortunate.

But you have already seen this for yourself.

Do not look to the lawyers and the courts to "save" you. Your lawyer has his own ideas about priorities and what it means to "win", but those ideas are applicable only in the artificial world of the courts. Believe me, the courts do not operate in the real world. They have completely lost touch with the real world (perhaps in order to shield the judges and lawyers from awareness of the pain and evil that bring people into their purview, and which they in turn collude to amplify and perpetuate). Unlike them, you have to live in the real world. So do not be afraid to set your own priorities and tell your lawyers to act accordingly. You should definitely listen to their advice, since even though it may make no sense whatsoever in the real world, its application in the artificial world of the courts can have an enormous impact on what happens in the real world.) But if your lawyer insists on playing the "game" his own way and ignores your instruction, find another lawyer.

Also, remember that your wife is not any more immune to the judicial juggernaut than you are. In some respects, she is even at a greater disadvantage, since she is in her own fantasy world, and juggling three different worlds is more than anyone can reasonably be expected to handle. While your chances of receiving justice in the court system might not be much different from what they would be in a medieval court's "trial by ordeal", the courts will have to take note if she self-destructs sufficiently. More than anything, I think you are playing a waiting game.

And that's my main point here, I think. You said earlier that "I cannot wait a COUPLE OF YEARS for my daughters." Well, you may have to, and I think you'd better start getting your mindset in order for the long haul. Everything that happens is subject to dispute, objection and appeal; and even if you choose not to fight for your daughters, your wife may keep you running through legal hoops for many years to come.

I sure hope you're a praying man, hwrad, because you are going to need God on your side to overcome the forces arrayed against you.

Thanks for you responses.

I agree with everything that you have said ...

This is, indeed a waiting game. It's tearing me apart - as I've always been an impatient person.

My attourney is getting fired, make no mistake about that. I called around today and got the names of the 3 top divorce attourneys in my area. These people have experience, and will not be bullied by a judge.

I am also looking into trying the RO again on grounds of misrepresentation. I am ALSO getting a full transcript of the hearing, and am planning on filing a formal complaint against the judge with the Bar association in this state.

In the mean time, many of my personal belongings are still at my wife's home, some of which are quite valuable. I am able to return there 1 time only for 20 minutes with a police officer to retrieve them. However, when I contacted the police department today about doing this, they informed me that I could not do so without my wife's permission, even though it is clearly stated in the RO that this is my right!

So ... I have found out by closely studying the ORS (Oregon Revised Statutes) on the subject that I MAY contact my wife through a mutual friend, so long as it is not in a malicous way, etc. I had the ONE mutual friend we have call her (she doesn't have many friends) and ask her if I could come get my stuff today, accompanied by an officer. Her response was "No, he has to do everything through our attourneys".

And I can't get ahold of my worthless attourney today (no surprise there, I bet he never wants to see me again).

WTF???!!! S'cuse the language.

I am so over a barrel here ... I have absolutely no rights whatsoever. It looks as though I will now have to go to court again to petition to go retrieve my personal belongings. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGG.

AND, I have this feeling ... that if I can't supply receipts for everything which belongs to me (such as the 1949 Martin D28 guitar which belonged to my father who died when I was 2 yrs old, etc), that I won't be able to get a thing.

I DO NOT understand how anyone can treat a fellow human being so cruelly. Surely she'd rather have all of my stuff out of the house so she isn't reminded of me anymore, and can move on with her new love interests???

All I know is this: I need a BULLDOG of an attourney right now, not Winney the Pooh.

Oh, and as for fighting as long as it takes for my children - 2 years or more - you'd better believe it. I'll fight for them till the day they turn 18 if I have to ...

If you haven't already filed a restraining order preventing your wife from selling or otherwise disposing of your possessions, I hope you give serious thought to doing so.

By the way, I too gave very careful study to the Revised Code in my state. One of the bigger shocks I received through this whole process was the discovery that it is almost entirely irrelevant.

It may be the law, but it's not the way things are actually done. The courts have elaborate rules of their own, which are designed to allow them to claim that they are following the letter of the law, while they are to all intents and purposes circumventing the law.

Take it from me, the more you know about what the law says, the more angry and confused you will become as you see how badly our civil institutions have betrayed us.

Thanks Gnome.

I had no idea that one COULD file an RO on their property! Once again, I've made appointments for consultation with 2 other lawyers now. It's time for a new coach for this team ...

I will find out today whether or not she is willing to let me get the last of my belongings out of her house. I suspect not. My current attourney is contacting her's with a list of the things I want (all highly personal items; not the TV, VCR, DVD, etc).

I have to share an experience with you all that I had yesterday. I had been having a really rough day, hadn't slept much the night before. I was consumed with my thoughts on all of this, while taking a coffee break in the sunshine. Suddenly, it felt as if a veil was being drawn over my entire being, and all of the worries, anxieties, and pain just drifted away.

It was the strangest feeling, after having dealt with all of this for months now. It was almost as if (I hope this doesn't sound bad) I had never HAD a family at all; and therefore had never lost anything. Instead of dwelling on my depression over my loss, I was suddenly thinking about the future, and my potential in it. I began thinking of all the dreams I can now actualize that she would never let me. I began becoming MYSELF again ...

Whatever happened, it's the greatest gift that could have been given to me at a time like this. I still feel it now. Don't get me wrong, it didn't take away or even slightly diminish my love or determination for my children; it just took away all of the heartache and pain I've been feeling.

I can honestly say at this moment, that I've let my wife go. I have a suspicion that this feeling won't remain indefinitely, so I'm taking advantage of the emotional freedom while I can!

I have time as a tool in this battle, just as you've all told me. Right now, I have the room for emotional patience. Let's hope I can hold onto this!

hwrad,

I went through some of the same things. I've give a brief outline of tips and tricks that I learned from discovery to divorce. The first thing is to come to grips with reality. You will need either strong family, friends, or professional help.

1. The first reality is that the person you love no longer exists. This is the hardest thing to realize. She might look like her and sometimes act like her, but NEVER again will she be back. Plus, after this s&*t you'll hate her like no other.

2. If you have done anything in the past no matter how minor, prepare to be attacked with it. I even had our limo driver subpoenaed to testify about an argument we had about her affair. Create a defense for each situation, GET WITNESSES. You need to set her up, if she is a lying, manipulative b@$@#$h she will screw up. Trust me. I would find an attractive female friend or male friend that she hates or doesn't know. Push her buttons.

3. Get a restraining order on her. I did this to protect my business, customers, employees, self, etc. You are in WAR, she launches a missle have one for yourself.

4. Never pick up the kids without someone, or even better have a family member pick them up for you. No contact will drive her insane, she LIKES to see you hurting. F&*@#%^$ her.

5. Keep busy and try not to focus on divorce, go out, read something fun, etc. The better your spirits, the stronger you will be when you go to court. Because you will be hurt every time you go, you'll need the strength.

6. YOU FILE FOR DIVORCE. Control the venue. Move her out of the current county if possible and get the best shark possible there. Even if you have to move. It will irritate her lawyer and make him drive and he will do stupid things to expediate the case.

7. Patience, Patience, Patience. Your kids will be part of your life forever, don't think about the next year or two fighting for them but the next 50 you will know them. Daughters go for their dad's you always win in the future.

8. In my experience, when a relationship goes to this extreme the roller-coaster will drag you up and down. The first one is when she confronts reality and decides to "WORK IT OUT" , every one here wishes for this at some point. When this happens, DO NOT FALL FOR IT. This is your chance, tell her that you do want to work it out but you would like to end this marriage and begin another by getting re-married to her. Make sure you get all of the fiscal, support, and custody in your favor. Be fair and close the deal.

In all, I really wanted to stay married with my kids and went back and forth with my ex-wife and her OM. I felt really bad about myself. I did the would've, could've, should've and guilted myself into being used and abused. I felt unattractive, inadequte, etc. This from a 6'2",27 year old, self-made multi-millionaire, really good looking guy with size 13 feet ( that's for our female readers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

I tried therapy with the Harley's, I worked on myself ( which really helps when our own BS fog clears ), I spent 145,000 on attorney's, lost both of my houses, went to jail ( falsely accused , sound familar ), reduced my hours at my own company to save my family. Every thing a man could possibly do.

So listen to my advice, I have a great life a year later. I have a house on the ocean, travel everywhere, date some wonderfully fun woman, get my daugther every weekend except one a month. I got back to being me.... with the intelligence, experience, and good fortune to not break and not get too jaded.

Good Luck,
Rich

hwrad; I'm sorry you are going through this and I'm sure you are hurtiing alot. I've seen some good advice posted here. I'd like to give you a perspective as a woman who just 3 months ago filed a restraining order, filed for divorce, and moved myself and the kids out of the house while my stbx was at work. (read past posts for the whole messy story). My stbx was/is very religous, and was shocked by what I did. He was even more shocked when the RO was extended to a year.....as was I! The point I want to make is that there may be things in your behavior that made her feel she needed to do this: for me, altho my stbx never actually hit me, he threatened to and came close twice. He was continually verbally and emotionally abusive towards me. He is great with the kids....but used them as pawns between us. If the judge felt it was warranted to continue the RO, examine your own behavior and see if there is any merit to your wife's fears. You may feel that everyone is against you, but the judge has seen enough cases to know when there are red flags. In my case, the judge sentenced a man who had used religious rhetoric as an excuse to hold his wife at gunpoint just before he decided whether to extend my RO......my stbx's religious reasons for wanting to work on our marriage worked against him with the judge.

RO's are horrible because you can't have good communication either. However, for me most of our communication left me feeling so awful, the RO has been worth the inconvenience. Unfortunately, my stbx broke it several times and I didn't report him because I didn't want to be a jerk.....and he kept pushiing and pushing until finally one day he gave me a letter, I asked the sheriff what I should do.....and you can write the rest of that story. I hated to have him arrested, but he wouldn't listen. Isn't that why I had to leave in the first place???

My advice if you want her back would be:
1. Play by the rules. Even if you don't like them.
2. Don't badmouth her to the kids, mutual friends, the bus driver, etc. It will get back to her and she will assume you don't want to reconcile.
3. Treat the kids kindly. Do things for them that their mom will appreciate....new clothes even tho you already pay child support, a book or game......school supplies, coupons for pizza....

Those are just a few ideas, hope they help. Sigh......hope my stbx reads them too.

Thanks ...

It's helpful to have a completely different viewpoint.

I would consider holding someone at gunpoint good cause to uphold/lengthen a restraining order! Also, the repeated purposeful attempts at contact are a no-no.

In my case, I have done none of those things (I know, I know, they all say that). I have not tried to contact her at all - though that has been rather painful for me. The one time I made a "clear violation" was purely accidental; and my fault for not reading the RO clearly.

As for it being extended to a year, 1 year is already the standard in my state (OR).

Believe me, I have already gone through deep introspection as far as whether or not I screwed up here; the only thing which honestly holds me back from feeling totally responsible for all of this is the fact that she has always been physically abusive to me (punching me in the stomach when I wasn't expecting it, slapping my face, etc) repeatedly over the course of our marriage, and I have done nothing to her in return.

As for your 3 points, I have already been practicing points 2 & 3 from the start. The 1st one I screwed up on in oversight - and paid a high price for it!

You mentioned reconciliation ... this woman DOES NOT wish to reconcile. She doesn't even know who I am anymore, and she herself has become someone else. It's as if our marriage never existed for her. This is the main reason that she doesn't even want to have to SEE me, even at a distance. It will shatter that illusion for her.

As I said, it is helpful to have the opposite point of view, but right now my sanity depends on not only accepting responsibility for my own role in all of this, but also in realizing where to draw the line in accordance to where my role ended and her's began ...

I cannot at this point accept the sole responsibility for destroying my family.

gotSmart, some of your advice may be sound, such as your recommendation to be prepared to defend against any foreseeable attack, but there are elements I find disturbing and sad.

You say "The first reality is that the person you love no longer exists...NEVER again will she be back." With your unique ability to see the future so clearly, it's hardly surprising that you are a self-made multi-millionaire. As someone with more human capabilities, I am unwilling to guide my decisions by what may, after all, end up being merely a wishful delusion designed to help me "get on" with my life.

In fact, everything I have learned about "the way we are" suggests that this interpretation is utterly wrong. Either "the person you love" never existed in the first place, being either a clever fraud from the beginning or else a fantasy made and sustained through our own self-deception; or that person is still there, locked miserably away behind walls of self-delusion.

You say "Plus, after this s&*t you'll hate her like no other." But, the person damaged most by hatred is the one doing the hating. I don't think taking an approach to the situation which is designed to cultivate hatred is wise. But that's what you seem to be advocating. You propose manipulative strategems for the sole purpose of causing irritation. Yeah, that's sure to win the ultimate respect of your kids.

Personally, I think divorce under these circumstances calls for Aikido rather than Karate. That seems to be Annavon's advice as well. Be the better person, not the better manipulater.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hwrad:
<strong>Instead of dwelling on my depression over my loss, I was suddenly thinking about the future, and my potential in it. I began thinking of all the dreams I can now actualize that she would never let me. I began becoming MYSELF again ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It took me almost an entire year for the realization to hit me that I was no longer subject to my wife's approval. Alas, the feeling of liberation was short-lived. When I went back and dusted off my old dreams, I discovered that there were really only two things I wanted that my marriage had impeded: I wanted a motorcycle, and I wanted to go back to school.

Well, I got my motorcycle, and it has been surprisingly therapeutic for me. But as for the bigger dream...

The financial fallout of divorce has effectively put the kibosh on that one, at least for quite a few years to come, and possibly for good.

Gnome,

Fortunately for me, the dreams I have are not dependant (very much) on $$$. I have always been a musician, and she always hated it when I practiced my instrument (guitar). I am planning on getting in a band again ... I've been playing for 15+ years. I've also always wanted to do some writing, maybe even try a novel. Now I'll have time to do that, without her fits of jealousy over the fact that I'm not spending every waking second revolving around Her. I will also now have time to more fully persue programming, which I had gotten a good start on, but had to back off of due to the aforementioned jealousy.

I devoted so much time of our 11 year marriage to her needs/wants, that mine got shelved one by one. I don't have to do that anymore.

I even realize now that our sex life wasn't as good as I had thought it was (disclaimer: if this makes you squeamish to read, gloss over this paragraph). I spent all of my time in bed satisfying the woman; she Demanded 2/3 orgasms before I had one myself - that was the rule, and I caught h*** anytime I slipped on that (which was rare, believe me). If she didn't feel like making love, and I asked her if she would do something simple to satisfy my needs, she would respond "Why should I? I won't get anything out of it."

These are things that I am just coming to recognize as disfunctional behavior. After 11 years I became conditioned into believing that these things are normal, ie, that women are "just that way". This is SO untrue.

More and more I am seeing this as a good thing, except with regards to the children. I wasn't given much room to breath during our marriage. I wasn't allowed to have friends or interact with anyone other than her (not even male friends, let alone FEMALE friends, lol). On the rare occasions - perhaps twice a year - that she would agree to my spending time with "the guys", it was hardly worth it; as I had to deal with temper tantrums and bad attitude over it for days afterwards.

I just realized that I used the word "allowed" to describe my circumstance, and that may seem odd to some of you. You must realize, that while I made these decisions myself, I had little option; as the consequences for doing anything other than what she wished would result in anything from screaming tirades to physical violence, to the dreaded being left alone again for several days in an empty house. I did what I thougth I HAD to do to keep our marriage alive. I see now that I was only enabling more behavior, and that the outcome is now the same as it would have been if I'd stood up for myself more.

I won't make the same mistake again.

I think gotSmart did have a few peices of good advice - though I have to agree with you Gnome on most of your analysis of his post. I think one great thing he said was the admonition to be wary of her trying to "work it out". Though I really don't think she'll do this, it might suddenly come up if things start to NOT go her way.

I think I will have to say No. She needs some serious help, and I can't give it to her. I cannot live again under those same conditions, now that I have tasted freedom, and breathed the fresh air of self awareness. I am now more myself than I ever was while we were together. The problems I had during our marriage have literally fallen away from me; as if whatever source fed them had suddenly been cut off.

I don't know if it was her or me, it really doesn't matter. What matters now is the difference I feel, and the happiness. I have yet to experience a deep sense of peace over this, but I know that that too will come in time. It's not that I didn't love her with all of my heart, I think it's that she never really loved Me. And we all deserve to be loved ...

Thanks guys...

I have been where you have been. I can tell you that I know it is pathetic to pine over a woman that you invested time, devotion, love, money, etc.. I DID IT TOO.

This woman is manipulative, abusive, controlling, in all ways emotionally, physically, sexually, and spritually.

All of my suggestions are sound. We are becoming pussified by the lame [censored] "I shouldn't hate her", "maybe I never saw the real her", and I deluded myself psycho driven babble. I used to be there too, my old posts were the same castrated, whining, crap.

My goal is to have the men out here grow some balls and stand up. Take charge for once, this b*$%@# threw him in jail. Take that negative energy and do something positive with it. Being negative and having anger and emotion to being hurt is GOOD. Manipulate the Manipulator, trust me while he is being the good guy, she is filling the kids heads with bulls(*&t and being strong is the only way out. When did men stop being men... Oprah??

Get some balls. You'll thank me and agree in the future.

My stragegy right now...

1. File for divorce.

2. Get a restraining order on her if your story is true. She is handing you aces.

3. Ask for custody evry weekend. I got it Friday to Monday and made her pickup my daughter at the police station. Keeps the whole RO thing straight.

4. Lay back in wait for the next move. Jab and move.

My radar...

1. You might be full of crap and an abuser... The courts only care about the children you two are on your own. My good friend is the number one divorce attorney in a very affluent Southern California town. One day a week is almost non-existant

2. One of the children is not yours.. Your a step-dad???

3. She already has another man.

4. Something is missing in the story.....



I'll give my free strategy tips as long as you post. By the way the kids will make there own decision about you, long from now and your actions here are self-defensive. Mommy threw Daddy in Jail for saying Hello. Just give me all of the true and I can do the best I can.

"Run, Forest , Run" GotSmart

I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that you were the sole cause of the breakup of your family.....no one person is. Even my abusive husband wasn't the sole cause; in retrospect I could have not been so codependent and allowed the situation to get where it did. I also see from your posts that your ex wife is probly more like my stbx in the irrational behavior. So, I'm in the position of being the one he goes around calling the villain because I left him, took the kids, and slapped him with a RO. ON the other hand, I am trying to be the best person I can be.... I speak well of him to the kids (he does have a few good qualities, after all), I try to give him as much visitation as he wants (he uses this to accuse me of not wanting the kids around so I can date. not true, but I can't win with this guy). I make sure the kids are clean and well dressed when he takes them so they can go anywhere, they usually have a few $$$ in spending money so he doesn't have to hear the "gimmies" constantly, I pack church clothes even tho he never takes them, and when the kids come home and are upset they didn't go, I don't run him down. I don't make excuses for him either. When they complain about his bad behavior, we discuss it, but not in a critical, condemning way. I have told my kids we have no secrets...they may tell dad anything I do, or about any person that comes to the house. (Dad frequently tells them "don't tell mom about this".....it really eats at them.)

Basically, I am just saying again.....you can't control their behavior, you can control your own. Be the best parent and person you can be. Don't ever do anything or have anyone over that you don't want to have your kids tell your spouse. In the long run, her own erratic behavior will wear her down and you'll win...and the kids will know who the stable one is, and who really loves them. As to the court system, guess I'm not quite as cynical as some. Depends on where you are, I'm sure, but here in Iowa I think they are pretty fair and concerned about families. Both my x and I were required to take a class on divorce and the effect on kids that was extremely informative and helpful and stressed workiing things out rather than going to court. Does your state have anything like that, even if it's not mandatory?

Hang in there!

Yes, hwrad, I can relate to the my-time-is-now-my-own thing. In my marriage too, my wife's needs and wants generally took precedence, although my wife was not so much demanding as she was uncompromising. Basically, I think she never understood the difference between making compromises (e.g. with how she spent her time) and compromising herself (e.g. her integrity or her dignity). As a result, if I wanted to spend time with her, it meant going along with her on what she would have been doing anyhow. Since I'm an adaptable and accommodating sort of fellow, and since I liked spending time with my wife and I shared almost all of her interests, this didn't bother me all that much.

But I think I understand what you are saying about having little option despite making your own decisions. In my case, the consequences of not going along with my wife was not abuse; it was time spent alone - and many times I enjoy being alone. But negotiation was never a big part of the picture. So sure enough, when I finally did try to stand up for myself with regard to something in our relationship that actually did matter to me, I discovered that I had been enabling some pretty destructive attitudes on my wife's part. What's more, I believe that she started to realize that too, but would not or could not deal with the root problem. Caught between fear and guilt, she ran; and her attempts to hide from the truth have become increasingly desperate and delusional.

As you said, "I won't make the same mistake again." I will not continue to enable her. (Or at least, no more so than the courts require: unfortunately, as I see it, the courts are irresponsibly affirming her delusions.) Again, as you said, "She needs some serious help, and I can't give it to her." I would love to reconcile, and I am more than willing to wipe the slate clean; but if we get back together it must be as equal partners in a healthy relationship.

A lyric comes to mind, written by Diane Warren and sung by Russell Watson as the theme song to "Star Trek: Enterprise". (I find the show unwatchable, but I do like the song.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It´s been a long road, getting from there to here.
It´s been a long time, but my time is finally near.
And I can feel the change in the wind right now. Nothing´s in my way.
And they´re not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna hold me down.

Cause I´ve got faith of the heart.
I´m going where my heart will take me.
I´ve got faith to believe. I can do anything.
I´ve got strength of the soul. And no one´s gonna bend or break me.
I can reach any star. I´ve got faith, faith of the heart.

It´s been a long night. Trying to find my way.
Been through the darkness. Now I finally have my day.
And I will see my dream come alive at last. I will touch the sky.
And they´re not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind.

Cause I´ve got faith of the heart.
I´m going where my heart will take me.
I´ve got faith to believe. I can do anything.
I´ve got strength of the soul. And no one´s gonna bend or break me.
I can reach any star. I´ve got faith, faith of the heart.

I´ve known the wind so cold, I´ve seen the darkest days.
But now the winds I feel, are only winds of change.
I´ve been through the fire and I´ve been through the rain.
But I´ll be fine ...

Cause I´ve got faith of the heart.
I´m going where my heart will take me.
I´ve got faith to believe. I can do anything.
I´ve got strength of the soul. And no one´s gonna bend or break me.
I can reach any star. I´ve got faith, faith of the heart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that's melodramatic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I make no apologies.

gotSmart, I believe that a real man "stands up" for the sake of principle, rather than strutting and posturing for the sake of pride. At least that's the kind of man I want to be. If you think that makes me pathetic, it's no skin off my back.

I believe you're right about the value to allowing yourself to feel anger at being unjustly attacked and hurt. But holding onto that anger and nursing it is not doing something positive with it.

Maybe your experience didn't "break" you, gotSmart. Maybe it didn't leave you "jaded". And maybe you've got a "great life" now, as you say. But did you become a better person? Are you capable of opening your heart to the "wonderfully fun" women you spend time with? Or do you see taking that kind of risk as too unmanly?

GotSmart:

I appreciate your advice and help, so I'm going to set the record straight on a few things for you.

1)SHE has already filed for divorce. I had to fight this RO, and my attourney cautioned me to handle one issue at a time. The day we showed up in court for the RO, her attourney announced to the judge that they had filed that morning. I have yet to recieve any paperwork, however.

2)Get a RO on her? For what? For my personal belongings? How do I know they're even still at her house?

3)Asking for custody every weekend won't be possible until there is some sort of custody hearing, which could be 3 months out. This could be expidited if she agreed to it, but she WON'T, I can tell you that right now.

4)I AM laying back in wait for the next move; it's the only option I have right now.

As for your Radar:

1)I am NOT an abuser. That's utterly ridiculous (though you have no way of knowing this, I understand). I have been open and honest with everyone on this board, even when I felt I was writing too much in regards to my personal life.

2) BOTH children are mine. I am not a step-dad.

3)Another man? Quite possible, but I have no way of knowing for sure. I caught her being unfaithful during our marriage, and caught her lying to me about it. However, I find this irrelevant at this point.

4)You're right ... something IS missing in this story. I have NO IDEA what it would be, as I've presented to you all I know. I suspect what's missing would have to do with outside influences I don't know about.

As for the children and how they're reacting to all of this, they've made their feelings clear to me from the beginning. THEY BOTH WANT TO LIVE WITH ME FULL TIME. They are both angry at their mother for what she's done/doing. She is being verbally abusive to them in my absence (she no longer has me to take her agressions out on). She disparages me to them constantly, and this also hurts them and makes them angry. She does not have their best interests at heart, and even at their young age they intuitively know this. It sickens me.

The only thing I could do at this point that I haven't is APPEAL THE RO HEARING. Ask for a change of venue, yada yada yada. This would cost me $$$ I simply don't have. I do not have your luxury of income gotSmart. Besides, I would most likely lose again anyway; it's been made abundantly clear to me that in this state it's incredibly easy to GET an RO on someone, and 10 times as hard to get one removed. Basically what it comes down to is this: the court assumes that if a woman WANTS an RO, even if there is no evidence or history to support it (as in my case), she should have an RO simply to protect her peace of mind. No one cares about the Respondant's peice of mind (in particular when the respondant is a man).

Annavon:

"Even my abusive husband wasn't the sole cause; in retrospect I could have not been so codependent and allowed the situation to get where it did."

I understand. This is NOT, however, my exact situation. I am NOT an abuser. I feel like I'm getting lumped in with a certain class of men here, and you need to be reminded that every situation is different, and that I am NOT your husband; not even necessarily anything LIKE your husband.

"ON the other hand, I am trying to be the best person I can be.... I speak well of him to the kids "

My wife is NOT like you. She doesn't speak well of me to the children, she outright calls me a "F****** Bast***" to them on a regular basis. Then again, she has also called my oldest daughter a "little bit**", and called them both "little shi**". I DO NOT speak bad about her to the children in return. She is burning her own bridges with them in acting like this.

"I try to give him as much visitation as he wants"

Again, this is NOT the case with my wife. In court she tried to appeal to the judge not to let my children stay overnight with me. THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS! She knows I am an excellent father, and has always said it herself. I don't even BEGIN to understand her angle on this.

"I have told my kids we have no secrets...they may tell dad anything I do, or about any person that comes to the house."

Nor is THIS the case in my situation. She told them, after I had the police investigate their abuse at the baby sitter's, to "Keep your mouths shut". IN THOSE WORDS. I do NOT tell them not to discuss me with their mother, rather I avoid discussing with them anything I wouldn't want her to hear.

EVERY SITUATION ON THIS BOARD IS UNIQUE. It's true, my situation shares many similarities with many other cases here, and that is helpful to me in being able to work this all out. However, I have yet to read one person's story that was EXACTLY like mine.