Sorry, duplicate message.<p>[This message has been edited by lonelywife (edited October 12, 2000).]

Hello Renae,<P>How are you doing? Any progress on your side?<P>Please let me know how you're doing? Take care.

Hi Lonelywife,<P>It's a "mix" here. At times I feel a surge of new life and peace since I put my foot down firmly to him and insisted on separation. It is the only thing I can do. I know that, but it's not easy at all.<P>I had told him a while back that the kids and I need to know where we will live by Aug. 1st so we're settled in before school...<BR>On Sat., to my complete shock, he offered this new house we're in, saying it is best for the kids, our old house will take much more time to fix up, etc. This is good.<P>Also on Sat., I reminded him I need separation ASAP, and he said, well, it has taken time,as I wanted to get you a different car (which he did), he took me to a specialist for my eyes recently, etc. I thought it was to win me back, but it was to provide for the kids and I as I go on my own? I guess I thought this thing was going to get nastier, but he is cooperating in ways like this that I hadn't imagined. I think it is the Lord working on my behalf. This is good.<P>Bad part is, the night before last I was in complete misery after another verbally abusive episode and am struggling to recover. The worst thing is when he does it in front of the kids, calls me down and gets the kids to side with him, and humilates me. Couldn't sleep that night and depression settles in for days. In fact, he "shoots" me with pain every chance he can, and I just can't take anymore...NOT ONE MORE TIME!! Today I planned to be away from home all day with the kids. I just have to avoid him until he is moved out.<P>What I'm afraid of is that he could back out on this house situation he offered me or that he would become stubborn and not move out. Yet if I ask him to put it in writing or force him moving, it could get worse here. Yet he knows it is best for me to be here to complete unfinished business (could take several months); if he sends me away to get my own place I will obviously have to find employment right away and he will be left with all the work when he's drowning in it already. So, maybe this is the best of situations right now? I just don't want to see him around, and I hope he will stay away and stop hurting me!!!<P>So many thoughts go through my mind about this whole mess. I can't begin to explain. I wanted a marriage. I didn't want this kind of situation!! To think of how hard I've worked at such a hopeless situation?!<P>Today one daughter & I visited a store we hadn't been to before. She was pointing out items Daddy would like to have in our new house, and I had this raw feeling in my stomach....I am so sad. For her and her sister, it will be very sad.....<BR>And how will we adjust??... I felt empty thinking of adjusting to the single life.<BR>But then, I've really been living the single life for years anyway with no healthy relationship. I have been very very alone. It will be peaceful to have him gone, but empty too. <BR>~Renae<P>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 28, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 28, 2000).]

Hello Renae,<BR>It's good that your H is cooperating with you regarding the separation, at least most of the time.<P>Have you determined what starts these emotional and abusive outbursts. That might be the clue as to how to resolve it. Simplistically, maybe one or more of his EN are not being met and therefore he responds with anger.<P>Have you voiced to him that he should not get angry or abusive in front of the children.<P>I know, this is easier said then done. Wish you good luck. Take care. Lonelywife.<BR>

Lonelywife,<P>The kinds of questions you ask...I was in that frame of mind for most of the marriage, trying to figure him out, working on myself and what I or we might be doing wrong, etc. This is the natural way to approach a marital conflict and attempt to resolve it.<P>But this is not a normal relationship. From all the reading I've done, observation of what I'm experiencing, counseling...<BR>I learned my spouse is abnormal. He doesn't operate like a normal marital partner you can reason with and resolve conflict.<P>My spouse is a classic "CONTROLLER, ABUSER, NARCISSIST":<P>1. An abuser abuses someone to cover up his own negative feelings. He can't deal with his own feelings, covers them up, denies them to himself, projects them onto me and makes me the bad guy. <P>2. A narcissist and controller only has his own interests and needs in mind and dominates to get his needs met. He doesn't care that he abuses me in the process. He uses anger and threats to control. If I try to mention my needs, he accuses me of being selfish or gets mad at me. He is about power, not a normal mutual relationship where two people relate as equally valuable people, partnership, and meeting each others needs. He is a childish dictator, not a marital partner.<P>What makes this so hopeless for him to see his disorder and change, is because his church teaches men as head and women submit. However, I think nobody in that church takes it to the extreme my spouse does. My spouse believes the way he operates with me is Biblical! So why change?... <P>Spiritual abuse is using the Bible in a distorted way against people and/or to manipulate them to get your own needs met.<P>My spouse's verbal abuse comes from the pain inside him of not functioning as a normal person. It is not about me.<P>My fault in this whole thing has been in allowing him to dominate me and letting him keep using and abusing me. I should have stood up to him and never married him. But I didn't know there were people like him. I thought he was about developing an close relationship of mutual happiness.<P>His religion sometimes operates by shaming people into "doing right", so my spouse shames me into submitting to his every need.<P>Took me a long time to figure this whole thing out. But God has helped me get it sorted out. Now I think God is in the process of rescueing me from this bondage. I can't wait to be completely free of this sick man...I can't make him realize the truth. He told me "You should always shut up and listen to me! A woman must not teach a man anything!" (Another distortion of scripture used to dominate me.)<P>In learning the truth about my spouse, I am finding more freedom inside me. Things can only get better for me coming out of this bondage.<P>~Renae<P>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 28, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 28, 2000).]

Hello Renae,<BR>I am sure the questions I have been asking you have gone through yourself a kazillion times.<P>Your husband sounds like my husband's brother - like his ego is bigger than his a**. Except that my b-i-l does not read the Bible. But he thinks he is always right and people should do as he says without question. He detests me because I do not follow him blindly.<P>After all you have said and done Renae, I can't help but agree with you that you would definitely be better off without your husband. It's sad and it's going to be a long lonely, rough road ahead but know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. And whatever decision you make, you have made it after a lot of thought and consideration for both yourself and your children.<P>I'm sure there will be light after the end of the tunnel. You are sure to find more happiness and who knows, maybe someone who will be more responsive to your needs. But first things first, you need to take that big step and move away from this abuse.<P>I wish you well, keep strong and have faith. Things always have a way of working out in the long run. Take care Renae.

Renae:<P>Haven't posted to you for a few days, is your e-mail back up and running? If so, let me have your e-mail address again...I have some things I would like to share with you.<P>I used to be very legalistic/religious about divorce, saying that it is til death do us part and not til divorce do us part. God hates divorce! I was almost intolerant of those who divorced.<P>Over a year ago, somebody posted back to me here on MB and told me, "yes, God hates divorce but He doesn't hate those that divorce".<P>This changed my whole view of divorce, in fact after a 4 year separation in my marriage my wife and I divorced in March of this year. We were married for 33-1/2 years.<P>I have since found out that staying in a dead marriage, just for appearance sake, is as bad as divorce.<P>There is life after divorce Renae....God cares about you.<P>I know this isn't ethical to ask, but if I had your mailing address, I would send you my testimony (I was alot like your husband, but not as bad).<P>God has done such a transformation in me over the past 4-1/2 years, I really have something to say to men about marriage.<P>Submission is supposed to be 'mutual' - Eph 5:21 says we are to submit one to another out of fear/reverence for Christ.<P>Anyway......I look forward to your response.<P>[censored] from Texas

[censored],<BR>Yes, my e-mail is running: (deleted address) I sent you a message one evening; did you receive it?<P>Several months ago at a seminar, a local pastor taught about divorce, etc. I felt a ton of weight lifted from my soul (just in case my life ends up going that way!) <P>He explained that in Malachi where God says He hates divorce, the meaning there is how God FEELS about it, which is understandable since God is Love and desires us to live together in loving relationships. He said<BR>God is not absolutely opposed to it, for in Corinthians Paul writes that a wife is permitted to separate, and God also provided for divorce in the Mosaic Law! <P>I'm reminded that Jesus explained that divorce was provided for by God because some hearts are hard (resistant to change & growth). Apparently God thinks some situations are so intolerable that He provides a way out,preferring us to live peaceably. <P>I need to study all the material from that seminar in more detail, but it sure sounded like correct interpretation. Up until I heard this, I felt completely trapped in my situation, scared about the possibility of divorce, worried that I would lose God's favor and guidance in my life in the future. It was a heavy load to bear!!! <P>I had ordered tapes on spiritual abuse also, and for the first time, I felt another several tons of burden removed from my soul! It fit exactly with what I had been so painfully experiencing over the years! At last I knew what this is, that I'm not the only one dealing with this craziness, that my spouse's church contributed to my spouse's behaviors/attitudes, etc.<P>If it weren't for these two things, I would be sitting here legalistically thinking I have to stay here forever to please God, no matter how bad this gets. I thought I had no way out but physical death. <P>God is so wonderful to lead us to the truths that set us free!!! Reminds me of the old hymn--"Wonderful GRACE of Jesus, greater than all my sin, how can my tongue describe it, where shall my praise begin!!!..."<P>"Whom the Son sets free, he shall be free in deed"!!!!<P>You may e-mail your testimony if it is possible!!<P>Great to hear from you, [censored]! <P>In Christ,<BR>Renae <P>P.S. [censored], I still hate divorce as God feels too, but my spouse's heart is so resistant to change, growth, and healthy relationship, and he is so abusive, that I may have no other option. I'm trying separation first to allow for the possibility of a miracle. <P>That pastor also said that the specific grounds upon which God allows for divorce, he allows for remarriage also. This pastor will not participate in someone remarrying if their past divorce was not allowed Biblically. <P>Some people incorrectly use the "spiritual abuse" term to cover all emotional upsets. Also, some folks in the "grace" theology spread grace much broader than God ever intended too. <P><BR>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 29, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited August 25, 2000).]

I need to vent!!!! He's been so cruel in the last 24-48 hours...cutting me down in front of the kids again and again. He won't stop it. <P>He continues to work hard and is burnt out; when he's like this, he scowls that I don't work as hard as he does, etc. He's always been this way, that if you're not doing the exact same job he is, then you aren't working and aren't working hard. What I do is not appreciated.<P>Yesterday he was showing me jobs he did recently and wanted me to praise him....<BR>friends, that is so HARD for me to do now!<BR>I feel nothing for this man who continually abuses me!!!! But it is so pitiful, he is such an immature child, asking me to praise him when our marriage is dead and he does nothing about that!! He just doesn't know any better, that's all. <P>I had cleaned the basement yesterday, as we are getting company on Wednesday from out-of-state. My spouse had a total disaster there and has for the past two years. I've been more than patient with it, but the spider webs were taking over, and it was time to do something. I was very careful to sort things into appropriate piles. It's all sitting out in view, not put away as I want it, but I didn't want him to get mad. Well last night he saw the cleaner basement and immediately assumed that I had moved his stuff to where he would not find it. He would not let me show him how easy it all is to find, but verbally exploded at me, pulled up on the front of my shirt and snarled angrily at me to leave his stuff alone. "I feel violated and offended by you!" (He was saying these words, to put back on me what he does to me. His big thing now is to accuse me of being the abuser, that it is not him. This is typical behavior of abusers, which I'm aware of but it doesn't feel good to go through this! The kids heard and saw this....<P>A previous night, the kids & I got home from a store, and he was fuming mad. He had a project he wanted to do and I had not been home to help when he decided to do it. He had not planned with me beforehand when he was going to do this, but just expects me to always be home, so if he spontaneously wants to do something, I'm there. He's always been like this, too. I've tried my best to be home most of the time, but with company coming and school starting soon, I was out shopping. I think it's unfair to expect me to never leave the house; he should plan things with me for a certain time if he wants my help. I think if I've had to adjust to his spontaneity, then he could adjust some to my need for a plan and time once in a while! But remember, everything is his way only!!!!!!! <P>I am so anxious for all the business to get done so I can have my own employment, home, and life on my own, not having to be around him at all. But this is a slow process.<BR>When he was scowling at me last night, I just stood there silent and numb. <P>Renae<P><BR>

Not that I know very much about how to help you ... But, I'd be very frightened about having H or anyone else grab me by the shirt and pull me up. Has his abuse ever been physical? If he hits you, things take on a whole new dimension. Would he hit the girls? Be careful.

Thanks for your caring note, Moe.<BR>Yes, he has been physically abusive, though not as often as the other abuses. The physical abuse is like pushing, grabbing, pulling or ripping my clothes, chasing after me, restrains my arms (like pulling them up behind my back and demanding me to submit, or blocks me from leaving the room when I'm frustrated with his behavior. He has thrown small items at me, spanked me like a child, thrown a quart of water at me, and a few months ago, he punched me in the jaw and was posed to do more but I got away. Most of this happens out of his own inner frustration with issues unrelated to me at all.

Hello Renae,<BR>I tried posting yesterday, but it didn't take.<P>You need to get out now before the abuse gets worse. This is not only spiritual abuse but it is also physical and emotional abuse. For your daughters' sake, leave NOW.<P>Why should you finish the business work before you leave. Let him do it. Maybe then he'll realize what he's been taking for granted for so many years.<P>Separation and divorce were somethings that I would never have advocated to anyone. I always thought things could be worked out but I guess I was wrong. I'm also considering leaving H. He just doesn't seem as committed to me as I was to him. He forgets me as soon as someone else comes into the picture - either his family, friends or clients. I'm tired of being last.<P>Have the courage and strength to go on and know that whatever steps you take will make you a better person in the long run. Take care Renae.

If he is physically abusive of you out of his own frustrations, as you have described, you really need to leave. He may do the same to your daughter someday, or harm you more than he already has. There are safe houses for abused women, if you do not have family or friends who could help you. It sounds like you are in danger. Many women who are treated like you have been do not leave their H because they feel like they deserve to be treated badly. Sometimes women don't leave, and things become fatal for someone in the relationship. I do not believe that all the teachings or efforts to save a marriage apply when there is abuse like you have had. Ask you pastor or someone like that who may know how to help you. Moe

I grew up in a home where my father was a good man. He was a lousy husband and father.<BR>If you looked at everything this man did for everyone else, he would definintely have been a good man. But... as an unloved, unwanted child, he had nothing to draw from to enable him to be a kind, loving husband and father.<P>I didn't realize then everything I know now. I just thought men were difficult. This was, in part, because I could see how the world, including other Christians, saw my father as a good man.<P>Therefore, I married a man like him. A man who was unable to meet my emotional needs. Just as my father had been unable to meet the needs of his wife (who stayed with him till his death at 58), my husband could not meet mine. He was, like my dad, wrapped up in self and sickness. <P>And I fought like crazy to save my marriage. I failed at that task - it takes two to build and save a marriage- but I gained my self. It didn't thrill me when I knew it was over - just as it didn't thrill God. But, when confronted in a biblical manner with his error, my x wouldn't change. And at that point, we may treat the hurtful individual as an unbeliever. And God, our loving Heavenly father, wants us to have peace and with abusive, Bible-thumping unbelievers (yes, Bible-thumping unbelievers) we can't have peace.<BR> <P>With this in mind, think of the example you set before your children - if you have any. Do they need to see how this man treats you and to later model this behavior (yours or your husbands) in their adult lives. Or do you need to build for them a safer, saner life? <P>A woman who is beaten into a pulp emotionally or physically can't do a good job as a mother. She just doesn't have the energy or the strength. I've been there.<P>There are churches, private organizations, and other sources to which you can turn for help. <P>What are you building for the future? For your children?

Moe, cinderella, & lonelywife:<BR>Thank you for your posts! I always thought things could be worked out too. But that is with reasonable, spiritually, emotionally, and relationally mature peopple. My spouse obviously doesn't fit that category, sad to say. Sometimes he is close to "getting it" but sinks back into his comfortable immaturity. <P>Last night, 12 midnight, he starts a talk with me and I told him I could not talk long because I have alot to do tomorrow in preparation for company coming Wed.<BR>He ignored this and went on for over two hours...It could have been longer but I just went to bed and plugged my ears!! <P>I thank God for how he gave me strength to stand up to the stuff he said. He is hurting very much, he says, and I'm too selfish to care. (LW, like you say, "Go figure!" <P>Anyway, he kept on accusing me of things that don't fit what's going on at all. He assumes and thinks it's God telling him this about me. I told him this false accusing is of Satan, not God! I said in a healthy relationship you would ask me about my motives, what I think, how I feel, not<BR>define me based on your assumptions. I said, the stuff you say about me proves you don't know me at all to assassinate my character like this!<P>What a battle! He's so narrow-minded!<P>~Renae<P>

Renae:<P>I get sicker and sicker with each new response from you concerning your husband.<P>I really feel the last post from Cinderella should be seriously considered..she had some excellent insight.<P>You mentioned he physically restrained you, like pulling your arms up behind your back; has he ever tried to tie you up?<P>Like I said yesterday, I recently learned that you have to 'earn your way out of a relationship' - that you have no right to just walk away.<P>By earning your way out, I mean you have to have turned over every stone and made every attempt at reconciliation. Once you have done this with no change in the other person, then I feel you can walk away.<P>I believe you have done this, you have gone the 2d, 3d and even 4th mile with him.<P>You really sound like a nice person who doesn't deserve this sort of treatment.<P>[censored] from Texas

He has never tied me up. But he has always been VERY over-reactive. He won't admit that, but instead entirely blames circumstances, which true, have been difficult. The spiritual/emotional/ relational problems in him, however, have been there LONG BEFORE any of these circumstances occurred!!! <P>But to be fair to him, could you review these circumstances to understand more of what we've been through? (THANKS!) <P>********************<BR>(Note: I wrote this for [censored] and a few others to know more of my story. After they read it, I deleted it from the board.<BR>~Renae)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited August 10, 2000).]

I need to vent...I am just furious!!!!! Now he claims that he never promised me to cooperate with separation, allowing the kids and I to live in this house!! <P>I reminded him that he was supposed to leave me alone after August 1st. I said I don't want him coming around like he did the other night and harrassing me. He answered that he isn't harrassing me, just wants to "discuss" things in a marriage. I said this is separation time, not discussion in marriage time. I said, "also you did not come here the other night to "discuss" anything! You allowed no dialogue. You were preaching, falsely accusing and defining my motives and character to be what it is not." <P>He's been treating me very sick this morning. He is denying a bunch of other stuff that he said to the kids and I. Our daughter told him what he said, but he denied it to her too. He lied to her!!!!! <P>I'm seriously thinking of getting an order where he has to leave. Or I could just move on, get my stuff packed, get a job and apartment and leave. I'm tired of being swung around by him. He's crazy!!!! God, help the kids and I!!!!!!! <P> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited August 05, 2000).]

The pressure from my spouse not to separate is crushing me. He is more controlling than ever. He thinks I'm going by my "feelings" and not by principles, but he does not understand the principles I have to use with him!!! I made it clear to him last night that I need to separate immediately and if he isn't getting out of the house as he promised, then I wiil have to find a place to move to.<P>He is demanding that he drive our family to my family's reunion in a couple weeks. I need to be away from him and to enjoy my relatives. He has cut me and my relatives down so much to me over the years that he doesn't deserve to be there acting like he's so part of the family. <P>He won't leave me alone when I'm hurting so bad from him. Last night he was humilating me in front of the kids again too.<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited August 07, 2000).]

Renae<P>Just checking in with you....doesn't your husband get the message????<P>How long are you going to tolerate this abuse? You are not a dumping ground and the time for talking is long past.<P>Are you asking him to leave and he is refusing to? Or, are you and the kids going to leave.<P>Whatever you do...you must, must get away from this man.<P>If you want to vent and just want a sounding board...feel free to e-mail me if you don't want to share it here on your thread.<P>Your husband is in total denial and I feel for your mental,emotional,physical and spiritual well-being you need to totally cut off all communication with him for now.<P>This might be easier said than done, especially if he is still present. Just remember the words from Provers:<P>"It is an honor for a man to cease from strife" - but here is the one I want you to really get ahold of:<P>"Where there is NO wood, the fire goeth out"<P>Just think of your words/replies to him as wood....if you stop feeding his fire, perhaps he will go out.<P>Maybe or maybe not...but perhaps he will get tired of just hearing himself rant/rave when you refuse to respond.<P>Your friend and brother in Christ from Texas,<P>[censored]