Please bear with me, because I’m going absolutely crazy right now.

I have joint/shared custody of my 3 girls. X is living with a man, who also happens to be like the head EMT for the county. Over the past couple weeks my X and oldest daughter (almost 13) have been having some real issues and on more than one occasion my OD has called and asked me to get her out of that place.

So, last Tuesday, my X and OD got into it again. OD was told to drop her drawers and spanked repeatedly. They showed up to exchange kids and I heard part of the story. When we got home I got the rest of the story and asked my OD to see if she had any marks. She did. I then looked at the marks and immediately saw 4 finger sized welts forming. I called and talked to law enforcement in my county (btw we live in neighboring counties) and he advised me to have them photographed and bring it to him for his opinion. So I do that and the photo’s were taken 1.5 hours after the incident.

Then Wednesday, I get the photo’s developed and what I didn’t originally see was the mark that my X’s thumb had left. I seriously almost puked. Well, that night I went to the police department and turned everything over to them. The officer supposedly showed them to the County Attorney who said it wasn’t child abuse but normal discipline. Then today I just found out that he supposedly showed them to the City Prosecutor for possible battery charges and she didn’t feel that it was battery.

I am absolutely beside myself right now. If I were to touch my X out of anger and leave a red mark for 10 minutes, I’d be arrested. Heck, if a cop saw me hit my dog, I’d probably get a ticket. Yet, in the name of discipline, you can beat the crap out of your children leaving welts for over 1.5 hours. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I don’t believe I’m over-reacting here, please someone tell if I am. I really believe that I’m stuck in a case of “good old boy”. I’m quite sure that all the Law Enforcement Officer’s know Mr. Man and he’s probably trained them on first aid.

Well, yesterday, I did go start action with SRS, so atleast some follow-up will occur. The first person I talked too seemed extremely surprised that the county didn’t press charges. Then, I just talked to the case worker and she was at a loss.

I put in a call to the City Prosecutor, maybe she can tell me what constitutes battery in the great state.

Bill,
I'm so sorry your children, and you, have to endure this. It's hard to believe that no one would briing charges. Is there no way for you to bring the charges??

How about child protective services? I called them when my x left my son then 7-8 alone in a car sleeping while she went into a mall. They said this bordered on abuse and to report her if she ever did this again.

It seems the local police don't want to get involved in things, especially domestic issues, unless it involves spouse abuse.

My d got a suggestive and graphic email and I went to the police and they wouldn't do anything. They told me I had a problem at home. I told them I could take care of things at home but needed their help to take care of things on the other end. They wouldn't do anything. I ended up calling the FBI and faxing the info over to them.

Hang in !

Hi,

I am shocked. Marks were left. Plus the person made them take their clothing off. How sick is that?

Personally I would go to the prosecutors office and not leave till you got an answer. Try and do it in a nice way. Becuase you want them on your side. You are doing what you need to do. If you have to go to the court and ask for full custody have everything documented. I am not clear did your ex-wife do this or her new "man".

If he did this and was an EMS person you could maybe embarrass him into not being around your children again. Such as I will go to the press. That might back fire. Can you not go to the court for an emegency hearing? Get it documented the abuse they go through. A spanking should never leave marks!
I am so angry just thinking about it. So I can not even imagine how you feel. Your poor children. I will pray for you and them and that justice is done.

Bill,

I have no experience with this just wanted to offer prayers to you and your kids.

There was a thread a while back with a lot of good information concerning what is going on with your kids. I can't remember if it was on DV or GQ board. MIM needs that too, so I will try to search & then do the link if I find it.

God Bless,

D.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MoiNouvelle:
<strong>I am not clear did your ex-wife do this or her new "man". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was my X that did the spanking. I have no idea if he was home at the time or not.

I just fired off an e-mail to the Attorney General's office to see "What Constitutes Abuse or Battery" along with the statement that I gave to the local police department.

Dear Bill,

I'm sorry that you have to go through this. I don't have any experience in this except for what I have been trained on thru DSS for a child care license.

There should be a 1-800 number in the front of your yellow pages for Child Abuse. It should be there but we live in different states.

I would call and report it to the Child Abuse Department at Dept of Social Services today.

They have to investigate all claims within 48 hours. You probably should have started there because they are obligated by law to follow up.

I don't know the whole story, I remember when your exW was going to have this guy move in, I don't know what the story is, are they dating? If not, why does he come for drop off's, that is a weird situation for your d's to see.

Anyhow, regardless, I don't understand how the police wouldn't do a thing. Next time I would consider taking the child right to the police and demanding to see the person in charge, and filing charges.

I will see what I can find out from Daycare Regs, but it's probably different because we live in different states.

Dana

I don't know...we went throught the same thing this weekend...however my exH took the kids, so I wasn't able to take pictures or anything.

I did call my lawyer tho--and he was no help.

To make matters worse my exH just emailed me and said that "it is time to put this behind us and do what is best for the kids".....RIGHT...what an absolute jerk. Emotional and physical abuse, cussing and swearing is good for the kids????

He is one sick cookie....and the sad part is...he has convinced himself that everyone else is dysfunctional...and he is the only rational person. Yuck.

I am putting him in the delete file...I have had enough of his horsepoop.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: miserynmissouri ]</small>

Even if they did not feel that it is prosecutable abuse it certainly is a situation that would warrant intervention. Here in NM I’d take it to Child Protective Services. While they may not press charges, they would make your ex start taking anger management classes and such things.

I believe that having the child pull down her pants brings this to a totally different level. It is inappropriate for your wife to have her do this. You really should find out if the ‘man’ was around when it happened because to force a young girl to disrobe in front of a man is sexual in nature and therefore constitutes sexual abuse. I had something similar happen to me when I was 12. My mother had me do the same thing while one of my father’s male friends was at our home. It was, and still is, one of the most humiliating things that have ever happened to me. To this day I cannot forgive my mother for doing it. If your daughter feels humiliation, confusion, or other such feelings you may want to take to see a counselor.

You may also want to write your ex a letter telling that you feel that this situation was totally inappropriate. Your daughter really needs someone to advocate for her in this situation.

Thank you all for your support and validation. Just so that everyone knows, I have reported this to "Social Rehabilitation Services" and there will be some type of investigation.

I am waiting on a call back from the City Attorney to discuss the matter with her and I have written my State Attorney General.

I am also thinking of writing a "Letter to the Editor" to raise some awareness. I'm just dumbfounded over the whole situation.

Bill,

{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}

Be sure you keep copies of those pictures in case you have to take her to court for custody. Having your daughter take her panties off is sick and digsuting...I have a 13 year old myself and I wouldn't dream of doing that to her. It is sexual abuse in my opinion and your x needs her head examined.

Love.

(((((Bill)))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t believe I’m over-reacting here, please someone tell if I am. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO WAY!!! Go to the end of the earth to protect your children and I know you will.

I'm ignorant regarding Joint Custody so bear with me, I can't understand why you would have to send your daughter back to a parent who has inflicted bodily harm without intervention or investigation. Then I've thought of your two other girls. Did they witness this outburst of anger also? All three of them must think they are living a nightmare and they are awake.

Are your girls in counseling? I think a trip to the counselor immediately is a must for your oldest.

Turn over all the boulders you can. Be a royal pain in everyone's A$$ until you are heard and get results!

Children do NOT have to live this way, it's a crime!

Gayle

P.S. And that "good old boy stuff" would make me furious! It's SO obvious!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ragamuffin:
[QBAre your girls in counseling? I think a trip to the counselor immediately is a must for your oldest.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have all three of my girls in counseling. I called the counselor and got my OD set up for the first available appointment. When I told the counselor what had happened she was totally in shock.

Y'all ain't going to believe this Mayberry crap. I just called and talked with our city prosecutor. After a little while she recalled the officer talking with her about the case. I asked if she had seen the photo's and she had NOT. She went on to tell me how hard it was to prove a parent/child battery case.

After we talked for a while she offered to sit down with me next week, when she gets the police report and photo's, to go over the complaint.

So tell me, how in the world in good concience could she have made the determination not to file charges without looking at the evidence.

THAT'S MESSED UP.

Can you focus your thoughts on her actions and not your anger? Perhaps you and your X should go to counseling to discuss appropriate discipline.
I haven't finished Mom's House/Dad's House but this and other books have suggestions on how to deal with these issues.

I also finished reading "children are from Heaven" by John Grey. Spanking is not appropriate, and it just shows the child that the parent is out of control. It's a great book.

I hope you can make this better for your children in the future, and not just focus on this one event. I shows you just how stressed your X was.

Bill --
I don't know your story.

Are you sure this is worth pursuing to this extent?

I'd like to hear the whole story. What was the cause of this problem between your Ex-W and the daughter. You're making this sound like your Ex-W is 100% at fault. Did your daughter have a role in this problem?

Have you ever had a problem with the discipline issue before?

I don't really want to debate about whether or not spanking is appropriate. The last poster was quoting John Grey, well I could sit her and quote James Dobson who says you're not doing your children any favors by not disciplining them.

I just wonder Bill, if you're taking this as an opportunity to remove your daughters from their mother. Is this about revenge, or do you truly believe that your daughters are suffering in their mothers care?

You've opened a can of worms by involving CPS and SRS etc. Have you even tried discussing the situation with Ex-W, before starting this whole process?

What do you hope to accomplish?

Do you want your Ex-W to be prosecuted????

Do you want complete custody?

Do you want to abolish the relationship between your daughters and their mother?

Just be aware that you are unlikely to break the bond between them, and although you believe you are acting in the best interest of your daughters, this may come back to haunt you. You may end up looking like the vindictive bad guy.

Your Ex-W and your 13 year old daughter are going to have problems. Its in the nature of the mother-daughter relationship!!! I have a daughter that age too.

I just wonder if rushing her to counseling, and calling all law enforcement is what you really want to do. Is your daughter comfortable with what you are doing?

Your Ex-W is going to have a very strong reaction when she discovers that you have reported her.

Are you sure this is the course of action you want to follow?

Like I said, I don't know your story -- have you had differences of opinion on discipline before? Have you ever discussed it?

(ok -- flame suit it on -- go for it!)

Hi Bill...

I've been praying for you on this one... and I know you're not going to like this but honesty is the best policy... take deep breath before you read...

Lexxxy has some good points here </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you hope to accomplish?

Do you want your Ex-W to be prosecuted????

Do you want complete custody?

Do you want to abolish the relationship between your daughters and their mother?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's tough to reflect on these... especially the first one.

I emphatically believe your EX-wife's actions did get out of hand.

John Grey does talk about not laying a hand on children and Dobson also talks about the appropriate spanking... but NEVER a teenager. That is humiliation and a complete force of control.

You do need to do something...but please be careful. CHECK your motivation and pray without ceasing on this... Yes, school time is right around the corner and yes, you'd like to get things settled, but remember your children first not your anger... what is in their best interests.

You have been and will be the stable one here... maintain that role. By all means investigate things... but go slow and methodically and not fast and make erratic decisions (not saying you are but the pace has a lot to do with how effectively we make decisions).

Okay, now I say this and you KNOW I care... we've logged time talking about this 1:1 so please... do not be offended and just take a breath and let's talk... Remember your other girl's are watching how you handle this... are you steady and reliable or are you going to "hurt" their mommy with your anger, actions and words. Got to see it through their eyes...

Ciao "..."

Nicole

Newly & Lexxxy, thank you for your comments.

(ok -- flame suit it on -- go for it!)

And no flame suit is required, I want to hear opposing views. So newly, I&#8217;m just going to go through your list and answer your questions.

&#8220;&#8221;Are you sure this is worth pursuing to this extent?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Yes, I am. If I show anger, the anger is only over the pain and humiliation that my daughter suffered. Plus my biggest fear is that this is only the tip of ice berg. How will she discipline next time?

&#8221;&#8221;I'd like to hear the whole story. What was the cause of this problem between your Ex-W and the daughter. You're making this sound like your Ex-W is 100% at fault. Did your daughter have a role in this problem?&#8221;&#8221;

My oldest daughter wanted to play on the computer. Her mom told her that was fine as long as one of her sisters watched her. OD asked sisters and they said no. (I&#8217;m sure that this upset OD). OD sat on the floor with YD and started messing around. She then sat on YD leg. YD started crying. Some words were exchanged and OD went with mom. More words were exchanged and OD was sent downstairs. Mom then called her upstairs. They talked for a moment and then in front of her sisters Mom told OD to drop her drawers and spanked her three times. There was more conversation and somehow my name was brought up and mom started bashing me. OD told her not to and mom said she could say whatever she wanted. Yes, I&#8217;m sure my OD had a role. I&#8217;m sure her mouth started writing checks her body couldn&#8217;t keep. But, that gives mom no right to humiliate her in front of her sisters or exercise that amount of force.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221; I just wonder Bill, if you're taking this as an opportunity to remove your daughters from their mother. Is this about revenge, or do you truly believe that your daughters are suffering in their mothers care?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

I see this more as an opportunity to get my X help. Get her some family services that will allow appropriate discipline. Are the children suffering, in certain areas the choices of their mom has lead to suffering. But would I try to take them away from her, probably not. In a speech given my James Dobson in the 70 he stated something like &#8220;WITHOUT CONTREVERSY THERE IS NO CHANGE&#8221;. I just want a change.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;You've opened a can of worms by involving CPS and SRS etc. Have you even tried discussing the situation with Ex-W, before starting this whole process?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

NO I didn&#8217;t, other than getting her story at the very beginning. Towards the end of our marriage my X became increasingly violent. And at the very end there were times where I just covered myself as she hit me. The escalation period wasn&#8217;t that long. I do not want this to escalate on my daughters.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;What do you hope to accomplish? &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;

I think I&#8217;ve covered that.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Do you want your Ex-W to be prosecuted???? &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;

If that is what it takes to bring about change, then yes.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Do you want complete custody? &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;

I want what is best for my girls. I want them to have stability, security, safety, and love. I want them to be taught respect, accountability, and responsibility. If there is a point when those lesson aren&#8217;t being taught or I fear for their safety, then yes.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Do you want to abolish the relationship between your daughters and their mother?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Again, I want what is best for my girls and I don&#8217;t believe that hate will bring that about. So I never talk down about their mother and I do everything possible to foster a relationship between their mother and them.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221; Your Ex-W and your 13 year old daughter are going to have problems. Its in the nature of the mother-daughter relationship!!! I have a daughter that age too. &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;

I totally agree but as the adult we have to show them the correct paths.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;I just wonder if rushing her to counseling, and calling all law enforcement is what you really want to do. Is your daughter comfortable with what you are doing?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

My daughters have been in counseling for the last 9-12 months. It&#8217;s brought them a long way back. Yes, I did contact their counselor immediately because there are issues on both sides that need addressed.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Your Ex-W is going to have a very strong reaction when she discovers that you have reported her.&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

As she should. Again with the hopes of fostering a change and eventually leading to a better life for my girls.

&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Are you sure this is the course of action you want to follow?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Yes! This wasn&#8217;t something that I rushed into. I thought long and hard about it. You have no idea of the pain in my heart for having to make this decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by OvrCs:
<strong>Okay, now I say this and you KNOW I care... we've logged time talking about this 1:1 so please... do not be offended and just take a breath and let's talk... Remember your other girl's are watching how you handle this... are you steady and reliable or are you going to "hurt" their mommy with your anger, actions and words. Got to see it through their eyes...

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((Nicole)) Thank you for your words and yes I ask the same from you that you ask from me, honesty.

My X grew up in a divorced home where her mother jumped from man to man. Not one of my X's sisters or her or her brother lived in the house past the age of 16. There was a lot of fighting and home life pretty much stank.

This is the legacy that I do not want passed on to the next generation. I see a lot of my X's actions as the only way that she knows or doing what she has been taught. I just want to break the cycle and ensure my children have long, rewarding, God fearing lives.

Thank you..

Hi Bill...

Well, yes... it sounds pretty bad. You were her knight in shining armour when you were 18 and she 16...

Friend, you have the right idea in mind... break the cycle from your Ex to your daughters... just be sure not to fight with ANY threats... fight fair and move forward firmly. Check your motive for any vendetta or vengeance... KNOW that you cannot force your wife to get help... you can protect your daughters tho. She has to make that decision herself.

Yes, controversy should cause a person to re-evaluate... that is IF the person is ready to. I know... it took me 11 years of marriage and this huge slap in the head to really think things through. My H always says... why did it take you this long to make a change? So, I don't know... I think the threshold is determined NOT by anyone else but between God and I. This is the process the Lord wanted me to go through in order to grow in character.

Hopefully Lisa will see the same in her own life... it's not a panacea to be in a man's arms... not yours and not her new boy toy's. It's intimacy that she's starving for... especially with her background. No one can meet that need except for God. AND she has to be the one to come to that conclusion...

Take care friend!

xoxox, (cheek kisses, of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
Nicole

Bill,

It sounds like this is prudently thought-out -- I was concerned that it was a rash reaction to the event.

I was also concerned that it was a one-time event, and that perhaps you were going to the extreme.

I would hope that me and my STBX would be able to discuss and agree. He's had issues with discipline, and I support him as best I can. I would hope that the first step with any concern would be a discussion between the two of us -- I guess however that your situation doesn't allow for a respectful discussion.

Bringing in CPS etc. would concern me, because I feel that you can easily lose control of your situation. I know that you're acting to protect your children, but they can choose to protect your children by taking them away from BOTH of you.

You could easily find yourself in a situation where you Ex chooses to retaliate for reporting her. False accusations are investigated just like true ones. And your girls could be removed.

I hope that doesn't happen to you Bill.