Hi,

Caught your post on "X from hell" - strange, we have both been here since '00, but I don't think we've ever crossed paths.

I've done some reading on PAS, and have formed certain views. I have a strong distaste for the fathers rights movement and the um, doctor I guess, that "discovered" the "syndrome"....

Not taking away from real issues of controlling parents that really don't allow contact with the non custodial parent...

I'd just like to hear more of your story.

It would be neat if you had time to email me!

Elizabeth

I'm reading my post again, and just want to clarify my "strong distaste for the father's rights movement" comment for those of you folks reading this who don't know me & my style and might take offense.

There is a little bit of a movement that facilitates the continuation of abuse and control of a woman under the guise of father's rights. They will use threats of custody, money, public humiliation, just about any dirty deed they can come up with in order to continue to maintain status quo - the upper hand - in the relationship and proceedings.

This isn't about Dads that love their children, it is about men that beat their wives.

This isn't about Dads that coach T-Ball, it's about men that sexually abuse 6 year old girls.

Clear? OK. Thanks.

E

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: justthewife ]</small>

Hi Elizabeth,

Yes, been on here since 2000. It was a rollercoaster ride until I decided to say, NO, I am done. For a long time, I didn't think I could really help on this board as I was still going through so much myself. I sort of did updates or posted once in a while, but have been a passive member for quite a while.

I had no idea I had been abused for most of my marriage. When I asked for a restraining order, STBX's attorney had me in for a 4 hour deposition on why I thought I needed one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It came out that he had never hit me, but I had decked him one time back in 1993. It took counseling and listening to the rest of my Domestic Violence support group to realize the depths and layers of damage that emotional and mental abuse leave.

He was physically abusive to my children, the oldest D much worse than the younger. the older D was mine from a previous marriage, he adopted her as another control issue in 1995. He and his mother played definite favorites with the "blood" daughter. When he left, he finally told me that the one reason he had married me is that he fell in love with my D (age 3 at the time). Yes, sends shudders down your back, doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My older D has been in counseling with one of the best in my county, there are more flags that there was more than physical abuse, too. I've spent the last two years trying to survive as STBX and his attorney fought about everything, and I do mean everything. STBX is a controlling monster who wanted to leave, yet once I said OK, decided he had to "have me crawling back to my parents with absolutely nothing". Well...I'm still here and I'm a bit overwhelmed at times, but I will get throutgh it all. My kids are doing great, especially now that there may be some consequences for STBX's abuse.

I laugh... he emailed me yesterday and mentioned his "staff" would prefer I didn't phone or come by the office of his new (old) job. I just wrote back and said I hadn't seen his "staff" since a Christmas party in 2001 and I had no reason to contact her or him. He has to put his demands out there even when there is no reason to do so.

The girls and I are just waiting for the DAs to have him picked up. Validation and accountability is one of the first things that we all need to heal. You are so correct on PAS, there really is no actual psychological term for it. As I said in my post to X from hell, how one can expect a person to control an older child to stop contact with another parent is downright rediculous in this day and age of technology. Now, a "cult" situation might be possible, but who has the time and energy to be that diligent in keeping kids away from phones and computers in a normal household type situation?

My stbx spent years trying to brainwash my kids against me. He told them over and over that I didn't want them, that the dogs meant more to me than they did, that I didn't have any friends, etc, etc. I'll say it took a few months of him being away to realize what was going on, but the kids were the first to bring it to my attention! My then 9 year old told me when I asked if it was OK with her if I dated again, that it was, I deserved a good man. When I asked her if it was OK for her dad to date, she said, NO... he doesn't deserve a woman. I about fell out of my chair and I asked her why she felt that way. She answered that he had never treated me right, so why should another woman have to put up with it?

People need to realize that kids may be younger, but they are usually more aware of what is actually happening than adults think they are. It really irritates me that my 11 year old has to be the adult around her father. He turns everything back on her and fortunately she has enough self esteem to realize that HE is the one with the problem, not her. The older D is going to take a lot longer to work through what happened to her, maybe one of these days we will know the extent of what happened. Me, it's been 2 years. I still have my moments of despair, but they are fewer. Do I miss the thought of being married happily ever after, yes, but I know for sure that my STBX was not the person who that could be accomplished with. I now keep the thought that I have to do it all myself for myself; once I know I will be able to get my life, house, and business back on track on my own, then I might think about a relationship.

I'll see if I can find sites about PAS and post them. I know that attorneys will use it as a way to get custody at times. That is one reason why it took so long to finally report abuse to the police. My stbx's attorney was one who would use PAS and try and get custody for him, even though mediators, counselors and others said there was abuse. I had to protect my younger daughter from that potentiality. Thankfully, once VOCC approved my older D's claim, it became a moot point as abuse had already been proven. Only THEN was I given the go ahead to file the police report. Not sure what all will happen now. STBX's attorney failed to put a 100 yard restraining order around my house in orders, so stbx kept coming around, the judge said there was many counts of abuse against older D and at least one on younger D, yet nothing was done. CPS has reports where stbx admitted to holding D off the ground.

Not a pretty story by any means.

Lori

Wow, thanks for your story.

I'm glad that you've gotten out and strong. It's a great example for your D's.

Too bad they can't fry em for abuse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

That PAS $hit makes my blood boil.

I'll keep your family on my little prayer list.

E

Hi there! (very long!!!) I can't tell you how many times I've read both of your posts. I've walked away...shut down my computer, come back again and re-read. I was angry, I was enlightened and I was also very confused...but if anything I really need to examine why I had all those feelings.

Bangerra....I am in a living nightmare with a controlling narcissist. I have a restraining order -- have moved because of the controlling nature and violation of the Order (and his policeman *friends* did nothing). I too, had no idea about the extent of the abuse until I entered extensive counselling and worked with a Domestice Violence Group. Mine didn't *physically* hurt me...but when I realized all the times he slapped me in *fun*, kicked me in bed, forced sex on me...well you get the picture.

I am so very sorry for your daughter and other children having to deal with this man. I would think you feel pretty awful coming to recognize the extent of what he did to her. I too.... feel the same way with my children.

In reading your post I was surprised that you wrote back to this guy when he emailed you. The ONLY communication I have with my ex is about the children. PERIOD. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything that comes through the email that is other, I nicely print it out and add to my file for court. Men like this WANT attention. Even if it's negative, they believe in their minds that the only thing you do all day is think about *them*. Don't drop to his level. Print the email out, keep it in a file. Don't respond.

I wish to hell that my attorney used all the PAS history. He didn't. As for custody, I let my son go and live with him because he wanted to. The counselor feels it was for protection of me. PAS is incredibly hard to prove. It was happening years ago but never with a name. My ex's parents (father alienating the mother) were divorced. The same issues (restraining orders etc....) happened over 30 years ago. PAS is not a *new* diagnosis.

I agree that PAS *is* used loosely and of course when you come across men like my ex and your's (or vindictive ex wives), they will attempt to use whatever they can to manipulate and control the situation. They do not see anything wrong in their actions. I highly recommend the book "Divorce Casualties" by Dr. Douglas Darnell. If anything, it helped me recognize *my* part in the parenting problems there were and it also helped me to protect myself through all this ****. (I'm about to get the book Divorce Poison that was recommended on the other thread).

As for the 100 yard restraining order....if the guy wants to come around your house...he'll come around your house. If he has visitation with the children, he will use that excuse every time he breaches the Order. (Mine did, still does and nothing happens). Be sure that everything is documented, have a loaded camera at your front door and reliable neighbors that can be witnesses for you. All of this, at the end of the day, really doesn't matter when you have a vindictive ex.. but will prove there's a pattern if you *ever* need it. Your ex won't give a **** about a piece of paper. All they care about is control.

Parental Alienation is a REALITY. Unfortunately, as with any other thing in the world, you will always have a bad egg in the dozen that will use it to the best of their manipulative abilities. The father's movement that JustTheWife was mentioning is one of those groups that have a mission... and from what I know it's not "what's in the best interests of the children" it's more like "what's in it for me."

The MORE you learn (and we'll use the term PAS) the more you will be able to fight for your kids. I think that PAS research still has a ways to go and some things to be clearly defined. It's just like ADD years ago when people thought these children were *misbehavin* and just needed a good spanking to keep them in line. We've come a long ways now haven't we? (but JustTheWife....I understand where you're coming from with people using PAS clearly to manipulate and control)

As for kids being *able to make their own decisions*...hell...it took me 20 (TWENTY YEARS) to realize that what my ex was doing just abusive! I really thought that if *I* did what he said, or *changed* then things would be better. I NEVER would have been good enough. The house never would have been clean enough. I would never have looked good enough. His behavior is what the kids saw all the years of their life. How could I possibly believe they would see his behavior as being unhealthy? I am just coming to terms with how bad it really was. My children are seeing a *new me*. One that doesn't cower and has firm boundaries. I was a professional doormat doing everything at their father's and their bidding.

I have teenagers that have a father passing out cars, cash and allowing unlimited freedom without rules or boundaries . What teenager would want to leave that?

My youngest is at the age where she is developing healthy boundaries and has great self-esteem...the youngest of the three, she has far more wisdom than her 19 year old sister. (She too is the adult around her father) She is the one that isn't afraid to tell her father to keep his opinions to himself, tells him that she won't be put in the middle and that she just wants to spend time with him rather than having to *report* my activities. She is also living with me, watching and seeing *my* behavior and actions and learning healthy boundaries and communication skills.

The older two of course feel that in order to get their *stuff* they need to report to him. They have little self-esteem (dad tells them they are *stupid* on a regular basis)..... anyways...it goes on and on.

Sorry...it has been long. I don't know what it was that tripped me off with this thread. I think it was "that PAS $hit makes my blood boil." For months and years I thought that I was so wrong and I was the one that should be rotting in hell. PAS finally answered those questions. When I read Dr. Darnell's book, I literally cried the whole way through. It was like this man was sitting in MY house.... seeing MY life...watching what came out of my husband's mouth...and afterwards, after the split, he wrote verbatim what came next. For me, reading about PAS for the first time was like a lightbulb going off and finally lighting the whole room.

There has never been one case here in Canada sucessfully tried on grounds of PAS. It's a new concept here with very few counselors dealing with the fallout from a parent so bent on manipulation, brainwashing and control. It is very difficult for parents to get the support they need, thus people like me soaking up anything they can find out about it.

Do I think that it could be a bad thing (PAS)? Sure...just like anything else that can be construed to meet another person's sick needs. BUT....for me, PAS and it's related websites, books and talking to people experiencing the same thing... helped me keep in contact with my children and deal with the sick manipulations of my ex husband towards OUR children. Will it ever end? Probably not. He was sick and abusive all my years with him, he's not likely going to change...but what HAS changed is my *reaction* to what he does.

Does it work all the time? He!! no! Every day is a step forward...and that's all I can count on.

Thanks for letting me vent....thanks for sharing your stories.... and yup! I feel wayyyyyyy better!

{{{Elan}}}

I think Justthewife clarified that she didn't like the PAS movement allowing monsters to get their children, but that she felt it was a case in your type of situation. I know I was frustrated by my stbx and his attorney throwing PAS at me; they were definitely in the 1st category. What your ex is doing is wrong, and you are doing everything in your power to try and correct that. It is devastating for any person to go through.

It does make the protective maternal instincts go on full alert, doesn't it? Yes, you are correct in that years of watching how their father reacted and the results of his actions gave the children an idea of what they thought was acceptable behavior. My 15 year old used stbx's ways to try and push my buttons, she'd seen it work with him, so she thought the same. Thankfully, I'm at a much healthier frame of mind and see it for what it is. It took almost a year of support groups and counseling for me to be strong enough to go through her counseling.

We've all come many miles from where we were 2 years ago! I posted on another thread that sometimes one has to get away from the abusive situation to really see what was happening. It sounds like after 20 years, that is what happened with you, I know after 10 years, it is my story.

My stbx is also Narcissistic Personality Disorder and he is getting more and more noticeably deranged the past 2 years. I really worry sometimes how far he will go. As far as answering his email, most times I do exactly as you say, just print it out and keep it for future reference. I try to have no contact at all, period.

We love our kids and it rips us apart to know that what is happening to them isn't the way life should be. Thankfully the younger ones keep it all in perspective and we know we've done a good job with them. For a good note... my younger D doesn't have to do the 8 hour visit this weekend, she will be set up to see stbx only in counseling for some time. Prayers and good thoughts for you!

Lori

Thanks {{{Lori}}}...I knew I took what E said the wrong way (sorry E!). I'm pretty tired of people saying it's not possible for kids/parents to be this way when I live it every day.

You were saying your stbx has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I've been wondering if my ex is like that and has been all these years. Isn't that what *abusers* really are? Anyways...I recently read a site (could have been you that recommended it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) The website is written by Alexandra Nouri. In it she states different "strains of Narcissistic ex-mates." One in particular is "The Lyme Disease Narcissist - He goes away, but not until you've employed radical defense routines for months and then you're left with bothersome lasting reminders of the experience. If you were married and have kids together, he'll make your divorce proceedings a livinghell just like he did your marriage. He'll act like he can't wait to get rid of you, and then stall and impede the divorce as much as humanly possible just to make sure you know who's in control. And that's BEFORE the real nightmare begins with the custody arrangements. You need to stay as strong as a pillar of rock to get through it, and then you still have to deal with him until the kids are grown." Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

I'm glad to hear that your younger D can see him in counselling. My ex told the judge, "there is nothing wrong with my kids, they don't need counselling." The judge court ordered 10-sessions for the younger 2. Our S quit after he moved in with Dad and has never returned. The youngest D (with me) continued to go. Was the BEST thing for her. I pray daily that our S will seek counselling or that something significant will happen to bring him around. Yep....rips your heart apart, but there is only so much one can do.

(((((Elan)))))

Sorry I ticked you off. I wish I didn't have tingly fingers today, and I'd type out a long one about all the slimy stuff I've read...

I followed this story about a guy with $$$ that sexually abused his children and got custody of them by using PAS - so evil.

That is how my interest started.

Yes, PA is real. I understand, hard to grasp for me, like I explained, but I understand. So foreign to my heart.

It's the use of it by the evil ones that makes it PAS $hit... The ones that use it to cover their tracks, and continue abuse & control. Like it was used on Lori, that is why I said that.

E