Hello friend,

I hope every thing is alright with you. You need to take care of your issues first before anything else.

I did send you an e-mail, hope you've gotten it.

I think I understand your comments about the angre issue.

The fact of the matter is, my wife used to push me to that point, I used to get annoyed by that. However, I had always admitted when I am wrong and apologized.

Believe it or not, my wife never ever apologized for any thing she did wrong. At times I felt that she is the boss of the house. If I wanted to stand my grounds we end up in a fight, and if I chose to ignore it, she still makes comments that I should have handled it. I know I may sound that I was always right and she was alwyas wrong. That's not true, I did try my best to hear her out, to talk to her at any appropriate time. But it goes back what you and I had discussed. You can't get into someone's head if the chose to shut you off.

AD,

I have a question of my own about me.

After the incident on March, I began to question myself about why did I react the way I reacted that night by hitting my wife back (one time only), even though she hit me before and I did not react at those times.

Was it because I felt embarrassed that she hit me this time infront of her parents, was it because I had enough of this disrespect ? I do not know. As I noted in my previuos postings on April that I took immediate action to deal with me and prevent me from ever reacting this way.

My question is, am I considered an abussive husband even thoug I never ever did that to my wife for 11 years until that night? It was a reaction not an aggression on my part.

My wife hinted that statistics show that abussive men do hit again (in 30% of the cases). I tried to tell her that I am not one of them and refuse to be classified that way. But deep inside of me I am disappointed at myself. I am a professional engineer and a college professor and should have never brought myself down to that level.

Please AD can you elaborate on this for me?

Write me soon. Also, read the e-mail I sent you, it has my full name and phone numbers.

Thanks friend.

AHA

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: aha ]</small>

aha,

There are many books about anger managment and abuse issues. It is a topic which has been pretty thuroughly covered. I can't say if you would be considered "abusive" as a result of this one incident. Some would say yes, others no. I personally don't think so. Your W's parents were there. What do they think?

Some people believe in applying labels to everybody - and if they can find one fault, will apply a label to a person (especially a man) for life.

-AD

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Her family were disappointed at what happened. But they saw every thing and they were disappointed at my wife. They told her that she should not have done so, and that she pushed me to my limits. Of course, my wife did not see it that way.

The other thing is. If I knew that my wife was going to hit me I would have avoided that or tried to restrain her. But she absolutly snuck up on me and hit me with out any notice, and that's what really got me upset.

By the way. I was told by her firends that she is planning on attending church starting this weekend. Will see who that goes.

I truly feel exhausted and do not have any desires to try any more. I feel that the ball is in my W court, and this time she should make the next positive move, including admitting that she was wrong. Without her willingness to do so, she can't get over any situation. She also need to deal with her issues at a professional level. And I do not think I am willing to risk any thing until my wife shows me some positive signs.

AHA

aha,

I hope that your W will, in fact, attend church. Will she come to the same church that you attend? Will you, with your son, be together there?

I really think that if you give your W time and avoid "lovebusters" and don't pursue her - that she will make the move toward you.

I am afraid that your W does not respect you.

Still even if she has some disrespect for you, surely she would respect your professional standing. And, of course, I cannot at all understand how she can walk away from her son.

So, I think there is good reason to expect her to move closer to you at some time. Just keep trying to be your best - avoid hurting her in any way - be a good father - and listen to her whenever she does make an attempt to communicate with you.

OK, I suppose that sounds like rather empty advise. There is no shortcut, no guarantee, unfortunately.

-AD

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

AD,

I have just finished talking to a professional counselor (Female). I gave her a background history of my marriage from start till now, including the events leading to the incident that took place 6 mo. ago. Her initial reaction was that my wife's behaviour is a new pattern or trend diplayed by women who had been abused in the past by other men (other than their current spouse). She said that in this behaviour, women tend to be aggressive toards their male companion, be pushy, daring, and intimidating. All for the sole purpose to push the male spouse to commit the very same thing they fear the most, that is to hit them, but this time they provoke this action. The reason is they tend to lack trust in men, and try to proof to themselves that their fears are valid no matter which man they are with.
She also indicated, that these men who are being pushed, like you and I for example, are never abussive, nor they grew up in an abussive environment, they just react to natural human limits of tolerance. She clearly indicated to me, that the men are actually the abussed not vice versa in these relationships.

I thought it was interesting, because at times I felt that my wife was trying to push me to my limits in hopes of me doing that. And when the incident happened, she went immediately to her ants (whom they have alot of respect for me) and told them 1/2 the story, portraing me as the aggressive one. It was not until few days later when they began to get the full picture of what happened and they sort of realized it was not just me. But unfortunatley, they still did not give her the right advise to take care of her issues.
The lady counselor did tell me that unless my wife will take a stand in dealing with her past, things may never change, and she will still act the same way. She also indicated that my wife's behaviour will be consistent with any other man no matter who they are, she will always feel the same way, unless she can deal with her issues and take the time to address them and go through the long healing process.

AD, I felt alot better about this now, and this just confirms my feelings, that the ball is in my wife's court now and she needs to make the next move if she really cares.

I hope this can also help you understand what is going on with you too.

Write me back friend.

AHA

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: aha ]</small>

aha,

I (mostly) agree with your counselor's assessment. I don't know if your wife really does this with the intent of provoking a response, but perhaps she does it because she viewed the abuser in their past as "powerful" and she (at least subconciously) wants also to be "powerful". But, in reality, it is only the weak who must act in this way. The truly strong, who is confident of his/her strength, does not feel the need to demonstrate it. This is true of nations as well as people and animals. The US does not send nuclear missles against every little country who offends it - because it is confident of it's strength. The lion swats the fly, but he does not roar at it.

-AD

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

AD,

I believe in my wife's case that she has the characteristics of abusive and violent woman.
* Psychological Disorder - primarily personality disorder, or Boarderline Personality Disorder (BPD). This disorder is often associated with suicidal behavior, sever mood swings, lying, sexual problems, faulse accusations, and even alcohol abuse (use of alcohol as self medication)
* Unrealistic expectations, assumptions and conclusions - experiencing repeated episodes of depression, anxiety, frustration and irritability that they tend to attribute to a man's behavior. In fact, their mental and emotional state is the result of their insecurities, emotional problems, and trauma during childhood. They blame men rather than admit their problems, take responsibility for how they live their lives or do something about how they make themselves miserable. They refuse to enter treatment, and insist the man needs it. Instead of helping themselves, they blame a man for how they feel and believe that the man should do something to make them feel better. And, when men can't make them feel better, these women become frustrated and assume that men are doing this on purpose.

So AD ~ are we talking about our wives ???

Write me soon.

AHA

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: aha ]</small>

AHA, I think Madame Counselor has pretty much nailed it, although her explanation begs the question of why it is so necessary for your wife to validate her fears that you are a bad guy.

The process Madame Counselor described is called "projective identification", and in this particular context it indicates that your wife is attempting to split off and disown her own internalized negative feelings about herself (which were presumably introjected as a consequence of her previous abuse experiences). You have become the "container" for those negative feelings. Your wife doesn't like feeling bad about herself, she doesn't want to feel bad about herself, and if she can convince herself that you are the one who is putting her down, then she thinks she will be able to escape her torment by escaping you.

Naturally, it won't work. Either she will figure that out eventually, or she will spend the rest of her life running from ghosts. My wife has repeatedly accused me of stalking her, and is experiencing so much distress that she dissolved into tears during a deposition as she accused me of harrassing her - even though at the time it had been more than a year since I had written her a letter (which I wrote specifically in response to her stalking allegations in hopes of assuring her that I was no threat), and more than two years since I had attempted to approach her or speak to her, except for one time (well over a year previously) when in the presence of her lawyer at the courthouse I attempted to give her some documents that the court had ordered me to provide her.

AHA, even if you had resisted your wife's provocation and thus failed to follow your wife's script, it's quite possible that your situation would be no different from what it is now. My wife decided after nearly twelve years of marriage that I had an abusive personality, even though she could not come up with a single example of anything I had actually done that was abusive. She pointed out that I had never experienced an "ultimate provocation" and thus could not know how I might react. On a couple of other occasions she expressed her concern that I harbored a deep inner rage, solely on the basis that I so rarely expressed anger. She figured that I must be primed for an explosion, and could not seem to comprehend the possibility that I am just not the angry type.

I am convinced that the main reason my wife has so completely cut off communication with me is that somewhere underneath her self-delusion she knows that I am so different from the monster she has constructed in her mind that the slightest contact with reality could cause her carefully constructed chimera to burst like a soap bubble.

We're dealing with some pretty serious and deep-seated psychological problems here, and late twenties to mid thirties seems to be a pretty typical age for past traumas to bubble up and create havoc. But I am not comfortable with applying the label of a personality disorder to someone without very careful (and professional) consideration. Severe internal or external stresses can induce emotional and psychological effects that closely resemble the symptoms of a personality disorder, but if those effects are not pervasive and apparently permanent (i.e. if the person has not always been that way, and with everyone), I personally am skeptical that a disorder is really the "explanation".

Of course, I'm not a psychologist...

aha,

I read what your counselor said and GnomeDePlume's comments. It may be helpful for you to consider it likely that your wife's problems were not caused by you - nor is her treatment of you "your fault".

But, I am concerned by any kind of "labeling". If a person says "my wife has BPD" - or "my husband is having a mid-life crisis", how does it help to inprove the situation? All we have done is label the other person as being "broken" or "defective" in some way. But still, she is your wife and you love her. If you tell her "you have BPD", what does it gain? So, as long as we use these ideas within ourselves in order to better understand our wives, these ideas may be useful, but if we try to use these ideas to escape responsibility just by saying "it's her problem" I think we are going in the wrong direction.

I'll give you an example. There was a meeting of a support group for people who had cancer. A man was there - standing in the back. One of the leaders of the group asked him "what kind of cancer do you have". He replied "I don't have cancer. My wife does". He went on to explain that she had been trying to get him to come to this group for some time but he didn't see the point. The leader replied "If your wife has cancer, and you have your wife, then you have cancer."

In the same way, I think that if GnomeDePlume's wife has BPD and your wife has some other condition, then GDP has BPD and you have whatever it is that your wife has. The husband and wife are united in marriage and share each other's burdens.

-AD

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Friends,

Relax. I am not trying by all means to label my wife or any one else. I just felt the need to share these information with the group here at MB.

I know better not to tell my wife any thing that could hurt her or offend her.

In fact, I am trying to see who I can raise the flag about the need for my wife to deal with her past with out offending her. I have yet to come up with a way to do so. I do not know what would be appropriate, to ask her mother to hep her, or to be patient and wait and see if she will take the intiative to do so on her own.

One thing I know for sure my feelings toward my wife are starting to fade away. Don't know what this means yet. Only time can tell.

Write me soon guys..

AHA

Aha,

Once again, I fear that I have written carelessly. Probably I should have said nothing. I know that you are trying to understand your wife and the counselor may well be right about her. I know you would not want to hurt her. I think you are a gentle man.

I'm sorry that your feelings for your W are fading. I still am amazed that she left her son as well as her husband. How is your son doing? Do you think you wife would agree to you having full custody in the event of a divorce?

Let me get back into the advise mode. OK?

If I look back over the time since my W moved out, I know that I made mistakes. Perhaps I can help you avoid some of them. I feel that if I had taken care of myself - had worked on being the best man that I can be, I would be in a much better situation today. My W would respect me more - even perhaps love me. It is hard to avoid being depressed. It is hard to do your job and take care of everything while your life is falling apart, but if you can do it, your wife will see it and it does make a difference.

-AD

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>