I thought that BPD was a personality disorder--not a mental illness, in that it is a set of learned behaviors and reactions that pretty much snowballs. IE--a human being that starts out being cranky from birth and learns to react to the treatment that he receives throughtout life from other people. Thus becomming crankier. Personality disorders--behaviors--are possibly modified by therapy. (The problem with BPD people-and narcissitic people, antisocial people--is that they deny that any problem lies within. They blame the world, and thus do not respond favorably to treatment of themselves.)

I thought that mental illness is a physical condition of the brain. Chemical imbalances. Synapse disfunction, ect.

My husband is a very high-functioning BP. It has been very difficult to understand him. I am just beginning to.

He cycles in moods--just the other day, we got into a horrible fight. He was all happy and gleeful, he had the day off and we were going to go downtown (Seoul) shopping together, just the two of us. So anyways, we get there, start looking around, and he transforms. He became stoney silent and began to walk 10 feet in front of me. I asked him why and he shouted "Because you walk to slow!" I asked him what the problem was, why he was being so nasty, and he said the problem was mine, he was trying to enjoy the day, and here I was, complaining like usual! When was he ever going to get a break from me? So I began harping (when will I ever learn?) on him for real. About how he is evasive and secretive and I can't stand it. (This was in the car.) That started the whole subject of his affair (yeah, yeah, I know.) He started shrieking about how I was a fat cow, if it wasn't for the kid, he would have shot me out of his life a long time ago, and then he told me to get out of the car and walk home. Which I did.

When I got home, he apologized. He was all happy and sunny again. After walking halfway across Seoul Korea before I found a subway station, I was not happy. I was still smarting about the "fat cow" comment and all the other horrible things that he said to me. (I won't elaborate--you wouldn't believe it.) I had given him the silent treatment for the last couple of days.

This morning, he totally denies ever calling me a fat cow or saying all the things he did, in fact, say. He can't understand why I am being so grouchy towards him. Of course, our problems now are my fault because I a)make things up b)am b**chy.

Typical BPD scenario.

My husband is far from being a mental case--he is very intelligent and very competent. He just sees things the way he sees them--and feels things the way he feels them. Usually fluxuating between feeling like master of the universe, then feeling like, as he says, a real punk. A loser. (That's usually because of me.)

Sometimes I feel that my main roles as wife are, in this order a) housekeeper b) nanny c) scapegoat.

Anyways, believe it or not, most BPD's mellow with age, which I am finding to be true (so don't loose hope.) Otherwise, I would probably be posting on this side of the forum a lot more often.

Moving On with Life - Hope all's going well with you, any developments?
Hi Bernzini - Yes, Borderline Personality Dis. is a personality disorder, but can still be treated like a mental illness with drugs and therapy. In fact, the Tegretol alone helped my mother to almost stop completely her violent screaming rages. Yay!!

As far as how BPD manifests, no one is sure yet. Some people who have it were violently abused as children/teens. Some were not abused at all. And, I've read that Approx. 20% of adopted children have BPD. Also, a majority of the people diagnosed are women. Some question whether men who have symptoms are automatically given an anti-social personality disorder diagnosis.

Latest News:

XW loses job and thinks she can't come back until she has a new one. I've learned to expect flip-flops.

They say 75% of those diagnosed with BPD are women. That is not to say it is a woman's illness. Women with BPD are in the mental health system. Men with BPD are in jail.

very hereditary, very, very hereditary

I find this borderline personality disorder very interesting. My H always claims he suffers from depression. Friends and others that I have described his behavior to think he is bipolar or manic depressive.

His mother was hospitalized at around age 30 for what was termed a nervous breakdown. She shows many signs of schizophrenia. His brother (died at 33 of colon cancer) was extremely anti-social, narcisstic, opiniated (world is wrong-I'm right), selfish, angry, and down-right scary. My H is charming, charismatic, extroverted, yet has extreme mood swings, extreme opinions, is very concerned w/others opinion of him, can be extremely phony, prejudiced, mean, needs tons of affection and admiration.

I read some stuff from some the links to BPD and saw many similarities in my H but it said to be careful not to diagnose. My H's MD has referred him to a psychiatrist but he has yet to go. Any ideas?

Moving On with Life,
I can only say that you are very wise on this one. The road with my mom has been "unexpected" at every turn! In fact, I would say that was the norm. So, good for you for coming here. Keep posting, many here support you!! Have you had a chance to look at books on Amazon.com. They have pretty large selection. I found it was difficult to get any info at my local store....
Also, have you checked out the websites people posted here, or any others you can share with us?
Prayers for your family,
bbs

Wiftty,
How did you find out it was hereditary? I was not aware of that... all the books I found kept saying nobody knows.

Bernzini,
I forgot on my last post to tell you that I agree about the "mellowing." I think my Grandma had BPD, and by the time I got to know her as an adult (she was in her 80's) it had pretty much mellowed out to nothing. She was wonderful to me, but not very nice to mom from stories I hear. I always kinda looked at mom twice when she related these stories because of how mellow GMA was, but later learned of the lessening of symptoms over time. In fact, my mother did melllow, then tragically became suicidal for 3 years during a difficult period. The Dr. said that trauma can bring symptoms back again...

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: blueberryskies ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did you find out it was hereditary? I was not aware of that... all the books I found kept saying nobody knows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason they say that is because until they had the ability to map the human genome, there wasn't enough information. . . . but if you read enough, there are clues. . .

they said the same thing for Crohn's disease, but they recently found the gene. . . A related disorder, ODD, is "passed through families", which means hereditary. . . .

and if you think about it, the reason why they say they don't know, is to not make a statement that they can't back up, scientifically, and if you go through your family history, you will begin to see patterns. . . after i read the ODD statement, i thought back to people in my XILs and there are lots of signs of hereditaryness, starting with my XGMIL, who had some disorder, although the past was unspoken, hidden in shame and craziness that does not want to be let out. . . .

wiftty

I have ordered several books from Amazon:

I Hate You-Don't Leave Me
Stop Walking on Eggshells
The Angry Heart
Eclipses
Life on the Border

I gave my XW "I Hate You-Don't Leave Me" to read. She knows she has a problem and is open to ideas. She flip-flops so easily and so rapidly. I can determine her mood just by looking at her now.

I've been hitting the internet sites. Right now my priority is to read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" which will help deal with her behavior and take care of myself.

It is so amazing how people in her circle don't think their is anything wrong. I will continue to post here. It is important for everyone to know that my experiences do not relate to a "normal" relasionship, A or D.

Part of how I found out about what was going on with my XW was because of differences between my experiences and everyone elses here. Part of what I've been through has been the same, but the reactions of my XW have been different on many levels.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is so amazing how people in her circle don't think their is anything wrong. I will continue to post here. It is important for everyone to know that my experiences do not relate to a "normal" relasionship, A or D. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">people who don't understand disorders or who have never lived with one, can't see it, because in high functioning forms, only family members see it, and those family members are ones that are considered trusted or to be manipulated. . . for their benefit. . .

i have some stories that just are very, very weird, and i knew there was something wrong before we got married, but after we got married, then the relationship deteriorated, i was closer and was held responsible for her environment . . .

but it wasn't until i read "Stop walking on Eggshells" and exact, EXACT conversations in there my X had with me, did i figure it wasn't me, and since she refused, condemned counseling, as does her mom, father, and grandmother. . .
the problem was bigger than Plan A or B. . .

One interesting observation that i have is that for my X, she must have something to rally against, to fight against, to struggle against, in order to be validated as worthy. . . and now as the X husband, i have that distinction, having replaced her parents as that object while we were together.

wiftty

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

It is amazing that people "in their circles" can't believe that anything is wrong!!!!!!!

As most of you know, my husband is a military officer--a good one. A tough one. People adore him, or at least respect him. It is amazing to see, when I have to accompany him to parties <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> the show he puts on for people. Most of the time, the more drinks he has at a party, the more charming he is. He is well-spoken, handsome, and friendly. He is not the sullen hermit that I have to carefully step around at home. He's like a powder keg, and just about anything I say is a spark that makes it blow.

For the longest time, I was of course certain that the problem WAS mine, that it was me and that I was just an inferior person. I am not patting myself on the back here--after my husband's affair, I slowly came to realize that it isn't me, it's him (OK, I know that doesn't make sense.)

It is interesting--I was reading up on BPD in a mental health journal, and it described how BPD's interact with other people. Or more specifically, how they fall in love. A BPD doesn't just fall in love--he becomes obsessively, madly infatuated--almost immediately. Then, quite quickly, as the object of the BPD's affection shows weaknesses and imperfections, he writes that person off. Total black, or total white--the BPD does not understand the "grey areas" of another person, or anyway, does not tolerate them. If the person is not perfect, and seldom people are, then the BPD becomes disenchanted quickly. He sees the imperfections of the person and suddenly, the entire person is "evil."

This certainly explains certain aspects of his affair--He DID "love" his OW. But when I asked him if he did, he said no. And he wasn't lying--because by then, she had unwittingly proved to him what a hootch she was. Also, he hadn't seen her for a while. Like Blueberry explained--a BPD's reality is a tunnel vision of what he can see in front of him. Like a baby who does not understand that even though you hide the toy under the blanket, it still exists, a BPD has difficulty understanding the "big picture." Things that you can't see are still a reality. Just like the wife that you left home while on a business trip. Just like the OW that you left half-way across the country when you returned home to your wife.

I have listened to my husband shriek about how I am going to jail (for what? I ask meekly, making him even madder) how I am just after his money, I am evil, so evil, in fact, that I am a hypocrite for going to church (he then breaks out singing a church hymn to taunt me) I am lazy (for not returning a video to the stop) ect, ect.

After he calms down, and I am still hurting, he cannot even figure out why I can't talk to him, why I am still hurting. It's like he has forgotten that he was ever angry. And he can't figure out why I am so cold towards him. Of course, it's because of MY personality problems, of course. (when he saw that I was reading that mental health journal, he said--"Good! I am glad you are reading that. Maybe you can help yourself.")

Another trait of BPD's is that they select people who "need" them. It's like they can hold that person captive. A person that loves you is a person who "needs" you. They will put up with all your crap, admire you and pamper you if they need you--and they can't easily get away.

When a BPD looses a person that he has such a hold over, it is devestating to him. The BPD is in constant terror over being abandoned (that sounds funny, as the BPD is so hostile to the people he "loves.")

I have found all this evident as well. My husband loves to rub it in that I am dependant upon him now. But if I threaten to leave, he freaks. We were separated for nine months after the affair, during which many times he would call me in a rage to tell me that I was a horrible selfish person and he was divorcing me. When I calmly said "Okay, homes, send me the paper. Let's get it over with." he would become even more enraged. He would holler that I was the one who abandoning him. "Why are you doing this to me! After all I have done for you? You selfish b**ch!"

BPD's cannot understand why they feel as they feel. They take no responsibility for their own feelings. They try to tag their own rage on other people. When a BPD is angry, and you are calm, it is a slap in the face to him. It confuses his theory that every negative emotion that he feels is the fault of another person.

One theory for creating a BPD personality: A child who is alternately pampered and spoiled yet strictly disciplined by the same parent. A child who is not permitted to "grow up," always under the thumb of the parent who needs him, loves him, and yet punishes him. In essence, a the child becomes an adult who comes to associate punishment with love. (That theory is usually associated with weird sexual behaviors, of course, but I am not talking about that here--although that has been, by the way, a problem for us, too.)

The child who comes to associate love with punishment understands that he is basically bad, and he feels constant shame. It is easy to deal with this shame if you can pin it on other people. He also feels a desperate need to rebel against the person he feels is punishing him. Thus, every conversation can turn into a fight, because the BPD is hypervigilant and always on the defensive. He always feels he is being attacked.

A lot of BPD's are people, who as children, were "difficult." That is, collicky babies, "naughty" children, ect.

A BPD is not always created out of trauma, as Bllueberry pointed out. It could just be the wrong parent-child personality mix that formulates a BPD.

I can see all of this with my husband and his mother clearly. He's a momma's boy, totally. He's almost fourty years old, and she still treats him like a baby. Every time he goes on a deployment, she calls up in tears. I just shake my head.

I am sure he is trying to get me to fill in that "momma" roll--I won't. I am a woman, a wife, and a mother to my OWN children, not his momma figure. (Talk about Norman Bates.) It could be why he fell head over heels for an older woman, too.

Well, I could be talking out my butt about all this stuff, so take it with a grain of salt. It just makes the whole situation a little more tolerable if you can understand it from the ground up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another trait of BPD's is that they select people who "need" them. It's like they can hold that person captive. A person that loves you is a person who "needs" you. They will put up with all your crap, admire you and pamper you if they need you--and they can't easily get away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, that is very correct. . . which is why my X loves being a teacher, in full control of intellectual dependents, loves the feeling of being needed.. . told me that she loves being needed when i ask her for mathematical help once in awhile. . . also why she loves being an EMT, helping people in dire need. . . she told me once that being an EMT gives her more ________ than anything i could ever give. . . (can't remember what exactly it was) but i am not supposed to be giving her what she gets from her job anyway. . . not my role. . . no wonder why she has been searching the EMT circle for a new mate. . .

My X also told me that i was "too independent" and so she seeks out needy people and offers them stuff that is not hers, but has access to. .. as if it is hers to give. . .

so K, GIIC, you need to understand what you are dealing with, so that you can prepare yourself correctly with realistic expectations. . . and give up the religious explanations, they don't apply here. . .

wiftty

I think that you are right on in your observation, Wiffty. I think the MEANEST thing (I swear to God, this is the worst!) that I actually ever said to my husband in a fight:

"I think you joined the Marine Corps so you could enjoy the admirations of 18-year-old boys who don't know how to pour piss out a boot."

Now of course, I think he took that another way, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> and of course, he was completely enraged when I said it. He still brings it up to this day. But what I meant was that he thrives on the attentions of younger, more naive people.

Now, I too, am very emotionally independant. I have learned to take care of myself. It drives my husband crazy, too. Where is the naive, helpless gullible little woman that he married?

Now, if I wanted to go somewhere, I get up and go. If I want to do something, and my husband refuses to participate, (and he most often does, being contrary is a very important tactic for him) I do it alone. It's a sad way to live, but. . .

I can see the confusion registering on his face when he challenges me. . .
"Did you pay this bill?!" . . ."Yes, on time, in full". . .

"How did you figure out how to use the subway system by yourself?!". . ."It was easy.". . .

"Did the kid do his homework?!". . ."He certainly did--I helped him, and he got an 'A'"

It's almost like he looks like he's going to go crawl into a cave when I tell him that I have already done, accomplished, and defeated and overcome. . .without him.

It's a triumph, but at the same time, it hurts me too. I want to be in a marriage where I am not constantly challenged, where I am not an enemy to be conquerered, where there is not a game that have constantly changing rules, where there is, in fact, no game at all. . .

This thread has been an eye opener for me. Bernzini, what you have described fits my XH to the tee. For the last few years, I struggled to figure him out. Can anyone give me some insight?

I was his obsession when he married me. He overwhelmed me and just totally moved in on me. I married him at 37; my first marriage, and he used to love to tell me he saved me from being a spinster. At the time we married, he was in financial debt and I was doing quite well financially. I ended up helping him get out of debt and get his law practice on its feet. So he was definitely using me to an extent, but I have no doubt he loved me also.

Over the course of the next six years, I saw him become obsessive approx. every three months about something new. He would jump into some hobby with full force and then all of a sudden a few months later drop it.

Since he left me in February, I have been told he has been through 6 or 7 girlfriends (one is now pregnant by him).

There were so many things about him I could not figure out. If we had an argument and I told him how much I loved him, he would actually get very angry at me. When he left me and I told him he would never for the rest of his life find anyone that loved him more than I did, he got so mad he started screaming at me. Whenever he would make me cry, he would get so mad at me he would storm out of the house leaving me sitting there crying and wondering what I did wrong.

My XH has a very strange relationship with his family. For the last year, he has refused to speak to any of them (parents included) because he got mad at a funeral. He was never close to his father and his mother used to make him furious. He said she was always nagging him and he would call her a b**ch behind her back. His family lives in another state and when I would hear him talk to his mother on the phone, he could be real condescending to her.

Additionally, my XH is an alcoholic (hasn't had a drink in 20 years-I think), was a hard core drug addict in his teens and currently abuses prescription drugs.

For you that have experience with living with spouses with BPD, etc., does any of this sound familiar? What was I dealing with?

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Fingers1258 ]</small>

You can count me in as another survivor of an EX with BPD. My ex has nearly all the symptoms described here. He too, was military, and even though I knew there was something very wrong with him, he could never seek treatment of that sort as it would squelch his military "career". Or so he told me. Thus, I did my "walking on eggshells routine" for 20 years until his affair and all hell broke loose. By then he'd wrapped up his "20 year letter" and I was able to drag him to a civilian psychiatrist. For a time, the shrink would not divulge any diagnosis to me until I forced the issue. What I was told was that he has "an organic mood disorder". Which later I found encompasses a host of possible mental/personality disorders. I did my own research and of all the possibilities, BPD fit the bill. Medication, such as anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, etc. did not help him whatsoever. He was even on one given to schizophrenics. Psychotherapy was useless. None of it helped. This is par for BPD. He fluctuated between denying he had a problem and hopelessness. That's when I came to terms with the fact that nothing was going to change. The only person I could possibly save was myself.

Even at the very end, there were the BPD signs. After he left to be with OW the second time (3 hours away) and I filed for divorce, he wanted to drive up every week to mow my lawn (he was still trying to make me dependant on him). He refused to show me how to use the riding lawnmower (said it was too dangerous for me). He insisted on taking a photo of us, and an aerial photo of our home (object constancy). When I was deeply entrenched in this drama, all of his inconsistent, contradictory behavior was confusing as hell to me.

He has no family ties whatsoever. He has alienated eveyone who ever meant anything to him. Neither his mother (who is a psycho in her own right), his sister, his first x-wife nor his only daughter will have anything to do with him. It is very, very sad. And for a long time I suffered at his hands because I felt sorry for him.

The only advice I can give to people who have the misfortune of being involved with a BPD is please look out for yourself.

It sucks what you all have had to endure; it takes a strong person to withstand a lot of verbal and emotional abuse, and still stand tall knowing that you are a good and worthy person.

I have to tell you, despite all the things that I have said about my ex, and all of them are true, is that we are still together. I posted on this particular board for a long time because I was ready to end the marriage. Not because of the affair--it would have been hard for me, but I would have forgiven that under "normal" circumstance. (Can I use the word 'normal' to describe infidelity?)

My husband, underneath his anger and strange perceptions of reality, is a nice guy. These are even his own words. Potentially, he is a great guy. He is a loving father. I think that any man who is a doting father is worth holding on to--that's my evidence. That's what convinced me. In fact, that is the one and only reason I intially got back together with him--for our son. The renaissance in our relationship began with that.

They all talk about rollercoasters--try tidal waves in our case. One minute will be peachy and calm, the next will be a horrible storm that knocks the whole marriage down in its wake. And leaves a mirky pile of flotsam covering everthing, until gradually, things clear and go back to being calm again.

I think the reason that I am still with my husband is that during his tranquil moments, he is very kind and loving. He thinks straight, he doesn't live in his own little reality, he is compassionate. Those times are growing to be more and more, and I can see hope for us.

I dread the times when he freaks out. That's why I still look at MB--to help me through the times that I don't give a crap whether the marriage stays intact or not. Sometimes I even hate the guy after one of our little episodes. But I stick with it and learn to use those filters--screen out all the stupid stuff he says and reassure myself that they are just words.

I have learned to recognize the things that I do to trigger his anger and avoid doing them. No nagging about little things. If there's a dirty sock on the floor, well, I keep my mouth shut and pick it up. If he drinks out of the milk carton--that's cool, because I don't like milk anyway. If he's having a bad day from work, I don't fuss about him dropping his stuff at the door and running up to his computer to vent his frustrations playing "Half-Life"--thus ignoring me. (Like was mention, my husband goes through stages of obsessions--he taught himself Greek by ignoring me for months, for instance. Learning to use chat on the internet was NOT a good obsession that he got into.)

I definately try hard not to mention his infidelity. He is very ashamed of himself, and the mere mention of his past actions launches a counter-attack of vast inproportion to the preemptive "attack."

My husband will not discuss his affair. He drove home from work in the middle of the day in tears the day I discovered, more than two years ago, his OW's picture in his pocket and admitted that he'd had an "inappropriate friendship." More than that, he will would never do. Never again would he discuss it without flying into a rage. So I am careful not to rub it in. I know everything, anyway. (I know more than I would ever WANT to know--I have their chat and e-mails.)

You may say that I am being a "door mat." I don't think so--there is a definate difference about griping about tiny things that are an inconvenience to you, like the toilet seat left up, and suffering from all-out disrespect and cruelty. In order to avoid the cruelty, I don't mention the toilet seat.

If you don't throw rocks into a tiger's den, he won't come out and eat you, I guess.

I hope you all do understand that it WAS NOT your fault that the person you loved was so angry.

One particular theory of MB that I don't really adhere to is that the WS was not being emotionally fulfilled and thus needed to have an affair. Certainly this is true in most cases.

But when you are married to a person who is perpetually a big baby, who does not know what they want or what they need, who is an empty void, like a black hole ravenous to be filled without any understanding of anyone else's need--well, what more can you do? You will be sucked dry trying to satiate your big baby. Not a good way to live.

What is the difference between BPD and bipolar?

My x said om/xh was diagnosed as bipolar. One things she told me about him was that he never realized when he did something wrong. She said she had to remind him everyday. I just shrugged my shoulders.

He went back to his xwife. I'm not sure who is sicker in that relationship!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RWD:
<strong>One things she told me about him was that he never realized when he did something wrong. She said she had to remind him everyday. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This had me laughing. Good thing she was there to remind him!

Reminds me of that old joke: "If a man speaks in the forest, and there's no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?"

Really confused.

I haven't a clue what is going to happen but my XW is really confused. I'm learning how to deal with her and it is working. It is very hard to do but it is working. I don't know what she is going to do from one minute to the next and neither does she!

One day she is coming home, the next she isn't and then she doesn't talk to me for 5 days and wonders why I'm aloof.

I try to stay busy taking care of myself, but it is so hard to stay focused.