Is H still talking to clergy or counselors? Still open and remorseful? Any bad fallout yet? Are you safe?

Yes, we are both still in the counseling process. I met alone with the counselor today, to discuss incidents of the past week, etc....very important session in prep. for all four of us meeting on the 19th. <P>When the pastor met with H last time, he could not see that he's doing anything wrong toward me. He is locked inside his own world of grief, pain, burn-out, spiritual/emotional dysfunction (& false theology & controlling) At home he has expressed the need for a "harbor", feels people are expecting perfection & out to attack him when he's doing his best (me, his dad, the pastor/counselor), business people, etc. <P>You asked, "Any bad fallout yet? Are you safe?"....I am safe; he seems to be more careful not to physically abuse....knows I will tell the counselor. He also appears to be trying harder to communicate about business we're in instead of expecting me to read his mind & mad when I can't. He is saying a few more kind words....<P>But he is still assuming things of the kids & I and falsely accusing us....very hurtful. He is picking on me more (when I am around or by phone), trying to find faults & saying..."so why don't you tell the counselor how bad you are!!"...preach, lecture, I'm right, you're wrong, type of talk.... this combined with working harder then wanting me to praise him. Like the counselor says, his whole mindset is "do"...so he's thinking working harder will impress me?... He can't comprehend it's his "being" that needs attention!! He is so external issues focused, not internal healing and growth....<P>I just woke up in the night here, struggling with my situation...need to go back for a little more rest. Thank you, Karenna & Lonelywife, for your posts & prayers, reminding me I'm not alone! God has been so good... church service on Sunday was so wonderful, also yesterday He brought a couple opportunities for me to minister to others & see their joy (got my focus off my own misery for a while!!)....The counseling today was so affirming...wow!... finally after 14 years have real help!! Pray for the 19th when all four of us meet... (I'm starting to feel afraid!)<P>Pray my spouse doesn't drop out of the process, as he has been criticizing the pastor, etc....<P>I'll keep you informed!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited September 13, 2000).]

Hello Renae,<P>Good luck tomorrow. Let us know how the counselling session went.<P>Lots of prayers and good wishes.

Okay Renae, are you still safe? How did the session go yesterday? You WILL be fine, no matter what has to happen now. God knows you and loves you and will bless <B>you</B> for all the righteous efforts you have put into your family all these years.<P>Love,<P>Karenna

We went to counseling (all four of us). It appeared that the pastor and my spouse were headed for a terrible argument. Pastor simply asked my spouse if we were there just to straighten Renae out or if he might be part of the problem. My spouse acted arrogant and would not answer the question the way it was addressed to him. He said he wanted to hear specific things, if indeed he has done anything wrong, which he didn't think he had. Pastor didn't like this answer and told him so, but we went on.....<BR> <BR>We continued for an hour and 40 minutes on various issues, and the counselor was frustrated, saying that we weren't accomplishing anything (spouse was so hard to communicate with). He would give these little sermonettes about external issues but kept focus off what's inside him. Pastor rebuked him for this throwing himself into the human race pool and generalizing. <BR> <BR>But the worst thing that happened was that we talked about a situation we faced in 1994, and how my spouse had not asked my view but charged ahead with a decision which severely impacted our life and hurt me..... to my shock, before hearing my postion, Pastor said my spouse did the right thing! I was speechless and hung my head. Fortunately the counselor, looking as sad as I, spoke up with my position, but the men were off balance and there was no changing them. I felt like I'd been run over by a train and feared the fallout that would be sure to happen at home. I am doubtful this pastor is able to help him.<BR> <BR>Today the fallout came. My spouse arrogantly asked me what topics I have discussed/written to this former neighbor who has contacted me for information and support. I told him she has problems in her marriage, family, church, & questions about music. He started accusing me of gossiping to her about him, and told me that other women like her have these terrible husbands but I (my spouse) do nothing wrong and yet you (Renae) complain and got me in counseling!!!! He brought up what the pastor had said in counseling, and emphasized to me how RIGHT he ALWAYS is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He started cutting me down..... and my whole day today I struggled to have any motivation at all. <P>It's hopeless. I want to move out and let him have his consequences. He's been such a jerk for so long and this just tops it off. I can't take anymore. I hope I get the courage to go on with my life and soon. <P>Late tonight I struggled with so much anger inside me. My spouse saw that I was struggling and got angrier at me and more condemning. He says everything is my own fault and my contacts via computer like this are committing adultery and gossip. It is likely he will dismantle the computer again.<BR>Maybe I should just quit this writing so I will have no contacts outside my home? It seems to me that it's time for me to leave him. <BR> <BR>Discouraged,<BR>Renae

Oh Renae! I am so sorry! {{{{{{{{{{{{{Renae}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I am really worried and scared for you. Please email me if you want to talk about what options you have now. Karenna_a@hotmail.com

Oh Renae, I too just hurt for the pain you are going through. Been checking here every day to see how things are going for you. My pastor says sometimes we have to leave to save any love left in order to rebuild or reconcile. <BR>Father, comfort this siter and let her feel your unfailing love. Surround her with a cushion of protection from the backlash of her husband. Holy spirit fill her mind with the Word that she may stay focused on the task at hand and be strengthened for the spiritual battle. Bless her heart and let her feel your presence in a mighty way. IJN, Amen.

We're going back to counseling today at noon central time. Please pray that God would work through this. He is our only hope at this point.<P>I just can't go on like this anymore. He's got to learn how to have a healthy relationship and not just work around the clock and dump out his anger and abuse on me.<BR>

So what happened today? Regardless of what happens in the counseling, you need to stand solidly within yourself with God. Sometimes the arm of flesh is totally insufficient and personal integrity requires more courage and faith. We are still praying with you for the best outcome. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he can face his fears and weaknesses and be humbled unto repentance!!???

Renae:<P>Still waiting to hear about your meeting on the 26th?<P>[censored] from Texas

Renae,<P>You are in my prayers and thoughts. Please let us know how you are doing. Take care.

Hello dear friends,<P>Sorry, it took me several days to recover after the session!!!! I was devastated but am doing ok now.<P>The pastor started with prayer, lots of great scripture, shared about communication in marriage,and gave us reading material on the correct meaning of submission in marriage. The session went steadily downhill after that. <P>He asked H if he is a loving servant leader in the home, to which H replied that he always is, that Renae is the one who won't cooperate. H said when there's a problem, Renae is the one who won't talk about it!! (GRRR!!!!) The Counselor and I told Pastor that when I try to talk about a problem, H treats me as the problem for bringing it up and gets mad!! H never wants me to talk about problems and so nothing gets resolved. <P>At that point, H started bringing up insignificant things, false things, twisting the truth about me, blowing stuff out of proportion, portraying me as someone that I am not, making a fool of me!!! I was devastated!!! I knew he was playing the game of trying to get the focus off himself and on to me. <P>I still think this pastor does not understand abusers. He is addressing us as a normal couple with communication problems,my spouse's anger, and a submission problem. When my spouse plays his mind games, I'm feeling even more hurt when the pastor seems to not catch it and believes my spouse's version of things and gives me correction accordingly without me being able to point out the distortion!!! H is crafty at broad-brushing things, twisting the truth to make himself look good while he makes me into the fool. H almost convinced me I'm the abuser... it really drives me crazy!!!! <P>Pastor thinks I can just Biblically love my spouse and try to communicate with him some more?????!!!!! I can't! For him to say that, he doesn't understand abusers!!!!!!!<P>Near the end of the session, H began cutting me down as being "anti-fundamentalist" and only grace!! He wanted Pastor to think I'm unbiblical. (He likes to paint me as an extremist) <P>Pastor & counselor watched him hurling insults at me, and I shaking my head and hurting....and they said our communication is so poor....!! <P>On the way home, I was so angry, I pounded my fist on the car door and told H I will have no more of the way he treated me in there!! <P>Here I was with all this pain inside me, and right after the counseling, I was scheduled to meet the Christian mother of my daughter's friend while our girls were involved in activities. These last two times I've seen her, she brings up that she struggles in her marriage and specific things that are similar to my own. Why would she share this when I hardly know her?! I tried hard to converse as needed while keeping my own situation guarded, fearing my spouse would guilt me with gossip!! But I was so full of pain after that session, I finally told her I know exactly what she's dealing with because I'm dealing with it too! Maybe God led us together at that moment for mutual support?...<BR>This former childhood neighbor continues to e-mail about her abusive spouse also. Why are these abused wives coming into my life right now asking for my support, when neither of them knew my situation? God, what are you doing?...I don't know where this is all going!!!<BR> <BR>I called the Counselor before she left town the next day and told her I had to have some feedback on what she and Pastor were really thinking...did they believe H? I told her I was devastated by what had happened, felt like I'm totally falling apart!!!!!! and need to leave H. She told me to do the assignment until she gets back, & assured me they know what is going on, and that Oct. 10th will be a turning point. I don't know what this means, but I will hang on for now.<P>Today H asked how our relationship is now, that he thinks we've done great since the counseling. I hesitated to answer and stir up something. He said, we have to go by what it says on the sheets about communication. (Is he really trying?) Then he asked, what would I have to do to make this relationship wonderful? I told him he would have to realize what he's done wrong and what he's put me through and be willing to develop a healthy relationship. I told him I heard on the radio yesterday what wives need most is to be listened to and understood, and that's what I need. I should be able to talk and feel safe with you. Then H got very mad at me....began lecturing me that I am negative and I shouldn't ever say anything if it annoys him!! (What did I say wrong? What about all he says that annoys me???)....<P>Finally, I was surprised to hear H say that he thinks the counseling has been too general and we are more sick than that!!! Why did he say that? <P>This afternoon while we were working, H blew up angrily and preached at me (it was horribly abusive), then stopped and admitted he's under so much pressure with his work, then looked at me gently and hugged me. <BR>Ugh!!!!! It is so frustrating to be abused, then hugged!!!!!! <P>Hanging on 'til Oct 10th,<BR>Renae<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited October 01, 2000).]

Hi Renae,<P>I know I have been praying for you every time the Spirit brings you to mind and I am sure others have as well. Perhaps it is these times that H catches himself and stops his garbage. Will continue to pray heavily for those changes that will occur on the 10th.<P>The only thing positive I can say about your situation is that your H continues to go to the counseling. The Harley stuff talks about the hope that remains when you are in conflict rather than in withdrawal. Mine quit and continues to talk about the conspiracy against him. He seems to feel we are all anti-bibilical except for himself.<P>I will get a chance to be out of state n business for 10 days, so H will be given the info that he needs to figure out what really is worthwhile to him and if his attitude is to remain the same, I will be moving out upon my return. It will be my move to the "rooftop" rather than live with the constant drip.<P>Glad to hear from you and that H didn't disconnect the puter.

Renae, I just can't believe your patience. You must be so strong! If it were me I would be so deep into withdrawal that nothing he could do would ever affect my emotions one way or another. You are obviously still quite attached to him, even through negative feedback. <P>Do you have a counselor of your very own you can see separately who isn't at all involved with him? I sure hope so. Otherwise, how will you make it to the tenth?<P>SueB,<P>Congratulations!!! I am so pleased to hear that you are going to be getting some relief. One way or the other. I know you are leaving the door open to him, so does this mean Plan B?<P>What did you think of my hygiene comment on WBS? Did he have the same personal appearance habits when you met and married as he does now? Has he gotten much worse? I really like hardware solutions where possible. Kinda like your laying out his clothes and saying go shower now.

After a summer of struggle to have any energy, fighting depression, etc....Your prayers have renewed my energy!! I am getting the critically important work & financial matters taken care of that I need to do before I could ever leave H. The prayers are giving me strength & patience beyond myself to do what is right for H's soul & our relationship--to obey Matt.18:15-19 to bring him to counseling and accountability. This is showing where his heart is really at. If he will not change, then like you, SueB, I think God will allow me to go free. Your prayers are helping to heal me, restore my soul, and prompting me to sense where God is leading for the future. Thank you greatly for all the support and prayers!! God bless you all!!!!!<P>

Renae:<P>I'm sorry, but I am not going to change my tune concerning your situation.<P>Everyday you stay with your husband, you prolong his facing himself and his issues.<P>Your counselor sounds like she knows what's going on, while the Pastor seems 'out to lunch'. In other words, you and he don't seem to be in the same zip code.<P>How many, many times as a man have I written you what I know to be truth and you don't seem to heed it?<P>Your husband is truly doing everything he can to keep the focus off of himself and on you. This way, he sidesteps and avoids facing his own issues.<P>Just like I said earlier "while he is desperately trying to put fires out all around him, the problem is 'within' him".<P>Your husband sounds like an extreme, very extreme, out of balance religious legalist who knows nothing, absolutely nothing about GRACE.<P>Again, you have to do what you have to do and it sounds like you are hanging on for your marriage, which I commend; however at what price to your mental, emotional and spiritual health?<P>Feel free to e-mail me if you want to share more detail.....<P>Your friend.....<P>[censored] from Texas<p>[This message has been edited by [censored] (edited October 03, 2000).]

Hello Renae,<P>So sorry that you are still having to live with this abuse. Hopefully, the 10th will bring a miracle that will put a stop to it (finally).<P>My guess is that the counsellor and Pastor were playing a waiting game and listening to everything your husband (and you) had to say before coming to any conclusions and now they are ready to formulate a plan. If they had started responding to your husband earlier, he probably would have shut up and not given them the info they need.<P>It is absolutely amazing how some people are so adept at convincing others of their lies. Believe me, I have been through it and it is absolutely unbelievable. I really sympathize with you but I still don't know how to fight such a thing.<P>My prayers and thoughts are with you and hopefully you'll get some positive feedback on the 10th. Keep us posted.<P>

(((((Hugs to you, Lonelywife)))))<P>Right, [censored]! I'm getting income tax work done now with his needed cooperation; once this is done--I can go at anytime. <P>H is angry now about the "faults" of his brothers. Funny isn't it, how the very same faults are his own and it is ok for him to use them against me but he doesn't like the same behaviors toward him!!!<P>Yesterday H reviewed legal documents that came in the mail,over-reacted, scowling, assuming the lawyer was going ahead with a plan H didn't want. (But it is ok when H goes ahead with plans without care for how they affect me!!) I looked at the paperwork and said it didn't appear to me that the lawyer was doing that. H didn't like it that I didn't see it like he does and demanded my agreement,began to angrily preach how right he always is and I'm violating his headship, etc.!! All I'm doing is considering other possibilities, not that I want to specifically be disagreeable. He takes it as personal attack... I warned him not to assume and get angry at the lawyer until you hear what he's doing. It turns out I was right. I don't glory in being right, but just want H to grow up!! (It's just another illustration of how submission to him means I can't be an independent thinker. In all seriousness, I thank God that I still have a mind left after years of repressing it under H's authority.)<P>What really bugs me is that a husband should be protective of his wife emotionally & mentally, but H attacks and is glad when I suffer alone while he proudly proclaims himself right on all issues. This must stop.<P>He even takes the communication rules taught at counseling and preaches them at me instead of just applying them. He initiates conversation, then stops me when I don't answer as he wants and tells me I'm violating the rules!! And pastor thinks I can talk to him?????? <P>Waiting for Oct 10th,<BR>Renae<P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited October 04, 2000).]

Since the last counseling session, H has been looking for every chance to slam me with condemnation, accusing me of being a poor communicator, playing a game and being uncooperative with the counseling. He keeps angily stating that there is nothing wrong with him. The truth is, he is playing a game, making it look like he's serious about working toward change when he is obviously unwilling to change and grow with me toward a healthy marriage.<P>Friday night and yesterday H was completely out of control and abusive again over very minor issues. This is enough for me and the kids. <P>Going back to counseling tomorrow. Please pray! I need H to separate from me & the kids and leave us alone!!!<P>

Renae:<P>Glad to hear from you, I was just fixing to post a reply saying..."Renae....where are you?" then I found your post.<P>You said you want him to separate from you, I don't think this is going to happen. You need to separate, get away from him as soon as possible!<P>Of course your counselor said Oct 10th will be a turning point..don't know what she meant, but guess we'll see.<P>The time for talk/dialogue is over! It is so very obvious your husband is never going to focus on his issues as long as you are around to badger and vent on.<P>[censored] from Texas