Renae, My only "suggestion" or guess for tomorrow would be for you to offer an apology.<P>Maybe it will be good to apologize for helping to create this situation and atmosphere in the marriage by years of inappropriate, misguided submission to his unrighteous dominion.<P>I am so glad he hasn't broken you down, but you did not help him to grow either. I am definitely praying for you for tomorrow. Don't expect a miracle, don't expect others to do for you what you abdicated. But hope and pray for strength and inspiration for all involved. And if it is God's will, there could be a miracle.<P>You next step should be to a powerful divorce attorney. You are going to need the best. He should be evicted from the home if he does not humble himself in repentance tomorrow.<P>God be with you Renae!

Hello Renae,<P>Did a miracle happen? So anxious to know what happened at your counselling session today.<P>May God give you the strength to do what you need to do and become whole again.<P>Lots of hugs and prayers. Take care.

Lonelywife, you are so loving to me. I would hug you with all heart if you were here!!<P>This counseling session was DIFFICULT beyond description from beginning to end. Without prayers, I could not have survived it.<P>The reason I've brought up past things my spouse has said and done is because I wanted pastor to understand this is about control/abuse, but pastor didn't get it. I doubt he's ever read the "signs" of an abuser!! Pastor just said past things my spouse doesn't remember may have to just be forgotten and forgiven. Ah!!!!! That isn't the point!!! I was trying to show pastor a pattern of abuse!!! And H's constant "can't remember" or denial is H's strategy!!!! <P>At that point I had to be assertive (not a trait I'm good at). I brought up the 1994 incident that pastor had ruled in H's favor in a previous session, and gave him my side of it and more facts(which pastor had failed to let me share before he made the ruling). Suddenly pastor caught on!!!!....and he proceeded to hit the nail on the head that H has not lived with me according to understanding as the Bible says, with honor, repect, grace, etc. This made H upset. I told pastor it is not a matter of forgiving or mis-impressions, but that my conclusions about H are based on his repeated treatment of me, H's statements and sermonettes over 14 years. I said H had better retract those statements, prove to me he no longer believes like that, or else there will only be more abuse. I told of how out-of-control H is emotionally and specific incidents of physical abuse. H denied it all, and pastor told him, Renae couldn't possibly be making all of this up! I told H I am not playing games!<P>Well, he's been confronted by me before witnesses with truth about himself as well as the pastor's instruction on Biblical truth about how to have a real marriage. H is being given the opportunity to accept it, repent, and change or go on as he is. The mission has been accomplished according to Matt. 18: 15-19. There was nothing left to say on the way home; you could have heard a pin drop in the car.<P>A tentative last appointment is scheduled for October 31st unless an emergency occurs. <BR>Pastor says he's done all he can do in sharing scripturally and it's up to us to apply it. He said there is hope for us but he can't do much more. <P>The counselor looked shocked and exhausted after the session, almost speechless. I wish I could get feedback from her as to what she's thinking. I was shaken, feeling like I was assertive beyond my nature.... <P>Pastor and H walked out of the session together and I looked at Counselor and expressed worry whether I had done ok.<P>Counselor said both of us need to journal up to Oct. 31st and come back to compare stories one last time. I have journaled! H wrote some things in his own warped view.<BR>What more do they need??? This is enough!! I can't stick around to take more of how H was this past week!!!!!<P>I'm going to focus on work to be done here and try to get our old house ready to move back into by Nov. 1st. I think I am Biblically permitted to separate. If that doesn't wake H up, then it's over.<P>

Way to GO, Renae!!! <P>I love the strength and assertiveness. That is strength in God, not in yourself. Whoopie! You are going to make it just fine. But things aren't going to be easy. Keep posting! <P>Have a great October now. Just be honest and full of integrity. Don't violate yourself or permit him to violate you or any child ever again.<P>God Bless!<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Renae:<P>I was ready to jump through this computer screen and strangle that Pastor, until I heard that he might have 'finally' seen the light!<P>You have more than 100 Bible's worth of scripture to separate from your husband..again....not for your sake as much as for his!<P>I truly, honestly feel he will NEVER, EVER, NEVER face his issues and deal with his internal state until you are gone.<P>Keep posting and stay in touch!<P>[censored] from Texas

Hello Renae,<P>What was the turning point that the Counsellor had indicated for Oct 10? What was the miracle?<P>I really didn't get a good sense of what is happening in the sessions except that you are becoming stronger and more assertive. Maybe this is what you need in order to leave this marriage.<P>Do you think the counselling sessions are helping you and your marriage? To me it seems that your husband is getting more abusive. Maybe he doesn't like having his weaknesses aired to other people! It appears that he thinks there's "nothing broke, so why fix it?".<P>But there are times that you have stated where he seems more compassionate. Why is he on such an emotional roller coaster? and taking you along with him. The death of your baby probably added a lot but that was fairly recent.<P>Renae, does your husband talk to anyone about this (aside from the counselling sessions). Maybe he is getting stirred up by others.<P>I find with my husband, he's the greatest guy in the world until his family talks to him...and then he goes crazy. But since we've had minimum contact with them for the last year, he has begun to see what they are like and how much they really care about him...and how much I care about him.<P>Do you think it is possible for your family to move to another location. Maybe getting away from his Church and the people he knows may wake him up.<P>One last piece of superstitious advice - you can choose to ignore it, I won't mind. Is your house south facing? (i.e. when you are standing at your front door looking outside, are you facing south?) If so, move at once.<P>What are you feeling now Renae? Do you think there is hope for your marriage? Do you want there to be hope? How are your children doing at this point?<P>Hope you don't get tired reading all the questions! Please take care. Lots of hugs and prayers for you. xxooxxxxooo.

I know I am an outsider to this and have not been involved in this long topic, but I don't know why you never went to the police or anyone suggested it regarding the physical abuse? Did your husband ever touch your children? I don't know what you were trying to save married to a wife-beater. You have our prayers, but you also need to wake up and get out of this dangerous situation. I think especially when you decide to make the final break, you need police protection. Please do whatever necessary to protect yourself and your children!!!

Renae:<P>I don't want to start controversy on your thread, but I was somewhat taken aback at lonelywife's comment about "if your house is facing south, move immediately"<P>I've never heard of such a thing and as a born-again child of God, filled with the Person of the Holy Spirit...you are not subject to 'superstitions'.<P>Anyway.....would like to hear how you are doing.<P>[censored] from Texas

H says I wrecked his whole week by "mud-slinging" in the counseling session! I'm there to deal head-on with hurts and issues, not to go there to have a pleasant visit!!!!!! I've been as tactful as possible considering the level of pain I've endured for years, and he can't take one week? <P>This "crucify your feelings" and "stop the negative junk" religion he's got has kept him incredibly immature!!! If he doesn't start doing some serious emotional, spiritual, and marital work and now, he's starting to realize he's not only going to lose me but his business also. <P>He is very overwhelmed with his whole life right now, and yesterday and this morning were terrible! (Yes, Lonelywife, he is an emotional rollercoaster!) Wish I had his behavior on video tape to show Counselor and Pastor! They should refer him to a specialized therapist while I move out by 11/1! I have made big progress in getting critical business done....thank God!<P>I had a very tense night trying to sleep, so need to go get a nap in right now while the kids are with friends... <P>Your support is helping to keep me focused on going forward. Thanks!!!!!<BR>~Renae <P>

I'm glad it ruined his week. I'm glad his life feels messed up. About time, don't you think? You can rent a videorecorder short-term for discreet taping if you don't have one.<P>Be prepared to call 911 at a moments notice, and get ready to set up a restraining order at his first threat or unwanted touching. <P> Are the children moving with you? You need to make sure that they do not stay with him. They would be his next victims. Get a lawyer, through legal aid if necessary, to make sure they go with you.<p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited October 14, 2000).]

[censored], Karenna, Lonelywife, and all...<P>Someone sent me this website:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb951/page1.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb951/page1.html</A> <P>Divorce & remarriage part is at: <A HREF="http://search.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0806/q0806.html#page2" TARGET=_blank>http://search.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0806/q0806.html#page2</A> <P>I thought the whole site was all very insightful regarding marriage, divorce, remarriage, marital abuse, etc. <P>Whether or not a Christian woman can Biblically separate or divorce a controller/abuser has been a very troubling question to me this past year. This site seems to say I can separate, but if I divorce I am not completely free. Please comment!!! <P>[censored], if you have time to read through this site, would you please let me know if you agree with their position? Your theological opinion on this would be appreciated!!!<P>Another question not answered for me at this site is:<P>I have heard it preached that the Bible permits divorce only on the grounds of 1.sexual immorality and 2.abandonment. <BR>I always thought of the first as a spouse who cheats, commits adultery, etc. But does it also include the husband who violates the marriage through habitual use of pornography or the Controller/Abuser who expects his wife to submit to all his sexual demands and is not really loving her? And does abandonment just mean leaving your home, or is it also the man who is not functioning as a true marital partner, such as the chronic workaholic, the man who is married to other interests, the man who isn't emotionally acting married to his wife? It seems to me that these are violations but do they fall under the two Biblical categories for permitting a person to divorce and be free? I know this is a loaded question but I haven't seen it addressed anywhere. What do you think? I guess I'm asking because I have felt abandoned by my spouse because he hasn't been really growing with me through the years and have been sexually misused.<BR>I do not want to stretch the Bible's meaning too far on this.<P>Thanks for your responses!! <BR>~Renae<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited October 14, 2000).]

My personal belief is that substance abuse/addiction and physical/spiritual/SEVERE verbal abuse does constitute Abandonment within the Biblical meaning.<P>Can you ever be free? The Catholic doctrine of anullment is a great blessing of Grace. I myself am not Catholic, but do believe in Grace. <P>Do you have to stay single until he dies just in case he comes around and wants to try again? That is harsh. Pray and seek your own inspiration on that. I believe that if your H abandoned you in the marriage by abuse/adultery/addiction the Lord still has a mission in life for you. Ask Him what that is. My church does allow remarriage.

Renae:<P>First of all, I never, ever dreamed I would be a 'divorce statistic'. During the 4 years I was separated from my wife, I never dated and I made every effort to reconcile with her.<P>Finally, in December of last year, I felt the Lord 'released' me from the marriage because I felt, in compassion; He was tired of seeing me hurt and basically wanted to put me out of my misery.<P>My wife left just a few months before our 30th Anniversary and we were separated for 4 years before the divorce.<P>I used to be very harsh and legalistic about people who divorce and remarry. In fact, when I first started posting on Marriage Builders, I was very 'intolerant' and harsh on those who divorce.<P>I said many times in my threads/posts/replies that "it's til DEATH do us part and not til DIVORCE do us part".<P>Somebody responded to me and said "Yes, God hates divorce, but He doesn't hate those who divorce".<P>This totally changed my view towards those that had divorced. Then, when I saw I Cor 7:15 "...if the unbeliever depart, the brother or sister is not under bondage, For God has called us to peace"<P>My wife, although a 'believer' in Christ, was an 'unbeliever' in our marriage covenant. Therefore, I do feel I am under bondage to stay unmarried.<P>Also, Paul does say "it is better to marry than to burn (with lust)" (I Cor 7).<P>Also, the very first thing that God said "wasn't good" about His creation was that...<BR>"it's not good for man to be alone".<P>Remember, the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus concerning divorce? They said "didn't Moses allow divorce to be written into the Law?"<P>Jesus replied he did...however; it was ONLY due to the hardness of men's hearts, but that from the beginning it was not so.<P>In other words, God gave man an 'escape' from marriage through divorce because of the hardness of his heart, even though it wasn't meant to be so.<P>Since I am now on the 'divorce' side of marriage....I can see both sides.<P>God's ultimate, perfect will is for couples to stay together and if they separate, even divorce, it is His perfect will for them to reconcile and even re-marry (each other).<P>However, God's will is 'not fragile' and if a believer re-marries; God is not going to fall off His throne!<P>Each person has to hear from the Lord for himself/herself...there are no hard, fast rules or formulas. God has called us to peace (I Cor 7:15).<P>Renae: I did breeze over the marriage part of the web-site you mentioned and they have some pretty good things to say.<P>I am a strong advocate of 'marital separation', but not divorce. I know separation for a season (hopefully ultimately resulting in reconciliation) can be a tremendous positive.<P>It was in my case. If my wife hadn't left me, I wouldn't be the man I am today (or man I am becoming).<P>Marriage counselors, even some Pastors make the terrible mistake of thinking the only issue is 'getting the couple back together', this is wrong...especially if they each have separate issues to work on and work out.<P>Also, if one of the two is not completely healed, though they come back together; I feel they will eventually break apart again (like putting a new patch on an old garment or new wine into old wineskins).<P>I like what someone told me when I was first separated. In the natural, 1/2 + 1/2 = 1<BR>however; in the Kingdom of God, this doesn't hold true.<P>In God's economy.....1 + 1 = 1 // In other words, God doesn't want to bring 2 broken halves back together to make a whole. For then, all you would have would be a broken whole.<P>God wants to take 2, complete whole people and put them together to make 1 complete whole.<P>Renae....you have heard from a multitude of counselors and God knows you have tried to do the right thing. Now, it is time for you to hear from the Lord for yourself and whatever decision you make....let it be ruled and supported by peace.<P>For the umpteenth time, I will repeat myself. The longer you stay with your husband, the longer you prolong him ever facing his issues and coming to grips with himself. <P>Hope this has been of some help.<P>Your friend/brother in Christ:<P>[censored] from Texas<BR>

Thank you, [censored]. You are a dear brother!<P>Suffered a painful Friday and Saturday due to his over-reaction to a business situation, which caused him to hurt again over a past issue of grief he hasn't healed from. After all the projection, blaming, shaming, etc. subsided, Sat. eve. he wanted to talk about whether I have desire to reconcile and if I will return to attending his church. I told him I have no desire for the way the relationship has been and hard to have hope for the future, but yes I could gain interest if I see him move in a positive direction. I reminded him of the reasons I have left his church and that I cannot return. I feel the church only feeds the problem too and we need to grow.<P>Did my best to celebrate his birthday on Sunday, etc. Still try to love but have to be firm on the need for change.<P>I feel that I need to really step away from posting for a while. I need to seriously hear God right now, pray, fast...whatever.<BR>I have to guard against getting hard hearted.<BR>It drained hope when H didn't admit wrong at counseling, Counselor had no encouragement, and pastor said he couldn't do much more.<BR>I've got to focus forward and toward God.<BR>Thanks to all of you for the support and prayers!

Renae:<P>God has given you a special grace to demonstrate true, apape (unconditional) love towards your husband.<P>However, you do not, repeat....do not need to go back to his church or anything that smacks of legalism/religion.<P>If you are both able to reconcile in the future, it would be best to find a new church and start over.<P>But, I still feel you are doing him more harm than good (for now) by remaining with him. Really the separation would be for his good, more than yours.<P>I understand your need to withdraw from posting for a season....but I hope you will feel free to stay in touch with me via e-mail, even if you just feel the need to vent.<P>[censored] From Texas

Renae, I don't have any advice or really much to say. I just wanted to let you know that I cried the entire time I read your posts, my heart hurts for you and you are in my prayers. Life is to short and you sound like too good of a person to be hurting like this. God bless you and keep you in his care.

Renae, I've posted to you as constance on another forum, then I saw this thread...<P>I think you have come a long way since your first posts in Aug. You have been able to see your h more objectively as you separate emotionally. You have also been through a lot at the hands of this pastor.<P>I hope you don't leave off posting. I don't believe God speaks to us in a vacuum. This is a forum for you to hash out ideas.<P>I believe asking right now whether God would allow divorce is not the real issue. Ok, so what if he said yes, you can!<P>I've been dealing with all my h's infidelity and I have very clear grounds for divorce, but still I don't want to run out and get one!<P>My situation is different since there are not abuse issues. I first worked to salvage the marriage through Plan A. It is only since my h is totally repentant and focused FOR THE FIRST TIME on being there for me to help me heal, that I have begun to focus on myself.<P>But again, your situation is different. Pray for wisdom, because that is something we are specifically promised if we ask for it. We are not promised any direct guidance, God uses means like your friends here and your very bright mind that has been questioning.<P>Don't worry so much about divorce right now. In a very real sense the present is the only thing we have. What do you need to do right now to heal, to care for your dear children?<P>Is your husband able to provide you a safe environment physically and mentally to do this? If not, think about separation, it does not equal divorce.<P>It will give you space to heal, and him a chance to face himself and his problems on his own. Let him see that you are not the source of his problems. Get out of the way, you have been trying so long to "help" him, right?

ONE BIG QUESTION:<P>Just found out that Dr. Harley is doing his Marriagebuilders Seminar in a few weeks in a location that is so close by that I wouldn't need a hotel room! Do you think this is worth a try for my situation? If you all think so, and my spouse agrees, I would need to register soon. Your advice would be appreciated!!!

Only if HE pays for it up front, and makes the reservations himself. Do not put down ANY money of your own for this. Be cautious. Tell him all about it and how much you want it, but leave the decision and arrangements up to him.<P>But if he can put his cash on the line for your marriage, it may be a wonderful experience. Just do not drag him there. Let him show his intentions. And do not let him use an promise of going to the seminar as a way to sneak back into the same old control habits. <P>My humble opinion is to stick with the separation for now. Go to the MB seminar only if he will pay for it on his own initiative.<P>Love and prayers!<P>Karenna

Renae:<P>I really couldn't add anything to what Karenna shared. I think she has given you, true Godly Wisdom concerning this.<P>I concur wholeheartedly with her input!<P>[censored] from Texas