Cut and pasted from several days ago:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So LEAVE already. Let him file for divorce if that is what he wants to do. You don't have to cooperate at all. But if he harasses you in ANY WAY at all, go get a nice tight and tough restraining order on him. And make sure you enforce it until he has completed his domestic violence batterers workshops, anger management classes, parenting classes, and has proven to you that he has fully repented in his heart, mind and habits.<P>So go get a volunteer lawyer who will help you get whatever protective orders you need. You will also need temporary orders regarding property and support. Get yourself a decent, honest psychotherapist who isn't Kow-Tow-ing to an ideology more than ministering to the actual needs of her client.<P>Renae, you have done your time.. You have earned your exit. Now make a clean, but graceful, separation. Use whatever specialists you need to use. Accountants, attorneys, therapists, spiritually guided pastors, social workers, teachers, doctors etc. may be needed at different points in time. Fear not! Don't try to be an island.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Call the YWCA. They will have a good list of resources. Maybe even a social worker or someone who can help you navigate this Red Sea. Start somewhere. You need to be out several weeks BEFORE THE 25TH OF DECEMBER. <P>Or are you even using Christmas as an IDOL?<P>Love,<P>Karenna<P>

I'm sorry, but after continuing to read this thread, I don't understand one single bit why you are still there. He said that we NEED men to watch over us women, oh no, that kind of ignorance deserves to be alone and suffer in there own pitiful existance(sp?). Renae, I know you hurt and it seems extremely hard for you to leave but come on, the man sounds horribly insane. Abuse in any form only gets worse and you MUST remove yourself and your children from it. When I was growing up my mother married a monster who said a lot of the same things your husband is saying and had the same mindset. It was horrible and it is something that I carried around for a very long time and the pain that I saw my mother go through was unbearable. I carried that pain into my adult life and it greatly affected my attitude toward men, there was so much hatred and it took so very much for me to get over that. Now, do you really want your children to go through this? If you won't leave for your own good then do it for your children. They are so perceptive and pay attention more then adults think they do. God have mercy on the man who calls himself a man of God and treats his wife like someone less then himself. I wish you luck and pray for you and your safety.

Renae:<P>Your husband obviously knows nothing about 'self-love'. Not 'selfish love' but 'self-love'.<P>Jesus said "You shall love your neighbor (wife) as you love yourself.." - What He was saying is, "we will love others in direct proportion as to how we love ourselves"<P>If we don't love ourselves, we certainly can't love others. It's impossible to try and love others when you don't love, even hate/despise yourself (been there, done that)<P>The lack of self-esteem, self-hatred and feeling that you are only a sinner saved by Grace, a useless worm, piece of garbage (which is a doctrine taught even in some evangelical circles) is what destroys self-esteem and breeds self-hatred.<P>We are not sinners saved by grace, I was, but now I am "the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus" - I am a 'saint' who 'sins' and still needs Jesus' blood to cleanse me everyday.<P>Your husband obviously has never been taught this and when others compliment you, this enrages him, because he obviously hates/despises himself so much.<P>He needs a personal revelation of the Love of God and he needs to begin to love himself, so that in turn, he can love others (namely you, his wife)with the God kind of Love (Agape).<P>Yet, my counsel is unchanged..you must get away from this man for both your good and his.<P>[censored] from Texas

Renae,<P>In case you still haven't figured it out, I post under the name Constance at Family Life.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It has been a long road to the health I have now, but now it is time to drop the other codependent behavior--stop focusing on fixing H and do what is right for me and the kids to get out of this abuse! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am so glad to finally hear you say this! You are not the problem, but if there is any hope of him changing it is when you are not there to blame...<P>The initial move to pick up and go may be tough, but think of the peaceful life you and the kids can have.<P>And something else you didn't say - you have climbed your way to a lot of healthy thought in your situation, think how much faster you can grow when you are not in range for his barrages. YOU will blossom like a tree planted by the river...<P>Referring back to a thought earlier in this thread - you are not running from trials by leaving. The external reality of dealing with him as the father of your kids remains, the trial continues in that sense. But you will have air and light. You can do this, Renae. From the first time I wrote you, I admired the strength I "saw" in you.<P>Why would you possibly wait until after the holidays?? Are you lying to yourself? Give yourself a "get out of jail free" card right now. You can then include him in the Christmas celebration or not as you see fit.<P>Misogynist, huh? I've heard the term, but that's the first time I've heard an explanation...<P>Renae, you can do this. You are all those wonderful things that you mentioned others see in you and more.<P>

Get yourself out first. Then extract the girls, by legal forces if necessary. I do not know whether children of their ages have a say, just input or total control over which parent they live with in Minnesota, but that is okay. Even in the worst case scenario where they stay with him for some time, since he is a misogynist, he will turn on them too, eventually. <P>Or perhaps just on one of them. <P>Extract them one at a time if you have to. Or if they end up staying with him most of the time, well, it isn't any worse than with you there demonstrating how not to have a marriage. <P>Renae, get some outside help now. You need a lawyer and a social worker to navigate here. With the right help you will be able to get through this Red Sea without drowning. Even if your hems and shoes get soaked. Start with the free help sources, and let them help you figure out how to access what you need to go from there. You have too many technical needs for me to even try to help you from here.<P>Best wishes for a happy and peaceful Christmas, without your evil H.

I had a very positive day yesterday (inspite of H's evil last night)...very focused on where I'm headed! Now today will be another step. One day at a time.<P>H was a monster last night...I feel bad how the 13 yr. old got caught in the middle of it. Horrifying!! Then he said it was all because of accumulated irritation from me! He can't stand it that I'm getting healthier: not accepting his abuse, planning some fun things to do with friends (who I'd basically lost for years), getting a life!.... I'm even exercising and dropping the weight (Hallelujah!!)....<P>He has always complained and spiritually condemned me if I appear at all "independent". He wants me as an extention of himself and miserable along with him. I refuse to continue as such! It's really irritating him! <P>Thank you to each of you for what you have contributed toward my growth in this situation! Blessings to you all!! <P>

Glad to hear you are feeling stronger Renae, but please remember that you are in the process of teaching your children new behaviors as well and you also need to be their protector against his monstrosity, calmly asserting in a respectful way that he may not talk to the children as such or you will remove them to the other house until he calms down. God gives us a spirit of self-control so blaming others for his lack of it is unacceptable.

SueB:<BR>Very excellent point you made. I will remember this. Thanks!<BR> <BR>How are things going for you? We'ren't you out out of town for a 10-day period and reassessing your situation with your H? Do you have children also? I pray you are doing well and staying safe. You are so wise. <BR>Blessings to you!<BR>Love,<BR>Renae

Hi Renae,<BR>Well, as you are, I am learning to speak my feelings more honestly in spite of his rage. And yes, the question for both of us at this point is what do you plan to do to get along with a spouse who does not share your spiritual values, for it is a two way coin. I thin my H fels he has more to lose than I do and that may be so since I am more comfortable and independent than he is. I really am learnig how much I have allowed disrespect to occur by not putting a limit or stop to it. Though in many ways, I am the victim, the truth is I have allowed it, so must accept my part in that. It is very difficult living here at times. Last weekend was one of them.<P>On the positive side, I guess H is agreeing to starting a dialog with Pastor again, so who knows what God will do with us. I struggle with learning a bit more about being self absorbed enough to learn about self care. Pretty hard for me. I have difficulty expressing anger and that is my daily task these days as well, to verbalize immediately and matter of factly, no matter how he responds. Hard habit to break. going from not being allowed to express it as a child to now forcing myself to do so. Lots of tears these days as I grieve the loss of the dream of a godly marriage as identified in Eph 5. Reading a new book on feelings to get a better handle on them. When one partner overloads emotionally, it just seems like I put all my feelings away and that hasn't been healthy for me.<P>My children are all grown but I have two step-daughters who spend time here. Their mother could be the pea in a pod with her ex/my H, perhaps that is why they didn't get along. I find dealing with her a pain. Got enough in my lap without her, but the kids deserve better than they get from these two and I guess with my experience with children, I have been elected to putting some stability in their life.<P>Anyway, that is how it goes here. I pray for you and ask the same from you.

The past few days I have had more strength and joy than I've had....I praise God for that!! I can be driving and suddenly start singing...!! <P>Last night (after 11 p.m.), H approached me, and kept on trying to force on me his perception of us and me! It was horrible. All untrue!!!!!! Then when I had a serious look on my face in reaction to all his false accusations against me, he pushes me in front of a mirror and says--See! look at yourself! You've got a bad attitude!!!!!!! (Wrong! I'm just frustrated/hurt by all that he just said to me and sad that he never wakes up to the truth!!!!!!)<P>He won't believe me when I tell him what my motives really are. He's got a bad picture painted of me in his head that does not exist in reality!!!!! God help him!!!!! <P>I am so glad that "we are more than conqueorers through HIM that loves us!" God knows my heart...Last night & now I just pray as the Psalmist did, "Search me, and know my heart...see if there be any wicked way in me ..."<P>Though he blocked me, I finally got away from H and into my closet & sat against the door... God, show me, I thought--is he deceived & hardening his heart since the counseling or am I the bad one H says?!!!...quickly, I reached for my Bible, and it fell open to Proverbs. On the pages in front of me STOOD OUT:<P>"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Happy is the man that feareth always: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief." (28: 13-14) <BR>(I believe God was telling me that my happiness lately since I got focus off H, is from God. And H was confronted in counseling and is now calling all I said a lie. He's denying it all, hardening his heart, refusing to change!) <P>At one point I rebuked his talk--did I do the right thing, God? I looked down at the pages in front of me...(27:5) "Open rebuke is better than secret love."<BR>I sensed God was telling me I had done right.<P>H claimed that he has loved me....am I confused, God, is this love????.....I looked down again at the pages in front of me...<BR>(26:24-28)....<P>"He that hateth dissasembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him; When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart. When hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation. Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him. A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin." <P>WOW!! I think it is no coincidence that my Bible opened on its own to that passage when I was frantically getting away from H last night. What do you think???? <BR>Have you ever had something like this happen?<BR>!!!! All I know is that I feel great peace inside today. <P>

SueB:<BR>I posted my last post before I had read your writing... Now I will respond:<BR>I understand what you say! I was never one to express anger either outwardly, so depression was the only way it could go. I could journal it out,which helps me deal with it but in some cases as with my H, I realize that how will he hear truth, have opportunity to stop the harm toward me and change for his own good? I have come to think that at times God's word within me will come out--"it is profitable for rebuke, correction..." <P>I know God is trying to teach me through all this to not be timid but speak what I know is right boldly (in love, of course but firmly).<BR>Jesus expressed appropriate anger and rebuke toward wrongs. Part of the "codependent" nature is to be too yielding to others, even letting them stomp all over me. I've got to stop being like that and develop a confident appearance that doesn't attract an abuser. I had the look of vulnerability (15 yrs ago) that was attractive to a man like H who was out to find someone to control/abuse. And now? Well, I'm healthier and it repels him!! <P>Yes, let's keep each other in prayer!!<BR>Love to you,<BR>Renae <BR>

A long time ago, I could journal and then be able to verbalize my feelings, etc. now though Pastor challenges me to experience all of my feelings and to work on being verbal immediately. Oh if only you could have, when he threw you in front of the mirror, had been able to tell him how appalled you are at at his behavior, that you find it stinky like an old pair of tennis shoes never washed, that you are angry at his lack of respect for you, that you feel violated by his behavior and tarnished that he feels he has the freedom to not treat you like the cherished vessel God says you are. Sometimes in our quest not to sin in our anger, we do not realize that when we hold in our anger, we are sinning as well against ourselves. We are allowing a breeding ground for bitter envy to grow. I really was confronted by James 3 in that I always have seen those verses as explanation for my H not receiving the things that he asks for, the selfish intent for his desires, but my eyes have really been opened about the sin of bitter envy in my own heart in myself and how God tells us not to deny these feelings! It really made an impact on me and I really have been praying for the boldness to be more direct in all of my feelings since then. Tis frightening but I konw God wants me whole in all areas. I believe God uses all things for His purpose and I have something here to learn in the process of removing the dross from my own life. Otherwise the pattern will reoccur in some other way some where else down the line. My marriage may not be healed, but I will be.<P>Hang in there lady, but do protect your children please. I could always be angry for my children, but not for myself. Now I don't have the children to protect, so now must learn to protect myself with the truth. We are growing! <P>Also, when I hear the love words come out of the hateful sounding critical mouth, I go back to 1 Cor 13...love is kind, is this behavior kind, love is not rude, is this behavior not rude, etc....I now ask him is that kind, etc. when he brings up the past, I say love keeps no record of wrongs, etc. It also is a challenge to me to keep thing in the today mode and that is why we need to deal with our feelings today so that we don't have stuff from the past to be bitter about. Something more to think through and pray about Renae.<p>[This message has been edited by SueB (edited November 30, 2000).]

Renae:<P>"...HE PUSHES YOU IN FRONT OF A MIRROR????"<P>Renae, Renae......."he pushes...?" This is physical abuse...how much longer will you tolerate this?<P>Did my post on him not having self-love mean anything at all?<P>How long my sister, will you continue to enable him?<P>[censored] from Texas

Yes, [censored], you are right- he lacks self-love, he's unable to love me, and as both you and SueB remarked, being pushed around is part of the abuse, disrespect.... I told Counselor last time about his grabbing and pushing me. <P>Lots of activities going on pre-holiday (hopefully & purposely won't see much of H), then expect to have my parents and brother here for Christmas Day dinner....then I intend to GO LIVE at the old house. That's what I believe I must do. <P><BR>

Hello Renae,<BR>Sorry I haven't posted in a while. See my note in response to yours below.<P>Renae, I am glad you are getting stronger.<P>Although you know deep in you heart that you need to leave your husband now, you can only truly leave him when you are ready. I just hope you and your children will be safe until that time. It is very unfortunate that the counselling did not resolve any of the real issues.<P>Let's hope that all the trials and tribulations you have and are going through are for a reason that we can't know yet.<P>Renae, keep your chin up, take care and keep us posted.

Good to hear from you, Lonelywife! <P>Sorry...my strength has fallen again!!!<P>On Sunday afternoon I enjoyed a musical event hosted by a couple I used to sing with at my former church. It was such healing to be there! But I no sooner than walked in the door at home, but H was ready for WAR!!<BR>I won't post all the detail here except to say that my new Christmas dress, which I was wearing, got ripped a foot long down the back!!! I'm devastated about the dress of course, but the worst tragedy is this relationship. I e-mailed Counselor about the details yesterday and am waiting for her response. <P>Last night he was very offensive to me in front of the kids. I told him that I refuse to be treated like that anymore, but he just condemned me and justified himself with religious talk and distorted reasonings. Sick!!! <P>I'm going to get out of here. I promise myself I will!!!!!!!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 05, 2000).]

You are sick, Renae! Why do you call a spineless and powerless female counselor???? You should have called the Police and filed assault and battery charges. HE IS A CRIMINAL! And you are his enabler. <P>Call the police and district attorney today to press charges against him for domestic violence, assault and battery. And that is for ripping your dress, and pushing you in front of the mirror, and anything else he has done recently.<P>Then get to a BATTERED WOMEN'S counseling place and LISTEN TO THEM! Your sin will be visited upon the heads of your daughters or their children soon enough if you refuse to show them the right way to behave. They may become abusers themselves just as likely as victims.<P>You should never have planned to wait for party season to be over. Just go now. You do not honor God, or your obligation as a mother, by waiting for after Christmas.<P>Praying that you will calcify your backbone tonight....<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Renae:<P>Karenna is right on! I too wonder why you waste time with your counselor. <P>While scripture says "in a multitude of counselors there is safety", the flip side of that is "..there is also confusion".<P>It's time for you to follow your heart and go. It's unfortunate that it is the Xmas Season...but your welfare is more vital.<P>I was sickened at the scene you faced Sunday when you came home from the musical. <P>I'll say it for the umpteenth time.......<BR>"WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO ENABLE HIM?"<P>Still your friend.....<P>[censored] from Texas

Hello Renae,<P>How are you doing? Where are you now? Please don't wait for Christmas to leave. You need to protect yourself and your children NOW.<P>This is the worst time of the year to be doing this but it's time you left this abuse and start on the road to a safe, secure and happy life.<P>What will another Christmas with this husband mean in the long run? Renae, you know we are all thinking about your welfare and happiness. I am the last person in the world that would wish the end of any marriage but after reading all your posts and attempts, I really see no change in your husband.<P>YOU are NOT a failure if you leave this marriage. It is your husband who will be the biggest loser. See my note in the other post.<P>Renae, know that I am thinking about you and praying for you. I only want the best for you. Take care and let us know how you are doing.

Thank you, LW, and all.<P>Counselor's e-mail response was as expected. Here's an excerpt:<P>"Continue to do what is right. He knows what to do to get you angry and push your buttons - so don't give him the victory. Be godly and he will have to come to grips with the fact that HE has a temper and is sinning. <BR>Confront him with - you are yelling, you are not talking to me in a loving manner, what would God think about your behavior right now?, etc. ....His angrily telling you to leave is incomplete - and go where? what about the kids? what about money? etc., so just ignore that for now. He may have said it just to get you upset and not really expecting you to leave. If you are<BR>unsafe, get away and call the police, go to a shelter,etc.<P>Since you have tried confronting him with two others, the next step is to take it to his pastor. If I were you I would because it is biblical even if you don't think it will work. Joshua may have doubted that the walls<BR>were going to come down by following God's instructions, but he followed them anyway. What would his pastor say to him about him asking you to leave? I doubt that the pastor would agree, he has NO BIBLICAL grounds<BR>at all to ask you to leave! Yes, I know you think he will be upset and he probably will, but you are not to cover his sin and act like things are fine when they are not. He is sinning in his actions to you. However, be careful not to sin back at him. Finally, we are told to love our enemies, if he has become one, you are still called to love him. You have seen how a loving response in the<BR>past has turned him around.Pray about your decisions and act wisely - not hastily."<P>See? No advise to separate.<P>This weekend was a "reality check"for me. Fri. eve. I met with 3 former college roommates....They have this "life" that is growing, happy, functional,relational, bubbling over with confidence, while I was quiet most of the time, feeling totally emotionally sick & inferior, unable to fit in at all. As soon as I returned home, H sternly asked what we had talked about, if it was about him!!!! (grrr)<P>Then Sat. the kids & I worked at a store as a fund-raiser for their sports club ...this was good for me...I have been afraid of not being able to work outside the home, like I wouldn't be able to concentrate, stay motivated, etc...but I did fine! It was healing for me to experience this and be around others in a positive atmosphere.<P>Also, after missing several Sundays of church for various reasons and feeling trapped by H's rule against building relationships there, I was giving up on going to church anywhere. Yesterday I went to the "grace" church and it was good, restoring my interest!!<P>Somehow if I can just break away from here, maybe I can have a life. There is such a cyle of depression & "learned helplessness" living in abuse, that there needs to be some experiences like this to restore hope and motivate one to leave. I think I had that this weekend.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited December 11, 2000).]