I have been married 11 years. I got married at 19. In the beginning of our marriage my husband was verbally abusive. He would, without any warning or preamble, walk in the door and tell me that he didn't love me anymore, he never really did and that the marriage was over. He was/is manic. After >3 years I told him I was leaving. He said he had no idea it was such a problem, that I should just learn to ignore what he said when he was mad. I felt/feel that I shouldn't have to hear such hurtful things, mad or not. He did change some. He no longer says that he doesn't love me when he's mad. He still, however, jumps on divorce whenever there is a problem or he is angry. If there is a problem in our marriage, or he's simply in a foul mood, he tells me that its over, the marriage just didn't work out. If the given problem is going to be fixed, I always have to be the one to fix it. I have to find the answers myself.

We now, and have for some time, worked opposite shifts. I don't see him at all during the week. On the weekends he only wants to work on his hobbies or 'hang out' with our friends. He considers the group friend time 'us time' as we are both in the same room. It has been >2 years since we went out to dinner together. If I want him to go with me anywhere it's like pulling teeth. He complains endlessly about having to sacrifice his hobby time, get dressed, drive etc etc etc. I just stopped bothering.

I cannot not talk to him about my life when he isn't around. I can't share my ups and downs at work, home etc. He tells me that if it has nothing to do with him directly, then how can I expect him to care about it. It's a waist of his time.

I have told him time and again that these things bother me a great deal, that he can't keep doing these things. Yet he was shocked when this all finally came to a header this past Friday. I tried to tell that there are problems we need to fix and (as expected) he said we should call it quits and get divorced. In turn I suggested a temporary (hopefully) separation. Here's the part that I think bothers me the most... He said separation is not an option. If he walks out that door he is going back home (~3000 miles away) to live with his family. He said this is because, "I can't live in this city and not be with you, I will kill myself. I'll blow my brains out, I just couldn't handle it." I have always known that he has a serious self-confidence problem, but I didn't expect that. If he is serious, then I feel he needs to get out and get help. If he doesn’t mean it, then he is being manipulative in the worst way, and I defiantly want him out. In addition to all that he told me that if we did separate, "we are free to do ANYTHING we want with anyone. That's the terms of the separation!"

I feel that any chance for in-house reconciliation was lost with the suicide threat. I think that he needs to find his own self worth and that would be best done on his own. I haven’t been able to help him do that in our 12 years together, though I have sincerely tried. I want to be his wife/companion not his counselor, though I wonder if it’s already too late.

Any thoughts, help, comments would be appreciated.

Paisley

Paisley, using threats of suicide is abusive in itself. And/or a sign he really needs help. Can you find a crisis intervention or abuse hotline to call and talk to? They can give you the best answers, but it does not sound like your marriage is healthy at all; and these things do not generally get better by themselves.

He is manipulating you by putting conditions on your separation. Conditions that he KNOWS you would never agree to, therefore it is YOUR fault if you don't go through with it. He has controlled you in this way for your whole marriage it sounds like. He knows that you want to be married, therefore he can use that knowledge against you. I don't know what to do, but I think that you should probably separate and let the chips fall where they may. If he is unable to change and/or goes off the deep end, then he is not someone that you should be with any longer. You are not responsible for his mental status. Do not take his threats as anything other than the fact that he is trying to control you.

He might even act out on some of them. Finding another woman, etc. But you need to make sure that you continue trying, but take care of yourself. If he threatens suicide, tell him you love him dearly and want everything to work out and to have a happy life with him, but it will take BOTH of you working on changing. Tell him you see that he made progress before, and you are confident that he can make further progress. Pump him up. Give him confidence that he can change. Tell him you believe, but you cannot continue on like this. If you really want to be with him, but a BETTER him, then be firm, but loving.

Separate, but be loving. He will try to manipulate you, but if he changed in the past, he can change in the future. It sounds like he loves you, but just doesn't have any idea how to deal with things. Tell him you want to be with him as a loving, compassionate husband. Don't say anything that will tear him down. Build him up, but tell him that in order for you to survive, you really believe that separation is best.

If he leaves and doesn't come back, then it would not have worked anyway. But it doesn't sound to me like that is what he wants. He just wants the control that this threat has over you.

Maybe I am just a hopeful guy, but I really believe that positive strength can change so much more than anger and shame. If you love him, love him enough to be strong and firm. But pump him up and tell him you believe in him, but have to protect yourself. You want to be happy with him. Maybe if he sees that you are serious, he will be able to cope and change. He will not feel threatened by your separation, but will be spurred into changing.

I don't know, it just sounds funny. Like he is more scared of loosing you, so he is taking the offensive by ensuring that you are always on the defensive.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have told him time and again that these things bother me a great deal, that he can't keep doing these things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">P777, so sorry to hear of your circumstances. May I suggest some books by Townsend and Cloud? Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage are two of their books that helped me tremendously in circumstances somewhat similar to yours. Bottom line, he *can* keep doing those things. It's up to you to decide how to respond. My H got boundaried right out of the house. I couldn't change him, but I couldn't tolerate the behavior he gave me either. I paved a path a mile wide for him to get counselling for his ptsd, but he refused. My H never threatened suicide directly, but he'd say things like "there is no future", "I'll be dead by my birthday" or "everything is dark." Truly, I feared that I would be a widow.

I learned a long time ago to always take any threat of suicide seriously. Let the person know that you care, that it would be a terrible loss, that there is so much to live for. More recently, my counselor suggested asking "how would you do it." Ack! The way my words are twisted round and round by the time they reach my H's ears, he'd probably think I was making recommendations! Personally, I don't feel comfortable with that one. I mention it because your H's response indicated a specific method, which is definitely a red flag.

My C told me the appropriate response to a suicide threat is to call 911. The ONLY time a person can be given mental health treatment without giving consent happens when the person is a danger to himself or others. In my case, H adamantly denies that he would ever do himself in. His dark remarks would make me quake in my boots anyway. The person who has the best chance of making an accurate assessment is a fully trained and qualified mental health professional. I told my H I would call 911 and have him evaluated the next time he talked about being dead soon. In December of last year, he produced some artwork that nearly had my Counselor sending the men in white suits after him. The responsibility for his own self care lies with him. I had tried to carry it for him, and it was draining the life force right out of me. My methods were flawed, obviously. I thought I was doing the right thing, and I wasn't at all.

Whether the suicide threat is real or a manipulation to keep you compliantly quaking in your boots, it's beyond the realm of acceptable behavior. If he's truly suicidal, it needs to be addressed. The help he needs exceeds what you can provide, and only HE can decide whether to seek and accept that help. If this is a scare tactic, it's up to YOU to implement loving boundaries to make it stop. Being governed by fear and guilt is no way to live. You can be compassionate yet firm at the same time. Obviously, no one wants to see your H dead, but that doesn't mean you're going to spend your life tiptoeing on eggshells either. It's a tough line to toe. Keep up posted.

After I posted the original message he decided to come home early from work to talk. No notice, no warning, nothing. The problem was that I am taking college classes on-line and had a BIG final due last night. I told him about it a number of times in the last week, yet he had to pick last night. <sigh> I don't think his poor timing was consciously orchestrated, still it's frustrating.

During the course of the conversation he wanted to know why I have been rather unresponsive the last week. I told that the suicide comment really bothered me and why. He tried to dismiss it; he said he didn't really mean it. I said I wouldn't put up with him saying things he doesn't mean, especially something like that. He actually looked at me and told me that even if he did do it, it wouldn't be my fault. !!! Rather than give him the reaction he probably wanted, I just said, &#8220;I know that.&#8221; He didn't like it, he then snapped, "I know you wouldn't care if I did myself in." Argh! Mind games, I just don't have the patience for it anymore. The more he says things like this, the more apathetic I get. How can we have any progress with comments like those? I just shut down.

The threat of suicide is manipulation. My WH (STBX) other woman, called me with suicide, to say that if I or my H were to call her H and tell him about their affair, that she would commit suicide. She did this after her last conversation on the phone with my WH, and no contact after that. So she puts the guilt trip on me. She couldn't get my H to comply with her when she threatened suicide with him, so she went to the weakest link. I fell for it, stupid stupid me. I fell for her crys, her pleading, her telling me she never loved my husband, she has only loved her husband.

I advice you to get counseling for your H. Speak to the hospitals and they will have referral sights at the hospital, give you information about the Dr. and what kind of personality this Dr. is. and etc. Then if I were you, let him leave. In fact, tell him to leave, and find what he wants in life. Say you are sorry that you feel this way about our marriage, but I feel we need sufficient distance between us to figure ourselves out. This distance will give us time to comtemplate our futures, our children, our finances, work, and more.

I wish I had gotten my husband out of the house when both the Harleys were counseling with us, and they told SNL to get out that night. But SNL refused, stating this is his house, and more selfish words. Told Jennifer that if he left he would never come back. Well, I wish he would of left, and not have to put our whole family in the presence of his still communicating with the other woman, and spendng money on the other woman.

Take this by the reins, and get it going now. This is the only way that he will get help.

My WH doesn't want help now. Feels he is fine the way he is. As many of you seen here and on divorcebusting, he is in deep need of help.

Do it now for your protection and protection of your mentality.

p777, your H is right about one thing. If he does himself in, it's definitely NOT your fault! If he said it and doesn't mean it, then why did he say it? It might be worthwhile to try a conversation again to get some dialogue going? When he says you wouldn't care if he did himself in... well, he's wrong, isn't he? My H does similar things. It's maddening. He would announce what "my" feelings are, and I used to waste my breath and brain cells disagreeing with him.

Patricia Evans talks about this in her latest book Controlling People. That and her other books have helped me tremendously in learning to accept my H the way he is. I know it's hard to muster up compassion when he's playing mind games. You can refuse to be bullied and still be compassionate towards him. My H also responds to confrontations by dreaming up the worst possible scenario and announcing it as "the solution" to our problems. Earlier in the marriage, he'd threaten divorce at the first hint of a disagreement. Finally, I told him the next time he announced divorce as our solution, it WOULD be the solution because I'D be the one who would make it happen. I told him I don't appreciate his hollow threats and I have no patience for them. He never made that threat again. The key to boundaries is keeping the focus on you. You can't demand anything of him, but you can sure let him know some consequences of his actions in advance. As for your shutting down to make the mind games stop, that's hurting you. If it continues, there will be little left of you. Be specific in letting him know what you cannot tolerate. The suicide threat is a good starting point. Let him know what you'll do if it happens again. If he's pulling a scare tactic, he'll probably not make another idle threat if he knows the men in white suits are gonna take him away next time. If he's serious, the men in white suits *should* take him away. Let a professional decide whether he's serious or not! That's my suggestion.

Paisley 777, Our you sure I'm not your husband? This sounds just like me and what I did to destroy my marriage. Its not over yet. She left on 9*28*01 and filed 6*25*02. Recently she moved our divorce case dismissal date from 10*24*02 to 11*26*02.
We are talking and she said yesterday she still has reservations and love for me in her heart.
I still have a lot of work to do on myself. It took losing her, drinking and going insane to realize I needed help. It all came down to my low self esteem and depression.
One day at work I was in my office early in the morning crying to no end asking God for help.
I picked up the phone and called an employee help line {medical, legal, financial counseling}. I spoke with a counselor and got an appointment set up to see one. At the same time I called the AA hotline and found a meeting to go to in my area. Been thru a lot and still am going to go thru more.
Even managed to end up on a psych ward for a couple of days. But I'll tell you what. If none of this would have happened between my wife and I, I would probably be dead right now.
Like I said I still have a lot of work to do on myself and going to meetings where there are people just like me, counseling,[ was on anti depressants but not any more} and this site I know now I have to love me before I can truly love another. God will take me there. All I have to do is ask.
I pray for you to get thru this and for your husband to finally see there is light where there was once darkness. Just remember, he has to make that choice. Ultimatums and threats to him will not work. Nitehawk