Hi everyone,

I had a good day up until about two hours ago....I mowed the back lawn, dyed my hair auburn, went to collect my son from school camp, and then we were all having a nice evening....then their dad called.

Yep, he told them he was bringing OW for Christmas but that was all he told them. Didn't mention that he was taking them away with her to play happy families, didn't mention that it was THE woman who he left us for (they had met her).

Anyway, son(9) was told first and he was very non-committal in his speech to his dad, but the minute he got off the phone, he came crying his eyes out to me. I asked him if he would like to tell his dad how he was feeling, and he did, so he got back on the phone and allowed his anger and sadness to be heard.

D (6 & 3/4) was told next, and she was also non-committal on the phone, but came to me and was very clingy, saying kiddy nasty things about HER, and stuff, then she went quiet, and I found she was crying. She and her brother have both already said they do not want to go with him at Christmas. Has this ever happened to any of you, and if so what did you do about it? I have full temporary custody right now, so I don't think he can FORCE them to go.

YD (5), bless her heart is too young to understand, but she was picking up our vibes...she knew something was wrong, but at her age the 'girlfriend' thing is no big deal. A blessing, really, to be so unaware.

So my mum and dad came around for support, as they had called me on the cell phone at the same time, and I was telling them about it, so they were actually a good distraction for the kids. However, S was still awake in bed at nearly 11pm and OD cried herself to sleep...quietly, which is really unusual for her. If she is going to cry, the whole world usually knows.

So I am frazzled and angry that this has had to happen to the kids, even though I know it had to happen sometime. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I thought he might send me a follow up email with his concerns about S, but no, I suppose he just thinks his son will get over it. Which he will, but I don't think he will feel the same about his dad ever again.

I will try to give them a good weekend, keep them busy and so on. Tomorrow the kids and I will all get into cleaning the car and the paddle pool etc in preparation for summer. Maybe take them out for dinner or something. Mum and Dad are having us over for a barbie on Sunday afternoon, and before that I will take the kids to a lake nearby, which they love. And I will be their shoulder if they need it, of course.

I am so drained and sick of this. I really wish he would be one of those dads that just faded out of their lives, I REALLY DO. Cos the longer this goes on, the more pain he brings.

Jacky

(((((Jacky)))))

These days, I'm all out of pearls of wisdom. Going through my own weary spell. But I know, sort of, how it feels.

Again, I'm all out of wise words - all I have left is hugs.

Thanks, Cinders,

I am the same....I did get your latest email, but did not have the energy to reply. But I appreciate it all the same.

I watched an enchanting version of the Cinderella story recently, an oldie called The Glass Slipper, with Leslie Caron. I thought it was sweet. Home alone at the time, or I think my girls would have liked it a lot.

THIS is the hard bit of being a separated/stb divorced parent. My kids are suffering, and so am I because they are so sad, and I have to pull myself up and be strong. So hardddddd! HE on the other hand, can make a call then get on with his life there, and not DEAL with any aftermath. Makes me mad.

I am TIRED. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

(((((((((((((NINA))))))))))))))

Don't be upset but I'm going to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here. Let me preface it by saying that you know that the children are always first and formost in my mind.

A lot of how this whole Christmas thing plays out will depend upon your behaviour rather the the children's or Superman or Supertramp's. The children are with you and they will react to how you are acting.

I do believe that you'll see over the next couple days that the children's acceptance and resilence will show through a lot quicker than yours unless you don't allow it. As you stated, this is a hurdle that is going to have to taken at some time, so why not now?

To me, this whole scenario boils down to how you decide to handle it. The children are resilent and they will deal with it a ton better if they don't see your anger, frustration, and disappointment. When this a works it's way through the wash, the children will make their own moral judgement. Mine have.

I'm not familiar with that movie. I'll have to find it. My favorite Cinderella movie is the Rogers and Hammerstein one with Leslie Ann Warren as Cinderella. Also has Ginger Rogers, Walter Pigeon, and other old-time American big name stars.

Maybe some chocolate would be good for the family?

Am praying for you guys down yonder. Would love to have you guys visit here...ATL is very nice. Lots for kids to do.

Anyhow, you do not have to force kids to do anything. That is their decision. Think stbxH is pushing far too hard. And so is ms. clickety clack.

Sounds like you and I have had much the same experience, except yours has been going on a few months more than mine. It certainly stinks doesn't it???Wait a while. They will break up a bit. The fantasy should be wearing off. Especially if the OM/OW have to wait for the divorce before remarriage. The long wait cools them off. Helps waft away some of that fog. That happened to ms. monkeyho. She waited too long for Austin. He couldn't give her the gold and the goods when SHE NEEDED IT. So like she told some of my mutual friends when they saw her back home at a large social gathering for people our age (monkey didn't know these people were my friends or she wouldn't have spoken with them). She said, "Yep, I just ended a long relationship (really a cheap affair w/my husband) and I am indeed out HUNTING AGAIN tonight". Funny, I never thought of a MONKEY AS A TOP PREDATOR BEFOREl...lmao. Or a pair of high heeled stillettos for that matter...I think you should adopt the attitude of the song from the seventies "These Boots Are Made for Walkin". And these will be high heeled clickety boots. "These boots are made for walkin and that's just what they'll do..One day on of these boots are gonna walk over you.." She can clickety clack all she wants. Your boots are gonna do the walkin. Remember that. That can be your theme song. Like on Alley McBeal where she picked a theme song. Have a good night down under. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi Nina2 - sorry you have to continue bearing your EX's selfishness and boorishness! I totally agree with NPIGA about not forcing your children to do something they don't wan to. Isn't there something in the Court Order that states regarding Visitation, "In the best interest of the children" and also, "The children's desires and wishes should colour visitation"??
Just a thought - I know it's certainly in my Court Order, but then again, you're in Australia and my Order is from Alaska, USofA...
We're praying for you AND your children, God bless you all.
Harold

Now, Bill, ya know I loves ya and generally applaud your words of wisdom but I'm gonna take exception here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, this whole scenario boils down to how you decide to handle it. The children are resilent and they will deal with it a ton better if they don't see your anger, frustration, and disappointment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It has become clear to me that the fog does not just go away when the marriage is over, the x gets together with OW/OM, whatever...especially where the kids are concerned. Many, many people think that because they are children, that they are too young, naive, whatever, to understand when their parents are jerks. WRONG!

My daughter cried tonight because her selfish, self-centered *father* (and I use the term loosely, I assure you) only sees her two days of the month. He works on weekends and his days off are Thurs/Fri but since school is in, she only goes on friday. So, you'd think he'd be all excited and over EARLY to pick her up, wouldn't you? I mean TWO days for God's sake. Instead, he calls her at 5:30 and says he's on his way. At 7:30, she calls to ask where he is. He's over at the house of a friend of his. DD is one smart cookie. She understands that this 'friend' is more important to him than she is. She is upset and has bruised feelings. She already knows that whenever he takes time off work, he spends it at the friend's place. Never calls daughter to see if he can see her. Even used all his vacation to go on a trip with...oh, you already know. So now, when dd sings the National Anthem next week at her school football game (a big deal, right?), jack*ss has no time to take off to be there. But she's a kid. She's 'resilient'.

I'm proud of her, though. She called him at 8:00 and told him if he didn't pick her up by 9 to just forget it. He was here at 8:30. My husband is so mad at the way x neglects and takes her for granted. LOL! Now I guess she knows what it feels like to be married. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Please, Bill I absolutely HATE the word 'resilient' when applied to children of divorce. HATE it because that was the first thing HE said....it is a word he used to justify his bowing out of their daily lives, and it sucks. Sorry for the vent, but there it is.

Yes, my attitude and mood are picked up very easily by the children. I am well aware that they will act up if I am showing depression. I also know that if I am okay with something, they will HIDE their own feelings. Case in point, my son didn't want to go to a sleepover but didn't know how to say no...it turned out we had other plans, and he said to me "That's good mum, I didn't want to go anyway." He was playing along to please the other kid, and he does the same thing with me. And then those internal feelings turn into nightmares and sleepwalking, because if he thinks it will hurt me, he tends not to talk about it. This is NOT ideal.

So last night as his heart was breaking we had a talk, in which he asked ME how I felt. And I said "Well, I am not happy about it." We talked some more and he was very down on his Dad. He had actually told his dad on the phone that he was DESPICABLE, (he has a good vocab for a nine year old). Also when his dad said that it would all be alright, he said "Yeah for YOU, not for US!"

So in our talk, I validated his feelings, because his father had tried to make LIGHT of them (trying to talk Fogese to an astute 9 yr old is a waste of time if you ask me). We talked about the fact that his dad and I are not yet divorced, which GREATLY concerns him. He felt that his dad was breaking the law somehow.

Then at one point he asked how his dad could change so suddenly...I asked what he meant, and he said well, the girlfriend. Deep breath here, and I told him that she has been around the whole time, and she was the woman the kids had met. He was disgusted, and immediately had a verbal attack on her. One of the interesting things was he said that she tried to 'bribe' them to like her that day, but he said he didn't take any of that.

Also, he then told me that that day someone had told them that she was married....I guess so they wouldn't think he was with his girlfriend, I dunno. I put him straight on that too.

Now before you all jump on me, I told him what he needed to know. He asked, and I told him. I have always been that way with my kids. But I did it in as unhurtful and unspiteful way as I could. I did NOT at any time attack either his dad or OW, but I DID tell him that I would not accept what his dad is doing because I think it is wrong. And that it was true that I didn't like her, but also true that I didn't like her BEFORE she was involved with their dad.

As for sending them off....no I have no intention of making any one of them go if they do not want to. As far as I know I can do this, since I am full custodian, and there is not a thing in writing about visitation, since he is overseas most of the time, except for something about 'mutually agreed visits'. And he would not have enough time to fight it in the two weeks he has deigned to spare his children.

Well, enough of the big vent. We have been busy all day, and the neighbour kids came visiting as well as one of my friends, which has been good for them. I know my kids, and I can see the sadness in their eyes, and today the older two have each taken time out to just lie down and be alone. I intend to have a family meeting about this in a few days to see how their thoughts are, but in the meantime they know they can come to me at any time. So I had son in bed all night with me, lol. We will get through this, but it hurts me so when I can't do anything to stop their pian.

Thanks for listening.

Love and light,

Jacky

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now before you all jump on me, I told him what he needed to know. He asked, and I told him. I have always been that way with my kids. But I did it in as unhurtful and unspiteful way as I could. I did NOT at any time attack either his dad or OW, but I DID tell him that I would not accept what his dad is doing because I think it is wrong. And that it was true that I didn't like her, but also true that I didn't like her BEFORE she was involved with their dad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No way am I gonna jump on you. OK, I don't have kids, but I am still young enough (I think) that I remember what it was like being a kid and adults treated you like you didn't have a clue. It was horrible because you were confused.

Jacky, I think if you son is old enough to ask these kind of questions, then the least he deserves, after all you've been through, is the truth. Why should another adult lie to him? Why shouldn't he know you don't agree with your H's behaviour? This is how he will learn 'right from wrong'.

I know I probably don't have much of a right here as I don't have kids, but this is my opinion. Kids are little humans beings and deserve the same respect as big human beings.

I said it before, I'll say it again. You are a great mum.

Nina,

You are absolutely right. If kids think you are ok with something, they will hide their feelings. I found out months later that one of my kids was afraid to express her anger at her father because she thought I "liked him too much."

Kids are NOT necessarily resilient. Some kids are, and some kids aren't.

The important thing is to always be completely honest with your kids. Never pretend to feel a way you do not feel. Kids need to be able to trust at least one person in their lives.

Nellie is right.

1. Kids are not resilient
2. There are long term effects you won't see in them unitl they become adults
3. They are not just "little humans" (fully endowed with adult intellect/reasoning/spirituallity)... they have minds and hearts and spirits that need significant guidance...
FROM THE SANE PARENT!

If there is to be any visitation...
...as the parent with 'full custody'...
...consider "supervised visitation"... (if allowed down under).

You have my prayers.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

<small>[ October 19, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: NSR ]</small>

Seahorse and Nellie,

I agree with you both. Some kids can handle things, others can't. I know that when I was a kid there was so much lying going on, I didn't know what to think. I will NOT lie to them, but when I have to give them the truth, I try to do it in a way that is appropriate to their ages and also in a way that will not lead to them taking sides between their father and I.

I am a trained teacher, and I KNOW how valuable the truth is to children, especially when they actually ask the HARD questions. They respect truth, no matter how HARD it is to hear, and can spot a lie at 100 paces. The answers to their questions ought to be framed for their cognitive abilities, and that is what I have done. When my youngest was blase about the OW, I just said "Oh, ok (D)!" cos that is what she can handle. AND what she expects.

The older two can see and understand more and so have seen the pain I went through and have realised that it is not all as simple as it seems. And their questions are more probing and the answers difficult.

As for children hiding feelings, some time ago I posted about my OD really freaking out on me about a day the kids had spent with stbx and OW.....over a year before. Oh, no, they do not forget, and can keep it to themselves for a long time sometimes. Can you imagine the PAIN my daughter went through before it all became too MUCH for her, and she exploded? She is SIX YEARS OLD!

Truth allows them to deal with it, lies, or evasions do not. And portraying myself to them as cool with the whole thing is a lie. NO, I do not rant and rave and unload on them....but I will NOT condone their dad's relationship with the woman who had at least a one third part in killing our marriage. (NOT that I verbalise it like THAT to them)

I am all for telling the truth, and not being seen as the enabler of their father's affair. To ME, this is SO important for when they are adults. When they actually KNOW the real truth, they would be questioning why I let them go away with their dad and OW 'happily'. It is important for the development of their value systems that SOMEONE has to have high morals here, and NOT be afraid to show this to their kids. Because otherwise we are giving the kids the wrong messages.

Love and light,

Jacky

Thanks Jim,

You and I were writing at the same time, but you agreed with my post before it was posted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> /

Love and light,

Jacky

You did well. If the kids ask the questions, they already know or suspect the answers and they want the truth. You as their mother know what to leave out and what to share.

By example you are teaching them how to handle life. You're facing it square on, not lying to yourself. The kids won't get through their lives without problems. Nobody except someone in a coma can do that. They are absorbing how you deal with their dad's treachery and they see how unimportant they are to him.

Forcing rose-colored glasses on them when they see 20-20 would be an insult to their intelligence. God Bless you, you're a good Mom.

<small>[ October 19, 2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

Jacky,

You were right to tell your kids the truth.

Yes, it hurts them, but they can heal emotionally faster based on truth than on lies..

Reinforce to them that they can share their feelings with you..even if they think you are going to be hurt by what they say..tell them that
you know they are not meaning to intentially hurt you..but to be honest about their own feelings..
and that is something they need to learn to do..

Being this way with them now, they will grow up valuing honesty in others..and also realize that the more their dad and OW lie to them..the more he will hurt his relationship with them..and they won't want to spend time with them...and when he blames you (and he will) you can tell be honest with him..that He did that himself..by lying to them..

My son is very depressed...has been all weekend. He hardly speaks, only when answered to, and if I ask him if he is ok, or does he want to talk about it, he says no. He will be seeing a school counsellor on Wednesday, and I hope to get some help for him then.

Girls are coping but much more snally and argumentative with me. So I guess they react differently. They are a bit younger, so that may be helping in some ways.

This is so hard. Once I told stbx a story how I stuck up for my brother against the school bully, told him to lay off my brother...I said "It seems that if someone hurts ME, I can't stick up for myself, but if it my family, look out!" That kinda fits here...yet again I am so angry that our kids have to be hurt because of their father's selfishness.

Oh well.

(((((((((((Nina))))))))))

Looks like I got blasted a little over the weekend. As you can see, when it comes to children everyone is an expert. Many people have strong views, but I also see people that have views that don&#8217;t line up with the reality of everyday life. I know this is a tough time and I just ask that you take your time making your decision because either way the consequences are going to have to be paid.

As you know, I totally agree with 100% honesty but some details left for an age appropriate time. Who decides when it&#8217;s age appropriate time, the parent. I also believe strongly in teaching my children through &#8220;Modeling Behavior&#8221;. I walk the walk behind the talk I talk. I don&#8217;t hide emotions or anything else from my children and we have an extremely open relationship.

As for children&#8217;s resiliency, sure there is some question there but you have a huge impact on it through your modeling behavior. Since I&#8217;ve never lived this long before, I can only relate my positions to my children in their environment. Sure we still have every day struggles but I take those struggles and use them as teaching tools.

Can you keep your children from ever being around alcohol? Can you keep your children from ever being around pornography? Can you keep your children from ever being around drugs? Can you keep your children from seeing immorality? I don&#8217;t believe so. But you can teach them what is right and hope they make wise choices. I believe there is a bible verse that goes something like &#8220;Teach a child in the way that he shall go and when he is old he shall not stray from that path&#8221;.

Again, whatever you decide is your decision and you are the one that has to deal with all the ramifications. I have and am living through similar circumstances and I do appreciate how tough all this is. My only bit of advise is that just like honesty, you also have to calculate reality into these decisions. As parents our job is to teach and protect our children, I do believe that some parents miss the opportunity to teach when they think they are protecting and a lot of the time it is themselves that they are protecting.

Jacky, I know that you will make the right decision for your set of circumstances. May the good Lord grant you peace, my darling.

Im glad your children were able to speak to their dad about their feelings about OW. Our 13 yr old could not talk to his dad. He would always get sick & throwup. He was keeping his feelings inside. It helps the healing to let them talk. few weeks ago we had to exchange cars with X, our son would not even look at dad or speak to him. He wants nothing to do with the woman his dad was having A. X made the mistake of telling me he was leaving home to be with MOW while standing behind our son. Everything X promised us he went back on in D. Our son can refuse to go with Dad I called police they told me they will come out if x calls but will not make our son go with him. The D paper are not enough it has to be court ordered by the Judge. X does not want to go back to court to get this, X is afraid what our son will tell the Judge. We dont talk about X at our home it upsets son. Our son watch his dad lie through the D, end up engaged or M to OW. Broke up 2 families and do things with her 3 kids that he didnt have the time to do with his own son. X tried to get son savings that he had since birth to pay for new car OW got before we were D. We will be going back to court in fl once we lived here 6 months thats in Jan 2003. Our son will have his day in court to talk to the Judge. Son is at the age where he can make a choice to see his dad or not. Ive not said one bad word about dad to our son. I knew when X & OW got engaged what would happen. I listened to what our son was saying about dad & OW. He hated her & would hate dad if he left home to be with her. Our son told his dad this before he left us in 5-01. Our son is doing better not living in the same town as X & OW. heard him laughing the other night it has been a long time since he has been happy. He was joking around with his older brother who is living with us. We will make it, it just takes time to heal.

m-17 yrs 9 mts, 12 days
d-5-02
h-43 w-48
c-13, 29, 8 gd

OW-M-10 yrs
D-7-02
c-3 under 10

Hi there!

first, you need to explain to them that life is full of weird twists, turns, and unexpected random events. . . . unexpected and random are part of human behavior that doesn't fit into equations/modeling, etc. . . like weather forecasting or stock market analysis or tower collapses . . . .

explaining reality is difficult . . . however, I stress, every day that i have my kids, not to be pleasing to others but to be polite, and when one talks, they talk about how they feel/think. . . . and when i ask questions, and a childgives me that "Whatever you want , Dad." answer, i tell them, "No, i asked you what you want, its your decision, not mine."

I also explain to the kids that I try to be fair, and what's good for the mom is good for the dad, and between the kids. . . .

however, you can also explain to them, that sometimes there are no answers for them at this point in time, maybe when they are older and you know more. . . . (of course at that time you will explain more)
its more acceptance of what you can't control or influence or change that you can teach. . . .

and i agree with lost husband.. . although some kids are resilient, others are not .. . . those that have control, or revenge issues, will have more problems that those that don't . . .

wiftty