I first posted this problem a few months ago in the infidelity section, and then realized I was in the wrong place. So, here it is again briefly:<BR>I am 26, my boyfriend is 30. We have been together for almost 2 years. We both have college degrees, and good, stable jobs. He tells me CONSTANTLY that I am the one he wants to marry. This is good, because I feel the same way.(by the way, I should add that we DO NOT live together, and will not until we get married)<BR>The problem is, he keeps pushing back the engagement process. Last Christmas, he swore to me that we would be engaged by the next holiday season. We have a vacation planned in November, and the whole year he has been going on and on about popping the question on this trip. However, as we got closer to the summer (around May) he started backing off, telling me that he wanted to wait until the spring to propose. As we started to make plans for our vacation, he started to push the engagement back. Now, he's telling me that he wants to wait until the spring. When he started to push it back on me, I got really hurt, telling him that if he didn't do it by the end of this year, then I was breaking up with him. <BR>Things were shakey for a while, then we reached some agreements. I agreed to lay off and not pressure him, if he promised "to show me that he's serious." I told him one way to do this was to go ring shopping, and we did a few weeks ago. Here's the problem:<BR>He still LIVES AT HOME. Some men don't want to marry because they enjoy being a bachelor, some men can't committ to one woman for the rest of their lives. My man doesn't seem to want to leave the nest. He is an only child, and he is very close with his parents. The more time that I spend with his family, the less confident that I feel about him popping the question. My question is: is it fair for him to tell me one thing, and not back it up with action? I feel like he is leading me on. Why is it so hard for men to propose? We have talked about marriage a million and one times, and we know that we want to be with each other. But why is this such a scary step for men? I am mentally and physically bracing myself to walk away from this relationship if he does not change the status of it within 6 months. Is this wrong, and is that putting too much pressure on him? One school of thought from a mutual friend is that he is telling me springtime to throw me off because he wants to suprise me BIGTIME. Is that possible? Would a guy tell a girl something like that to throw her off the trail, just so the engagement could be a suprise?<P>My general question (I would like to hear from those of you over 30, who have been married 5+ years): why is marriage so hard? I seem to hear alot of that, and I think that marriage can be wonderful. Before I met my current bf, I was engaged and living with another guy. The relationship did not work out for a number of reasons. And since then I have been living by myself. Sometimes I think that it is harder to be alone. And I don't want to get married just so I won't be alone anymore. I am surviving and I can do it forever if I have to. The thought of not being with my man is alot more frightening than being alone. I really do love this guy, but I feel like I am being strung along.<BR>Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

tigerlillie,<P>In response to your question, It's not that marriage is hard. It's that it is a lot of work. When you add things into the relationship like finances and the daily grind of having to share everything with someone, it complicates things. Both of you have to be willing to constantly work on things. Never be complacent. You think when you get married that you can do or say just about anything to your spouse, "Let it all hang out", so to speak. This is not true. We still have the same vulnerabilities and we still have to be responsible for our actions and their consequences. To some people this is just to much of a responsibility. Maybe he has had poor examples or his friends have had bad experiences.<BR>I think that continually putting it off and him living with his parents at this age are major warning signs for you.

TigerL--<BR>first of all marraige IS hard. Being in love and single --it is hard to imagine that it won't always be that way. I think what makes it hard for me is that I overlooked some th ings before marraige. Things that do mean alot when you are with someone for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. I never had read a relationship book before marraige. I wish I had, I may have been able to spot some danger signs. I think many men think that once you are married that all their sork is done. No more sweetness etc. Read the books by the Harleys. <BR>Now about him not making the engagement official. I'd ask him outright. Don't pressure him. Just ask why he thinks he's dragging his feet. Or don't ask, but don't bring it up. Either you will eventually decide that he is not the man for you, or perhaps he will surprise you with the proposal (which really in my opinion is the neatest way--we should not ASK to be proposed to) But do not count on him surprising you---you'll most likely be disappointed. Sorry I don't feel like I've made much sense. Perhaps I'll come back and clarify myself.

Cleopatra:<BR>I know that it is not going to be all fun and games when (and if he ever gets it together) we get married. But I think that if two people really want it, then the "work" part of the relationship comes naturally. We have definately had highs and lows in the two years that we've been together, but I really love him and he says that he really loves me and I know that once we get married one can't "let it all hang out". Remember, I did live with someone else for awhile befor being on my own, and I know how hard that was. In fact, a big part of the reason that I left him was because I couldn't live with him anymore. But, I think that you are right when the daily "grind" such as paying the rent,and the phone bills, going grocery shopping, etc. are just too much responsibility. And I think that is why people get married-so they can be with someon that they love, cherish and honor and can go through the daily grind of life together. Even we don't live together, he has his own key to my place (mistake, maybe?) and I love to come home from work and have him waiting there for me. And I think about him being there for the rest of my life, and I know it's what I want. I don't know where his poor examples came from-his parents are happily married and have been for 31 years. MY mother is on her third marriage. And as far as friends goes, he doesn't have any close ones at all. He's kind of a loner. But, I think that you are right in that he doesn't want any of the responsbilities of having an "adult" life. I mean, the day I turned 16, I was chomping at the bit to get my driver's license because I wanted my INDEPENDENCE. He didn't get his license til he was 18 because he didn't feel he was ready for the responsibilty. So, I guess that says a lot right there. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cleopatra:<BR><B>tigerlillie,<P>In response to your question, It's not that marriage is hard. It's that it is a lot of work. When you add things into the relationship like finances and the daily grind of having to share everything with someone, it complicates things. Both of you have to be willing to constantly work on things. Never be complacent. You think when you get married that you can do or say just about anything to your spouse, "Let it all hang out", so to speak. This is not true. We still have the same vulnerabilities and we still have to be responsible for our actions and their consequences. To some people this is just to much of a responsibility. Maybe he has had poor examples or his friends have had bad experiences.<BR>I think that continually putting it off and him living with his parents at this age are major warning signs for you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi istillwannatry:<BR>I know that things won't always be the way they are now. But I think that being single is much harder than being married. Remember, I did live with someone that I was engaged to, and we broke up. I think that you are right when you say that men think all their work is done after marriage, but I think that a lot of women have that attitude, also. Whats's that standard joke about the bride at her wedding reception turning to the maid of honor and saying "Good, now I can go off my diet." I firmly believe that marriage is a two-way street, and when you really love the person , then it becomes naturally. Right now, I am really angry at him because he keeps telling me that he is going to marry me, but yet :<BR>1)he still lives at home (and he's 30!!!)<BR>2) he REFUSES to tell his parents his intentions-in fact, he won't even tell them about the jewerly ("promise" ring) he bought me. He said he doesn't want his parents to think that he's flipped out and spending all his money on me. My response to that was "If you can't tell them about spending $300 on a ring that signifies a promise, then how are you going to explain $3,000 on a ring that mean forever? He didn't have anything to say to that. Ever time I ask him why he is dragging his feet, he's says" I think that if I just wait a little longer, then I won't be as afraid, or I'll be more ready..." or some lame excuse like that. The problem is, he is going to keep putting me off and off, and then suddenly five years have gone by and he's 35 and still living at home and we are still having this "high school" romance. He won't even spend the night at my apartment on the weekends!! Because he's afraid that it looks bad to his parents. I said if you can't spend one night away from home, how are you going to move out? He goes silent when I bring this up. <BR>I also feel like he has no motivation to make a move: He lives at home, has no responsibilites, but yet has his girlfriend tucked away in an apartment that he can come and go to as he pleases. Why should he change anything? All this would be different if he could just tell me that he doesn't have any desire to marry or leave home, but he refuses to admit that, saying he does want to marry me, and he is going to, if I just "give him a little time." And meanwhile, I am starting to go NUTS!!! <P>[

tigerlily--<BR>I just reread this thread---and pardon me for being cynical---<BR>but why WOULD you want to marry a man who cannot tell his parents about a $300 ring?? (if you get married, then will he hide things from his parents like other expenditures, buying a house, will they control where you live or what job he takes, what about adding kids into the picture--what type of grandparents will they be??)That's the thing about marraige, when you say I love him BUT...... If things like the ring, not staying at your apt. bother you now, they'll bother you SO much more after marraige. DON'T agree to marry this man unless he is able to stand up for himself. It's a blessing he hasn't proposed.<BR>And the fact that he is a loner---YIKES---that's usually bad sign too.<BR>Also---I think marraige is harder than living together. You were able to STOP living with your exboyfriend when it GOT hard. In marraige you will STILL live with him after is has been hard!<BR>Also---if he is not motivated to marry the woman he loves? what else does he need for motivation? Marraige shouldn't be about a convenience (motivation), but because of the feelings for each other. Motivation should be because YOU TWO WANT it. <BR>And I don't know about married life or single life being"harder". Life can be hard either way. I'm not sure it really has anything to do with marital status. A bad marraige makes for a hard life. But I'm sure a perfect marraige adds ease to life.

hi istillwannatry:<P>I don't think that you are being cynical, in fact I agree with you. Sometimes I think if he can't tell his parents about the small things now, how is it going to be in the future? He used to use the money excuse-"I'm afraid that I'll never make enought to support the both of us; I can't afford it, yada, yada , yada." I put an end to that pretty quickly. This is what I told him: First of all, I do not and never except you to be the only provider. I have a great career in advertising and I plan to keep it. Second, I have been paying my bills on my own for two years, making alot less than I am now , and I am doing just fine. So, I know that we will be okay money wise.By the way, I should add that neither of us want to have children. But now I think that the reason he's dragging his feet is because he's just too afraid to leave home. He once told me that he was afraid his parents would get angry and feel like he was deserting them if he left. I told him that his parents survived 30 years without him and they could last another 30. See, he does alot around the house for his parents, and I think that is a good sign. He paints the bathroom, mows the lawn, cooks them dinner, etc. I agree with you that if those little things bother me now, it's not going to change. And I do think that he needs to be man enough to inform his parents what is going on. Now, why do I want to spend the rest of my life with him? Because, despite all this, he is wonderful to me. He does treat me like a lady in everyway, and when we are together he makes me feel like I am the most special woman on earth. Do I have any doubts about him being a good husband? Not one. He's down to earth and responsible. Are there ever any guareentees in life? No. And I think that living together before marriage is wrong. I know-been there, done that. I think that it makes it too easy to live when times get rough. But I am not built that way. I don't run out on difficult situations. Part of the reason that I left my ex was because I met my current man, and there were a slew of problems with the ex that I just overlooked in the beginning. Had I to do over again, I would not have agreed to live with him before marriage. But that's a whole other thread/post. And as far as motivation goes, what I mean is that he can come to my place and "play house" and do adult things, but can go home to the safety of his parents at the end of the evening. So, he has the best of both worlds right now. Maybe he doesn't love me enough to want to change his situation-although just today he looked me in the eyes and told me I was the one and he wanted to marry me and be with me. And to be fair to him, he is not happy about being 30 and living at home...we've discussed that before, too. But he feels like if he moved out, then that would be money wasted; money that he could be saving for us to buy a house with.<BR>I know what I am going to do: right now I am going to lay off a bit, and try to enjoy this vacation to Disneyworld we have coming up. And if he doesn't make a move by the spring, then I am going to end it. If he's ready, he'll come after me and make a commitment to spend the rest of his life with me. And he lets me go, then I guess I have my answer. Right? Is that the way to do it?<P><BR>

Do not worry about getting this guy to marry you, unless you see big, big changes...and, frankly, at his age, you should have seen them long ago.<P>He is more afraid of what his parents might think than he is of hurting your feelings. He doesn't want to rock the boat, or cause any problems, and inaction seems to him the way to deal with all this.<P>These kind of folks make really poor spouses...they go thru life never honestly facing problems, avoiding conflicts and honest discussions...and all the work of maintaining the relationship falls on the other party.<P>Sorry to sound cynical, but I've seen to much of this...<P><BR>

kam:<BR>See, sometimes I have those same thoughts...I think that it will never happen...and when he leaves at 11:30pm on the weekend nights to go home because he's afraid to call home and say he's staying the night out , it really pisses me off. But then I think, maybe he has something going on inside that he doesn't want to share with me because he wants it to be a total surprise. And he did tell me recently that he has told his parents he's serious about me. I am going to put my foot down and give him a X-mas deadline of telling his parents. And if he doesn't, then I guess I have my answer and you're right: he's too afraid to rock the boat w/ his parents. Last night I told him that he's a big boy and he CAN make his own decisions. And sure, it's easy if all the parents approve, but even if they don't , it's still his decision, not theirs. I asked him if he thought his parents would disapprove, and he said, honestly no, they'd be happy. So, I guess I'll wait and see what happens. I survived one major breakup in my life, and I can survive another if it comes to that. Thanks<P><BR>

TL-<BR>I think the dialog you are having with him now will be very damaging in the long run. He doens't appreciate you telling him that he is a big boy. You are setting yourself up for a life long relationship. You need to start off on the right foot. You both need to read some marraige books before making a commitment

She has a good point. kam seemed to describe how I ended up dealing with conflict. (It hurts to admit that.) <BR>If there is ONE thing that keeps me upset about marriage, and some may think otherwise, we really are sent into it without an instruction manual, or a How-to-Guidebook if you will. After reading the articles for Emotional Needs, I had a big curtain go up in front of me in a sense, showing what I needed to know long ago. <BR>BTW, we didn't live together before marriage, either. The reason I don't believe in it has been stated...it requires no commitment, one can leave, for selfish reasons only, when the going gets rough instead of working on the relationship.<BR>Question for you...how do YOU get on with his parents? Do you have one on one talks with either of them? In hind sight, I think it was "cute" when she gave me attention through gifts or calls but showed interest in my family members.<P>rrunrr<BR><P>------------------<BR>Almost anything can be undone or forgiven.<P>Never take trust for granted.

ISW-<BR>Question. Why is this dialog damaging in the long run? Also, I have asked him several times to see a relationship therapist with me so we can "straighten this marriage problem out" and he refuses. I'm starting to get to the point where I don't care if he proposes or not, because I am heavily leaning on the "not" side of the proposal and am preparing myself for the inevitable breakup.<P>

rr-<BR>I am a little confused by your post. Who has a good point? What does BTW mean? <P>I don't want to live with my man before marriage. I am an avid Dr. Laura listner (althought sometimes she's a little too far right-winged for me) and I think that she makes some good points about certain issues. I think it is wrong to live together w/out a ring and a marriage certificate. I also think that a man (30 years old, mind you!!!) has not one, but TWO college degrees (he has a a Masters' degree) and a good, STABLE job, should be able to afford to live on his own. Hell, I have one college degree, and I've had three jobs in a past two years (I kept ting better offers, so I kept moving up) and I've manage to keep an apartment and bills paid. <P>Why does marriage need an instruction manual? The first step is that both people have to really want it, and I think that is a lot of mistakes that young people make (I'm only 25 myself) I think that women (especially my age) get caught up with the whole wedding itself (every girl wants their day to be a princess) and don't realize that it's only ONE day. See, I don't give a hoot about the whole wedding. We can go to city hall for all I care. But this is the man that I want to wake up and go to sleep with every night, and I think that at 30, after two years together, he either needs to go or get off the potty!!! What I am looking for is the life together. But so many girls get hung up on the big dress and party and they start to pressure their guys who then feel that they get trapped into doing something they don't want to really do. And then a whole slew of problems start.<P>I get along great with his parents, and grandparents. I go to all family functions, and everyone really likes me. He's told me so. I have not had any serious talks with them about my future with their son, I feel that's his place. However, I am getting the point very quicky where I am starting to get restless. <BR>What makes me angry is that he says over and over again how bad he wants to marry me, and will talk about our future together, but when I press for an engagement time-frame, he gets frightened. Why can't he either shut-up about it or put his money where his mouth is?<P>[<BR>

Tiger,<P>I agree with you that you should stay firm to your X-mas (or soon thereafter) deadline. A lot of relationships end after x-mas, and come to think of it one of my major ones did on the 26th, so maybe this is why!<P>Assuming that you have not "agreed" to the delay of your engagement until springtime, then do not tell him of your deadline again, as he already knows it. If you didagree to the springtime delay, then you may have to wait it out until then to actually leave.<P>Let him see your sweetest, most happy side on your vacation and through the holidays. Then, if there is no proposal, do the hard but necessary thing for yourself and just tell him that you love him and want to spend your life with him but that you don't want to be with someone who isn't 100% sure that you're the one that they want. Then, (nicely) say that you think it's best if you break up. You don't have to stop seeing him (if he asks you for real dates), but stop hanging out with him and pursuing him--no phone calls, no letters, that aren't initiated by him. No relationship discussions. Start going out with friends and accepting casual dates. Don't mention this to him, just be the busy, confident, independent woman that you are and see what happens.<P>If he was really going to propose, you will know soon enough. If he wasn't serious, or if he is just commitment-phobic, then you didn't waste any more time.<P>I have seen it go both ways--I have a male friend who dated a woman for 5 years, all the while saying that he would marry her but never proposing. She gave him a timeframe, and then she left him. He agonized while she got on with her life, started dating, went out, etc. (she was 39 at the time) but he never did propose. She eventually met another man to marry and he is still the same nice, fun, smart, sexy, single, commitment-phobic (now 40-year-old) guy.<P>Another friend of mine did this and her b.f. proposed shortly thereafter and they're happily married. This guy was 34 and living at home! So there is hope. <P>Good luck! <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TigerLilie:<BR><B>Here's the problem: He still LIVES AT HOME. Some men don't want to marry because they enjoy being a bachelor, some men can't committ to one woman for the rest of their lives. My man doesn't seem to want to leave the nest. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well....I can't give you an answer on the engagement thing, other than if you pressure him and he gives in, you will have to both live with that in your minds.<P>I would be more concerned about the prospect of getting married, him leaving Mom, and expecting you to take her place. <P>Maybe rather than pressuring him to give you a ring, you should pressure him to move out and get his OWN apartment (no roommates). Do some laundry, shopping, cleaning, pay some bills, etc.<P>You might get some insight on trips to his sloppy bachelor pad that may have you rethinking living with him.<P>Once he is on his own, the prospect of a wife might be much more attractive.<P>

Tigerlily...girly please terminate the relationshipp. I hate to come across as harsh but your dealing with a person who is flailing his arms showing you red flag after red flag. Or you can "put your s#it boots on a wade through it and learn the hard way" as my mother used to say . There are far to many good men out there for you to be wasting your time with this one. Betcha Dr Laura would tell you the same...call her up!!=D

Sorry for the late response.<BR>If not an instruction manual, then annual check-ups for tune ups. Too many go into it thinking that any conflict will work itself out without the efforts on either sides' part. More damaging in my situation has been where one decides that the other has the problem.<BR>[BTW is short for 'by the way'.]<P>e.<BR>

Mike, <BR>We've had those disscusions before. I've flat out told him that I will not be taking his mom's place...that I won't iron his shirts every night, nor stay home and have dinner waiting when he comes home. I am not going to quit my job and stay home. And neither of us really wants to have kids. Here's the thing about him living at home: he's the one that does a lot around the house for his parents-he cooks and cleans for them, mows the lawn, etc, etc. And when he comes to my place, he vaccums and does the dishes, etc. In fact, I'm more sloppy than he is!! But I think that before he can marry me (or anyone for that matter) he's needs the responsibilty of being on his own. And maybe you're right-the prospect of a wife might be more enticing after a year of being on his own!!<BR>I have told him that if he does not either move out or set a date with me that I was leaving him. Too much pressure?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B> Well....I can't give you an answer on the engagement thing, other than if you pressure him and he gives in, you will have to both live with that in your minds.<P>I would be more concerned about the prospect of getting married, him leaving Mom, and expecting you to take her place. <P>Maybe rather than pressuring him to give you a ring, you should pressure him to move out and get his OWN apartment (no roommates). Do some laundry, shopping, cleaning, pay some bills, etc.<P>You might get some insight on trips to his sloppy bachelor pad that may have you rethinking living with him.<P>Once he is on his own, the prospect of a wife might be much more attractive.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

But the thing is, conflicts never work themselves out!!! And that's not only in marriage, but in relationships, too. All relationshpis, whether it's dating, engagements or marriage, needs effort. But the thing is, it shouldn't be "work". The word "work" implies that it's a chore or task that is dreadful. It should be something that both people in a relationship desire, and you have to keep in constant communication with the other person. Also, I know that once you get married, then it's not about you anymore, but suddenly you have this other person to consider. I know that I probably won't be able to do alot of the things I do now-for example, I can't go drop a few hundred dollars at the mall without an explanation to him. But I am willing to curve some of that "single" stuff to be with him. I don't feel like I am losing my freedom as much as I am gaining something.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rrunrr:<BR><B>Sorry for the late response.<BR>If not an instruction manual, then annual check-ups for tune ups. Too many go into it thinking that any conflict will work itself out without the efforts on either sides' part. More damaging in my situation has been where one decides that the other has the problem.<BR>[BTW is short for 'by the way'.]<P>e.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Ruby, <BR>You don't sound harsh at all. I have been struggling with this in my mind for the past few months. I do see a lot of red flags:<BR>1. HE STILL LIVES AT HOME<BR>2. He refuses to let our respective parents meet each other<BR>3. HE STILL LIVES AT HOME<BR>4. He keeps pushing back this whole engagement thing<BR>And I have been trying to call Dr. Laura off and on for the past couple of weeks, but can't get through. However, if I leave him, then this is it for me. I don't want to ever get this seriously involved with anyone again. I'll grow old with cats or something.<BR>I feel like he's telling me one thing (maybe to keep me around?) and showing me another. I think that deep down he really wants to commit to me, but can't for whatever reasons. And there's a part of me that wants a "break" for a few weeks-to give him and me time to think. I've suggested that a few times and he insists that he doesn't need one.<BR>I know that I have been bashing him, but he really does have some wonderful qualities and he's a great boyfriend. And I want to think long and hard about terminating this relationship.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruby:<BR><B>Tigerlily...girly please terminate the relationshipp. I hate to come across as harsh but your dealing with a person who is flailing his arms showing you red flag after red flag. Or you can "put your s#it boots on a wade through it and learn the hard way" as my mother used to say . There are far to many good men out there for you to be wasting your time with this one. Betcha Dr Laura would tell you the same...call her up!!=D</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>