I've read most of Dr. Harley's books, plus about a million others, been to marriage encounters, watched videos, but I've never heard anyone address my problem. I met my husband 21 years ago when I was 18. I had never dated. I wasn't attracted to him at all, and he wasn't a nice man. We never dated, he just brought me to his house to watch him play cards with friends, then he'd be all over me. I thought I wasn't worth anyone liking me. Eventually I slept with him, became pregnant and we got married. I've never had those nice "feelings" for him. He choose to stay out at nights until our third child was born. For a few years he spent some time at home. Because of the lonliness , I had what was a semi-physical/emotional affair with my best friends husband (typical scenario). What I felt for him was the first and only time I've ever felt that way. (this was seven years ago) My husband has to work away from home because of debt so for the past 5 years we see him every couple of weeks. My question is...is it possible to love someone romantically when you never have? Dr. Harley always talks about rekindling the love you had and those wonderful romantic feelings, but I've never once had that for my husband. It's torture. I can't imagine growing old like this. Help.<P>------------------<BR>teknopop Propop

teknopop,<P>I don't know where to begin. . . I've posted here for a while on other topics. In a world of a blue-million or so people, everyone is bound now and then to run across someone whose experiences and/or feelings are similar.<P>I was touched by your account. I can't say that my own is quite the same, but there is such a similarity that I want to share a few things. "Help", you said? That's hard, but an understanding ear at least eases the spirit. I'll tell you a bit of my own.<P>I think it's possible to love someone romantically, even though you never have. Although I haven't managed to do this in my case. . . I do believe it's possible. But the down-side of it is that it would take a bit of something on the part of the other person. Without that. . I don't know.<P>I got married when I was 19. I turned 20 just a few months later. My wife is 10 months younger than me.<P>Neither of us ever dated, either. What happened was that we met in high school, and seemed able to hit it off at least conversationally. The fact is that she wasn't entirely the most lovely thing I'd ever seen but she seemed to be interested in me. Her mom was full of paranoia because of things she'd done in her own past - where she'd deliberately gotten pregnant so as to force her own parents blessing for her marriage. So. . .she wouldn't let my wife (then girlfriend) date.<P>I used to go over to her house on weekends, and we'd play badminton on the lawn, basketball. . . and things like that. "She" wasn't allowed to date. .. exactly, though I was welcome at her house once I'd gained the approval of her Mom.<P>Now my problem was this. . that though I was very popular with all the guys & and all the gals I knew back then, I always supposed it was just because I was "nice" to folk. It never occurred to me that a girl could conceivably be interested in me, romantically. In fact, I felt awfully awkward around girls, and so didn't even pursue that sort of thing. The "girlfriend" that seemed to have fallen into my lap, would as far as I could guess have to suffice. Besides, I had hung out with another gal on a Sr class trip, and when my "girlfriend" found out, she'd been livid. I thought "hmmm. . .wow! She must really want me". . but the fact of it was that she had her differences with the other to begin with, being jealous of a few other things, and just didn’t like being slighted.<P>Oddly, I did feel a bit bad about that, because during that time, I "almost" worked up the courage to ask the other girl for a date. . . because there'd been quite a spark glimmering all year long. She was a funny, witty, kinda-timid but really great person. . . and good-looking, too! But all that as I understood noble folk were to think at the time, was stuff that was not important. (Isn't that the craziest thing? And I had believed my elders on that account!)<P>Well. . . my story is getting longer than it needs to be. I married my wife because I didn’t much believe I'd ever do any better, anyway. I figured it was the thing to do. And I had cooked up some hokey notion it was God's will for me. I never dated anyone else.<P>She married me because she hated her Mom, wanted to get away from home, and she wanted to try and be one up on her older sister. She never dated anyone else - wasn't allowed to.<P>That was nearly 18 years ago.<BR>In '94 I really was hurting badly, and began a long, long, long process of trying to make my marriage a good thing. And I have come a long, long way!!! That's the positive, here.<P>The truth is that we have to accept what we have done. Marrying my wife was the worst mistake I have ever made in my life. (A lot of people are going to read this and slam me for saying something like that, but listen. . .) I tried and tried and tried to make it a good marriage, because that's what you are supposed to do. But until I got over my denial, and accepted it as a mistake I was stuck. . pure-D stuck! To say, "this is the woman who was right for me" is the craziest thing in the world. She's not even the sort of person I would hang out with, if I had a choice. But when I owned up to my mistake and said, "OK, this was a mistake, but we can make some good things come of it anyway". It made it bearable.<P>I think that no day will pass in all of my life when I don't regret marrying my wife, but we don't fight, don’t really argue (I think you have to talk, sometimes in order to do that), and we don’t really have a lot of the problems other people do have. Neither of us has ever had an affair, and we have a pretty decent home. Three excellent kids, and a pretty good life.<P>Sometimes I think that making a mistake, and then seeing that it was really going to take real work was what has made some good things happen for me/us. Yes, yes, I am envious of the guys who have kind, attractive, attentive wives and don’t even seem to appreciate them. But because this is my situation, if I am to make it work and work well at all I am going to have to be an extra-good husband. I've read nearly every book on the shelf about how to do that. . . (and there are traps, even in reading those books, because they lead to expectations, and then disappointment when it doesn't work - - I think the spouse has to read them, too)<P>But, as I said, knowing that makes me realize I HAVE to do a lot of good things. I find that sometimes just doing something good IN THE RIGHT SPIRIT, as a giver, and NOT to see if I can get any "return" actually does make me feel a bit better about my wife. She's not lacking for cards or flowers, or back-rubs, or b'fast in bed. I never forget a b'day or anniversary, I often call or leave notes, write poems, and on and on and on. All the romantic stuff in the world. . . I've come to find that I actually really just enjoy those things for the sake of them, in and of themselves. I think that it would be doubly grand if she really wanted those things, too. There's were a bit of daily regret each day creeps in. . . because I will always wonder what it might have been like if. . . <P>Well, that's the wrong way to do business. . to "wonder" too much, because it IS torment if you do that, and start thinking of all the things you've missed out on, all that you're missing, and all that you stand to miss in the future. Instead, just be a good wife. . . I mean, don’t' take any abuse, or anything like that. But be a good wife, and a giver - for me, it has paid a few dividends. My wife has at least acknowledged that I am "unique". . . but has indicated that she really doesn't need any attention from me.<P>If I lose my wife tomorrow, I will know in my heart I have been a good husband, and have been kind, and have kept my promises. And, honestly, I would be sad though I can't imagine I would ever miss her. And my kids have had a good example set for them, and I can talk to them about how they are to behave, and how they are to look for the right person when the time's right for them. . . and maybe help prevent them from making such a mistake. I can't do that nearly as effectively if I try to gallavant off with another woman. . . as much as I would love to know what that would be like.<P>It's permanent. If it was a mistake, then call it a mistake. . and then work nobly to make the best of it beyond that. Surely your husband and you have some good memories, and that amounts to something.<P>I am so sorry you are feeling hurt. I hope what I have written makes sense. I want to encourage you, but I don't want to do it with false encouragement, and I don't want to be another "book recommendation". Advice is often given with good intent, but suggestions for ways to "fix" things often lead to disappointment, and worse despair later.<P>I do think though, that it's possible to kindle a romantic love. . . even with someone you don’t particularly like. It's just rocky and infertile soil to work with to begin with. I've been cultivating mine intensely now for six years, and sometimes I feel pretty hopeful. Hasn’t happened yet. . . but when I think about giving up, I have to consider everything else I would give up, along with . . .<P>God bless you. . . I know some of what I have said may really sound un-encouraging, but the sum of it all, is meant to be good. Please have a good day.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by teknopop:<BR><B>I've read most of Dr. Harley's books, plus about a million others, been to marriage encounters, watched videos, but I've never heard anyone address my problem. I met my husband 21 years ago when I was 18. I had never dated. I wasn't attracted to him at all, and he wasn't a nice man. We never dated, he just brought me to his house to watch him play cards with friends, then he'd be all over me. I thought I wasn't worth anyone liking me. Eventually I slept with him, became pregnant and we got married. I've never had those nice "feelings" for him. He choose to stay out at nights until our third child was born. For a few years he spent some time at home. Because of the lonliness , I had what was a semi-physical/emotional affair with my best friends husband (typical scenario). What I felt for him was the first and only time I've ever felt that way. (this was seven years ago) My husband has to work away from home because of debt so for the past 5 years we see him every couple of weeks. My question is...is it possible to love someone romantically when you never have? Dr. Harley always talks about rekindling the love you had and those wonderful romantic feelings, but I've never once had that for my husband. It's torture. I can't imagine growing old like this. Help.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ilmf; <P>Thank you so much for your reply. I don't think I was really looking for an answer to my problem, just someone who understands...who's gone/going through the same thing.I felt like I was the only one who married the way I did. Even though your account isn't exactly the same, the important points are...not being attracted to spouse. I've tried to accept my mistake from the past and go on, but it's so hard, especially when you know there's a part of you buried deep inside that maybe you can never express. My husband has made alot of changes in the past year. He's learned to be gentle with me. We don't have fun, and conversation is mostly about the weather, work, or me breaking down every three weeks crying because I'm so lonely. We don't have any common interests yet, so that makes it hard. He's a real sports oriented guy, competitive, and good at anything he tries. I love gardening, museums, long distance biking. We never do anything that we both enjoy. We go on a "date" maybe once or twice a year. Usually to a restaurant, but we don't know what to talk about. It's very frustrating. Maybe if we could connect on these points I'd be attracted to him??? Other women have been attracted to him, but I have never been. I think it's because he was so unkind to me from the beginning until a couple of years ago. At least we stopped arguing for the most part (at least for the last few months!) Anyway, I just want to tell you I deeply appreciate your reply, to know that someone really does understand, and is doing the right thing for his family and in God's eyes, even though it's really hard. I know I haven't really tried to be nice no matter what. Well I was nice at the beginning, but for the last few years I haven't made much of an effort. Sometimes we just need to know that someone cares, even if it is a stranger!Thanks again, and God bless.<BR><P>------------------<BR>teknopop Propop

I should thank you too.<P>It's encouraging to know one's "not alone" isn't it.<P>Similar, but not the same. . . similar enough to understand. Some of your replied account sounded like a little more of my own.<P>Anyway, I wrote so much more than I had meant to yesterday that I think I'll just acknowledge your reply and leave it at that.<P>If I was able to be any encouragement at all, then I am glad of it.<P>I appreciate what you are doing. It's more encouraging to me, to see someone else "trying" than to see others giving up.<P>I do so hope that it pays off for you. I think it will, a little at a time. . .maybe only in small ways.<P>Smile. . and on a day maybe when you don't particularly feel like it, smile anyway - and then maybe someone will smile back, and you'll feel like it afterward!<P>God bless, again!

I read your original post yesterday, and it stuck with me. Not because we started out the same -- I was in love with my husband when we married -- but because we are now in similar circumstances.<P>My husband was not a nice man, either, when we married. He was intensely selfish, insisted on his own way in everything, told me that my needs were stupid and he wasn't going to do what I asked. His assistance in raising our children was almost purely financial.<P>My husband has recently changed his attitude, and wants to repair the damage his selfishness caused. His change of heart was prompted by the realization that, since I stayed all these years for the sake of the children, and the children are now grown (the youngest turned 21 this summer), there is nothing holding me back from leaving. The threat of leaving is the only thing that ever moved him -- I used it only once, when I really was beyond my tolerance and wouldn't have hesitated to follow through. <BR>My problem is convincing myself that he won't change back when/if he's convinced I won't leave.<P>I'm curious what changed your husband's attitude. If he's really serious about wooing your love, and if you're willing to try, then the MB principles give you the best chance of any I've seen. Is he familiar with them? Would he be willing to read His Needs/Her Needs or at least the summary presented on this site?<P>Based on your posts, it seemed to me that your best chance at a shared interest was biking (assuming you mean bicycle, not motorcycle). He's athletic, you like biking? There's a recreational activities questionnaire here that might give you more ideas.<P>You seem to have a lot of resentment stored up. That's MY biggest hurdle to deal with, too. If I thought his transformation was real, it would be easier to let go of the emotional baggage. Honestly, I don't think it makes a lot of difference at this point whether you ever had romantic feelings for him. The feelings I had got trampled to death years ago. What you and I have to decide is whether to take the risk and do the work that would allow those feelings a chance to sprout.<P>I'm not sure my response is as helpful to you as to me. Thanks for posting -- you've really helped me clarify some things in my own mind.<P>

Well, if just knowing you aren't alone is encouraging, then I will add some words here also, and maybe it will encourage someone. <P>I have struggled with not having "in-love" feelings for my husband for most of my 18 year marriage. I would say I did have those feelings at one time, when we first knew each other, but they had already died by the time I married him. I can even remember at the point it happened, but I didn't understand enough then to really realize why. I married because we happened to be "together" when the time seemed right (I now know the time is right when the "right" person comes along), I was more concerned about meeting others' expectations than my own, and because I didn't know how to verbalize all my doubts (didn't understand them). I did tell my husband before we married, but our poor communication skills couldn't get us past that to really address the issue. So, I pushed it all down and thought I'd "deal with it later". I realize now how foolish that all was.<P>Yet, was it a mistake? That is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. Also, finally admitting all this (which I kept inside for years, thinking a wife shouldn't feel this way) is a big relief and does help one to move on to find a way to develop a good marriage and not remain "stuck". We did not have a horrible marriage - just one that was often a struggle and very empty (mostly for me). Our most enjoyable area is recreation and in that way we can be good friends. We don't really have a problem finding things to do together. The hard part for me is that many other things I value, such as a willingness to work hard, apply oneself to the best of one's abilities, desire to grow, ambition and following your passions...are not things my husband values (they are ideals, but not values - which means they aren't important enough to put into practice). I am a romantic at heart and love planning "romantic" times together, love the "idea" of a close, intimate relationship...and again these are things that aren't very important to my husband. There are a lot of other factors that have made the relationship feel like huge barriers are between us, and from reading old journals and letters from before we married I see I struggled with trying to connect with him from the beginning.<P>Anyway, does any of that matter? Because of my Christian belief (and by that I mean my belief in a God for Whom nothing is impossible, Who loves me and KNOWS all my needs and wants my best), I don't believe divorce is an option. Thinking back I realize God could have intervened at any time before I married to prevent it. I did seek out some help, but didn't find anything to really guide me. I also realize that since my marriage God could have brought changes, but so far we are still together. That helps me to trust that this is a part of God's plan for me and He will do good things in my life, if I don't continually resist Him and struggle against my circumstances. So, slowly, I am resting in His hands, being totally honest to God (and my husband) about my feelings, finding peace in doing what is right before God for my family (especially my children) and trusting that God will give me what I need and satisfy me - in His way. <P>That means, I don't sit around waiting for something great to happen. I have to work at my relationship, such as reading on the forum and other books to educate myself, take responsibility for my part in the barriers we may have, possibly seek counseling...But the surrender is more in my attitude and changing my perspective from thinking it was the biggest mistake of my life, to having hope in a God who can do exceeding abundantly beyond all I can imagine when I follow His ways. <P>I hope this isn't offensive to others who may not be motivated for the same reasons as I. I am just sharing my own story. There are still many days of discouragement, resentment, despair and anger. It is hard and there is a lot of hard work ahead. But I am focusing now on the fact that the hard work will make me a better person in the long run.<P>Also my husband is finally willing to start working on things also and trying to address some of these issues. He is looking at his own depression, insecurities, reasons for withdrawing emotionally... It is slow going because he isn't a real self-motivator, and I don't want to get up expectations and then get disappointed, but perhaps it is a beginning. <P>Knowing what I know now I would have looked at my doubts and hesitations directly, but I am on the "other side" of marriage and so have a different set of challenges to deal with and face. <P>Any other ideas/suggestions would be welcome. I admire all of you who are trying to do what is right. Let's keep encouraging each other. There are rewards and blessings for going this way that we can't see right now.

SifedLikeWheat,<P>That was a very eloquently rended version of some of the things I was trying to say. I'd say you are a far sight nearer perfecting the ideals that I am trying to apply.<P>If you meant to be an encourager here...<P>You were, you did.<P>For me, that was worth a ton.

ilmf,<P>Thank you for your kind words. Sometimes my words sound much stronger than I feel, but I'm glad I could encourage you. I'm not sure I'm very far along in all this. I have so many questions I am looking at, but I see that as a good thing - willing to address these issues head on and not feel like I should push them down and "not feel this way". <P>One thing I have noticed: when I keep my eyes on God, I am stronger and more unwavering, less confused. When I take my eyes off Him, I begin to doubt and feel afraid. Much like Peter who tried to walk on the water towards Jesus - when he kept his eyes on the Lord, he could walk on the water, but as soon as he took his eyes off Jesus and began to look at the waves all around him, he became frightened and started sinking. When I start thinking, "this will never work, I'll always be unhappy..." I start sinking. But when I hold on to God's promises for me, and keep me eyes on Him and what HE can do, I have hope and am encouraged.<P>It is nice to know we can tell God anything and He understands. He made us and knows our needs even better than we do. None of this stuff (ENs, Marriagebuilders...) is new or foreign to Him. <P>Sharing honestly with each other is comforting also, as we all are doing.

smidgen; It's been a few days since I last looked in here. You've written to me with my husbands name teknopop (I was staying with him for a few days. He works 550 km away from home) Anyway I'm Daisy39. I was kind of afraid to tell anyone my problem, as most people just tell you to accept your life the way it is, and make the best of it. There is some truth in that, but it's kind of cold hearted. You did detect alot of bitterness in me. It's been hard waiting 21 years for someone to be nice to you. My husband did begin this three years ago when he realized he couldn't "make" me love him. We still argued alot though. He also was afraid he'd loose me, so that's motivated him alot, although he's never "had" me emotionally. I think he saw that his constant anger and controlling attitude certainly weren't doing the trick. He has read His Needs Her Needs, and various other books by Dr. Harley and other people. It's just taken him a long time to want to try to win my love; he used to say I had to win his love too, when I couldn't have cared less. I'm not sure why he said that though, when he's claimed to love me all along. We only see each other every 2 weeks,sometimes 3 weeks so it makes it especially hard to try to connect with anything. We could bike together if he lived at home, and if he realized I'm not as strong and not try to give me pointers with every sport I try. It's no fun playing with someone if you loose all the time! He'd really like to get a job closer to home. Please pray for this to happen. I have felt tender towards him once in a while in the past couple of years, so that gives me hope. If he were home maybe things would work out. Our four children really need him too. They've mostly grown up without a dad, and the youngest is 12, so that really hurts me alot. I still can't say I believe God put me in this situation...I put myself here. I do hope that good will come out of it in the end. I don't know, I'm pretty empty at this point. I wish I could encourage someone, but hey, this is where I'm at! Take care. <P>------------------<BR>

Daisy39,<P>I just wanted to comment on your words, "I still can't believe God put me in this situation, ...I put myself here".<P>I'm not sure I would say either that God put you (or me) in our situations. I made a choice, as you did. Yet, I do know He could have prevented it, but He didn't. And if He didn't prevent it, it was because He knew He could bring good out of it for you, and glory to Himself. I truly believe this. The good He can bring is in shaping you to be more like Him. We may not like His "scultping tools", but He is a Master Designer and can do it perfectly in our life if we don't constantly resist. <P>This is how I understand the concept of free will/God's sovereignty. You had free will in choices you make, God can intervene and prevent them. Sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't. If He doesn't, He can and will use it for our good and His glory (if we don't constantly try to resist Him). <P>Don't have much time to write more. I am sorry for your discouragement and emptiness. I know that feeling well and have been there often, including lately. But I hope these words can give you a little different way of looking at your situation. It is hard, I know.

Daisy,<P>I started to reply the other night, but got interrupted. I don't have much in the way of useful advice, only sympathy. Your husband sounds so much like mine it's uncanny! He can be really sweet when he wants to be, but his nature is to be critical and demanding.<P>I mentioned before that I did most of the child-rearing myself. Our kids are 21 and 23, and I think they turned out pretty well. My husband has regrets now that he wasn't more involved with them (and me) over the years.<P>At some point in the process (I think 10-12 years ago), I resigned myself to the reality that my husband just wasn't ever going to be the husband I wanted him to be. He wasn't going to be attentive, affectionate, etc. He provided consistent financial support, and that was about all I could count on from him. I committed myself to raising my (our) children and being the best mother I could be. The 3 of us formed the core family unit, and my husband joined us when he felt like it.<P>I don't know what your situation is, but I decided to stay for the sake of my children. My husband was not abusive, just negligent. He came and went as he pleased, and he wasn't there even if he WAS there, if you know what I mean. Basically, he was easy to ignore most of the time, and I was free to do what I thought best. In some respects I think this may have made the child-rearing easier -- there wasn't much conflict over differing standards.<P>Would I have preferred my husband to have been more active in the kids' lives? Sure. But I don't think they were irreparably harmed by the way they grew up. I think they would have suffered more if I had given up and walked away from my commitments.<P>By the way, reading Dr. H's books was a real eye-opener for my husband. The idea that a man would actually consider a woman's needs important seems to have been news to him. He still doesn't have a clue how to go about it, and I get the sense that your husband is probably just as clueless as mine. I'm wondering if counselling would help (from a man, of course).<P>I have to go, I'm working today. My thoughts are with you.<P>

Hello to all...I wanted to post a dew thoguhts of my own.<P>FIrst, my story:<P>I met my husband when I was 17, married him when I was 21, but not before we had two children. I felt trapped and lost, since the wonderful man I dated turned into a selfish, introverted taker. I kept giving, and giving, until I had nothing left inside to give. I was 22, and completely empty inside. I am now 24, and although still quite young, I have learned so much from these MB posts, that I feel wise beyond my years in many ways now. <P>Living in a loveless marriage is a choice that one or both of the partners makes in a relationship not to love. Although having a partner who does not need love may be possible, I feel that most people see this as a necessity of life. When YOU choose to withdraw from the marriage as well, I hear a lot of people blame their spouse on their uncaring ways, as if to validate their reason for falling out of love. THere is one problem with this: love is supposed to be unconditional! Why can't we as a society learn to love our spouses regardless of the way they love us? Surely with time and patience, love will prevail? <BR>I am guilty of this crime, as well. I went around for two years, feeling sorry for myself, hating my hsband and wishing I would die. I felt like I had no way out, life was merely an existence for me that I only experienced with slight interest.<P>What changed my outlook? Admittedly, I read a lot of the posts on here, where spouses were in relationships for 10 years before they "woke up and smelled the coffee": they no longer had love for their spouse. <BR>I realized that I had to make a choice: I could divorce my H, move on and not try, or stick it out, endure his dreadful behaviors and work on it. I do feel that in some cases divorce is the only option, when the marriage has irreversible repair, but who judges this measure of pain? You? Your husband? <P>The important lesson I have learned from myself and this site is to love you. Don't loathe yourself, or think negatively about your spouse or yourself. Negativity will not encourage movement. (Think integers with me for a second!) But, with positive thinking, we can carry our soul and spirit up to a higher level. Our spouse may not ever reach us , but, that is where the gentle talks, loving gestures, and education by example comes into play. No, you may never have "in love" feelings for your spouses, especially if you are stuck in the swirl of despairing thoughts. But, in the end of things, when you are 70. and looking back on life, how will you say you have lived? God does not want us to be unhappy, and he didn't create us to be a mere existence and nothing more than that.<BR>To those who are barely living and searching for solace in this board, please take my advicw, and breath deeply the air around you every day. Don't take those moments you have for granted, and stop using your spouse as an excuse as to why you haven't lived, dreamed, or loved. Find life in children at a schoolyard, dream your own dreams or with others, and ultimately, love yourself, and eminate that love to everyone around you. I no longer am tied to the chains of negativity, although it may just be for a moment in time, ( I know life may throw me a curve) I am going to cherish this moment. <P>WIll you?<BR>Or will you let another minute, another day, another month, another ten years go by, loveless, empty, sad?<P>Not me!<P>------------------<BR>"Rhythm Of The Day"<BR>Take the time to thoughtfully see<BR>Discovering all love's mysteries<BR>Sadly, we miss moments too many times<BR>Discovering yesterday<BR>Was lost in <BR>The rhyme

Hi all, <P>Carina, I am in your footsteps again today...<P>I see somthing in common with all of these posts - you don't like your spouses. When you look at them, there is no admiration. <P>When my W and I were filling out an EN questionaire, she struggled with some of the EN's. For example, financial support. If I died tomorrow, even with no insurance, she would not suffer much financialy so it isn't a real need. Yet, if I were to quit work and laze around the house, it would hurt her very much. Similar feelings were expressed about family commitment (kids are grown) and domestic support. The real crunch came when she tried to address admiration. She questioned which was more important to her, admiring me or feeling admired. She decided that if she didn't admire me, she could never feel love for me. They wee the same. She may care for me, need me and continue to live with me - but she wouldn't "love" me. <P>I believe that if you can't find characteristics in your spouse that you admire, then your trapped in a loveless marriage. If you look hard and start to appreciate what ever qualities he/she does have, you can have love too. <P>Carina hit a very important point too. If you don't love yourself, you will never love anyone else. i see this so much on thses boards. People who have fallen out of love with their spouses when the truth is they simply don't admire who they have become. <P>From paul Simons Slip Slidin' Away..<P>I knew a woman, became a wife<BR>These are the very words she used to describe her life<BR>On a good day, ain't got no time.<BR>On a bad day i lay around and think about the things I might have done. <P>

Carina,<P>There was a thread a while back discussing whether love was conditional or unconditional. My take on the subject is that Love the COMMITMENT is voluntary and unconditional, while Love the FEELING is an emotional response to the actions of another person and, therefore, involuntary. It would be easier if we didn't use the same word for both meanings.<P>I have stayed in this marriage for 26 years in spite of my feelings, because of commitment. This is the "I love you, but I'm not 'in love' with you" scenario. In my case, it would be more correct to say, "I love my children, but I'm not so sure anymore about my husband. I'm certainly not 'in love' with him."<P>Happy_Hus,<P>You're right, I don't like my husband very much. That goes along with the MB principles, doesn't it? When somebody meets your important ENs, your love grows. When somebody refuses to meet those needs and tells you it's stupid to have them, you don't like him very much.<P>It was ok with him that I was unhappy, right up until he realized I was unhappy enough to move out. Now, suddenly, he's motivated to make things better. Thanks, but I'm not convinced.<P>I don't know how all of this is going to play out. I have job interviews in another state next weekend. He's staying home. If I take one of these positions, he'll stay back and do the fix up/clean up/sell the house thing. I figure it'll take at least 6 months, probably a year, assuming he stays focused on the task (a major assumption). That's up to him. <P>If he joins me, it will be on different terms than we've lived by all these years. I'm not going back to that.<P>

Smidgen; I totally agree with your last post. I'm in this marriage because of a voluntary commitment (mostly for the children), and because God would have couples stay married if they can. But, love with feeling, which God intended, is purely a response to how you're treated. I also felt I was more free to raise the children how I wanted because he was never home, but I haven't gotten over the children crying because dad wasn't there with them. They love him alot. They turned out pretty good, but a home needs mom and dad. It's just been such a huge undertaking. I've called myself a single parent with high class welfare! I don't have a clue how women do it all alone...earn a living plus raise their children by themselves. I certainly feel for them. Take care. siftedlikewheat; Your words are encouring. I need constant reminders that God really is in control. I often wondered why he didn't send me someone who would have been kind to me from the beginning...liked being with me etc. I can vaguely see that He didn't intervene because of what He saw in the future in my (and my husband's life). My husband has changed alot. It's just the fact that he's never home, and we don't have enjoyable times together that hasn't changed yet. Please put him (teknopop) on your prayer list for a job close to home. We really need him here. Thanks again for reminding me Who's in control. <P>------------------<BR>

I'd like to post on here as well. I am encouraged by reading all of your stories and how you all are trying very hard to do the spiritually and morally right thing to do. It's tough to read where some of you are and how long you have been there. I'm coming at this from a little different angle and thought that perhaps some of you my be able to offer some help from the other perspective. My wife and I have been married for 18 years. We have 2 children, our daughter is 15 and our son is 13. Our son is mildly mentally handicapped but mostly he is a happy boy who loves to play Nintendo and watch Disney movies. I love my wife with all of my heart and want to be able to bring her happiness. In mid August she told me that she didn't love me and didn't think that she ever had. Since then I have found out that she had been in an affair for the last year and a half. She left home to stay with her sister and sort out her feelings on Sept. 8th.<BR> Throughout our marriage she has never been able to talk to me about her true feelings. Because of this it has been a shock to me that she was feeling this way. I have felt her slipping away from me emotionally but could not figure out what to do. I would ask her how she was doing or feeling and she would have all kinds of excuses from PMS, which she has battled with for years, to problems at work. Even now she says very little to me and does not talk about our relationship at all. She claims that the affair is over and that she knew that it was going nowhere. At least that is what she told our daughter. She has written me 2 short letters to try to explain her self. From those and what she had told our daughter as well as her sister I have a limited knowledge of what she is really feeling. <BR> She tells me that she thinks that she married me to get out of the house. Her father was verbally abusive to her mother and her sisters when they were young. I didn't witness any of that behavior while we were dating though or since then. She told me that she married a father figure and wanted me to make all of the decisions. We are only 3-1/2 years apart in age. I have always asked her opinion in everything that we have done and she has always agreed. I thought that it was because she was in agreement. Now she says that she didn't want to make me angry or upset. I have never raised my voice in anger to her, or been physically abusive or trivialized her position on anything. This has made it extremely difficult for me to understand why she has jumped to what I see as the 'State Of Withdrawal' without having any arguments or fights or even disagreements.<BR> My problem now is to try to get her to see that we can rebuild our marriage and build love in our relationship even though she does not feel it right now. 5-1/2 years ago she had an affair as well but eventually after a few months of counseling she told me that she was very confused then and that she figured out that she really loved me and wanted to stay with me. From what I understand through others she felt guilted in to staying with me then. I think that she has let that guilt eat away at her own emotions. She never asked me to forgive her then and I don't think that she really forgave herself. I don't know if anyone here has been through some of this or not. She says that she has tried everything she could since her first affair but she only tried on her own and did not include me.<BR> Another problem that we have had since the beginning of our marriage is that she has always had a hard time with any close intimacy. She could never relax during lovemaking. While she was growing up her mother taught her that sex was dirty and painful and that it's something that a man does to you. I think that this has imprinted in her subconscious more than she would admit. The only way she has wanted sex over the last couple years has been hard & fast and no closeness. It got so that I would turn her down because I wanted the intimacy with it. She has gotten to the point that she didn't want to be near me and would always equate any closeness that I would attempt to be a sexual advance on my part. <BR> She moved in to an apartment on Saturday only about a mile and a half away so that she could see the kids more. My daughter is not pleased with her Mom. My son doesn't understand what is going on at all. I have read most of Dr. Harley's information and Q & A's on the website. I read surviving an affair and am reading His Needs Her Needs. I also attended his Seminar a few weeks ago and am sold on his methods. I have written my wife letters trying to analyze what we have done wrong and accepting responsibility for everything that I can think of. I'm trying hard not to love bust at all and have invited her to go to a movie or play tennis or go out to dinner or anything that she would like to do. We have taken the kids to two movies together but that's it.<BR> I think that the only thing that has gotten me through this so far is one heck of a lot of prayer as well as reading a lot of the posts here. It seems that when I feel down I can read some here and find words that are uplifting. I thank you all for your words of wisdom from your own journeys. I think that many times the words help many more than they were originally directed to. If anyone has any suggestions on how to reach past a seemingly insurmountable wall of negative emotions to encourage my wife to give our marriage another try I would be very grateful. Even through all of this I love my wife deeply and I feel that God brought us together for a reason. I know that a divorce can only prolong and most likely worsen the pain for us both as well as our kids. I don't see it as an option for me but she might not agree with that.<BR> Any thoughts or suggestions? Please help!

Hi,<BR>I'm new to this forum, but I really need some outside input. I'm 28 years old and I've been married to my husband for almost four years. We lived together for a little over a year prior to our wedding and were together as a couple a year prior to that.<P>My problem is this: I know that I love my husband, but I don't know if I'm "in love" with him. I don't have those "gushy" feelings you hear so much about, and right now, I can't remember ever having them. I'm afraid that I'm married to someone I'm not in love with which has always been one of my greatest fears.<P>On the plus side, my husband and I are best friends. I want to spend all my time with him. I never get tired of being around him. He makes me laugh and is the primary source of joy in my life. I tell him everything (except my recent struggle). I want him by my side when we get around to buying a house, and I want him to be the father of my children. I believe I can lose everyone in my life and as long as I have him, I'll be okay.<P>I will say, too, that I love to cuddle with him and there are times when I feel a swelling of love for him and just have to throw my arms around him. I just don't feel it all the time.<P>I can honestly say I adore my husband, but do I love him? Am I "in love" with him? The absence of feelings is really scaring me. Are my husband and I just friends?<P>I should mention that I have been having these fears since Thanksgiving. I had this problem once before around our first anniversary and after going to counseling, I was diagnosed with depression and put on anti-depressent medication. After awhile, the fears of not loving him went away, but I never felt "in love" feelings for him. I just felt that I loved him. I think that I'm depressed again, and it may be the cause but I'm not sure.<P>Another contributing factor to this is my parents. My mom married my father without loving him. They were married for 30 miserable years before divorcing a couple of years ago. I have always known this since she couldn't stand to be in the same room with him or talk to him or spend time with him. The other day she said she felt I may have made the same mistake after I shared my fears with her. She spent my childhood as an alcoholic because of her misery. Part of me thinks my fears about loving my husband stem from this, but I'm so confused right now that I don't know anything for sure.<P>I'm sorry that this is so long, but I already feel a bit better for having written it. <P>Please, those of you with experience in this area, please offer some advice. Am I "in love" with him or not?<P>Thanks.

Feeling scared - I'd say you love your husband. The "gushy" feeling of being "in love" is infatuation and is short lived and transitory. The warm positive feelings you expressed about your husband sound more like real love to me and those are the things that will help you build a strong lasting marriage together. I never had a feeling of infatuation with my husband. I felt things like respect and admiration and felt that was sufficient to build a marriage on. And it may be. But I believe we would have a better chance of getting through the rough times if we had that feeling of romantic love to dredge up at times. Lots of times people will advise to do things to rekindle that spark. Hard to do when there never was a spark.