This Friday, I feel like I had a bomb dropped on my heart and I really can not think straight. Basically I need your opinions here, and I need to see if I can trust my instincts…which I think I can. Do you think this was infidelity or not???? I will do my BEST to be as factual as possible.

Okay…if you remember, I felt as if my H had been neglectful and unaccountable and spending LOTS of time away and "to himself" around the time of his birthday the previous weekend. My last post Meanwhile, I was feeling hurt and lonely. But one thing he said to me, during a bit of a fight when I tried to tell him how I felt, kind of stuck with me; "Well DO something about it…"

So I did. On Friday morning, I took some time to do my own thinking and reclaim control of my own life. For a while there, I was feeling as if "he wouldn’t let me" have friends, write emails or notes, go to my support group, or basically make any of my own decisions—and then I realized that I am a grown up adult…he can’t make up rules for me unless I let him! DUH. So I began to assess the ways in which I had let him have control and given it away…ways in which I had relinquished some of who I am and things that I know I need to do for me…and ways in which I had to do what was in my own best interest. If he had a problem with me doing the things that I KNEW were good for me, that was his issue to deal with—I still had a responsibility to me to do those things (assuming they didn’t harm our M or LB or that kind of thing). I was pretty proud of myself for doing a good job, and I thought things were looking up.

Well, little did I know!!! Later on at night, just a little before getting ready to go to bed, I logged onto my computer to check my emails…as I often do. This was not an unusual thing—I do this pretty regularly—and yet on Friday night, my computer said, "You are already logged on as (H’s name) @hotmail.com. Do you want to stay logged in as this account?" My heart dropped because this was an email account that I did not know of!! Now, just to be clear, I had specifically asked my H for a list of all his email accounts and passwords (and I gave him mine) for Radical Honesty. I specifically asked him, "Do you have any other accounts besides these ones you have given me?" and he said NO!

I told my computer I wanted to stay logged on as this account, and I figured that the password was probably already entered, and I was right. It turned out that there were SIX emails in there from a new OW…and they were dated during the EXACT time when he was being all neglectful and unaccountable for his time—the previous weekend, during his birthday, and up to THANKSGIVING even!! One email gave him her other email accounts and screen names. One email gave him her phone numbers (home and cell) and said she enjoyed talking to him. The next email said (and I’m going to quote this so that I’m not accused of adding anything to it): "Well, nice shot of you. What would the wife say if she knew you were sending here on the puter? … I would sure like to see you. Maybe get a feel of what you have. I just want to feel your lips against mine. I want to experience passion for a few seconds. Something to get me started. I will finish after that. Talking to you gets me hot and bothered. I can't hold for much longer. I am not one to wait." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And one email ON THANKSGIVING no less, said it was good talking with you and I hope you can sneak in a call a little later.

From my point of view, this is DEFINITELY infidelity!!!!! He deliberately and purposefully took steps to hide this entire thing from me!! He set up a secret email account. He made up a secret password. He hid the emails AND phone calls from me. He spoke to another woman about his feelings and needs. He got her phone numbers and called her! He sent her his picture and clearly spoke to her about kissing and passion. They joked about how funny it would be if I knew what they were doing!! And on a day when I thought we were giving thanks as a family for still BEING a family, she was encouraging him to sneak away and contact her!!! Oh, and get this. At first, when I confronted him about it and copied the emails into a file, he told me "IT’S NOT ME!! IT MUST BE SOMEONE ELSE!!" Yeah right. Someone with HIS first, middle and last name and HIS birth year and HIS exact illness crept into our house, created an email account using his identity…all to frame him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> After he eventually came clean, he even went so far as to say that if I hadn’t accidentally discovered this secret account, he would probably still be writing to her because she made him feel good!

OTOH, my H thinks I am making a mountain out of a mole hill. He didn’t love her, so it can’t be an EA because there was no emotion. And they never met or had sex, so it can’t be a PA. They only talked. She made him feel better and feel understood, and being a better person is good, isn’t it?? After all, he can’t talk to me because all I ever do is complain about feeling hurt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It’s okay to have someone else meet a few EN’s, isn’t it?? Oh, and as soon as I discovered the emails (thank God, I copied them to a file) guess what?? He deleted ALL emails, erased all references to ever having been there or ever having existed, and she closed her email. After all, they were "just friends"!!!!!!

BALONEY!!! If they were "just friends" why did he have to hide everything!???? I email people who are just friends, and I don’t hide it from him!! I honestly and truly keep everything on the up-an-up. He has seen my email list and who I write to…and I do show him emails if he feels "funky" and I ask the person’s permission (Hey…I’d like to copy my H your email because blah blah blah). I don’t HAVE anything to hide, and I DO draw the line at certain topics with certain genders as in, I do not and WILL NOT discuss sex with males because it is inappropriate—oh, the occasional "boy I’m sorry it’s been two years since your last big bang" (heehee) but I don’t say stuff that I wouldn’t say or write right in front of his face!

At first, when I first saw those emails, I just thought to myself: "This is IT!! I’m done. I told myself that this would NEVER happen again, NEVER!! And here it is only three months later, and he’s right back at it, AND he thinks he hasn’t done anything wrong!! I don’t WANT to recover from yet another betrayal. I DO NOT WANT THIS!!!" My mind was screaming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> But the next morning, I picked up a book about "After the Affair"…and even though this wasn’t an A I felt like it was a betrayal… So, I’m reading through the book and it talked about how the Hurt party usually feels and how the Unfaithful party feels—so I talked to him about it. I asked him if this was generally how he felt (and BTW, it was). But what REALLY killed pretty much any remaining love I had for him was right after that…a day after I had discovered yet another infidelity (this is number 13 folks)… he tried to force me into "confessing" that my emailing was just the same as his was, so I must be having A’s too!!!!!

First, even if I were having EA’s (which I go to GREAT LENGTHS to avoid), it would not justify HIM having one.

Second, I AM OPEN AND HONEST with him about what I write and who I write to.

Third, on the occasion when I discuss him with anyone, I do it so I can better understand him…I’m a Feeler and often just do not "get" Thinkers, so I ask a couple of Thinkers I know if it makes sense to them. OTOH, he spoke to HER so he could feel good about himself, not so he could learn about me or do something to help me.

AARRGGHH!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So whaddya think, folks?? Was it infidelity??? Or am I just trying to pick a fight???

CJ

It is an affair in my opinion. In this situation, anything that isn't discussing strictly business is suspect. But this is absolutely blatant. I don't care about whether he slept with her or loved her. You can be with someone that you don't love, happens all the time at the bars. But that doesn't mean that nothing is wrong with it. That doesn't mean that there is no betrayal.

You were betrayed, and I am sorry to say that you are continuing the propogation of your pain. I hate this, Lord how I hate this, but after 13, you are doing this to yourself. I know that you are trying, and that you are staying firm. But search your soul. Do you ever really think that this is going to work out? Do you think that if something hasn't changed by now, that it will in the future? You have done the things that you can. You have worked and toiled far beyond what most would be capable of, and yet it is all for naught.

Oh, FaithfulWife, I am so sad for you. I pray that something will give one way or another. Maybe it is, but you just can't see it. God knows how much I hate divorce. I hate it with a passion that cannot be overestimated. But my lady, you are living a lie. I don't know what is better, to remain in a distrustful, loveless relationship or to be divorced. I just don't know.

I pray for you. Oh, how I feel for you. I understand completely the continued betrayal after trying to work. I understand how much more it hurts even than the first. I understand the damage that has been done to you.

Hang tough. We are here for you.

Yes, it is infidelity.

Well, DUH! Of course it's an affair. It's a betrayal of your M, your trust and commitment to each other, your promises to forsake all others. How dare your WH try to compare your friendly e-mails to his pathetic attempts at e-sex with someone else!!

After 13 A's, isn't it time to draw the line?

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

Hi FW,

This is definitly an EA, my exww did the same exact thing with one of her many A's. They discussed having sex, sexual positions, marriage, becoming a family, how they were going to run into each others arms when they met, motels, etc....

At that time she was cold and distant but I couldn't figure out why? I would come near the PC at night and she would close the instant messenger window and say so and so said hi, like a dufus I said oh tell so and so I said hi!....At that time the word "Affair" was a foreign word to me. She would talk on her cellphone at odd times in the night and say she's talking to a boss that flew to Italy and it was daytime there so she was trying to save money for the company, etc...

The only thing I can say is, like my exww she would not stop and she was never sorry about it. She was more sorry she got caught kinda thing. She would look me dead in the eye say she was not talking to nobody, said she cut it off but I would have the proof in my hand. She did the same after A number 5...Even after we had a counseling session she confessed it all, cried in my arms, apologized, what did she do for trust,healing or restoration?, Nothing! 2 days later she went and bought a guy clothes, bought plane tickets to CA to see 2 guys in 2 diff cities....she thought I didn't know...

So you're going to have to get some wisdom on this matter, I was in denial she was doing this at first and she was in denial she was guilty..

No man/woman can love two masters [women/men], he will cling to one or despise the other..

Formerly Confused--Thanks for writing back with your thoughts and opinions. You are right that my instincts know darn well that this IS infidelity and it IS yet another betrayal, but when I get all emotionally stirred up, I tend to doubt my own perceptions. I just needed to "check."

However, there is one thing I specifically wanted to address with you. Just so you know, I do fully understand that for the most part, I am doing this to myself. I can not in all honesty avoid knowing that I have been choosing to basically continue my own pain. I DO get that. I have known for quite a while that I could EASILY end all this, take control of my own life, and make myself happy and secure. Several times now I have consciously and knowingly made the decision to try again and take the risk of being hurt again. So, I’m at least not blind to that, nor do I place blame at his feet for what’s going on in MY life. I chose it!!! Over and over again, I have made the choice knowing the problems HE has, knowing the problems we have as a couple, and knowing what has happened time and again.

Formerly Confused, you asked me if I search my soul, do I really think this is going to work out—if things haven’t changed so far, do I really think they will in the future? In all honesty, no, I do not see this working out. Over and over again I have convinced myself that "this time he really means it" or "this time the change is for real" and over and over again it has gone right back to lies, betrayals, and abusive behavior. This last time, I did see SOME steps in the right direction, but my more calm, logical head told me, "This can’t be a true change. He stopped raging for no apparent reason, so he’s just stuffing it. If he will not going to counseling, then this seeming change can not be real. The underlying issue has not been dealt with, just the outer part has changed." But of course, I WANTED to believe it and I WANTED to give him the chance. Yes indeed, I chose to have hope. NOW, I can honestly say that I suspect this "it’s okay to be unfaithful" attitude will continue in the future. I see no reason—literally NO reason—for hope of recovery and true, intimate love. After years of putting up with the same behavior (just packaged a little different here and there) I do not really see hope of real transformation in the future. Past indicators say it will continue…we were doing well and it continued…I see no reason for it not to continue. And frankly, I can no longer tolerate it, nor should I.

* * * * *
SH94—I must admit I do not know you or know your story, but I do appreciate your post. I will summarize. You asked, "After 13 A's, isn't it time to draw the line?" I think so. Now, to be precise, there have been 2 PA’s (one involving heavy petting and kissing, one involving sex) and several EA’s where emotion was involved and several "infidelities" where he signed up on matchmaker sites or spoke to people explicitly over email. I still count those as part of the 13 A’s but as you know, he doesn’t. Anyway, I don’t actually think that’s the real issue here. The issue is being TRUE to one person and loyal and honest and faithful in heart and body. It seems apparent to me that this just is not in his make up. I don’t know why and I don’t understand, because I am perfectly capable of being loyal and honest and faithful in heart and body. I’m not perfect, nor do I expect perfection, but 13!!!!! Come on!!! That’s a long line of continuously turning to others!!!! After 13, I feel as if I have a duty to myself to say, "Okay, enough is enough. I won’t be in a relationship where it is okay to turn to others over and over again! I just won’t do that to myself anymore."

I think the thing that is really wrecking my mind is that last time I made a "discovery" I SWORE that this would never happen to me again…I would never tolerate it again. That was just 3 MONTHS AGO!! Furthermore, I thought we were doing well and making some progress, so for him to turn to someone else WHILE WE ARE DOING WELL just seems like incomprehensible to me. This is probably why I doubt my own perceptions…because all the indicators *I* saw seemed to say we were doing better. But, that’s another story. Anyway, right now, I am pretty much backed into a corner. I told myself that I would never allow this to happen again, and it has—he knew the penalty, he knew the cost, and he chose to make himself "feel better" at a time when I believed that we were recovering as a couple. I have no choice but to enforce my own consequence, which I established just 3 months ago. D*mn. We only made it 3 MONTHS!! Last time, I thought I would NEVER, EVER have to feel this way again. And you know what REALLY sucks?? It’s my fault because "he can’t talk to me." <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

* * * * *
Finally, EverlastingCompassion, I am so sorry your W did this to you too. It’s bad enough to try to live through this once, but I see you have also lived through numerous A’s of various kinds, and so much of what you said just rings true in my heart!! The funny thing is, I truly can NOT understand the attitude of "if I don’t get caught, it doesn’t hurt you" or "if you don’t know about it, it’s okay." What is THAT???? Yet I see it over and over again in WS’s and in my H!! I too have seen that distant behavior and wondered, "WHY??" I too have had the PC suddenly shut off…things hidden…calls quickly cut off . It’s HORRIBLE. And the big thing I REALLY have trouble understanding is why do they do it?? I have been a good, faithful, decent, patient, forgiving spouse—but I have also yelled, and spent too much time on email, and been mistrusting (well DUH!!!). Yep, I have my faults, but none that really "deserve" infidelity!!!! I guess I have a core belief that if I behave lovingly, then I will be treated lovingly—as if I have to earn it. Yep, my head knows that’s not true, but I keep returning to that I guess, don’t I???

Well everyone, thanks for your opinions and your thoughts. I’m talking to Steve Harley on Thursday, and my counselor before that, so I will let wiser heads help me through this.

CJ

{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}

If it feels like infidelity to you, then it is. Just like if something feels like a LB to you, then it is.

So what are you going to do? Your boundaries have been crossed again. Did you LB when you talked with your H about what you found? If you are still in Plan A mode, then really work on controlling those LBs.

I'm glad you're talking with Steve on Thursday. I wouldn't hesitate calling his dad on the Thursday afternoon radio show either. You'd enjoy talking with Steve's mom and dad.

Good luck CJ. I know this isn't easy and I'm sorry about the latest findings and your H's attitude.

HoFS

Hi, darnit can I empathize Faithful. Glad you're going to be talking to Steve and honest, haven't you had enough? Your H IS having an affair, you know that. By every definition that matters, he is unfaithful.

See, what they do when they're cheating, is that they redraw the boundaries around what is and what isn't cheating. They gerrymander them, stretch them all out of shape until right and wrong, true and false, all take on a new meaning.

You were smart to copy everything from the computer and save it to a file.

I posted recently on what we have to be thankful for. That doesn't mean we're reconciled, or in recovery or even on the way to recovery. I understand the games you're being forced to play. You're a smart woman, you know you can make it on your own, support yourself and even prosper without the millstone of a husband hanging around your neck.

I think it's just a matter of when, not if, you cut him loose for good.

So long, and happy Chanukkah.

Hi CJ,

I'm sorry to have to say that "YES", I believe it is Infidelity.

If all this "friendly" opposite sex interaction was on the up-n-up, your H wouldn't be hiding it from you, or lieing about it to you.

I think you must know in your heart that it's just not right. But I can imagine after being in this for so long, that you doubt your sanity, and with good reason. He's getting pretty good at deflecting and projecting ... but I think you're near your fill.

I'm sorry for the recent discovery. I'd like to be able to tell you that he's probably telling the truth, but all signs point in one direction.

Blessings,
Jo

p.s. Hi there, Bellevue!!!

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>...my instincts know darn well that this IS infidelity and it IS yet another betrayal, but when I get all emotionally stirred up, I tend to doubt my own perceptions. I just needed to "check."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's more than your instincts that know what's going on, CJ. You've explained why this is a betrayal in as cogent a manner as any Thinker.

Yes, this is infidelity. Perhaps not too surprising, since "treatment" of one pathology often results in the development or worsening of a counterbalancing pathology, especially when symptoms are being treated rather than the underlying problem.

The minimization and deflection bothers me more than the infidelity itself (and the sneaking around). This is not simply a matter of a weak man falling prey to an addiction during a time of stress. Your husband appears to be a man who is not ready to face himself or his responsibilities, let alone handle a meaningful relationship.

I'm sorry, CJ. I had really hoped the two of you could work things out, but it does take two, and it's hard to see your husband's mindset as anything other than "What can I get away with?". I'm sure his stresses are real, as are his feelings - these are not under his control, and I have some empathy with him in those regards. But he can choose his attitude and his actions, and not only has he chosen badly to date (for all concerned), but you have provided no basis to suspect that he might choose better in the future.

Maybe he will; but if so, it won't be because you're still there.

You are under no real obligation to keep your word to yourself about not putting up with any more of this #&*%, CJ. But the woman who swore not to do so was a wise one.

Oops! First double post.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

OMG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Second double post. I guess I was having a bad day.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

GDP--thank you so much for responding!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The minimization and deflection bothers me more than the infidelity itself (and the sneaking around). This is not simply a matter of a weak man falling prey to an addiction during a time of stress. Your husband appears to be a man who is not ready to face himself or his responsibilities, let alone handle a meaningful relationship.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry to say that I would have to concur with you...and after a conversation today, it is even MORE glaringly obvious. I feel particularly sad over the fact that from every indicator I could see, we were doing better and making progress in dealing with things. And yes, I mean "we" because I thought that he was facing things and dealing with things--I knew I was facing things--and "we" as a couple were also crawling along. Yet, despite the fact that things "seemed" good, he still made the choice to deceive.

To me, that indicates a MUCH deeper problem, almost an addiction or compulsion. It makes no difference what condition our marriage is in...for some reason he MUST cheat. That is unbelievably sad to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm sorry, CJ. I had really hoped the two of you could work things out,</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>...I'm sure his stresses are real, as are his feelings - these are not under his control, and I have some empathy with him in those regards. But he can choose his attitude and his actions, and not only has he chosen badly to date (for all concerned), but you have provided no basis to suspect that he might choose better in the future.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, I totally agree. I know that some of the demons with which he is struggling can be beyond his control, and I truly do have empathy for those illnesses. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here and I would have left LONG AGO. But I also agree that while he may not be in control of the demons, he IS in control of his actions...even if his actions were to be recognizing that he is not in control, warning me (so to speak) and taking steps to protect himself and others. Once again, it saddens me indescribably to know deep within myself that there really is no reason to believe that he will ever choose any better. Oh, with all my being I want to believe that he can do it!! You can't imagine!! And yet, if I'm honest with myself, I am sure that this pattern will just continue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You are under no real obligation to keep your word to yourself about not putting up with any more of this #&*%, CJ. But the woman who swore not to do so was a wise one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to admit, I am surprised to hear this from you. I know that when I promised myself on Labor Day that "this was the last time" it was more of a self-preservation kind of promise than a legally-binding oath. I also know that I have no particular obligation to honor that promise...except for one thing. I have an obligation TO ME. That is where the line is drawn. Sure, there is no legal necessity, but there is a duty to myself that I just can't deny any longer!! For too long I have made excuses, given second chances, and let myself be treated very cheaply. How long can I do that and have any self-respect??

However, you and I have had long talks about marriage vows and honoring them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I think we are on the same page regarding our philosophies there. Thus, I'm surprised a little at your response...not SHOCKED, just a little surprised to hear it from YOU.

Thanks for taking the time to write though. I appreciate hearing from you, old friend.

CJ

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

Unfortunately I agree. Affair. How did they meet? And have they met already?

My stbx would use what I call political spin to get out of a corner when a d day would arise. I would ask him about something I found out and he would spin the issue and blame me for being nosy. Then he would pretend that it wasn't him also. Like that song from last year "it wasn't me". My best friend busted him walking into ow, Ms. Monkeyho's house, and he said he wasn't there and that I must be insane.

Please find out from Steve if plan A is still right for you. There is a point when you are violated enough and to protect and preserve what love is left a b is in order. IMHO, he doesn't sound too remorseful. Just sounds like he is in a tight spot. I remember once when Deucey came home after my discovering his travelling to south beach w/Ms. monkeyho and staying in a five star art deco hotel that "Baby I always come home to you don't I?". Those were his words after he clearly denied it.

Please find out from Steve if these actions you are taking now are enough to help this situation. He violated the rules of recovery in a biggie way. I want things to work out for you guys but want to let you know that sometimes they need to see the door closing on the relationship before they start wanting to change or wanting to change what they are presently doing to sabotage the marriage.

Did you know that if you shave a leopard, you will still see the pattern of his spots on his skin? Did you know that the same is true of a tiger?

There is a connection between that factoid and how I feel about your latest discovery. I will not be any more explicit.

CJ, you are the role model for persons entering Plan A. But, somehow, I'm not convinced you can ever this battle.

((((((((((CJ))))))))))

CJ,
So sorry to hear you're suffering yet another failed reconciliation. I'm going to make this short and I hope I'm not too blunt. You posed the question "Is this infidelity?" That's not really the question, is it?

Here's what I see in your dynamics at this point. After 12 infidelities, he promised not to cheat anymore. A mere three months later he's betrayed you one more time.

After 12 infidelities, you gave him one more chance, with a promise to yourself that you would never allow this to happen to you again. A promise to yourself based on your H's conduct is giving him the control. You said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, right now, I am pretty much backed into a corner. I told myself that I would never allow this to happen again, and it has—he knew the penalty, he knew the cost, and he chose to make himself "feel better" at a time when I believed that we were recovering as a couple. I have no choice but to enforce my own consequence, which I established just 3 months ago. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are backed into a corner, one that you made. You issued an ultimatum, and he gave you reason to enforce the consequences. Perhaps you can explain to me how you can feel honest with yourself and continue to stay with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>I have to admit, I am surprised to hear this from you. I know that when I promised myself on Labor Day that "this was the last time" it was more of a self-preservation kind of promise than a legally-binding oath. I also know that I have no particular obligation to honor that promise...except for one thing. I have an obligation TO ME. That is where the line is drawn. Sure, there is no legal necessity, but there is a duty to myself that I just can't deny any longer!! For too long I have made excuses, given second chances, and let myself be treated very cheaply. How long can I do that and have any self-respect??

However, you and I have had long talks about marriage vows and honoring them I think we are on the same page regarding our philosophies there. Thus, I'm surprised a little at your response...not SHOCKED, just a little surprised to hear it from YOU.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, CJ, I think there's a considerable difference between renegotiating a contract and reneging on it. The purpose behind renegotiation is to better the "deal" for all parties involved, whereas reneging generally means one or more parties have been cheated.

When your contract is with yourself, renegotiation is relatively simple, although that doesn't mean you don't have to be careful not to cheat yourself. If you back out of your promise, make sure it's because you really believe it is the better thing to do, not just because it's the easier thing to do.

When your contract is with other people, all kinds of additional questions can arise. Was the contract founded on a fraud, for example - does that void the contract? Or what if one party becomes incapacitated in some manner - Does that void the contract, or (in the case of psychological or emotional incapacitation) does that make renegotiation impossible?

Marriage adds whole new layers to the problem, in my view, since I don't believe marriage is anywhere near as simple as a contract.

So, you see, I don't think I'm being inconsistent...

In your current situation, CJ, I have little advice for you. I don't see how your staying with your husband is going to do either of you any good, and frankly I think it seems likely to do both of you harm. But there are a lot of things I don't see or understand, and if there's one thing I can be confident of, it's that God often works in strange ways.

I have become increasingly thankful that my own situation is so straightforward, although the clarity of my own experience makes it all the more difficult for me to offer guidance to those in more murky waters. About the only thing I can really offer is the lesson of how important it is to be true to yourself. Without my understanding of who I am and who I want to be, my own clarity would dissipate in an instant.

You are a wise woman, CJ, and I think you know yourself about as well as anyone I have ever known. You'll figure out what you need to do. You are also a strong woman, and I believe you'll do what you need to do. Whatever that is.

{{{{{CJ}}}}}