Last Thursday I wrote to stbx and told him that if we could not agree on Christmas visitation, that he would need to take me to court as he threatened. This was after he had my son in tears, bullying him about meeting OW at Christmas, and spending a week with them. Son wants to see his dad, not OW. We have tried MANY times to compromise this with stbx, but he is having none of it, just uses his usual bullying tactic to try and get what he wants.

Anyway, last night I was in the room when 9 yr old son was talking to his Dad on the telephone. Here is what Son was saying.....

Oh, we are going Christmas shopping with you when you get here? Good.....so that is just you, me, G and S? (his sisters)

....pause while stbx speaks.....

Yeah, but when we go, it is going to be just you, me G and S, right?

......pause again......

Yeah, but when we go it is ONLY going to be you, me G and S, right?

.....pause, while son rolls his eyes and actually gives the phone the FINGER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ....

Yeah, but listen, when we go Christmas shopping, it is ONLY you and me AND G AND S, and NO GF???? Cos if she's there, I'm NOT GOING!!!! (Son getting a mite agitated, here)

............pause...........

Dad, You are NOT going to WIN this one okay? If GF is there I will NOT BE! I am going now, here's S.....

Prime example of stbx avoiding the question, and the issue until you DIRECTLY ask him with the right words. Son is not stupid, and he got an answer from his Dad, FINALLY, but ugh....it makes me sick when he does this to a child.

Then he tells middle daughter that we are already divorced, and that GF HAS to come otherwise she will be all alone (I heard him say this). Oh, BOO HOO!

Well, I got sufficiently riled to write my lawyer this morning and tell her to draw something up that prevents him from forcing the children to go if OW is there....yes, there are laws here that support this. Well, not in those exact words....but he cannot FORCE the children to go with him if I am the primary custodian, and if visitation is not by mutual agreement. I am awaiting her reply.

25 days, and they can't go quickly enough for me.

Jacky

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Nina too ]</small>

Hi Jackie! It's sad, it really is what exes will do to the children they created and raised in love - then this?? About the only thing I could comment on is: your STBX is doing a marvelous job of turning his children against him! But, since he's 'in the fog' he doesn't care - because HIS priorities are so much more 'important' to him than the welfare of and relationships with his own blood children. I feel for you and I've prayed for you and your children. Keep the faith, girl!
Harold

our 13 yr old got the same crap from his dad. X phone rings its OW. talks with her forgets that its his son only day to see him. Son was mad that OW called on his day. After X got off the phone he told son he was going to be dating, just like mom will one day. X then wanted to explain sex to our son. Son thought dad wanted him to have sex with OW. Son said dad has nasty pictures of Linda on his computer. X knows that son plays all day on his computer, you would have thought he would have taken them off when he came over. That was the start of our son not wanting to be with dad. X would tell our son he would use the police dept to make him come with him. We moved our son is old enough to make the choice in Fl. Our son has had it with dad & ow, he has choosen not to see his dad anymore. X & ow are engaged or M. X wouldnt say, we had to learn it from her X. My X told both me & son together that he was leaving to be with MOW. Now he wants our son to accept her as stepmom, son calls her a whore. I believe children have rights they should not be made to go with someone they dont want to be with. Our son pain has now turned to hate for his dad. Dad still blames me for son not wanting to see him. One day he will wake up alone & see what he did to the people who loved him.

m-too long
c-13, 29, 8 gd
me-48, x-43
d-5-02

ow-32
c-3 under 10
d-7-02
m-10yrs

Jacky--

Stick it to him and ms. clickety clack, legally that is. He is a jerk. And guess what? She's won the booby prize. A man who would do this to his own kids. Don't be surprised if she also shows up on your front door. This awful woman is the real impetus here. She may want you to see this fiasco in person so be prepared both mentally and legally. And if she is standing there with Mr. clickety clack, slam the door.

I am praying for your guys..God's granting us both a new beginning for us and our precious little ones. We will go on. We will make the best of this. We will tackle the tough decisions and still do the right thing even if it is by far the most difficult choice. Someone has gotta think about the kids first for a change. And that's us

Hi Jacky,

It's bad enough what BS's have to go thru but it's the kids who are big time loosers. Their reactions are normal as they have been hurt big time. I praise WS's who want to spend time with their kids, but they have to realize that it will take time and they have to give of themselves before the kids will respond to them. But shoving OW in their faces just drives them away & it should. He just doesn't get it, then again, that's a reoccuring theme or he wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

I pray that the legal system will uphold your (the kids) wishes. The kids have been thru enough.

D.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nina too:
[QB]Last Thursday I wrote to stbx and told him that if we could not agree on Christmas visitation, that he would need to take me to court as he threatened.

Hi Petal,

Jackie dear, this situation is going to spoil everyones holiday..but especially for the children.

And as much as you will not like to hear this..I think it would be good if you could disingage the children from this. As a friend Im going to tell you the truth...I think you both are fighting a losing battle and frankly the both of you are using the children as the weapons.

In the end he will always be the dad...and you will always be the mom. They know whats wrong and why you both are not together. Thats enough.

It seems to me the children need protection from this battle of wills . I have a great amount of experience with this situation and in the end I know how much it hurts the children....and I know neither of you want that to happen.

Its ok if you dont agree with me on this. And these are just my thoughts. But I do know your situation as well as anyone here. And as a friend Id like to see you all get past this and on to a new and better life...Hey...he lost you...hes an idiot...Move on and up.

Love and Light my friend,

Randy

I'm dealing with the sort of situation at the moment. From where I sit, I don't see why the children should have to go with someone they don't want to be with. I can't see why we should have to sit back and accept this to make it 'easier' on them, because I don't think it does make it easier. It puts them in the invidious position of having to share their father/parent with someone they have no feelings for, and in some cases, no respect for. The father, in NinaToo's case, should make the effort to spend time with his children without the OW. She's with him 52 weeks of the year, surely she can spare him a couple of weeks so that he can spend some one-on-one time with his children, instead of them having to share him with the OW.

M.

ESPECIALLY when the kids have spent a total of six hours max with the OW, and that was over 18 months ago.

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Nina too ]</small>

Sounds like total manipulation of the kids by both of yall.

Obviously no one is really considering the feelings of the kids....Why should the kid be able to set parameters for a shopping trip. I can understand him wanting one on one time with his father, but his trying to make sure the OW is excluded is not his place.

Of course Nina is considering her son's feelings - he doesn't want to go shopping with the OW, and therefore, he shouldn't have to. Why on earth would anyone say it is not his "place" - he is a human being like everyone else with the right to make decisions about how to spend his time and with whom to spend it - the father does not own him. There is absolutely no benefit to the child to having to share what little time he has with his father with anyone, and especially with the person responsible for the destruction of his family.

No Nina is not considering her sons feelings. She is considering how she feels about the destruction of her family and her son being put in a position of having to confront the reality of OW. I can understand why she doesn't want that, I can even understand why the kid wouldnt want that. I would even suggest that, this be done slowly and with sensitivity for the kids. But the kid has no right to decide who goes on a shopping trip. The OW did not destroy the family, the WH did!

Oh...what absolute rubbish...if an OW becomes involved with a married man, then she too has to take some responsibility for her part in it, not just the WH. Re the kids and the shopping trip - I think you miss the point. It's not JUST a simple shopping trip - I suspect that's being used as 'bait' to try and lure the kids into spending time with the OW, and they can see through that. My point is why should they have to????? If the exH wants to hook up with someone else, then I really don't see why the kids have to accept her if they don't want to. She is not their mother. She should have very little to do with their lives. I think if we sit back and say they should, then we are condoning those relationships, and giving kids the message that it's ok for marriages to fall apart in that manner, and that's just not the case. Why can't someone here take the moral high point?? Why do we have to be politically correct about all of this??? No-one is advocating that the father be denied access to his children. What is being suggested is that he spend that time with his children, and that the OW not poke her nose in where the kids don't want it.

M.

flame me if you want to. I do not have kids so take what i say with a grain of salt but freshie and randy maybe you should READ all of Nina post instead of just going by this one.
1) her son is old enough to make up his own mind regarding his father who has lied to him and has been caught in those lies, his son and the siblings went on a date with the other woman when they were all in SA, and he is smart enough to know that his father is wrong and wants no part of it

2) and for all that think go ahead Nina and make him go because it's PC and he will get over it I say bull, like nellie said this boy has his owm veiws and for Nina to deny them is setting a bad exmaple in the long run............

3) his father is not putting his kids best interest first (well thats a given) it's almost like he trying to prove something to cli-clap,
like see I still have control over my family and
can do anything I want and Nina will cave.

I think you are doing the right thing and teaching you kids values and letting you stbx the consequences of what happends when you leave you wife and KIDS

Okay MN, we are all entitled to our opinions here.
I think that is far more toxic to try to get my kids to feel animosity or disrespect for the other woman. I have told my kids to treat the other woman with kindness and respect. They have no assurance that, I will live forever, no assurance that their father won't one wind up with custody if something happens to me, and an evil stepmother to boot.

Not to say that she wouldn't be that anyway, but my kids nor me have nothing to do with her behavior nor have any one us done anything to entice or warrant any bad behavior on the part of OW. They will meet her or some other woman sooner or later.

Well I will just say this,:

If I have to read all of NINAs post to understand, she won't be gettin any opinion from me.

As far as the son and his right to his feelings. He has that right, but Mama don't need to be encouraging it.

stick to your guns Nina, WS's that act like ours do, will stop at, really nothing, to cause trouble any chance they get.

Your S is old enough to decide whether or not he wants to spend time with his dad, your children know the truth, so it matters little how he tries to make you seem like the bad guy/gal, he is just ruining his relationships with his children, just like he did with you.

The father should respect his son's wishes, he would expect the same of the son, (POJA?) its sad that he won't or refuses to see what he is doing to what is left of his family.

take care.

A mama would know just how important it is for that relationship with father to be ruined, no matter how much father deserves it, it will hurt the kids more. The kids have enough to deal with with a broken family without being asked to choose sides or encourage him to break the relationship with his father just because his father is wrong.

I can totally understand why you do not accept the situation and why your son feels as he does. But it will not benefit your son to lose his relationship with his father as well.

I'm sorry not meaning to flame you but where in Nina's post to you see her poisining her son's mind and the father? he has to take responsablity(sp?)as to where his relationship with his son lays he walked out on his kids and for you to think that they don't know and should not express how they feel toward the parents that hurt them is adsurd. So now he has to make happy and to pretend for his father that he is ok with the sitch mean while the left behind spouse has to deal with the angry kids. sorry but in mho you expect a tv movie story.
this is the same guy that wanted only his son to visit him during the summer not the other 2 so he (the father has his own motives for pushing this)

I am not flamed. The situation is already painful enough. I said before and I will say again, I do not know all the facts.

I would not suggest the son be a doormat for anyone. Neither would I suggest the son be estranged. If that is what needs to happen, it will only add pain.

As far as how to resolve his feelings, I would suggest counseling for the father and the son. But, how this works out, of course, I want the best for Nina as others do. Maybe it seems as if I don't, but I have been there.

Lets turn this scenario around a bit, shall we.

Hypothetically, lets say Jacky and WH are divorced. And son doesn't want to go somewhere with Jacky and her hypothetical boyfriend. Do you think Jacky would FORCE her son against his will to do it anyway?

The answer is easy, NO!, of course she wouldn't.

And knowing that Jacky and her WH are not divorced, and also knowing her son is aware of this and adamantly protests going if GF will be there, just why would a parent force this on their child??!!

I just don't understand. Even tho children are young doesn't invalidate their choices when it comes to something they were raised to know is wrong.

Maybe I'm out of line, I just think he should not be forced to go if he is that upset about the GF being there.

JMVHO
Jo

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>