Well, if this doesn't just beat all.......

I am detaching rather nicely from ExH.

And am finally ready to pursure annullement.

So I e-mail ex with request for some info. that I need - I had already given him a copy of the petition, so he knows that I'm asking for legitimate things.

For example, I tell him what my case managers have said are my grounds and I ask Ex for a witness list to be polite and so as not to embarress him.

He e-mails me back his list of reasons of why he left me - FINALLY - I've been wondering for a year and a half, and that my behavior is the real reason that the marriage should be annulled - not because of anything that he has done.

However, none of my list of faults that he names are grounds for an annullment - sorry, but wanting to stay home and be a mom to his 4 kids is not a bad thing( he said that I lost my drive and didn't want to work outside the home anymore but rather wanted to mooch off of him) - ok, so let him pay money for school and daycare for 4 kids - how come he'll pay someone to watch his kids, but I couldn't do it in the marraige.

WEIRD!

Anyway, he is not liking the fact that the only grounds to get an annullment are because of HIS faults - mainly adultery, so he doesn't want to cooperate.

Never fear - I don't need him, and politely e-mailed back that I won't trouble him any more about the matter.

But it gotg me all riled up because the things that he listed for the reasons for leaving were so STUPID!

They were nothing that couldn't have been worked out say - 1) if he would have talked to me about them and 2) would not have had an affair.

And he is very pround of the fact that OW)wife #2) is the only other wonan that he has dated(while we were married that is - barf)

I wanted to reply and explain to him his misconceptions and then said - NOPE - the fog is TOO THICK - and he does not want to understand.

He wants to be right, he wants to place blame and he wants a legitimate excuse to validate his choices, which he will never have.

So, it's a new year, and one WITHOUT exH.

And that is a good thing.

Here's to a Happy New Year For Us All! K

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</small>

Happy New Year to you too! From the sounds of it on this board, we will all have a BETTER New Year!

K,

The fog is thick and XH has obviously justified himself to the point of no return. WH gave me a list of things that were wrong with me and they too were things that could have been worked thru if given the opportunity. WH didn't like it when I cut way back on work to take care of the kids either It's good that you didn't respond - it's not worth it. (He's not worth it) You are good person who will get thru this.

I have a friend from New Orleans that is seeking an annulment after 5 yrs of DV and 10 separated. XH went balistic " You will always be my wife, you can't do that!" He was a cheatin' alcoholic that caused sooo much destruction.

God Bless,

D.

When your ex H looks at the annulment questions he is to answer, it should become very clear to him where the blame lies for the demise of your marriage. There isn't a gray area. "Were either of you unfaithful?" "Did you commit everything you had into saving your marriage?" etc, etc. My ex chose not to cooperate with my annulment proceedings, because he knew that even he, the king of spin, couldn't get around the direct questions that left no question about his behavior. On the other hand, me answering the questions showed me that while I definitely could've improved as a wife, I did all I could to be a good wife and mother and to stay together. It was freeing for me, and damning for him. I wondered if he did cooperate, would I read his submissions? I've never received real reasons why he was a repeat adulterer, or how he perceives my role in the failed marriage. All I got was stupid things like "You are too giving, and it made me feel selfish." and stuff that he couldn't have really felt. I decided that although it would be tempting to read it, I wouldn't. It didn't matter anyway, as he didn't cooperate. There was nothing in it for him, so he didn't take the time. Story of his life! I didn't even tell my ex I was seeking an annulment. I figured he would get the paperwork soon enough, and he knew me enough to know I would be doing this. Good luck!!!

Could have expected that. HE is very very foggy. And is in total denial as is my stbx about the divorce. And mine says his AFFAIRS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DIVORCE.

And our reasons are the same, he just didn't want to work anything out. If the gripes the WH's had were real, then any halfway decent counselor could have worked through the issues with the both of us.

Happy New Year. Happy Freedom in 03!

GIIC,

This past year I lost 215 lbs, the 40 I lost and the 175 of xH!!!! The New year is looking good!!!

At least xH did admit that the OW (new wife) was the reason for the divorce and pretty much the only reason!! At some point she will be sued for allenation of affection!!! It can happen in my state!!

Happy New Year to all!!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have a friend who is not Catholic. Her x, who was not Catholic, wanted to marry a Catholic woman within the Roman Catholic church. Therefore, he went through the process of an annullment. When she got the papers requesting information from her, she filled them out - complete with details about his affair/s. He got his annullment anyway.

I don't imagine his fog will keep you from getting the annullment if you really want it.

Daybreak. COOL, can I use your line on the weight loss????

is alienation of affection legal in NJ????

I know OW is being named in my divorce action and she will be subpoened, but can I sue her too????
heres to a better 2003!
Dawn

Dawn am not sure that it is legal in NJ but is here in SD!!!

My kids laughed at my weight loss line last night too!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GodIs In Control,

I will have to say that I don't understand anulment in your case.

The bible speaks of adultery as grounds for divorce, but anulment? Four kids? Come on here. You were married and not just spoofed by the whole thing.

I have to say that I feel that some catholics will think or say anything to be able to marry in the catholic church again. The bible does not mention anulment. Only divorce exused for adultery, or being married to an unbeleiver that wants to leave.

I thought that it was for an accidental mistake that was immediately recognized- or the marriage never consemated. Four children? Are you saying that they don't exist? They were sa mistake?Explain this please.

ezra-

I have a book for you to read - Annulment - The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster.

Frankly, before I had to petition for an annulment, I wasn't even sure what it was.

I have four kids and believed the until death do you part.

However,

with that said, there are some things I have learned.

That book answers alot of questions, but here is my take.

We are humans.

And we have free will.

And we are living to try and do what is right, do God's will, love others etc.

However, we sin.

And Satan is always trying to tempt us and lure us into sinning, and thereby turning away from God.

Ok.

With that said.

I beleive that marriage as created by God is an incredible vocation and something that when lived - and since I'm Catholic - lives as a sacrament, can truly help make us one with each other and with God.

However, humans marry humans.

So, since we're not perfect, things happen.

And in my case, my ExH has been truly led astray - not that one day he may wake up and smell the coffee - because I believe that God is always trying to get us to follow Him - but I have to rememebr that we are all on our OWN journey toward God and heaven.

And some of us slip up in bigs ways.

So what does that mean for a Catholic, who is married to someone who has civilly divorced them and civillay remarried another, and who has children between them.

What does God want?

I have to think. That for a person to do what my Ex did, that there is something wrong with him.

I mean who leaves a pregnant wife and their three chidlren? What Christian, normal decent guy does this?

My Ex has problems. Ones which he is not willing and possibly not able to address at this time in his life. In fact he may never be able to address them.

He may actually be unable to be married. To live the sacrament of marriage.

Sometimes you don't know this about a person until after you've been married.

I credit this to the inadequate preparation that the Catholic church gives to those wanting to get married - but their attitude it bascially to trust that we know what we're doing and if we say we want to do the right thing, then they trust what we say.

Yes, actions speak louder than words. And divorcing and remarrying says volumes about a person.

Whether my ex wants to believe it or not, he has a history of looking for intimate relationships with women OUSIDE the marriage. ACtually he admits this but says that it is MY fault. Ok. I can understand that, however, it would have been up to him to TELL ME THAT and have a committment to try and change that instead of considering that that was a given and not doing anything about it. That is not living the sacrament of marriage and by his statements has shown that he does not understand how to live it or does not care to do his part.

So, does God want me to live with 4 kids, without a spouse for the rest of my life while Ex is married?

BEcause we are human, our chidlren in their formative years need to see their parents in a loving healthy relationship, otherwise THEY will end up in unhealthy unloving relationships - it's just how humans are made, it's how we work, it's how God made us to work.

So, do I let my kids grow up with Ex and his OW giving them the example of a healthy marriage and then let them see me unhappy and alone and try to ruin their lives by them trying to fix my life or by trying to act as the pther parent or the spouse. Some kids do that.

It seems to be a greater evil to hurt the kids in this way.

And I think that the church recognizes this.

Remember what Jesus told the diciples before he ascended into heaven - what you bind on earth is bound in heaven and what you LOOSEN on earth is LOOSEN in heaven.

It's not that we as Catholics who seek annulments are trying to find an easy way out.

We are trying to live the life God wants us to live.

And God wants us to use the gifts that He has given us and love others and we cannot do that when we are attached to someone who is basically a rotted limb.

It needs to be cut off.

I have prayed, and prayed daily, hourly and continue to do so. God has sent life preservers to my ExH thoughout this entire time that even I have seen, but yet Ex has not changed, he has not gotten the message and God has allowed him to be gone. It must be part of ex's journey.

But I know that God wants wonderful things for me, and perhaps HE knows that Ex cannot be the one to give me those things.

In fact, Ex was leading me away from God instead of to him and I think that God saw that and allowed A to happen to get me back on the right track.

Sometimes we aren't supposed to be back with a certain person.

And an annulment is about prayer and trying to find out what exactly the situation is and what God wants for each particular marriage.

Yes we still had children, but if the marriage is anmnuled then it will say that we did not have a sacrament - for whatever reason, and often one or the other spouses are not allowed to marry again in the church if they are found to be incapable of being able to live the sacrament - which would be the case of my ex - until he fixed himself.

So, while I am not crazy about the idea that what I thought would be forevever, really is not. I know that it was not because of me. It was because of a failing and possible fatal flaw on the part of my ex.

He still does not understand the gravity of the nature of the annulment - thinks he can get it because I didn't keep the house as clean as he would like - which speaks VOLUMES to me because it shows me that he does not understand what marriage is even after all these years and he possibly never did - which would mean that he did not know what he was committing too and therefore did not have the capacity to committ.

Does any of this make sense?

Let me know if you have any more questions.

But in the end. God wants to heal us because He is LOVE and this may be one of the ways He uses to do this.

K

GIIC,
It does make sense to me what you are saying.

What doesn't is the fact that divorce takes care of this. He commited adultery, and you are biblically excused from the marriage. You have a divorce certificate and are held blameless before God and free to marry again. The bible is very clear on this.

What I don't understand about the Catholic church is the need for them to create annulments. I base and check all of my beliefs by the bible. I am not trying to bash Catholics here. My daughter was just married in the church and went through twelve weeks of classes on the commitment to eachother and Christ. The marriage ceremony was the most beatiful because of the emphesis placed on the holy state of marriage-for life.

I see that almost any case of divorce can be annulled with time and money. This is not right. I think that the Catholic Church is finally taking a look at itself in other areas and this one should not be over looked.

I see your case-I don't see your husbands. We all have temptations, we all don't fall into them.

ezra-

I guess my response would be that since that it is through the church(man) that the sacraments are administered, so to release one from the sacrament of marriage it also needs to be done through the church.

Just as we go to confession to a priest, and not only directly to God.

I also think that the church wants to make sure that we have a valid biblical reason for the annulment, because there may be people who may lie about it and someone needs to make sure of the truth of the claim.

I do hope that it just doesn't take money and who you know to get an annulment. The price is the same for everyone in the diocese and at least here the priests are pretty honest.

It is just a fact of life that humans make up the church and priests are still human, and like us can be led astray. But for the most part I think that they have good intentions.

The annulment proceedings here start with the petition being looked over by a lay couple trained by the diocese and then there is an entire process with witnesses and panels to process through.

I would love to know what 12 week program that the church used to prepare your daughter for marriage. We need that here.

And also I think that adultery per se is not necessarily grounds for an annulment in the church. I think that it needs to be continous not just a one night stand. But in my case, the remarriage will play a role in the fact that Ex obviously didn't consider marriage to be for life.

K

GIIC,
The 12 week program was just what the Deacon insisted on if he was to marry them. My daughter attended the school for through the sixth grade and this particular deacon has been close to the family even though we were not actually Catholic.
I believe he is truly a saint. He retired early for a job running a technical college to do full time FREE marriage counseling. He has saved numerous marriages in the town. He has a weekly group for couples who are seperated or struggling. They begin with songs of praise and break down into groups seperate from their spouse and discuss their issues, gather input, get prayer etc. It is also about accountability.And there is NO COST WHAT SO EVER!!! In this community there is much poverty.
People help eachother out annonamously. Send food, pay a mortgage payment without anything expected. This man is devinely sent. I wish in the town we are now in there was support like this.
My husband and I are really struggling right now.He's working so much and home a day or two a week-and we spend it fighting.Please pray for me. I know that you are right with God and he hears your prayers.
I guess its good when I think about it-the annullments. I'm not trying to knock my ex mil, but her church married her 4 times and 2 of the marriages she was the OW.

In some ways, I feel the bible or God doesn't recognize any marriaige but the first. It's the wording in the bible that leads me to believe this. It's sad to say this when I am on my third marriage. I know it is recognized here on earth but in the heavenly realms-not sure.
My second husband was a wife abuser. It was a short lived marriage. I did everything possible. He went to prison for assalting me so bad. I feel no guilt there. My first marriage ended primarily due to his alcohol use. I do not feel completely guitless. He did not abuse me. He was faithful-except a one nighter while we were seperated which I 'sort of' forgave him for. I was pregnant so it really hurt. You know what I mean here.
But 'in sickness and in health' goes through my mind occationally. He's remarried and I am. I can't go back, but I'd be lying if I said it never haunted me. Maybe I don't feel forgiven.

GIIc
Just wanted to add that I know you have alot of children with this man. I had six with my first.
He is NEVER out of my life. Sometimes its as though they live in the same house with us. The children and cross talk, and my kids just don't seem to like anything about his wife. I have even grown to like her! I like her better than I like him! I have seen them go through the same things that we did.
Just prepare yourself and know that if you remarry-he will always be around and talked about and at the kids concerts, games conferances,graduations and weddings and so on!
Second marriages seem like they should be easier because you know what can go wrong. WRONG!

Am supporting you K and the decision to annul. I believe that this is a good thing. Even though I am not Catholic, am a Presbyterian, that it is a good process because too many people are divorced without accepting any ramifications or responsibility to the divorce happening. It is so sad. They do not accept any responsibility as your xH and my vstbxh. They think it is our faults. And I think that this is something that needs to be cleared for our walk with God. I am going to find out if I can get one too.

It doesn't bastardize children. Nope. It is about having one party unable to grasp the concept and the depth of marriage. Many can't. I am the second wife of Deucey. He cheated also on his first in another state I have found out. it is his fatal flaw. Until he finds God he shouldn't be allowed spiritually to remarry at all. Wish our governmental laws worked such that those who are failures at marriage and aren't willing to address at least the worldly and legal concerns shouldn't be allowed to remarry again until they are well. Just my 2 cents.

And it is sad. We will have to deal with cross talk and all that jazz. But I have detached so much and my son doesn't talk that much about his dad unless it is about something that is wrong or about the child of ms. family values hitting him with a toy etc. I am just detaching from him so much that I don't really care. And I am sad for that.