GnomeDePlume,

I appreciate your comment. You sound like you are a therapist or very knowable about this topic?

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I never meant to imply that this is a disease. I hear what you're saying, but I find it so hard to believe that infatuation and the natural drugs associated with it do not influence and perpetuate this condition. Agreed, someone in the fog is in a psychotic state and no doubt stress is a contributing factor, but I personally cannot imagine infatuation not being a primary cause and very influential factor in this psychotic state.

What I offered helped me account for the irrational and destructive behavior I saw in my WW. I've done a lot of reading on the topic. Everything I have read and what I have seen points to infatuation run-a-muck.

Again I do not mean any disrespect and I do see what you’re saying. If you have any references relating to this topic, please post them. I would definitely like to read them. This may help answer some of FeelingAllAones question in regard to his WW behavior.

If nothing else, I think we can agree that the individual's decision making ability is severely impaired and they have very little rational control.

Thanks,
Derrel

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Lost & Found ]</small>

I had to take my kids back to her and her new boy friends apartment.
If I were you, I'd think seriously about getting an order from the courts so she cannot have the children around the om. At the very least get an order to so the om cannot spend the night while the kids are there. This is something most courts will agree with.

She even went so far as telling our daughter that in time she would thank her for leaving me because you have to be happy first.
+++If this is so, I would RUN IMMMEDIATELY to a lawyer and get full custody of the children.+++ I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE I AM PUTTING ON THIS!!!
Telling something like this to an 8 year old borders (in my opinion) on child abuse/mental cruelty. She is really gonna mess up your kid talking like this.

You daughter should NOT be played with like this. Telling her she is gonna be happy because she no longer has a family because mom wasn't happy?

So if your daughter is not happy in class, it is okay to get up and leave?
If she is not happy at work, it is okay to just leave?
If she is getting a ticket from the policeman, it is okay just to drive off?
And on and on...

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost & Found:
<strong>I do not think we can ignore the fact that we are basically taking about infatuation, and therefore the human conditions associated with it. Agreed, someone in the fog is in a psychotic state, but I think you cannot exclude that infatuation is a primary root cause of the psychotic state.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as I know, my (ex-)wife did not leave me for somebody else. I do not believe that infatuation was a cause, root or otherwise, of her "fog". Rather the fog originated from a conflict between her values and her behaviors. She did what she felt was right for her to do at the time, but in so doing she violated her own deeply-held principles. The resulting dissonance has led her to develop astonishingly paranoid beliefs and to act against her own self-interest and stated desires, as she has attempted to create for herself a "reality" in which her behavior would be justified.

The actual root cause of my wife's desertion isn't relevant here; only that it wasn't infatuation. Nevertheless, I grant you that it seems reasonable to me that an infatuation (particularly when combined with a state of emotional vulnerability due to those proverbial unmet needs) could lead someone to do something which, although it felt "right" in some way, was nonetheless known to be wrong. I believe it is this betrayal of principle which causes the subsequent psychotic state, as early rationalizations fail to remove feelings of guilt and stronger justifications must be found - justifications which can't be based in reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>If you have any references relating to this topic, please post them. I would definitely like to read them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was going to point you to an article, but unfortunately it's been removed from the web. You might find Charles Ford's book Lies! Lies!! Lies!!!: The Psychology of Deceit interesting reading.

GnomeDePlume &#8211;Thank, I will check your reference out. To be honest I&#8217;m still skeptical that infatuation does not play and important role in the case of infidelity, because there is no doubt that the side-effects fit the typical WS&#8217;s actions and attitude. And to be honest I have only seen the term fog used in case of infidelity, but I do see your point. Humans are very complex and I&#8217;m sure there are many different causes and influences for this irrational and destructive behavior.

Maybe to some extent I'm just oversimplifying all this. Anyhow this helped me stop trying to make sense of the craziness and accept there is no logical answer or explanation.

Take Care and Thanks again,
Derrel

A drug addict will do just about anything for the next fix. They think nothing about selling everything they own without considering the consequences of it in a few weeks.

A ws usually hasn't had the intense feelings found in the beginning of a relationship for a while. When someone new enters the picture, things start to get blurry as to what is right/wrong because it "feels" so good.

Rats wired up with electrodes in their brain to stimulate them sexually when a bar is pressed, will do it repeatedly until they die form exhastion/hunger/thirst.

When it comes to logic vs. emotions, the emotions will rule, 99% of the time, especially when it seems as if everything possible has been done. This is the MAIN reason MB teaches you to NOT get into a situation where you may become closely involved with someone of the opposite sex. By the time you realize there is more there than you were expecting, it is too late.

GDP,
I believe it is this betrayal of principle which causes the subsequent psychotic state, as early rationalizations fail to remove feelings of guilt and stronger justifications must be found - justifications which can't be based in reality.
Absolutely! Which is why most affairs will end badly. The ws KNOWS they are doing something wrong, even while they are doing it but cannot force themselves to stop it. After the "fog" clears and they can look clearly at what has happened, most ws are in total amazement (not a strong enough word) at their behavior during the affair. They cannot understand how they could put aside everything they previously believed in and they get "psychotic" in trying to understand it.

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

Just for the record, I am neither a therapist, nor do I consider myself very knowledgeable on any of this stuff. I learned what I have learned for the sake of my own sanity.

I'm sorry that I didn't make this clearer, but I definitely do agree that infatuation plays an important role in infidelity. Absolutely. I just don't think it's enough to explain the mind-boggling irrationality that so often follows.

First comes the infatuation, leading to the initial betrayals. Then comes denial, with lies as credible as a preschooler's and dissociation sometimes strong enough to tempt a diagnosis of multiple personalities. Finally, when the secret life comes out into the open and its inevitable effects begin to be felt so that denial is not an adequate coping mechanism, dissonance steps in and self-delusion expands to encompass more and more of reality.

Oh yes indeed, that's a dandy recipe for happiness.

And sadly, even after the infatuation wears off (which it will), denial and dissonance are powerful enough forces that the fog may never clear. There are no guarantees here except one: failure to face oneself and one's responsibility for one's own actions will guarantee a miserable life.

Boy I sure had a lot to digest but it makes so much more sense to me now. Thank you. I'm sure she has had feelings for BF for quite awhile and when I wasn't able to either give her the feelings that she wanted or maintain those feelings that she wanted; she looked to BF. Also the transition of living with him was easy since he has been a "so-called" friend of the family for over 10 years, so she felt comfortable with him and felt that our children did not need to make to major of an adustment.

On the kids adjustment, she was wrong. I have been in a church group for divorced people and they are starting a counseling session for children in 2 weeks. I will be taking both of my kids to this and hope this will give them some comfort during this whole situation.

Originally when my WS wanted the divorce, she wanted me to stay quite so as not to start rumors at the place that my former BF and I work at. Now in retrospect, I think she was only worrying about his reputation as a nice person and didn't care about mine. She obviously is looking the other way on any of his lies and betrayals saying "I see the other side" that to me is the infactuation talking and denial on her part. She doesn't want to believe that this person can do no wrong. Unfortunately this will only end terribly and she will in time find out his true self. He can't keep hiding his true person behind the romance and infactuations forever. Soon the day-to-day daily grind of life will enter and then what will they have?

What will happen when they have their first fight? I can say honestly that they haven't grown a honest relationship together that will last long term. I also can say that I did not covet another man's wife or committ the adultary so at least I can look myself in the mirror each morning and say that to myself. My love for her was genuine not based on lies and deceit of others. I hope in time she will realize this. Right now I will take all of your excellent advices and concentrate on myself and hold our children dear to me and work the best way through this. Once again, this MB has been nothing but a life savior for me. Thanks again

She even went so far as telling our daughter that in time she would thank her for leaving me because you have to be happy first.
What are you doing about this? You need to be protecting your daughters!

Read with interest the dialog about infatuation, rationalization, altered states of mind...when I first confronted my H about his affair(s) I asked him how he could do this and then come home and act so "normal". He truly led a double life and led it very well.
He answered that the first couple of times he felt very guilty, but after that it was easy to do....
Just the answer I was looking for.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

FAA,
just some things you might want to think about.

are you missing your wife or are you missing the life you had with her?

are you hurt because she's gone, or because she cheated on you with your supposed best friend and left you for him? (a good reason to be hurt but in the end, if that's the only reason then all it is, is pride.)

if it was you that left her, would you still feel the pain? would her pain matter to you?

do you want her back or is the life that you had with her before that which you really want?

on the other hand it's obvious that she wasn't happy about something...but that doesn't mean it was everything! no matter what you did,you don't deserve the treatment that she's giving you. so quit doing mia copas and get up off the floor.

also understand that all of us, men and woman reach some point in our lives when we begin seeking answers to questions we never even asked ourselves before. i guess that it's at this time when we're most vulnerable...soooo, when along comes a snake (in your case your ex-best friend)all of a sudden she finds glittering new truth! so tell me...who is the sick joke really on?

now here's the thing. it sounds like you're being tested and if you feel that it's true then stand up and be counted. get off the floor and be the man God intends for you to be. a proud, decent H & father who refuses to bend under the weight you've been given to carry. behave with dignity and pride.

seek real and honest answers to questions you may never have asked yourself before. make a mature decision as to weather you really want your wife back...as apposed to just getting back the life you had together. work hard to be an even better person then you are. remember that plan A is about you! YOU! it's not an exercise in wife retrieval. it's about getting a wake up call in life...it's your opportuity to grow and become more and better then you were before.

what you're living through is a true nightmare but you can find light in all this darkness if you really seek it. so my advice would be that if you can't control the bad and end up having to live with it...be sure that you find the posative and at least take that from the experience.

good luck.
coach

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

The comments you made coach were pretty close to the truth. I am missing the life that my wife and I had, there was security and comfort in that life. However, I miss sharing those moments that only husbands and wives can share. I know that I did not deserve what happened to me and maybe early in the affair she might have regretted it; but now 5 months later its much easier being with the former BF than with me.

I am joining a divorce group with a local church and last night they gave me some good advice as all of you have on this MB. I can look at myself in the mirror and say that I didn't have the affair and I didn't covet my BF's wife or kids. I will hold my head up with dignity and honor because God does not want to see me laying down in defeat. I take "ownership" in things that I have done or not done enough in my marriage but none of what I haven't done justifies what W and BF have done to myself and our children.

With how they have begun their relationship it will only end in flames. Neither one has put God first in their lives and I will let God work in his way to bring both of them back to them. They made the concience decision to do this no matter how dilusional they think it's "right" or "meant to be" is a load of crap.

One day they will have this hit them and I pray for their soul's that they will turn to God and ask for forgiveness as I have. My faith is so much stronger with Him than I can ever imagine. I will constantly share these feelings with my children so they will also know that God loves them and will never leave them.

I get my kids for the weekend and I can't wait. They have been e-mailing me just to let me know that they love me and that means the world to me.

I guess I'll ask again, the question which for some reason you do not want to seem to address.

She even went so far as telling our daughter that in time she would thank her for leaving me because you have to be happy first.
What are you doing about this? How can you allow your daughter to be abused in this manner? You need to be protecting your daughters!

I want our children in my life because I can't even imagine the pain that they are feeling.
? I'm confused. First & foremost, I would think you want them in your life because they are your children.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

I just wanted to say that I do have both of my children half of the month according to my work schedule. My wife does not prohibit me in seeing them. I had a rather heated conversation on the phone with her last night about a lot of issues, one of them telling our daughter it's o.k. to leave daddy and live with someone else. She is still denying any problem and gets super defensive about this. I know that she loves the children and I know so does BF its just that the moral values that they are showing our children are confusing.

I talk to my daughter on things and when I get some explanations I bring these things to my wife. She says that she may be making things up to gain attention . I never knew my 8 year old to fabricate stories about what's happening and my wife denies it. I'm confused because my wife is adement about our daughter making things up, yet my wife was the one who lied about the affair.

I brought my daughter and son into a group counseling for divorced children and this is a 4 month program. I'm hoping to meet other parents their so that we can do more group therapy outside of the meetings to help our kids out. I hope this can be the first step to recovery for them.

To answer your question Chris, I don't know how I can seperate our children from their mother. They want to be with her and I know she loves them even while she is in this fog. I'm hoping with the group therapy and my love that we can all get through these tough times.

My wife does not prohibit me in seeing them.
How kind of her.

I know that she loves the children
Loving them does not mean she will do what's right/best for them. If it did, then she would not be having an affair and living with someone else.

I don't know how I can seperate our children from their mother.
I don't know how you could allow them to be separated from their father.

My point is this.
You are separated. The children will live with one parent or the other.
Why is it okay to live with the parent who is telling them they will thanks her later in life because she left you? Why is it okay to live with the parent who is showing the children marriage means NOTHING and it is okay to live with a man while married to another?

Do what's best for the children! If that means getting them out of an abusive situation (I believe it is) then DO IT!
If a divorce actually takes place, don't you want it to have as minimal an impact as possible?

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

i just wanted to interject a thought here. being an adultress does not equate to being a bad mother. it just doesn't. and please understand, i will not take a back seat to no one when it comes to my disaproval of what your wife is doing and has done. DESPICABLE is the word i think best describes her behavior.

however, and this is a big HOWEVER, just because she is "simple-stupid" on this one issue it does not equate to her being "simple-stupid" about everything.

let's all take a serious moment here and just give this matter a little thought...no matter how terrible her behavior has become as far as her marriage is concerned that does not change her status as the mother of your children and as such she is deserving of the respect that this position provides.

now if you should have evidnece of some kind of abuse..from either her or her boy toy...well that changes things. however, given that there is no such abuse then as far as the children are concerned, then i don't feel that they should be made a bargaining chip in this mess.

coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by coach3530:
<strong>i just wanted to interject a thought here. being an adultress does not equate to being a bad mother. it just doesn't.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I was a teenager, I went to a youth conference at a large midwestern church. Kids and speakers came there from all over the country. The youth pastor there served as the master of ceremonies, and as a speaker in his own right. He was an inspirational and impassioned speaker, and clearly the sort of role model a parent would want for his or her kids. He and his wife even adopted a baby born to a young woman who had gotten pregnant out of wedlock.

Years later it came out that this man had been sleeping with a number of the girls under his ministry in that church's youth group, and that the baby he and his wife adopted was (unbeknownst to his wife) his own illegitimate child.

He said a lot of good things. He did a lot of good things. He didn't take advantage of every girl in that youth group. So tell me: was he a good youth pastor?

A parent may say and do many good things for his or her child. But to desert a spouse without just cause - a violation every bit as horrific and devastating as murder or rape, in my opinion - and then to propound the idea that this was a good thing to do, for no other reason than "it made me happy", is to commit an evil which calls into question the significance of everything else that person has said and done. It presents an example and a lesson which cannot be balanced with other words and actions, and I am sick to death of our societal pretense that divorce is of little real import.

Jesus said "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble."

I never said being an adulteress equates to being a bad mother. But being a bad mother means being a bad mother!

now if you should have evidnece of some kind of abuse..from
See below...

She flaunts her love for him in front of me and the kids like this was supposed to happen.

The man she is with or former friend is an agnostic and so she does not practice any religion with our children when she has them. Prayers at bedtime and meals along with a little Bible study during the week where very important to us and our family and now she has forgone those things just to be with this person.

I had to take my kids back to her and her new boy friends apartment.

She even went so far as telling our daughter that in time she would thank her for leaving me because you have to be happy first.

I had a rather heated conversation on the phone with her last night about a lot of issues, one of them telling our daughter it's o.k. to leave daddy and live with someone else.

Divorce is divorce. It's not easy on anyone, least of all the innocent children. To tell them divorce is good for any reason, is not a good thing to do. Telling them a divorce is necessary is okay, IF it's because of adultery, addiction or abuse. Anything else is crapola.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

points of view regarding a adultress/mother's fitness to continue being a "good" mother are obviously going vary. but in fairness, shouldn't we agree that trying to apply generalities, (i.e. she is an adultress there fore an evil woman) to the kind of situations we deal with on this board is just not tenable? individuale situations, problems and people make generalizing unfair. more important it's not a realistic way to deal with problems.

and please, with all due respect, could we not confuse this very specific situation with scripture? could we not, all of us, agree that God's hand is on us all and while his design is sometimes beyond our comprehension, it doesn't make it any less his? i'm sorry but trying to interepret God's design with in the context of the scripture, just strikes me as being some what presumptous...maybe, just maybe we are not meant to understand all of God's will.

on a more practicle level, what the wife and mother under discussion here is involved in, is something that obviously cuts close to all our collective bones. it's an issue that creates great emotional anguish among many of us.

but really, so what if the poor silly woman tries to rationalize her situation by telling her children that she is entitled to her happiness and that in seeking it, she's not really committing a sin? can't we be understanding enough of the confusion in her mind to realize that this kind of logic cannot convince even the youngest person of it's correctness?

but even if she could convince her children that she is right...does anyone really think that being stupid qualifies as being abusive? come on...the woman is acting like a foggy headed moron not an evil moron? please...in this country we don't take children away from the mother's for being stupid.

coach

Hey coach,

I think you need to read/hear what others wrote & not simply what you think they wrote,

shouldn't we agree that trying to apply generalities, (i.e. she is an adultress there fore an evil woman)
No one here said that at all. I was not saying or applying that in these circumstances. And I never do. I don't believe that simply because she is an adulteress she is evil nor a bad parent.

But actions of the parent (either one) should dictate if the parent is showing good judgement in doing/telling the children certain things. Everyone makes a bad call now & then as a parent. But to do it continuously is wrong.

but even if she could convince her children that she is right...does
Children look to their parents to teach them almost everything. If they get scared/hurt, they go to their parents to "make it right." Now a divorce happens. The children know almost nothing of what is happening and have even less control over it. They only know their family is being destroyed and the parents show no concern for that. The parents don't give a squat over how it affects the children. "I want to be happy & I deserve to be happy!" the children get told. I do not care how it affects you. If you're hurting now, bummer. In a few years, you'll thank me! Now shut up & color!

To me, that's abuse!

In this country we don't take children away from the mother's for being stupid.
We don't? It sure happens all the time. And it should.

So a single mom on crack should have her children?

and please, with all due respect, could we not confuse this very specific situation with scripture? could we not, all of us, agree that God's hand is on us all and while his design is sometimes beyond our comprehension, it doesn't make it any less his? i'm sorry but trying to interepret God's design with in the context of the scripture, just strikes me as being some what presumptous...maybe, just maybe we are not meant to understand all of God's will.
???No one but you is talking anything about scripture.
I said to get the children out of an abusive situation.
But you're saying God is allowing this to happen and we (humans) should not interfere? As a father/mother you OWE it to God to get the children someplace safe and NOT in a situation where marriage vows are being flaunted and tossed in trash and told it's okay to do it.

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>