Actually, I said something about scripture: I quoted Luke 17:1-2 in my last post.

What I did not do is claim that infidelity makes someone an unfit parent or that it makes someone "an evil person". I like M. Scott Peck's definition of evil:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From The Road Less Traveled:
<strong>...Evil is laziness carried to its ultimate, extraordinary extreme. As I have defined it, love is the antithesis of laziness. Ordinary laziness is a passive failure to love. Some ordinarily lazy people may not lift a finger to extend themselves unless they are compelled to do so. Their being is a manifestation of nonlove; still, they are not evil. Truly evil people, on the other hand, actively rather than passively avoid extending themselves. They will take any action in their power to protect their own laziness, to preserve the integrity of their sick self. Rather than nurturing others, they will actually destroy others in this cause. If necessary, they will even kill to escape the pain of their own spiritual growth. As the integrity of their sick self is threatened by the spiritual health of those around them, they will seek by all manner of means to crush and demolish the spiritual health that may exist near them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Infidelity is a sin, a folly, a mistake, a misjudgement. Often it "happens" without premeditation, and precipitates a period of confusion. Dishonesty is used not only to hide the sin, but in an effort to protect loved ones from the effects of that sin.

When carried further, however, to the shameless breakup of the family and the destruction of the children's trust in everyone, it is evil. It doesn't even have to be conscious destruction. Peck says "They do this not with conscious malice but blindly, lacking awareness of their own evil - indeed, seeking to avoid any such awareness."

Does this mean we shouldn't be loving or understanding? Of course not. But let's call a spade a spade. A rose by any other name would still have its thorns.

Am I being presumptuous?

I have heard some pretty nauseating ideas propounded here on MB. Whatever we do, wherever we are, that's where God wants us to be right now? Pfaugh!! Politically correct, gee-I-really-don't-want-to-be-judgmental-or-hurt-anybody's-feelings pablum. If standing up for righteousness is being presumptuous, then by God, I'll be presumptuous! I don't pretend to understand "all of God's will". I don't pretend to understand how God works His will, and I'm very sure that He's a far sight cleverer than I am. But sin is sin regardless of whether and how God is able to bring good out of it.

As for a child's ability to reject the bad logic spewed by a parent-in-the-fog, I'll go you one better.

It's a da&ned good thing that I don't have kids, because I have a huge problem with this whole parental alienation thing. We're supposed to sit our children down and tell them that even though their parents can't stand to live together any more, "don't worry, both of us will always love you." Let's go ahead and try to fill those kids with false confidence, shall we?

Because for all we know, it's a lie. Just how stupid do we think these kids are? They know that if their mother can stop loving their father for no apparent reason, then their mother can stop loving them too. And if you can't trust your mother, then you can't trust anybody in this whole @&$*ed-up world. And when we try to quash this very legitimate connection, we are just showing them that we too are willing to deceive them, and we are training them to suppress their own awareness of the truth.

More often than not, the lessons these kids are learning will screw up their lives forever, or at least for decades to come - even if it takes decades for the effects to show themselves. And if that's not evil and abusive, then I don't know what is.

Sometimes being stupid really does qualify as abusive. You can kill a child with stupidity and carelessness, as far too many parents already have.

I appreciate all your comments about this issue. I know my wife's judgement may be clouded due to the affair, but I don't think she would intentionally put our children in harms way. The OM has known the children for at least 6 years and has been a big part in their lives. I do feel he loves them it's just that the way those two went about the affair and now subsequent divorce is hard.

My wife told my she hasn't loved me in years and would try to reach me and change. I on the other hand was caught up in too many of my personal things to see that she was crying out. Now do I think that she should have had the affair. NEVER. But I can at least now see the reasoning behind it, due to the fact that I wasn't meeting her emotional needs. Now when I recognize these things, she has now given herself to another and wont look back.

I have beaten myself up on this for months and has gotten me nowhere. I have to pick myself up off the floor and move on. She has the help of OM while I have the help of you good MB'RS and friends. One day, I hope, God will enter into her life and let her realize what she has done. Not only to me but our children. That isn't happening now because she is too much in "the fog" to clearly see what's happening.

I love her too much which she knows and still she will not give up on her new life. The feelings she has right now with OM have completely overshadowed anything I could say or do. So why try. Let God work himself into her life, like he has mine and maybe if it is his will she will come back. I must be strong for myself and our children. I deserve to be loved just as deeply as I loved her,nothing less.

I think GnomeDePlume summed it up very well.

IMO, anyone who participates in the destruction of a family and then flaunts the affair in front of the children, forcing the children to be exposed to an illicit relationship, is not acting in a responsible manner as a parent, and should not have primary or joint residential custody or legal custody, except in very limited circumstances (such as a nursing infant, or when the other parent is incarcerated).

I would very much question whether the OM in this case "loves" the children - had that been the case, he would not have participated in the destruction of the family.

Oops, double post.

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

I know my wife's judgement may be clouded due to the affair, but I don't think she would intentionally put our children in harms way.
That still doesn't mean "it's okay" for her to continue.

Drunk drivers don't intentionally go out to hit & kill others but it happens. Should we just shrug our shoulders and say, "it wasn't intentional so it's okay?"

I guess if you are think she is raising your children in a proper and moral way and doing what's best for the children, we can't change your mind.

My wife told my she hasn't loved me in years and would try to reach me and change. I on the other hand was caught up in too many of my personal things to see that she was crying out. Now do I think that she should have had the affair. NEVER. But I can at least now see the reasoning behind it, due to the fact that I wasn't meeting her emotional needs.
Almost ALL of us here have heard the same thing. Your situation is not much different than most of the others.

She didn't have an affair because you were not meeting her emotional needs. She had an affair because she failed to keep herself out of an affair.

I have beaten myself up on this for months and has gotten me nowhere. I have to pick myself up off the floor and move on.
Okay, gonna be a little blunt here.

Boo hoo. Now, what are you gonna do about your relationship?

I love her too much which she knows and still she will not give up on her new life. The feelings she has right now with OM have completely overshadowed anything I could say or do. So why try.
Because you are married. You got married for reasons that are still valid. You have children together. It is a fact that your wife is "confused/in the fog" and the actions you take NOW can help to make your marriage survive.

You only found out 4 months ago about the affair. This is less time than it takes for the average affair to die. Harley says 6 months for most. The hotter/faster an affair is going on, the quicker it will die.

You're wife is pushing everything so fast, she doesn't have time to think about what she is doing. When it ends up hitting her in the face (it will) you need to be the one there for her.

She has the help of OM
But he is not helping her work through all the feelings. She is simply covering them up because it "feels right" with om. After he leaves her, she will go through the floor.

I feel you need to do what's best for the children & do what you can to save your marriage (not just roll over and say "waaah"".
This means looking at your behaviors and how they affect relationships (learn MB principles and how to apply them.)

I'll quit ragging on you now. If you need/want some help or someone to get ticked off at, just ask. I'm here for ya'.

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

Tough Love is that right Chris? Don't worry about ragging on me. We are talking about a marriage with kids involved, one in which I dont want to see end. I will follow Plan A and see how things plan out. I am seeing her tomorrow morning so I will let you know how this one goes. I appreciate your bluntness it helps me snap out of my self pitty.