So, I’ve been off the board here for a long while, about nine months. Not even lurking- sorry, not much of a thanks to you all for saving my sanity, but I apologize.

I’m back just to tell you all there is light at the end of the tunnel, and it’s not a train. But this also comes with a cautionary tale attached.

For those of you who never heard my tale:

- I’m 40 and my ex-wife is 43. Married in ’93, two kids (8 and 4)
- Feb 2001, she drops the bomb on me, almost completely out of the blue. I knew she’d been depressed and unhappy for most of that winter, but the first time she talked about it to me was when she said she wanted to move out.
- Feb 2001-Aug 2001, we do counseling, Retrouvaille, endless hours of relationship talks, but nothing would shake her conviction that she had lost her soul, cared about me but had no passion for me, and her only choice was to move out, which she did on August 4, 2001.
- surprise! about this time I find out she's having a one-sided emotional affair (in high school, we called it a "crush"). She writes a letter to the guy asking him to move in with her. To date, he hasn't.
- That summer, we negotiated 50/50 custody and looked over and agreed on a preliminary Marital Termination Agreement. We also began a strange separation in which we would regularly, at least six days/week, see each other, put kids to bed together at her house or mine, occasionally get together for “family” functions, but never get together alone. The closest we get to OR talk in this time is her telling me not to think of us as “a couple,” that I “choke the life out of her,” that she “can’t be herself” around me. You can see why I didn’t want to get into OR with her...
- February 2002, she hands me the draft of our Marital Termination Agreement, which she files in April, and is final in September 2002. From the time we first negotiated it in the summer of 2001 to the time it’s filed, it undergoes only the slightest revision, mostly for typos.

People often ask on this board “will Marriage Building work?” by which I assume they mean “will it save my marriage?” I’m here to tell you nothing (counseling, Marriage Encounter, screaming fights, whatever) can save a marriage unless both parties want it to be saved- but Marriage Builders helped me this way: it saved my sanity.

When my ex dropped the bomb, I was completely sucked into her drama. It took months just to get back to seeing our marriage through my eyes instead of her depressed eyes. The information I received here was a huge part of that. Once I started thinking for myself again, and saw that whatever problems we had in our marriage, they were not how she described them, and they were not entirely of my making. I started remembering that marriage was 50/50 in all things. The less I pursued her, the “darker” I went, the more she pursued.

However: in my case, because my ex is depressed and refuses to acknowledge, let alone deal with it, because she won’t attend counseling that might challenge her, and because she (to be frank) thinks she’s always right, by the end of 2001, I was done caring whether she came back or not. I could tell, and was later proven right, that if she came back, it would be with a list of ways I had to change and nothing about her behaviors or beliefs. The marriage was finished, and all that was left was the paperwork.

But I feel happier and more content than I ever would have without this board and what I learned here. I know I did everything I could to save the marriage and knew it was over.

But now, here’s the cautionary tale. Soon (and according to many, too soon) after I hit that point, I started dating, and became quite serious about a longtime friend. It was after the papers were handed to me, but well before the divorce was final. Some call that immoral- I don’t; I don’t think that paperwork is sacred. When my (then soon-to-be) ex found out, she commenced a roller coaster ride far worse than any she took us on during her move-out. Without a trace of irony, she has accused me of abandoning her, of being a hypocrite, of tearing apart our family. She has said she was ready to begin again with me (though she never mentioned that before). None of her ranting would affect me in the least, and I think she can tell that, because she’s taken up the pattern of threatening to put the kids in the middle of our dispute.

Of course, she doesn’t state it that way. But she says “we have to be totally honest with the kids, we have to tell them that you’ve hurt me this way, it would be so easy for me to sabotage their opinion of you...” The only regret I have about starting a new relationship before the divorce was final is that I’ve handed her this ammunition. I’ve put myself in a minefield of my ex’s devising, in which each of her unresolved issues is another mine, and which threatens to blow up my children. So far, they’re doing well; my ex has restrained herself (perhaps underneath her madness she realizes she would mainly be hurting them, not me, with that particular weapon. Perhaps she just doesn’t want to use the only weapon she has left. I don’t know). But I can’t count on that, and have to be watchful for the results of her misbehaviors.

So, that’s the cautionary part of my tale: your mid-life-crisis-bound spouse or ex-spouse will continue to blame you for relationship problems; nothing will be his or her responsibility (she moved out, and filed for divorce, but I abandoned her). Maybe my ex will snap out of this MLC someday, but I’m not holding my breath. I am remembering that her issues are hers, not mine, they are not about me. Keep that in mind, I think, and you’ll be on the path to mental health.

Love to all, comments always welcome,
dabigtrain

------
* Known her 12 years, married 9, divorced 1/2
* She's depressed and having a MLC, but insists she isn't.
* Separated 8/4/01.
* See her nearly every day.
* Not waiting to see if she'll ever figure it out.

Some people might get some pleasure out of hate;
Me, I've enough already on my plate.
- Paul Weller, "Going Underground"

Join the club. . . . either she has some chemical imbalances due to menopause or peri menopause that is causing the depression, or she has a hereditary trait that causes this, or she has late life narcissism, or this is wha she learned from her family of origin. My X sorta falls into these categories, where all of a sudden, you are to blame, and bang. . . . everything you assumed is wrong.

however, realize its not you, and that there is life after 40, and divorce, but do not rush into it, etc

Hi DaBigTrain - long time no see! No wonder you haven't been around - I'd not be either after what you went thru. Geez your EX sounds like the walking CLONE IN THE FLESH of my ex-wife I mean this is scarey! Be glad you are rid of her!
May the Lord bless you in the rest of your life.
Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>...chemical imbalances ....peri menopause ... hereditary trait ... late life narcissism ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Signs of all of these abound. And thank you for the BPD link in your sig- I read that article, and a lot of it makes sense to me. It especially applies to her accusations of abandonment; her parents' marriage broke up when she was eight, and her mother went into a depression that must have felt like abandonment.

Anyway, as always, MB gives me more to think about and chew on. Thank you for your reply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SaURoNaNdGaLAdRIeL:
<strong>Geez your EX sounds like the walking CLONE IN THE FLESH of my ex-wife I mean this is scarey! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the great things MB did for me was let me hear my ex-wife's words coming out of other people's mouths. This is an amazingly useful resource of stories and experiences; I could almost have predicted her behaviour over the last nine months from the stories I read in the summer of 2001. I have never felt more alone that I did in early 2001, when I hid my "shameful secret" (my wife's unhappiness); finding this place, and others like it, let me know how un-alone I was.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be glad you are rid of her!
May the Lord bless you in the rest of your life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with kids, you're never "rid" of your ex, of course, but her issues are no longer mine, and the murky pondwater of her depression no longer fills my home. This is a blessing.

Thanks for your reply,
dabigtrain

No, but she is repeating her learned lessons of the past, and your kids are learning lessons from her past to repeat all over again. . .

somehow you need to break the learning cycle. . .

how are you going to do this. . . . .

see how insidious FOO traits are?

wiftty

Why would you choose to do anything, such as dating while still married, that you would be ashamed, embarrassed, or in anyway reluctant to have your children know about? If there is nothing wrong with it, then why would you object to your wife telling them about it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>Why would you choose to do anything, such as dating while still married, that you would be ashamed, embarrassed, or in anyway reluctant to have your children know about? If there is nothing wrong with it, then why would you object to your wife telling them about it?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was not ashamed to tell my children about my girlfriend. I wanted to wait (and did wait) until the relationship was more serious and I was more confident that it would last and they wouldn't have to experience another loss.

But that was not the heart of the matter between my (then just barely) wife and me. What I objected to was her plan to share her pain with the children, in a manner that would inevitably put them in the middle of our dispute: "Dad has hurt me." When she moved out, when she filed for divorce, I shared none of my pain with them- they don't deserve that. My ex wanted to hurt me by way of them, and I would have none of it.

I'm a veteran here- I realize that most MBers believe the BS should keep to his/her vows even as the WS does not. I realize I'm in the minority on this- but I believe that when your WS states as clearly as mine did that the marriage is over, it's over.

Thanks for your reply,
dabigtrain

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: dabigtrain ]</small>

dbt,

your my kind of guy. . . .

when my X said that she wanted out, and her reasons were because I was too rich and independent, and we must divorce because her parents should have divorced, her reasons were not about me or ENs. . . . and these reasons will not change because i can't change them. . .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However: in my case, because my ex is depressed and refuses to acknowledge, let alone deal with it, because she won’t attend counseling that might challenge her, and because she (to be frank) thinks she’s always right, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, she is my XW's twin sister!! and the weirdness of the relationship between announcement and divorce, is all kind of backwards and illogical to me. actually if you go back and look in her FOO, i suspect that you will find some narcissism, and in these cases, i believe it brought on through menopausal, perimenopausal hormone changes, partly learned and partly genetic, and there are lots of similarities with BPD, NPD and a few others where there are mostly similar characteristics and then a couple of major differences in how the disorder manifests itself, such as inward or outward. . .

. . your XW that manipulates with sympathy, who tries to make alliances across generations, whose values are feelings for the moment, without regard to what the end result will be. . . yeah, its one of those disorders, plain and simple. . .

i suspect your XW is at some sort of similar age point as her parents were when one of them lost their mind, its either the repetition of a learned shock, or she was hereditarily at risk for losing her mind.

The reason that i focus on the disorder with the genetics, is that i believe that with the genetics, it puts my kid's future marriages and families at risk. . . and I haven't yet decided when, but when they announces that they are going to get married, i am going to have a serious discussion about the high probability of future events with both them and their fiancees. . .

wiftty

<small>[ February 23, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
The reason that i focus on the disorder with the genetics, is that i believe that with the genetics, it puts my kid's future marriages and families at risk. . . and I haven't yet decided when, but when they announces that they are going to get married, i am going to have a serious discussion about the high probability of future events with both them and their fiancees. . .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nature? Nurture? Nature? Nurture? The eternal question. I've been thinking a lot about that, and FOO issues. Her fouled-up FOO (Snafued FOO?) undoubtedly has affected her. And now I'm looking at my children's fouled-up FOO, wondering how I can break that cycle. Like you, I realize at some point, when they're adults, I'm going to have to have some serious discussions with them about marriage.

But before that, I'm going to have to live in a happier marriage. I'm thinking of the people I know who have happy second marriages- I think the best way to teach my son and daughter what a healthy marriage is about is to live in one and let them see it over a period of years.

My GF's parents divorced when she was in her 20's. Her mother re-married a couple of years ago, and my GF says of her "this is what my mom looks like when she's happy. I don't remember seeing that a lot when I was growing up."

snafoo?

I am trying to teach my kids the harley methods from right as soon as i found this. . .

however, its very hard when you gt them behaving well, and then they return to a dysfunctional environment. . . or the dysfunctional spouse plays mind games with them to "prove" she is the better parent, by being their friend and not providing any boundaries.

wiftty