Please, I desperately need help here, and without going into too much detail, I will be as brief as possible and to the point; <BR>My husband of four years and I had a very trying and difficult summer last year, of one instance where I humiliated him and slapped him in the face in front of his family when we were visiting; There were several other bad instances as well, but at the end of the summer I did everything I could to make it up to him , and every time I asked him if he had forgiven me, he always answered "yes". (there was never an affair)<BR>Around thanksgiving weekend, the fuel again hit the fire when I simply asked him if I could attend his family function with him, since my name was also on the invitation; <BR>Instead of him being honest with me then and there, and state how hurt he was over the incident in the summer and didn't want me to go with him, he avoided that and made insulting remarks about my dressing, ect., anything else but the truth. Of course I did not understand because I truly believed we had made up already. I asked him again that time why he didn't want me to go, and his anger hit a point where he totally lost control, and everything in the living room went flying, and then hid behind the hall door and would not let me in; Because my two year old was sleeping on the other side, I panicked and called the police, when I repeatedly begged him to open and he wouldnt.<BR>To make a long story short, I was totally freaking out because I at that time did not understand why he lost it so quickly, and had certain conditions placed, the main one being that he stay away until he has calmed down and we resolved what happened and why.<BR>From thanksgiving until mid november, he stayed away under police order, and during that time I found out what had triggered his anger- events from last summer that I truly believed he had forgiven me for.<BR>I had the conditions dropped so he could return home to our child and myself, and we are trying to come to terms with that weekend; However, I feel that this is doomed because he has told me he has not done anything wrong that night, never hurt our child or myself, only flung the furniture around in an angry fit that was brought on by me; Second, he believes that I was out to get him, to betray him, to keep him from his child by phoning the police, even though I told him it was because I was panicking; Third, he states I never loved him or our child, or I never would have asked them to keep him away temporarily; Fourth, this one is a new one- he is not stating that I phoned the police in an attempt to keep him from going to his function that weekend- never mind the report from the police stating the damage they walked into that night, this was all my doing; I don't know what to do anymore, I feel I am about to have a breakdown; He has been back almost two months, and when I make every attempt to reconcile, be it with talking, or attempts to make love , he looks at me with disgust and says he has been damaged by everything that has happened, and when he was taken away, and I should be ashamed for allowing this, and how any man would have kept walking a long time ago. Please don't forget at thanksgiving I was under the impression that I was forgiven from last summer, he had even told me many times, and that he tore the place apart so bad that I felt terrified enough to call the police; But, now, that is my fault, too...<BR>I feel that I have nothing left in me for this marriage, affection is nil, he looks at me like a stranger, and what is worse, that he has no feelings for me anymore...<BR>How do I stop blaming myself for this, for his actions that night, and, is this abuse on his part? Is this man really aware of what he is doing to me or has he been so devastated that he is just not thinking right?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAXI_321:<BR><B>Please, I desperately need help here, and without going into too much detail, I will be as brief as possible and to the point; <BR>My husband of four years and I had a very trying and difficult summer last year, of one instance where I humiliated him and slapped him in the face in front of his family when we were visiting; ... <P>... I asked him again that time why he didn't want me to go, and his anger hit a point where he totally lost control, and everything in the living room went flying, and then hid behind the hall door and would not let me in; Because my two year old was sleeping on the other side, I panicked and called the police, when I repeatedly begged him to open and he wouldnt.</B><P>Scary stuff - you guys have problems with your anger and it will only get worse if you don't get some professional counseling immediately. Please do it for your child's sake. (I was in the same kinds of situation with my ex-H and believe me, it will get worse if you don't get some help.)<P><B>To make a long story short, I was totally freaking out because I at that time did not understand why he lost it so quickly, and had certain conditions placed, the main one being that he stay away until he has calmed down and we resolved what happened and why.</B><P>I don't think that your decision to have him stay away under police order necessarily is due to your freaking out. When your spouse/partner starts abusively throwing furniture and stuff around, and the police get involved, you HAVE to think about your and your child's safety. Those kinds of situations can escalate violently and someone can get hurt/killed. <P><B>From thanksgiving until mid november, he stayed away under police order, and during that time I found out what had triggered his anger- events from last summer that I truly believed he had forgiven me for.<BR>I had the conditions dropped so he could return home to our child and myself, and we are trying to come to terms with that weekend; However, I feel that this is doomed because he has told me he has not done anything wrong that night, never hurt our child or myself, only flung the furniture around in an angry fit that was brought on by me;...</B><P>I still say you were right to get legal intervention for your own safety. You're no dummy - and your H does not have the right, regardless of what you did to him in the past, to go destroying your home the way he did. The "angry fit" was *not* brought about by you, as much as it was brought about by his own lack of self-control. <P><B> Second, he believes that I was out to get him, to betray him, to keep him from his child by phoning the police, even though I told him it was because I was panicking; ... </B><P>Maxi, this sounds eerily like my own situation with my ex-H several years ago. Everything violent that he did to me was justifiable in his mind, because I "was out to get him" and "didn't love him." But nothing I did was ever right, and he would take it personally and sometimes violently. FYI, my ex-H went on to several more violent relationships in which furniture and household goods were destroyed, children were frightened, and police were called. He was never to blame in his own mind -- the women he was with were all "crazy" and I think he liked getting involved in the drama -- it felt like home and love to him.<P><B>Third, he states I never loved him or our child, or I never would have asked them to keep him away temporarily;</B><P>That's so unfair to you. What were you supposed to do, I wonder? How do you show "love" to an abusive spouse on the rampage when you fear being physically attacked yourself? <BR> <BR><B>Fourth, this one is a new one- he is not stating that I phoned the police in an attempt to keep him from going to his function that weekend- never mind the report from the police stating the damage they walked into that night, this was all my doing; I don't know what to do anymore, I feel I am about to have a breakdown; He has been back almost two months, and when I make every attempt to reconcile, be it with talking, or attempts to make love , he looks at me with disgust and says he has been damaged by everything that has happened, and when he was taken away, and I should be ashamed for allowing this, and how any man would have kept walking a long time ago. Please don't forget at thanksgiving I was under the impression that I was forgiven from last summer, he had even told me many times, and that he tore the place apart so bad that I felt terrified enough to call the police; But, now, that is my fault, too...<BR>I feel that I have nothing left in me for this marriage, affection is nil, he looks at me like a stranger, and what is worse, that he has no feelings for me anymore...<BR>How do I stop blaming myself for this, for his actions that night, and, is this abuse on his part? Is this man really aware of what he is doing to me or has he been so devastated that he is just not thinking right?</B><P>I feel so badly for you and hope you are doing all right. Your H is *very* abusive to you, and whether he is "devastated" by your past is no excuse whatsoever. He needs help, and you need help. The safety of you and your child is the first priority. Real love shouldn't put your safety and well-being second to keeping your H happy. Your H should not be putting you in the position to equate love with putting up with his abuse. <P>You guys have to refrain from the physical and verbal abuse of each other immediately.<P>Please, post again and let us know how you are doing.<p>[This message has been edited by CinDrLa (edited January 12, 2001).]

To CinDrLa:<P>Thanks so much for caring enough to reply;<BR>How long were you married to your ex, and how long ago did the episodes occur?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAXI_321:<BR><B>To CinDrLa:<P>Thanks so much for caring enough to reply;<BR>How long were you married to your ex, and how long ago did the episodes occur?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My ex-H and I married in 1985 - We were married for 7 1/2 years (when we got married, I was 20, he was 22, both from "broken families", both oldest children desperate to get out of the poverty and sadness in our families). Thinking back on it, he was often physically pushing me around (in bed, if I wouldn't "give him any" he would roughly shove me...or his famous "Hip Checks" where he would suddenly bump up against me, knocking me over - he did this in a department store once, in front of our daughter, because I was taking too much time looking at something).<P>I should mention he was involved in Marine Corps boxing competitions before I met him and was very, very strong. I used to think, "that's just the way he is." I never saw it as abuse until about six years after we got married, when he raped me one night--I had had gynecological surgery and was sexually out of commission for a couple of weeks, and he couldn't take it any more and decided to force the issue. The marriage quickly unraveled after that, and he frequently hit me or threatened to. The marriage ended when he confessed to wanting to have a PA with his coworker, and that he felt entitled to do so - I then asked him to leave. Funny, I put up with quite a lot of anger and physical stuff over the 7 1/2 years we were married, but it was the prospect of his infidelity that undid me.<P>He was always verbally nasty and critical to me from day one. Again, I see this only in hindsight, because I'm in a loving marriage now and can't imagine my curent H treating me that way. But, there was physical abuse in my home when I was growing up and I think I just assumed it was to be expected.<P>I wasn't perfect - I used to tease him about his shortcomings, and had two flagrant EA's or "crushes" on coworkers that I really made no effort to hide (and never saw as being "wrong" - believe me, I regret that now!). I hit him a few times, too (thankfully he never hit me back) when I was good and mad. Wow, I can't even imagine behaving that way now with my new husband.<P>I hope things are going better for you. The MB principles are very helpful, I think, but you still have to put your safety first if things turn violent again. Take care.

Maxi,<P>I read you post and came away with a different feeling than did the previous poster. I cannot tell you how you should have felt when your H tore up the house. I can understand his feelings though. I have never laid a hand on my W and I never will. <P>But I have gotten angry and actually shattered a door once by slamming it so hard. Did I abuse her by doing this? I don't think so.<P>Now what I have to ask you is quite simple. Do you want to be married to your H, who apparently has had one episode of this behavior in your marriage and he didn't hurt or threaten either you or your child?<P>It seems he is staying out of a desire to avoid divorcing you and breaking up the family.<P>You have physically assualted him on several occasions. You have publically humiliated him before his family and you have by filing the restraining order placed into public record the indication that he is a violent man (the implication but not the fact that he was violent to you). In short, you have showed far less restraint in dealing with him than he has with you.<P>So I have to ask another simple question. What have you done to indicate to your H that you are a changed woman? Have you gone to any counseling for your physical outbursts? Have you gone to any counseling for your desire to publically humiliate him?<P>If not, then why would he want to work on the marriage? Yes, he is probably blowing out of proportion your role in his breaking up the furniture, but you went the extra step to have him removed from the home. You cannot undo that fact.<P>So finally, I must ask you have you really taken responsibility for your behavior? I don't think so from what you have posted so far. No counseling, no apparent apologies to his family, and no noticable changes in your approach to H that would make him think he was in a safe environment.<P>Finally I would like to suggest, that his "forgiving" doesn't mean that other events may not trigger his fears of your behavior. <P>So please take a few moments. Think about this from his point of view. Would you truely and honestly feel comfortable that you won't assault him again? If you do why? <P>If I am off base here I am sorry, and post more information so that we can be of more help.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

TO JL<P>DEAR JL,<P>Thank you so, so very much for your reply; I have not taken insult to it in the least, and your honesty means so much, especially from a man's point of view;;<P>As a matter of fact, I have spoken to somebody related to this matter; It is so true; He was still wrong to do what he did that night, but when I think of where it came from, a lot of it was my doing also;; I have found out that my husband internalizes his feelings, and last summer had really gotten to him;; Granted, we should have discussed it long before thanksgiving, but I guess he honestly did not know how to talk to me anymore, and, if I hadn't humuliated him last summer back home, I truly believe this episode on thanksgiving would not have happened; After our blowup last summer in front of his family, I remember the pain in his eyes, and, even though we carried on from there, he never did seem the same; Just very sad, and almost depressed;; There was no excuse for what happened last summer, it was my fault then, and he went nuts on thanksgiving because he did not know how to deal with our issues.<P>We both have done a lot of talking since I first posted, and I myself have dealt with a lot of personal issues, mainly due to my insecurities and how they make me act when I am in an unfamiliar environment;; This is what happened last July- I was nervous, uncomfortable about meeting the whole gang again, because I myself was never really close to my family (my doing) and drank a bit too much, and acted like a total *******;; <BR>This man comes from a small town, is very proud, and he did not live that night down for a very long time;; Small wonder he never seemed the same after that.<P>Anyhow, I have been talking to somebody, am dealing with my own personal issues, and am coming out of this very strong, confident, and the nicest part, talking to my husband with respect and love, something I haven't done in a long time.. He has noticed this because he has said so, and for the first time in 3 months I see him smiling again, with a bit of hope for our relationship;<BR>I hope this works out for us.<BR>God bless you too, and thanks.

Maxi,<P>I am glad you are getting some help. I also glad that you and your H are starting to get along again.<P>I would like to point out something though. Most men internalize their feeling. But that is especially so with feelings that lead to physical violence. It is what we do best (physical response) and what we are allowed to do least. When you physically attacked your H, I will bet his natural instinct was to strike back. But he knew he could not, so he had to internalized it.<P>When you pushed his buttons over Thanksgiving, he gave vent to those internalized physical responses, not by attacking you but attacking an inanimate object. Many men do that. Punching bags, running, just banging things are manifestations of letting out what we have to internalize.<P>Even sports has as its motivation a way for men to get this out of their system. That is why they started boys sports programs in school. To cut down on the number fights and other physical violence. Especially, sports that allow hitting something, kicking something, throwing something. <P>Very few women ever know the pure "joy" of just pounding something so hard there is nothing left in you.<P>So while you think there may have been another way for your H to have handled last summer, it is not that easy. Partly because if he tried to explain to you what he felt that day, you would not have understood and that would be even more infuriating. <P>Now you have seen first hand what he can and has to put away inside. Don't tap into it again. I have a single piece of advice for you. Never, never again attack your H with physical force. You really have no idea what you are dealing with. <P>Just as men learn from each other and women to not talk/joke with women about many things because they, the men, know they are out of their league , you are out of your league in the world of physical violence. You really and truely are.<P>I do hope things continue to improve at your house. I also hope that you pay some attention to what I have said. I am not kidding you in this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

TO JL:<P>Wow, I really am impressed; Your advice has gotten me thinking, and, I swear I had no idea about the things you were pointing out; I really think you have to step backwards and see what you are doing in order to make a positive change;<BR>This is what I have done; because my husband is starting to see that, along with the fact that he realizes he can talk to me without me resorting to a rude, defensive remark, is starting to make a difference. Who knows, we may end up being closer over this.<BR>One other question to you, please say what you think- regardless of thanksgiving weekend, do all the other incidents constitute abuse toward my husband on my part? Just wondering.<P>Thanks again,<P>MAXI

Maxi,<P>You asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>do all the other incidents<BR>constitute abuse toward my husband on my part? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know the answer to your question. It depends on what you consider abuse. Certainly slapping him was physical abuse. It was abusive in my mind for a simple reason, he could not hit you back.<P>You see I don't see a fight between to guys as being abusive. It may be wrong, but they are capable of defending themselves, so it isn't abuse.<P>If you take the term "abuse" to mean acting out against your spouse where the spouse cannot defend themselves, then even verbal attacks could be considered abuse. But a man and a woman shouting at each other isn't abusive. Noisy yes , stupid yes, ineffective yes, but abusive depends on your definition.<P>Do you see where I am drawing the line? <P>So lets say last summer, your H is at home with friends and family. In their circle of family or friends shouting at or arguing in public is really not accepted. You start arguing with him. He really doesn't want to respond in kind, your persist because you know he cannot argue in front of friends and family or he will be disgraced.<P>That might be considered verbal abuse.<P>However, lets take the same situation but in his circle of friends and family, arguing and shouting is very normal. You start arguing with him, he knows he can respond in kind, but doesn't. Is he being abused?<P>I don't know what has happened between you and H. Your description of things is very brief and too lacking in details to make any assessment. So it is left for you to answer your own question.<P>However, I do know him breaking furniture isn't abusive. It maybe: immature, financially dumb, far too noisy, it may even be scary to you, but it is not abusive.<P>I know something else as well, whether or not you consider your behavior abuse, rude remarks, defensive remarks, unflattering remarks, hurtful remarks, or just plain offensive remarks will kill your marriage faster than any judge can end it with a divorce.<P>This whole site is predicated on the idea that "Love Busters" kill marriages. They don't even need to be said in anger. Everytime you take a nick out of his hide, with one of your well crafted remarks, you lose a piece of him. You just whittle him down mentally and emotionally.<P>So I am glad you are taking a new look at yourself. I think the fact that he is responding to your new approach to dealing with him says that you are on the right track. I would like to suggest that you read the book His Needs Her Needs by Harley. <P>In it you will get a much better idea about love busters. If you go to NSR's general welcome post in the "Just Found Out" section you can find bookmarked many of the articles on the idea of love busters. I would recommend that you read these articles.<P>You are making good progress MAXI, keep it up.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

TO JL<BR>DEAR JL:<P>I really cannot express enough to you what your replies on this post have done for me, and I am not exagerrating on this fact;;<BR>You have got to be a therapist, and, if you are not, you should seriously consider the profession, because you have a way of speaking, and your words make people listen;;<BR>I am listening hard;;;<P>Thank you ever so much,<BR>God bless you, I will keep you posted..<P>MAXI.