Jacky,

I can't believe that she had the guts to send a letter of that nature, I wonder does H know she sent it?

I love Ginny's advice, it works!!! Anytime I have to deal with xH I am sweet as pie. He is the one that looks bad if he doesn't come back in kind!!!

I am on a totally different page with the OW/new wife. xH has been married since Dec 9th and my kids haven't met their new stepmother. He has been here twice to visit. OD without my knowledge sent her a christmas present which was not acknowledged by this woman til OD called to talk with her dad and she answered the phone, then she said by the way thanks for the gift. So sad, but my kids have the number of their dad and his new wife, I do wonder why it is they haven't met her!!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow, thanks for the wonderful support for my latest issue. I have also had good advice from email friends and a couple of friends in my life here, too.

By far the most common response is to tell her 'where to go' as we say here, and I would sorely loveeeeeeeeee to do that. And Ginny, I admire you for how you were able to handle your OW, but that path is not for me. I do not want anything to do with her and I will never thank her for looking after my kids on weekends, since some of the fault lies with HER that they are in that situation. If I ever have anything to do with her, I will be keeping it to the minimum, for self-protection, and that is just the way I am. And my X knows this, for I had a very bad situation with someone who really upset me when we were married....I took myself out of the situation, which is what I will do with her.

I had decided that I would not reply to her in any way, because I can see how she twisted the Christmas fiasco and the whole affair thing to suit herself, so I am not going to give her any more ammunition. But if I want to vent at my X, I will, and she will NOT tell me I can't. HE can ask me, and I will consider it, but for her, I am not lifting a pinky.

Here are some observations I have after reading carefully between the lines:

* She is very insecure....now why is that I wonder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Well, let's see, she is with a man who left his FAMILY for her....can it be she is a teeny bit worried that he can easily walk out on her because there are no children? Can it be that my venting had an effect on X, and she doesn't like me to have ANY effect on 'her man'?

* She is extremely manipulative, look how she turns things around to suit herself

* She is in denial - my X was seeing her a WEEK after leaving, I know this for a fact, and so it goes to show something was in the wind before he left.....so she WAS a contributing factor, like it or not

* She does not understand kids....they loved their dad all the way up to Christmas, and lost it with him when he would NOT put them first

* She thinks that although I do not know her story, I in fact do....heard it from a mutual friend who she spilled the beans to, so I know that with compromise, TWO of her marriages could have been saved

* She thinks she can actually tell ME what to do

* She may not have told X she sent that letter....

Why the last point? Well, it was written and sent during the working day, and while under a thin disguise of trying to get communication going, it is really a vent at ME. If I were my X I would not have allowed her to do this, because it could get me to tell her MY side of the story, bits of which she doesn't know (ie: He cheated on me before we married, unprotected sex in all cases, he hit me, he stayed out all night long on many occasions, he lied and lied and lied, and the BIGGIE....when they split up last year, who was the first person he told? ME. ANd another BIGGIE, I wonder if she knows that he hasn't shared the news of their engagement with his family yet....WHY not? I would be worried about that if I were her.)

Now all of that stuff has the potential to blow the roof off their little love shack, and knowing my conflict avoiding X, he would not be okaying her letter to me, because it is virtually giving me permission to spill the beans on him if I feel angry enough.

So........ with that in mind, I forwarded her letter to him at work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , and just wrote at the top "If my emails to you need a reply, please answer them yourself." Now, I would imagine that she cannot use that statement against me, but then she is very crafty, so who knows?

Now, here is my reply to her, the one I would LIKE to send.....replied to her letter as I read:

Clicketty Clack,
[My replies are in these brackets]

Up until now I have steered clear of whatever was going on between you and B and the kids, largely because I wanted to do the right thing and give you guys time to work things through so that we can all move forward. [Oh, so when you started dating him a week after he left, that was you staying OUT of it?]Also because I felt that it was none of my business at the time. [And it still isn't]It seems from this last letter that you are still very angry about a number of things and intend to remain that way for an indeterminate period of time. [If I am angry, that is my problem with my X, not YOURS, so back off doll]That is of course, your choice, until you decide to make a different one.[Yes, it is]

There are a few things I would like to address and if you are wondering why I am actually writing to you now, it's because the time has come to change the way we relate to each other. [Hmmm, why is that, are you worried that I am having some influence on X?]At the moment we do not relate at all and I have never been given the opportunity to talk to you. [Get real, you and I NEVER even tried]Even though I am very upset about the verbal abuse that you are flinging B's way, I will endeavour to keep this letter calm and reasonable because I believe it's the only way to resolve this issue. [It is none of your business, when we are venting about the kids. You have NO idea, since you are not a parent...and abuse? If he needs to know the truth of the situation I will tell him......oh, and HIS verbal abuse is far stronger than what I wrote, believe me]

I am not sure what the object of your letter to B was, but I am pretty sure about the state of mind present when you wrote it. [Oh, you can read minds now?] We all do the best we can under some very strenuous circumstances, you, B and I.[No, YOU just sat on your fat tushy, stealing the kids' dad away, YOU never had it hard, not at all] None of this has been easy on ANYBODY! [Except you, the immoral whore that you are]B and I constantly mull over how we can do things in the best possible way to limit any damage to the kids, but it seems that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. [You are right, you are damned, but it is a greater power than I who made that judgement]The whole December holiday was a disaster, no matter how hard we tried to accommodate everybody as best we could. [News to me that you tried to accomodate my wishes]B and I tried our very best to respect your space, considering the distances and logistics of the whole situation. [Now this is out and out BS Clicketty and you KNOW it] You retaliated by having a meltdown IN FRONT OF THE KIDS, which had a direct affect on how the rest of the holiday was going to go. [Um.....well we could all point fingers, but before you guys got here the kids were very negative about the whole idea, and don't you DARE try to pin their reactions on ME]After that outburst the kids would certainly feel uncomfortable about going anywhere where I was included, because that would mean that they were betraying you. You made that quite clear through your behaviour. [ Did I not say in my letter to you NOT to come here because I was afraid of that VERY thing happening????? And yet you PUSHED the issue and did it anyway, because YOU wanted to show me who was 'in charge'.....so, let's see, who manipulated THAT little incident?]What do you think the impact was on them to see and hear that? Of course they are going to hate him, their mommy does! And, when they see you hurt, they get anxious and angry. [remember YOU set it up to happen that way. I did my BEST to make it clear that I was afraid that would happen BEFORE you came, but you did it anyway.]So you might want to think about what you have brought to this situation thus far. This was not all set up by B. [No, YOU helped]He has been bending over backwards to try and keep everyone happy to the best of his ability. Nobody can do more than their best.[If this is his BEST, I would hate to see his worst <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

As for the fact that we are getting married, he HAD to tell them. It was the responsible and conscientious thing to do. What would have happened if they heard it from his parents or from an aunt? Would that have been better? [I have no problem with him being honest with them, good for him....but he MUST realise the impact it has on them, which was the POINT of my letter to HIM, would you not agree?]

As for the fact that I have been married THREE times.... firstly you don't know me, what the circumstances were or who I was married to. You don't know whether I tried to save any of them, or why they broke down.... So keep your judgements to yourself until you have more information at least! [I know a LOT more than you THINK I do, girl, wanna get me started?]

This letter heralds the end of how things were.[Sorry, no it doesn't] You do not have permission to vent your spleen every few months and abuse us by e-mail or any other medium. [YOU do not have permission to tell ME what to do....and where was it 'us'?]We have the right to be respected as much as you feel you do.[NO, you EARN respect, and somehow I don't think that is the case with you two]

I am sorry things didn't work out for you {BS BS BS BS BS] and B, but that wasn't my fault, no matter what you believe. [Self serving BS]Marriages don't just break down because of one person, both parties ALWAYS have a hand in it. [SOMETIMES, yes, but in this instance we were goddamned WORKING on it when YOU threw your chips into the ring]People make mistakes in relationships... sometimes they can work it out and sometimes not. [Um, an affair is a conscious choice, don't write it off as a booboo....this is DANGEROUS ground, want me to tell you what married life is like with X? Want me to tell you of his affairs? Of his lies? Of his hitting me? No? Didn't think so]So what was your contribution? To hang it all on B is declaring your own innocence altogether, so shoulder your part of the blame at least! [I have NEVER said I was blameless, but I am one THIRD to blame only]B did not do this all by himself, he had you to help him.[And then he had you to help him leave, and you to become his secretary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ]

So where do you want to go from here? What do you want for your future and the kids future? [Ideally a future without YOU in it, but if that is NOT going to happen, then I will settle just for ME never having to lay eyes on you]How are we going to get there? I am no longer the silent party trying to keep out of your way so that you can heal and find your feet and your way and your peace. [So a ring on your finger makes you Superwoman now? Get real] Please Jacky, we need to get past this stuff for everyone's sake. I really want to start a dialogue between us because I truly believe that we can work things out to get to an acceptable level of civility and co-operation. [Um, no....I have no wish to be your friend in any way for any reason. My kids and my X are MY business and whether you are married to him or not, that will ALWAYS be the case. He will ALWAYS be bonded to me because of the kids. We will HAVE to make decisions without YOUR input, like it or not. I have a 17 year history with him, not YOU, and I know him better than you EVER will.

So, in short I do not think it is necessary for US to be chummy because after all, you are not my kinda gal.

The X-wife-mother-of-your fiance's-kids
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wish I could send that....sigh.....

Love and ight,

Jacky

Hi Jacky,

Sorry she sent you a letter. I read it yesterday and was well to be frank just a little too miffed to say anything constructive. I have to give you this; your OW has balls the size of Russia! (BTW Russia is the largest country in the world). Wow she is very amoral and sorry you have to deal with her.

I wanted to take a day and think about her letter in a more rational light. I think you should be happy she sent you the letter. You wonder why? Well for the simple fact that she has shown you how afraid of you she really is. She has proven to you that you have all the power and she has none.

By sending that letter my guess is that in some small way you broke through to your ex for a millisecond. She saw this and is now trying to put you back into the bad light. My guess is that she is afraid that what happened to you will happen to her. Lets face it this is going to be marriage number four for her. Not solid ground to begin with statistically and then to top it all off they started under an affair. Which is double jeopardy for them.

I would think long and hard what you and your children really want. Ask them. Take this lemon and turn it into lemonade. I think Ms Clack has shown you that they perceive very much that you have the ball and can run with it! Maybe go to therapy with the children and really find out how they want a relationship with their dad and then implement it. If need be have the therapist write a letter to your ex about how his actions have affected them and this is what the children want. They can view the results how they want but I think deep down inside they know what they did was wrong and it is just deflection away from then back onto you. This done in the hopes to make themselves feel better again which we all know that they are very hedonistic in that they must feel good at all times.

Hi Nina

Correction, she is not my OW. Definitely will never hook up with somebody that is anorexic, screetches like a hyena when she speaks and thinks that she can control the world. Let her control WH he deserves that but as far as I am concern she is a women of no value and I will not allow her to intimidate me with her rightousness.
As far as WH goes, he became so spineless, OW needs to be his backbone.

I have also received a letter from her confessing her love for my H. How she will care and love my kids. She also understood the pain I was going through and not wish it on her worse enemy. How she will take care of him just like I did and how sorry she was for the breakup of our marriage but these things happen as she has also been through two marriages, how quickly she had healed and bear no grudges against her ex's and how balance her kids are because of her strength. (Kids lived with 2nd ex/h for a year and since the beginning of this year they are now living with them.) Her eldest daughter had to repeat a year at school due to emotional instability). Initial reaction was to smash her face.............Decided to take the legal route.
Had a court order issued against her for Breach of Peace that for the next five years she is not allowed to send me letters, harrass me, not come within 500m, neither contact me telephonically or by voicemail.

A week after she received this order, she phoned me wanting to just be civil for the sake of WH and kids. I listened put down the phone and immediately invoked the court order. She received a warning letter from court but if she does it again she will be arrested.

I have no dealings with her whatsoever. What you must realise is that they are very insecure women. They will do everything to protect the WH esp from you the wife. WH is very grateful for this which he thinks is true love because he is also insecure.

You must change that. By subtly taking control of your sitch and handling each and every arrow that is fired at you in a respectful way. No tantrums, anger outburst, lovebusters, disrespectful behaviour. Remove yourself completely from their fantasy world and guess what happens...............They must deal with their own insecurities.... No more Jacky to blame for putting a rain cloud over there happiness. The more you interfere in their lives the longer it is going to take for them to come out of LA LA Land.

I also had to change my attitude with my kids. No more disrespectful remarks about their dad and OW. But as for the OW, I stopped speaking about her, obsessing about her in my house and with my kids. When this behaviour changed she became a non entity. To us now she does not matter, we know how we feel about her and now can even joke about how rediculous she is.

I felt exactly how you felt. We are so different. She loves loud music, drinks, parties etc. Me, I like classical music, theatre and nature. She likes stilletos, gold and glitter clothes, I like classic clothes and jeans.

I've changed my whole lifestyle. Doing everything I always wanted to do but was to busy loving my H. Changed the children's lifestyle too. Last conversation DD had with WH, he wanted to know why she never answers her cell phone....Her reply......Dad we are living such a hectic life I don't have the time to wait on your calls any longer. Wonder what he was feeling.

We have cut the cord and moved on. They are still stuck. With me being out of the picture they are looking at other avenues now to keep that fantasy world alive. OW, phones DD to demand that she phones her dad. DD just ignores her calls. OW's children phone my children from her cell phone. My children never calls back. My DD told me "Mum, we have you, your family and dad's family, they are nothing to us."

Children are resilient let them be. They also know right from wrong.

One last thing - In my dreams, I have tarred and feathered, painted her red, and told the world that she gave me STD. So as you can see I am normal and no angel.

You will get their you have the strength of characted not to be outwitted by this faceless women.

From someone whose marriage didn't fail due to an affair, I interpretted the letter in a different light. I did say I was naive in this situation.

Now, after reading the responses, I can say that I've learned alot. I think you've received great advice here, and have already begun to invoke it. I usually take letters at face value, but appreciate the insight given by the experienced posters here.
Good Luck to you and your family. Keep healing!

Hey Jacky!

I thought about this a lot, ever since you 1st posted. It's extremely hurtful when the kids are involved, especially when the WS is still involved with OW that he/she was at the dissolution of the marriage.
I remember in my experience, the one time I nearly fell apart, was when my then wife told me that she wanted the kids to "get to know OM as soon as possible", so he could be part of their lives. We came home, and I cried so much, I had to stay outside long enough with dark glasses on, until I had composed myself sufficiently to face my kids. That was with OM1.
My exW is still currently seeing OM2, who is still very much living with his GF (common-law wife of 4yrs), and he visits regularly, and I'm sure has taken them out (i don't interrogate the kids about this, so I don't know). Knowing that this scumbag has some kind of relationship with my great boys, sometimes makes me want to puke, but i need to remain a stable & loving father for their sakes. I've already contemplated writing or phoning his W, so this [censored] can be exposed, but have always reconsidered. I have also considered writing him, but don't think it will do any good. I prefer to ignore him with contempt. The other day I picked up the kids and he was there; ...he greeted as I came up the pathway, but I just looked his way, and then ignored him completely, as if he wasn't there.

I don't know what I would do if he left his c-l W, and took up with my exW. I'd probably have exactly the kind of resentment you have towards Clickety-Clack. I think by then I would probably warn him that if he tried in any way to be a father to my boys, I would expose the kind of person he was, to them. It really gets to me how someone can behave this way with impunity. I don't even know if this would be constructive,...I guess not. This would only open up the door for her to bad-mouth me behind my back, since she has custody and they spend way more time with her. I could not allow that to happen.

If you haven't answered the letter yet, I would suggest the following:
Start with her quote:

" Up until now I have steered clear of whatever was going on between you and B and the kids,
....".... ..I suggest you continue.

..and ignore the rest. By her "level-headed" response, she is now ahead in the "dignity" stakes. You need to recover and catch up big-time. Don't let her win this. GinnyF & Resilient are completely right here. Don't beat yourself up too much by "slipping up" by your somewhat emotional responses or behaviour w.r.t the kids over the holidays. You're human.

Your response to your ex should include something along the lines of.
" this is what CliCkety-Clack wrote .. "" This letter heralds the end of how things were. You do not have permission to vent your spleen every few months and abuse us by e-mail or any other medium. We have the right to be respected as much as you feel you do.""
Please remind her that while we were married she was sleeping with you, this hardly qualifies as a comparison".
Try as far as possible to maintain your dignity. As I said, I really don't know if I could cope with that situation, it's a real toughy. I may have to face the same situation soon, and I'm not relishing the prospect. Be as classy as possible, and show up that garden rake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> for what she is.

muzohead

<small>[ March 12, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: muzohead ]</small>

Hi Jacky,

As you know, I have first-hand experience with this as my cheating XW married the OM.

I suggest you only communicate with your XH concerning the kids and leave it at that. (ignore the letter from the OW and don't write any more) Make sure your XH is aware of this, but be civil when you do communicate with your XH. Remember that you still have children to raise and you want them to be healthy.

By doing this, you avoid validating what they have done and you minimize the pain to you.

NEVER EVER blow up in front of your kids like that again. Minimize contact with the OW and your XH and go scream into a pillow or something. I used to just flip off my XW AFTER I was out of sight.
.
1. The meanest thing you can do right now is be nice to your XH (be nice, but firm - focusing on the children) - eventually he'll see what he's missing and THAT will cause him severe pain (I think this is especially true of men who leave their wives for the OW)
2. The train wreck between your XH and the OW will eventually occur - at least they will have a miserable marriage (I know this first hand as my mother married the OM)
3. Ignore them - it's the only way for you to get off the rollercoaster - their madness will make you mad as long as you continue your contact with them
4. Focus on your children. I can't stress this enough. The kids know what is going on. Be a great parent and you will win.

The only way to win is to stop playing the game. Cheaters always win the game as long as honest people are willing to play it. Cut your loses. Then, cheaters, being cheaters and all, will eventually turn on each other. Right now, they have you to focus on. Remove yourself.

--

Hehe. I just read Ginny F's post. Funny how similar our posts are. Although, the card to the OW was fun, I think it could backfire as you could be seen as being manipulative. I prefer a complete ignore approach. Again, as to not validate the OP and what they've done.

<small>[ March 12, 2003, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: father of 1, husband of 0 ]</small>

Jackie,

i did not respond right away, because i did not think the letter was a good idea. . . You are dealing with the aftermath, and their is no way these people take responsibility for their actions. So forcing them to face it drives them away, because they can't handle it.

I agree with the above poster, IGNORE is the best way, and help your kids deal with their anger so that they don't grow up to be so similar. Not more letters except about kids. . .

i tried with my X, same NPD/BPD stuff, and simple concepts don't get very far unless you are giving them reason to feel good, unless you are making them feel good all the time. . . .

so just ignore, and they will begin to leave you alone also. . . .

peace

wiftty

Thanks everyone.....

You don't have to tell me anymore NOT to write to HER, because I have resolved the situation within my own head, as I wrote in my post above (but since it is a longgg one, maybe some of you missed it). I wrote (a shortened version of the one above):

I had decided that I would not reply to her in any way, because I can see how she twisted the Christmas fiasco and the whole affair thing to suit herself, so I am not going to give her any more ammunition.

Here are some observations I have after reading carefully between the lines:

* She is very insecure.... Can it be that my venting had an effect on X, and she doesn't like me to have ANY effect on 'her man'?

* She is extremely manipulative, look how she turns things around to suit herself

* She is in denial - my X was seeing her a WEEK after leaving, I know this for a fact, and so it goes to show something was in the wind before he left.....so she WAS a contributing factor, like it or not

* She does not understand kids....their dad lost them when he would NOT put them first

* She thinks that although I do not know her story, I in fact do....
* She thinks she can actually tell ME what to do

* She may not have told X she sent that letter....

Why the last point? Well, it was written and sent during the working day, and while under a thin disguise of trying to get communication going, it is really a vent at ME. If I were my X I would not have allowed her to do this, because it could get me to tell her MY side of the story, bits of which she doesn't know (ie: He cheated on me before we married, unprotected sex in all cases, he hit me, he stayed out all night long on many occasions, he lied and lied and lied, and the BIGGIE....when they split up last year, who was the first person he told? ME. Add another BIGGIE, I wonder if she knows that he hasn't shared the news of their engagement with his family yet....WHY not? I would be worried about that if I were her.)

Now all of that stuff has the potential to blow the roof off their little love shack, and knowing my conflict avoiding X, he would not be okaying her letter to me, because it is virtually giving me permission to spill the beans on him if I feel angry enough.

So........ with that in mind, I forwarded her letter to him at work , and just wrote at the top "If my emails to you need a reply, please answer them yourself." Now, I would imagine that she cannot use that statement against me, but then she is very crafty, so who knows?

I know I am not perfect, regarding the blow-up at Christmas. I do know I tried to keep it down, and ended up hissing a lot of words at X...but sometimes emotions just get the better of you.

I DID learn from that experience though, and that is what stopped me from writing back to her immediately with some salty language.

Love and light,

Jacky

Hey Jacky,
So glad to see you here......
I am very happy to see you stand up to the ex for you and the kids. Don't let ow tell you how you should feel. She is trying to convince herself I think. If the kids don't want to go to the wedding don't make them. They will only be mad at you in the long run. They are old enough to know how they feel. If they want to go give them that option that you will do what ever decision they feel is right.
Thank you for the update and the email.