Nellie, I have alot of history in old posts, but the short story is: It was a marriage that never really started.
He wanted a mother, not a wife. I question his maturity level, and now think of him as a 17 YO. He had virtually no involvement with the girls before separation, I felt like a single parent.
But he's now fighting for 50/50 custody. The psychologist evaluating the family for custody said that he's very concerned about H's lack of parental judgement, and lack of communication skills.
I twisted myself around and overfunctioned (enabled) to keep the farce of the M.
Now realize I was in Denial about the extent of the Marital Problems.
H: Conflict Avoider, No communication skills (Confirmed by H's MC)
Separated 12/30/01, filed for D 3/28/02, New Lawyer 09/23/02.
H still in ANGER Stage, dragging D out!

I want to move on with life. I have had this shadow of Emotional Abuse and Control over me for 5 years. I feel like a person again, and will continue healing from this experience.
I love my children and truly believe that this is the best thing for them and for me. H relived his childhood in our M, and he's damaged. I can't see doing that to my girls.

This may sound harsh, but it's taken alot of work to be able to admit these things.

Unfortunately, all too many fathers are not sufficiently involved with their children, and it is almost always worse after divorce. I disagree that divorce is ever better for children, unless they are in physical danger. A mostly uninvolved father in the home is better than one out of the home. Many people are immature, many people are looking for a parent figure - it doesn't mean they are not married, or that they deserve to lose their children.

In my four years on this board, I can't say I ever recall an instance before of someone wanting a divorce unless their spouse either committed adultery or was doing something illegal - drug use, assault, child porn, etc., or the person wanting a divorce was involved at some level, even if was only a one-sided emotional affair, with someone else.

I am really bothered by the statement that the marriage never really started. Something similar is so common in the WS "script." How many times have I read on this board that the WS said, after 5, 10, 20, 30 years of marriage that he made a mistake marrying his spouse, that somehow the marriage was never "real"?

I am curious as to what the evaluator said. Did she say nothing positive about your husband, and nothing negative about you? I would find that unusual and of great concern, if that were the case. What reasons did she give for saying he lacked parental judgment? Is he letting a three year old ride an ATV alone, or does he just have a laissez-faire parental style? There is no one right way to parent, yet many "experts" think there is. I believe very much in attachment parenting, in the family bed when the kids are little, in homeschooling, in breastfeeding into toddlerhood - and my husband did too - but many so called experts think there is something wrong with that. I have friends who breastfed till their kids were five - although that would not have been right for our family, I would defend their right to raise their kids differently, but many "experts" think that is wrong. I think it is cruel to force children to cry themselves to sleep, yet some parents think that is the way to raise kids. I have found that people who go into social work and related areas often tend to believe that they know the one right way.

<small>[ March 29, 2003, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

Nellie, I don't think I'm the only one on this board whose M fell apart without an A or Illegal.

I'm still waiting for the full psych eval. (which was due 4 weeks ago).
What reasons did he give for saying he lacked parental judgment?
1. H took the kids to the evaluator when they were clearly sick. Psych. thought he should have called to cancel, and taken them straight to the doctors.
2. H regularly leaves kids with his parents (his current residence) during his "parenting time" and to attend counseling sessions instead of scheduling these on his non-kid days.
3. Psych concerned that H will not consider the children during his busy work periods, and also that he will work in his remote garage with heavy equiptment while the children are alone in the house.
4. 2 YO had borderline 3rd degree burns, and admitted to PICU resulting in a DYFS investigation under H's care. (I'm certain I would've known the difference in her cries and tended to her sooner).
5. Teachers said that H has no interest in children's schoolwork or progress.
6. Psych spoke to H's IC, but also learned for himself about lack of communication skills.
7. H took children to a counselor without notifying me, after psych. specifically told him to wait until after eval. I found out from the children, who psych. said didn't appear to need IC at this time.

This is what the psych. learned. I learned it after 5 years of him not being around. Working in his garage or just out, instead of at home with the kids. H never took the kids anywhere before the separation. This is not an exaggeration, he had no one-on-one time with them ever, and I had no time without the children, expect at work.

There were probably substance abuse issues, which I only learned after the fact, but many of his issues were the result of ACOA and unresolved FOO issues. I've now learned what a "dry drunk" is.

So, don't blatantly say that M's can't end without affairs. Emotional abuse and Abandonment really do feel like a great reason to get out.
I am now trying to teach my DD's to express their feelings, and not to turn their anger inward like their F. I have to retrain them to stop repeating his phrases, such as calling me a maid when doing household work, when I work FT and make more than he does.
I am deeply disturbed when I look at his FOO through my clearer eyes and wonder why his Mother did not get her children the help they needed when they were younger to allow them to grow into emotionally healthy, responsible adults. She has raised 3 children who at ages 35-39 are as stunted in their development as teenagers. ACOA issues are present in all of them, as well as repressed anger, depression, and projection. Yikes. I am relieved to be out of this mess.

Now, why would I want to stay? To repeat my MIL's mistakes with her children. NO WAY! I discuss feelings with my children. I have them in Rainbows classes to deal with the grief of Divorce, and to help them learn to express their feelings. I am tired of my children crying that they don't want to go with Daddy, saying they need more Mommy time.

H has continued to see the therapist I found last March to work on communication issues. He sees him weekly, and I have yet to see any progress. I can only hope that he will deal with his issues to become a whole person, rather than the shell that I saw. I want my children to have a good father, and I've cried many times that I failed them in this important area. I hope he will grow to become a responsible adult, but so far, he still appears as the irresponsible 17 YO.

A major FOO issue that was never addressed in his family was that his father killed a child while under the influence of alcohol when H was 17. The parents didn't think the kids needed counseling for this, even though the father was convicted.
Oh, and during this custody battle, FIL gets arrested for soliciting a prostitute in his town, and denies it to H & H's lawyer. I had 5 sources of proof, all with FIL's address. And my DD's crawl into bed with Grandma & Grandpa. It's a scary family.

You didn't answer my question yet:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did she say nothing positive about your husband, and nothing negative about you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that you have not received the full eval report yet, but if she gave you detailed reasons for the negative things she said about your husband, it would surprise me if nothing positive was mentioned about him, or nothing negative about you.

I would dispute the statement that marriages "fall apart." Marriages end because one person decides she or he wants to end it.

I will stand by my statement that a father at home , even a pretty uninvolved father, is better than no father at all at home.

nellie...I will stand by my statement that a father at home , even a pretty uninvolved father, is better than no father at all at home.

That is an indefensible statement for the simple reason that kids need to be mentored (essentially, physical well-being a given first). An ineffective bio parent (and there are many such) cannot be replaced with a en effective step-parent without a divorce. So on the narrow issue of divorceing for the "kids" there are many reasons for doing so besides just their physical safety. No one would argue that step-parents cannot do a fine job of raising kids, so there you are, it is a judgement call....

btw...that point is made without even considering the baggage visited on kids by screwed up bio-parents....even neglect (univolvement) can cause serious psychological repercussions. And what difference does it make what was said about her? If she is bad enough a parent, then the kids should be removed from them both (and that does happen regularly). Apparently she made the cut, but undoubtedly is not "perfect" ...so what?

<small>[ March 29, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Hopefully Newly is not divorcing her husband for the express purpose of replacing him with a "better" father for her kids. Aside from the fact that the chance that a step-father is going to be somehow more involved with them than the man who actually fathered them (and apparently cares enough to be seeking 50% custody) is very, very slim, even if the father is not perfect, he is still their father, and I doubt very much that the children want someone to replace him in that role. But then again, lurking, I am well aware that you have little respect for marriage or the importance to the children of having an intact family, and perhaps your views are colored by the fact that your father was not there when you needed him. I do not wish to argue about this subject with you.

Newly,

According to the third edition of First Aid and CPR published by the National Safety Council, third degree burns are not painful, due to damage to the nerve endings. It also says that even doctors who are experienced can not figure out how deep the burn is (i.e. the degree) for a few days after the burn occurs.

Nellie, apparently you are not familiar with Emotional abuse, which can be as damaging as physical abuse to a spouse's and children's psyche.
The only good thing the psych. said about H was that he bonded with the children. he's had a year to do this. Before the split, he barely spent any time with the children. This is not an exaggeration.

I am not D'g to replace their father. They know he will always be their father. He's become much more involved since the split. And he still fails miserably in my mind. I think removing the children from an abusive home is necessary, whether emotional or physical abuse.

Your comment on third degree burns is unbelieveable. Ask the people who burned in the Rhode Island nightclub about the effects of burns. Have your 2 YO on morphine and still screaming due to the pain of severe burns, with a surgeon telling you the a skin graft and a 9 day hospital stay is necessary before you comment. Imagine that your child can never walk again because the bottom of her foot was burned off. All because H did not respond seriously to his toddler's screams. And yet, he still blamed others who were nowhere near the scene, because that's what emotionally challenged adults do - blame others.

Nellie, Please end your comments on this thread because you cannot possibly imagine my position. Perhaps your H did not ignore you for three months when you were pregnant because he couldn't deal with it, or ask you to have an abortion, or refuse to go to any doctor visits or even go to the hospital for the birth. I should have seen the signs earlier of his emotional issues, but see my tag line "I was in denial". How could I have made such a terrible choice. I believed in him, but I was proven wrong. It really was a marriage that never started.
For a different perspective, maybe you should read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans, and thank god that you were not exposed to this type of individual.

I truly believe that I am doing the right thing, and that God led me to the proper support, and brought wonderful people into my life to help me through this difficult period, so that I can grow from it. I thank God for my children, and for the wonderful life I have.
I was so very lonely in this M, and I am at peace now.

I am also very much less judgemental that I was, perhaps you should learn that too.

I don't want to argue about anything but it is possible for a step-father to be more involved than biological fathers. It's happened in my case and also my ex-husband's step-father was more involved than his biological father.

My kids' step-father has been more involved in the last year than their father ever was. He's attended more school functions (their father never attended ANY school functions), more sports practices and games (their father attended 3 baseball games, 4 soccer games and 1 football game in 7 years), and has went to more family functions than their father. And he wants to, he doesn't feel obligated to. We also do the same for his sons.

It is very possible!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mitzi,

But your children's father is not involved with his children, and apparently Newly's husband is. It is not better for children to have a step-father than for them to have a father who loves them in the home - even if the biological father is not perfect.

Newly,
I did not say that your child was not in pain - often burn victims have a combination of first, second and third degree burns. The point of my comment about the 3rd degree burns was that I do not believe that it would have been likely that your husband, or you, could have determined that the burns were 3rd degree as opposed to 2nd degree merely by her cries.

You say that your husband has been seeing a counselor for a year, and that he is much more involved with the children. It seems to me that your husband is trying to become a better father, but I suspect that no matter what he does it will not be enough for you. You say the evaluator said that he has bonded with the children - I can not imagine that she would recommend a child custody arrangement that would minimize the time they spend with him and thereby interfere with allowing that bond to be maintained.

Even if he does not get 50/50 custody, the kids will be spending significant amounts of time with him alone, apparently far more than they spent with him when you were living together, and you won't be around to have any influence or protect them if they need protecting, as you apparently think they do. I don't see how they will possibly be better off. Were you hoping to be awarded sole custody?

No, I do not understand your position. I feel very strongly that there are only a very small number of justifications for divorce, all of which involve activities that are illegal. I firmly believe that children are almost never better off after divorce, except in a few situations, such as cases of child molestation. It makes no difference if the parents are "happy" or not - there has been significant research showing that children do not really care if their parents are happy. It is more important to them that their families are together. Even a pretty crummy intact family is better than a broken home.

I hope you discussed your position on divorce with your husband before you married him - I hope he didn't go into the marriage believing it was forever.

I will stop posting to you, since the fact that we believe so very differently about the importance of marriage and family ensures I will never understand your position and you will never understand mine. I sincerely hope that in return you do not respond to any future postings of mine.

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

Very true, Nellie. My children's father is not involved. And ya know what? No matter how bad of a husband he was, whenever he decides he wants to be dad, I let him try...each and every time. I have never told and will never tell my kids that they can't see or talk to their dad. I will give him every chance to be the father that he never has been. He's their dad and I can't change that.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nellie & Newly ---

My marriage did not disolve because of an affair. It disolved because My EX decided after we had children that he didn't want to be married or to have children. I can't prove he wasn't having an affair - and actually suspect he was having one at this point in time - but I didn't know of it before he left.

He doesn't provide support - and has no interaction with the children. He does NOT visit.

At this point in time - on the court's recommendation - and my own personal evaluation of the situation - I would have a hard time encouraging the kids to see him again. He did nothing but hurt them with his angry hateful words when he was here.

I disagree with the idea that children need contact with bio-parent regardless of the situation. There are extenuating circumstances in some cases. The BIO-PARENT is NOT always the BEST parent available.

Jan