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I have known a lot of women whom I liked and admired, but liking and admiring a woman is not enough for me to consider her as a prospective partner. And while I believe that compatibility of lifestyles and life goals is important, as is a reasonably well-developed set of relational skills, those things are still not enough for me to start seriously thinking. Not even with chemistry added to the mix.
Maybe it's arrogant of me, but I would rather not be married at all than to be married to someone whom I didn't believe was perfect for me. Neither would I consider marrying someone whom I didn't believe was too good for me.
Now I have to explain what I mean by those assertions. A perfect partner is not the same as a perfect woman. A perfect woman would have no need for me in her life; and while I would not want to be needed in the sense that my wife could not survive (physically or emotionally) without me, I would want to feel that I could provide some enrichment to her life. I would want to believe that her growth as an individual was aided by my support. I would want to believe that I could help her to see things in ways she would not have seen them on her own. I would want to believe that when she was feeling sad or helpless or lonely or discouraged, I could be a source of strength and encouragement to her. I would want to believe that when she was troubled in her mind, I could be a source of wisdom to her.
So what then would a perfect partner be? Well, to me, a perfect partner would be someone who would enrich my life, someone who would support and encourage my personal growth, someone who would help me to see things in ways I would not have seen them on my own, someone who would strengthen and encourage me when I was feeling sad or helpless or lonely or discouraged, someone whose counsel would help keep me in the way I should go. In other words, a perfect partner would be someone who could be to me what I would want to be to her.
So what do I mean when I say that I wouldn't marry someone whom I didn't believe was too good for me? I mean that I would want to marry someone whom I respected so much that I would be inspired to maintain a constant effort to be worthy of her. In other words, I would want to marry someone who would inspire me to be the best person that I could possibly be.
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my first impression is that she sounds like your mom. . .
wiftty bearer of bad impressions
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Gee, wiftty, I didn't know you had met my mom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
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I think that is a good way to put it Gnome. I think many of us would agree to the same qualities for a spouse; its just I don't think it is quite so black and white. People have so many areas of grey in their makeup, I wonder that one could ever find the perfect mate.
I read a book called Nasty Men and one of the lessons that spoke the most to me was that one should be picky about their intended spouse, it is settling that causes problems down the road. I know I won't "settle" in the future, but I'm not sure I would ever find "perfect", either.
And speaking of parents... mine have been together coming up on 44 years, yet I know they each feel the other has a few flaws, so is there really a "perfect mate"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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Well, what do you know? My 2 favorite men all on one thread! Hi, guys!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
Anyway, what a heady discussion. I'll address wiffty first--you're right, it does sound like his mom, in the sense that he's describing someone who would be nurturing to his growth as an individual and whom he admired and looked up to so much that he felt she was too good for him. I understand the dynamic you are trying to communicate there, and I think perhaps another way to say it would be: Think outside the box. What qualities in a partner might not initially be "like mom" but might be good for you or stretch you? What qualities do you need as a mature, individualized man that are not "mom" qualities? Is that sort of on target, wiffty?
And now, GDP, boy--I can see where your mind has been lately: Lady De Plume! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> haha (rib rib). I found it interesting that among your qualities for the perfect partner you did not list things like: "sound mental health" "no major addictions" "mature appropriate to her age" "individualized" "look out for personality disorders" and "has a compatible/complimentary personality to my own"...in addition to things like "must be spiritual (equally yoked)" and "must be at least physically pleasing enough to keep my interest." Come on! Be real--you are a man under all those plumes, I KNOW it!!! Did you ASSUME some of these things???? That's my guess...they are so basic you just didn't mention these out loud.
Also, I'm going to have trouble communicating this but please try really hard to hear the meaning under the words, okay?? I think it is conceivable that a spectacular woman would come along who has many/several of the qualities that you are looking for (such as enriching your life and allowing you to enrich hers) and yet may not yet be the PERFECT PARTNER for you. People do not always become perfect "partners" when they are single, because the whole point of being single is that you are not anyone's partner! So, I doubt if your perfect partner is going to present to you AS a perfect PARTNER. She will probably be more like a woman with several/many qualities that blend and compliment your own, who is also WILLING to learn to blend her life with yours and allow you to blend your life with hers. There are skills to that you know, and it is a PROCESS of two becoming one.
So, what do you think? First, do you think you understood what I was saying? Second, do you agree or disagree--please support your position (haha)?? Third, I assume this is a "work in progress"...have you thought of anything else you'd like to add, based on our discussion here (other than that you want to date your mom)??
Your true and faithful friend,
CJ
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bangarra: <strong>People have so many areas of grey in their makeup, I wonder that one could ever find the perfect mate. ...And speaking of parents... mine have been together coming up on 44 years, yet I know they each feel the other has a few flaws, so is there really a "perfect mate"?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the perfect mate would have a few flaws. Dealing with those flaws would provide the opportunity to practice virtues such as patience and forgiveness and understanding - and anger management. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And wouldn't I start to feel awfully inadequate if my wife really were perfect - but I were not?
How could I help my wife grow if she had no room for growth? How could I encourage her if she had no need for encouragement? I would just end up feeling extraneous.
This is not to say that I would want to marry a basket case. We're just talking about a few flaws here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I think that in a perfect partnership, each person helps the other to be the best they can possibly be. That requires a mixture of support and adversity. But too much support would provide no motivation to stretch and improve oneself, and too much adversity would be destructive. So..."moderation in all things" - even perfection!
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife: <strong>And now, GDP, boy--I can see where your mind has been lately...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aw, that's cheating, CJ! You already know where my mind has been, and why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I found it interesting that among your qualities for the perfect partner you did not list things like: "sound mental health" "no major addictions" "mature appropriate to her age" "individualized" "look out for personality disorders" and "has a compatible/complimentary personality to my own"...in addition to things like "must be spiritual (equally yoked)" and "must be at least physically pleasing enough to keep my interest." Come on! Be real--you are a man under all those plumes, I KNOW it!!! Did you ASSUME some of these things???? That's my guess...they are so basic you just didn't mention these out loud.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's right, CJ. I was trying to go beyond the typical advice for evaluating a relationship, and saw no need to rehash what's already been said. Dr. Harley already has several good articles on the subject right here on this website.
I attempted to encompass the sorts of things you mentioned within my introductory paragraph, where I acknowledged the importance of "compatibility of lifestyles and life goals", and "a reasonably well-developed set of relational skills". Someone with inadequate mental health, or someone with a major addiction, or someone who is overly immature, et cetera, would not have effective relational skills. Similarly, the "be not unequally yoked" clause falls under "compatibility of life goals".
I thought about saying something about personalities, but after some reflection I realized that I'm not sure I really believe there is such a thing as inherently incompatible personalities. I'm just not sure one way or the other. So I decided not to mention it.
As for the "physically pleasing enough to keep my interest" - I'm not even sure what that means. It has been my experience that the more I like and admire a woman, the more beautiful she appears to me. On the other hand, I must confess that I have never developed a genuine romantic interest in a woman who would be considered plain or unattractive by the general populace. In the end, I feel that a sample size of two is just too small for me to reach a valid conclusion. So I avoided mention of this potential factor as well.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think it is conceivable that a spectacular woman would come along who has many/several of the qualities that you are looking for (such as enriching your life and allowing you to enrich hers) and yet may not yet be the PERFECT PARTNER for you. People do not always become perfect "partners" when they are single, because the whole point of being single is that you are not anyone's partner! So, I doubt if your perfect partner is going to present to you AS a perfect PARTNER. She will probably be more like a woman with several/many qualities that blend and compliment your own, who is also WILLING to learn to blend her life with yours and allow you to blend your life with hers. There are skills to that you know, and it is a PROCESS of two becoming one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I understand what you are saying here, CJ; but if I do, then it's awfully close to what I was trying to say myself. I don't want a wife who thinks like me and acts like me. I want a wife who will stretch me beyond my comfort zone (albeit without pulling me apart or leaving me behind). I want a wife who will keep surprising me. I want a dynamic relationship. So, for me, attempting to assess potential is perhaps even more important than attempting to assess current qualities.
Of course, that's what got me in trouble in the first place. I could see a phenomenal amount of potential both in my (ex-)wife personally and also in our relationship. But she was afraid to grow.
I think, CJ, that you picked up on something which is intrinsic to the criteria I outlined, but which I would have been wiser to have stated explicitly: the kind of mutual growth which characterizes a perfect partnership is not possible without a mutual commitment. It doesn't just happen. There must, as you say, be a willingness to blend, to adjust, to give, and to accept. (And, as you point out, even the willingness is not enough without the skills.)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So...have you thought of anything else you'd like to add, based on our discussion here (other than that you want to date your mom)??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually...yes, I have thought of something else...
I really wouldn't want to date someone too much like my mother. She already raised me once, and I would rather date someone who would push me in a new direction. Furthermore, for the first time I have started to ask myself whether it would really be best for me if my (ex-)wife came back. I've already learned a lot from her, and now that she's taken several giant steps backward, I have to wonder how long it would take to ramp up to a mutual growth stage. Of course, I may be underestimating my own growth prospects for participating in her hypothetical recovery, but...well, let's just say that things seemed a lot clearer when I found it impossible to imagine being interested in someone else.
However, this line of thought exposes an assumption I made which may not actually generalize very well. I place an extremely high value on growth. But now that I think about it, I can imagine that some people might place a higher value on stability. The characteristics they would look for in a partner would presumably differ from what I would look for, or at the very least be weighted differently. In general, I might expect growth to be more important to younger people, and stability to be more important to older people.
Hmm. If that's the case, I hope I never get old. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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GDP ---
I'm on the wrong forum ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I usually post over on EN's.
But I saw this and thought I'd respond - because I liked your attributes for picking a spouse...
There's just something about having someone who is so busy keeping up with you that and encouraging you that they don't have time to put you down that makes them attractive (and visa versa!) That's the kind of spouse I want - if I ever look again - I will concentrate on finding one that is so wonderful I have to work to keep up with him - and who thinks I'm so wonderful he has to work to keep up with me.
I'm grinning from ear to ear - because the last three people I've talked to have mentioned how much fun it is to be with me - because it makes them think to stay up with what I'm talking about... Before that - I'd had several complain that I just am too involved in life...
I'm thinking the ones who are working to keep up are probably worth keeping up with! Because I admire all three of them - and two of them are women... One of them is married to the most interesting guy! Not that I'm interested in him - but watching the two of them together sure makes me want to have that kind of relationship!!!
Thanks for sharing!!!
Jan
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want a wife who will keep surprising me. I want a dynamic relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was married to one of those, a nut case, she was always changing so much that i never knew which person i was dealing with every day. . .
so, you want a drama queen?
you need a constant supply of specialness?
you need an intelligent ADD or ADHD person?
GDP, you need to examine your definition of growing? so that you don't sound like a child. . intellectual curiousity maybe? inventor??
pssst, i found someone like this, BUT, she is not EXACTLY like this, she is just almost like this, and close enough to say, OK, i can accept close enough. . .
wiftty
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I would want a partner that I could love from the depths of my soul and she me.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime: <strong>I was married to one of those, a nut case, she was always changing so much that i never knew which person i was dealing with every day. . .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate the value of pointing out the ways in which my words could be misinterpreted, wiftty, but is the context really that unclear? When I say I want a partner who keeps surprising me, I'm not saying that I want a partner who is unstable. I'm just saying that I want a wife who is sufficiently different from me that there is always something new for me to discover about her and about the way she sees and interacts with me and with the world. Of course, if her mindset were so different that I could barely relate to it at all, then I'd imagine that the relationship would be more frustrating than exciting. A fine balance is required, I think, and that's a large part of why it has been so rare for me to find a woman whom I would consider as a prospective partner.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>GDP, you need to examine your definition of growing? so that you don't sound like a child. . intellectual curiousity maybe? inventor?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, let's see, here's a dictionary definition of growth: "An abnormal mass of tissue, such as a tumor, growing in or on a living organism." Uh, wait a minute, you're right, wiftty, that doesn't really convey what I meant...
Seriously though, how is it that I'm sounding like a child? Do you think we ever reach a point where we no longer benefit from further personal development - be it intellectual, spiritual, artistic, relational, or whatever? Do we ever reach a point where support and encouragement is no longer helpful?
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: I appreciate the value of pointing out the ways in which my words could be misinterpreted, wiftty, but is the context really that unclear? When I say I want a partner who keeps surprising me, I'm not saying that I want a partner who is unstable. I'm just saying that I want a wife who is sufficiently different from me that there is always something new for me to discover about her and about the way she sees and interacts with me and with the world. Of course, if her mindset were so different that I could barely relate to it at all, then I'd imagine that the relationship would be more frustrating than exciting. A fine balance is required, I think, and that's a large part of why it has been so rare for me to find a woman whom I would consider as a prospective partner. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am still available. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Are we passed April Fools?
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Like Water For Chocolate: <strong>I am still available.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. I haven't yet convinced myself that I am available.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Are we passed April Fools?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it is still April, and I am still a fool, so I'd say the answer must be no.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: Well, it is still April, and I am still a fool, so I'd say the answer must be no.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's cute and adorable
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GDP,
Long time no see! So you are looking for the perfect companion but not too perfect?!?!?! eh?
Hm.... when you find that one. Clone her and then sell her clones. There must be a million of U guys out there wanting the 2003 version of the stepford wives! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Just kidding.
GNP, I know you are a man of wisdom. U realize that the relationship you seek requires the input of 2 sides. Perfection or near perfection on 1 side will not do unless it is equally balanced. So how do you rate in the perfection or near perfection scale?
L. <small>[ April 04, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>
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Please let me know which city you live in and I'll forward you information on where you can adopt a dog. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
After first husband, I changed my goals. I wanted someone sane, not drug addicted, and who didn't wear my underwear.
I think I really need to get some sleep.
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My partner, I would want him to let me grow, to let me be creative, to let me experiment with different things. I would want my hsuband to be exploring, wanting to build things, wanting adventure. I would want both of us to sit next to each other and talk away the night. To talk about everything, stars, sky, color, shapes, all things that make us individuals.
I want a husabnd that treats me like he himself would like to be treated. I want a husband that makes the relationship 50/50. A husband seeking to please his partner, and I pleasing him. A husband that will allow me to speak openly, and LISTEN!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> with EYES open. I want a husband that will POJA, and if circumstances come down to who should make the last decision, it is okay if I make the last decision. And if he makes the last decision, it is okay. A POJA should be instilled if it needs to be.
There will never be a perfect mate for anyone. Our environment creates differences everyday. And also, chemistry in the body creates differences. The atmosphere creates mood swings. And one may find themselves being awfully senstiive one day over another. To beable to have your partner listen to you, and have empathy, and not troubleshoot is a plan of good communication. That is what I am learning, that I needed someone to show compassion, and not troubleshoot. My goal was to interact with my hsuband, and have him feel my feelings. Instead of trying to tell me what to do.
That is what I am learning, don't give advice, unless someone asks for it. Give compassion, and sympathy. Encourage with stating good qualities, and stating you will be there for them.
Feelings, are what makes up the character of a person. A feelngs need to be expressed and received. Critical remarkes are only for one reason, to put a person down. Criticism to a child is so devastating, and it takes about 20 positivie remarks to heal 1 critical remark.
Marriage is about listening and feeling for each other. That is what I want, a husband that feels my feelings. A husband that I can listen to his feelings, and act with hugging, holding, stroking his palm, or shoulder or back. A husband that knows when I would like to be held, or hugged. I would love to have a husband, that I could kiss first thing in the morning. And know that he loves my kisses. A husband that loves his goodbye kisses and hug. Hugging is so important to me now. I was not hugged much as a child, but I love the hugs now. The connection of electrical body impulses connecting. My husband didn't like to hug, and was not a hugger. I wanted this so bad. And how I got it was from a neighbor. She would be out at the bus stop and I would be out at the bus stop with my kids. She asked me after a short time, if she could hug me goodbye. I said sure. I was uncomfortable, but love it now. totally love it. Also, I want a husband that gives me a cute nick name, just for me. And I want a husband that I can give a cute name, just for him. I love being called Hon, and it makes me feel good. I am using it more, cause it feels so good!!!!
There is no perfect mate. It is a reltaionship of give/take.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid: <strong>U realize that the relationship you seek requires the input of 2 sides. Perfection or near perfection on 1 side will not do unless it is equally balanced. So how do you rate in the perfection or near perfection scale?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A very good point, Orchid!
I am not without my flaws and weaknesses, but I was a da^ned good husband under circumstances which I believe would have sent most men packing. I learned from that experience, and I grew from that experience, and there is no question in my mind that if I were to remarry, I would make a very good husband indeed.
I think I have earned the right to be picky. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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GDP,
Tu'che! (sp??)
U certainly have a right to be picky but don't become a nag. Or is that title only reserved for the women??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
It pains my heart to see what u men suffer. Had to know that those giving such pain are even from the same gender/category as us women who are also feeling similar pain dealing with our H's.
I certainly hope you find that perfect someone. But often we are sooo scared that we will NOT find that perfect someone that we either settle for less or go through life alone. Either way, we are again sad and disappointed.
Life is just too short for that.
L.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: <strong>Maybe it's arrogant of me, but I would rather not be married at all than to be married to someone whom I didn't believe was perfect for me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree 100%! I like your attributes of the perfect woman for you. That's good that you've thought all that out...most people don't!
I think for me it all boils down to....
....I think the perfect partner for me would be a man who would treat me the way I will treat him (which will be pretty darn good). A man who wants the sames things in life as I...or wants to discover those things together with me. A partner...an equal....a buddy...to face life's adventure with. Someone who loves me the way I deserve to be loved, because that is how I will love him.
My favorite new theme song these days is by the Dixie Chicks:
I Believe In Love I made a promise to myself Locked it away deep down inside Told my heart we'd wait it out Swore we'd never compromise Oh I'd rather be alone Like I am tonight Than settle for the kind of love That fades before the morning light
Silence stared me in the face And I finally heart its voice It seemed to softly say That in love, you have a choice Today I got the answer And there's a world of truth behind it Love is out there waiting somewhere You just have to go and find it
I believe in love, I believe in love A love that's real, loves that's strong Love that lives on and on Yes, I believe in love. ===================================
That says it all!
Aloha, Ms.O <small>[ April 11, 2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Ms.O ]</small>
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