(I'm sure my husand would have another side to this, and understand that I'm venting - is there any hope to save this marriage????)

Now my husband says I asked him to abuse me so I'd have an "excuse" to leave him... really, that's what he told me tonight. I
moved out about a month ago, we are having to deal with taxes. I do save if I file with him, so does he but he wanted me to come
over. I'm sure he thinks I'm still moving back into "his" big house because of the status "he" gave me...

Anyways while on the phone with him I asked him if he really thought that flirting with other women and calling them was in relation to how I treated him? I asked him what he thought our marriage was going to be like? I asked if because I seemed like I didn't want a traditional marriage, that to him meant that he
could call other women, flirt and cheat? Or did he just not expect to get caught? I found the cell records and they are black and white: he called some woman 20 years his junior for at least 8 months during our first year of marriage. He flirted with women in front of me then made a joke of it "in case I didn't notice." I just read a book on control freaks and it appears that they like to keep their wives real insecure, was he telling me that he could
get these other women to make me feel bad? There was sure a lot of cut downs in the beginning of this marriage - he put me in
my place telling me when I didn't look like a barbie doll wife (an object), that I wasn't making enough money (for him), that I really
couldn't handle a business (which I expanded and beat out several other companies with during this marriage) and that I was inadequate at home (oh, poor guy had to do everything, if I ever tried anything he'd tell me how wrong I was).

I reminded him tonight that if a man cherishes his wife, shares with her and makes her feel loved, he'll get more then that back.... really, would any man get a loving wife in return when he's criticizing her, flirting in front of her, and cutting her down? He asked then if I think I wasn't loving enough in response to him. YES, I told him, and all he has to do is read a few marriage books, which of course he shows no interest of. He really didnt'
have room in his life for a wife, he squeezed me into a few places in "his" house and I was supposed to be grateful for what
I got - then he told me I had to earn rights to the rest. It's so absurd, and I'll be making more money then him and will have
more then him in 12 years - he's 12 years older then me, and of course I can't compete with his assets. He loved to put me down
so he could build himself up, he loved to flirt with bimbos to make himself feel good... but the idiot lost marriage number three to this and he doesn't even have a clue as to why...

Yes, it appears that my husband was busy having fun feeling important, like the big rich banker - at the expense of his wife. In
fact it appears that he underestimated his wife ever finding the cell records or getting on his computer didn't he? He married the
nice, niave girl who didn't think he'd lie and cheat to this extent, likely he did it while we dated three years long distance... And he
to this day says he didn't do anything wrong - how can flirting with bimbos in front of your wife not be wrong? How can calling some
woman 20 years his junior several times a day during the first year of your marriage not be wrong? Oh, well now, since I told
him he knows it was wrong and he's sorry... only the sorry doesn't sound sincere to me, it never has, he's just sorry he got
caught.

He says I didn't show enough love to him, that's why this happened. If his wife had been more supportive, if I had been a
wife. Well, he never even let me squeeze into that role - hell, I wasn't "allowed" to drive his precious, perfect cars - mine was parked outside the garage, his inside. What does that say of what he thought of his wife? I told him if he ever needs to think about why he got divorced to just think about his perfect cars as
an example, and the cell records... because the cars and other women were more important then his own wife. In no way was I
even number 3 or 4 in his life, and a happy, loving wife has to be number 1 - and she doesn't have to "earn" it by making
so much money to compete with her husband, that's what he thinks. I know I made my mistakes in this marriage mind you but
I won't be at fault for his poor choices - to cheat, lie and then hurt me. I can be part of the reason it all happened, not THE REASON
as he'd like to think.

When I was filled with rage and anger I took it out on him verbally. I was so upset by the phone calls to other women and the porn, emails - that I just hit the anger buttons. I regret that but he continues to blame it on me that he hurt me, over 10 times he shoved me, pushed me, smashed me, hit my head against something - and he still says that it was my fault. Now tonight he said that I wanted it to come to this! Really, he said that I wanted him to hurt me so I had an "excuse" to leave this marriage. I couldn't believe it, what type of woman gets married to a man
who claims that she's the only one for him for years - just to want to be beat up in the end. And books say that anyone who gets
cheated on rages for 3-6 months, it's expected for there to be major anger - unfortunately I should have controlled my verbal anger, but he had no right to hurt me over and over again in response. He claims I pushed him to be violent so I would have a reason to leave... what sort of woman wants to be beat? It's
totally absurd, in fact I packed my bags over 5 times before I really left - warning him that if he hurt me again I would leave. He
didn't believe it, he barely showed up at counseling about 1/5th of the times I did, thought this would just go away and he could
be Mr. Selfish husband again.

How dare he say that I wanted to be physically hurt! He took 5-6 years of my life from me, during which I could have met a man
who would have supported me, who would have been faithful to me, who wouldn't have lied and cheated and hurt me... I can't let
him take another year from me can I? I was so tempted to try to work this out, I was going to try church and counseling again with
him now that I was gone. But even the new shrink said I can't change my husband, that he has to want to change - do you think
a man who blames physical violence and all of his marriage problems on his wife will even begin to look at himself? I asked how long it's been since he'd seen the counselor, uh, over 2 weeks. Well, there you go I told him, that shows how serious he is about reconciling this marriage and changing to make it work.
He's not going to change, he'll just be off to the next woman, blaming it all on me, like he has the other 2-3 wives in his past. It's never his fault, ever, and he'll keep repeating the same damn pattern. My mom says he's flat out DUMB, I'm beginning to think she's right.

Sorry to vent, it's late and I couldn't sleep.

Jordan, I haven't read your thread yet, but as you responded to mine, I am going to print it out and take it to the garden to read, then get back to you sometime. I live in England, so we are five?/six? hours ahead of you and the sun is shining and a lovely spring breeze is blowing. I don't know any of your story at all, but will post a reply sometime today - could be later on, as we have things to do.

Will be thinking of you, and will speak to you later.

Stilltrusting

Jordan, I will stick to my guns with my last post in the other thread. It sounds to me like you both need some time to think. Thats why I suggested if you do talk you don't talk about issues.. I would keep it casual and brief. If the conversation starts to turn south then change the subject or say its time to leave. Me and my W were at each others throats kind of like how you are describing. That was because when we were together we would fight. Now I decided to do what I'm suggesting you do and since then we have gotten along a lot better. She even gave me that hug I wanted so bad yesterday. Be strong, if he's worth your love and affection he will come around.

Jordan, here I am back again sooner than I thought. I have read your thread two or three times, and I am so sorry for all you are going through. You told me that my husband had done much worse things than yours has - well, certainly having a full emotional and physical affair is worse than just phoning up other women and flirting with them, yes, but nevertheless, I feel you have far more to cope with despite this. Your husband sounds as if he finds it almost impossible to be committed and loving to one woman - the fact that he is now having serious trouble with you, his third wife, coupled with his rage and violent attacks on you, are evidence of the deep problems within himself.

Although my husband is having a full-blown affair, the reason I am still with him, and standing by him, is because this is TOTALLY uncharacteristic of him. If any of our family, or his work colleagues or friends knew about this, they just wouldn't be able to believe it. My husband and I have been married for twenty years, and in all that time he has never even flirted with another woman, never ogled pornographic pictures, never been anything with me but a loving, caring, devoted and trustworthy husband. This is why I can't let things go. I know he is just in the middle of some crazy, juvenile infatuation, which will come to an end given time.

However, your situtation sounds far more serious, and whether there is chance of a reconciliation is really down to how much your husband is prepared to work on things - above all, to work on himself. I think he needs help to understand how much he has hurt you by his lying, his flirting and his cheating - of course you are still full of rage, and you have a right to receive an apology from your husband for the way he has treated you.

It sounds to me as though he could be in the middle of some mid-life crisis thing - his anger and inability to control himself is fairly typical of men who are going through a very stressful period. I think you need to get him to sit down, and try to talk to him calmly and without losing your cool, about all the things he has done to hurt you. Certainly as regards his hitting you and pushing you, this needs to be sorted out before it gets worse. My husband loses his temper when he is stressed, and hits furniture, and even slams his fists into his own head - but he would never lay a finger on me.

Do you truly WANT your marriage to work? I sense a lot of resentment and hurt in some of the things you are saying, and it may be that a separation from your H may be the best thing for you at the moment, to help sort out your own feelings. If you think there is no hope of your husband changing his behaviour, then it may be more stressful for you to remain with him. In my case, our history together stretches back to 1980, so that is something I can't just let go. But particularly if you are so much younger than your H, it may be better for you to try to make a new start.

My opinion is probably of no use to you at all - I admit I don't really know what what the best advice to give you is over this, except that I can understand how angry and hurt you are, and that something has to be done to sort things out for you. You are obviously not able to sleep, and probably aren't eating either. Have you been to see your doctor, and asked if he thinks anti-depressants might help? I didn't want to go on these, and held out for a long time, but they have very much helped keep my anxiety and stress under control, and you need all the help you can get at times like these.

I wish you all the very best Jordan in your troubles, and hope you can resolve something before too long.

Stilltrusting

Welcome to my world.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I was filled with rage and anger I took it out on him verbally. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've learned alot over the last 15 months. This is Emotional Abuse. If you haven't read it, please pick up a copy of "The verbally abusive relationship" by Patricia Evans. It really explained my M to me, and now I understand that we were in two different realities, one of partnership and one of control.
I'm sure much has to do with his FOO.
I am so happy I am out of that existence now. It's a fight to D this type of person, one who blames everything on you, and erodes your self-esteem. It seems like you see the problem much more clearly now. Denial of the problems was a protection for me, until I was ready to deal with the reality. "This couldn't possibly be my H, why would he think that way?, why would he treat me that way?" In a loving M, you don't need to ask these types of questions.

I'm convinced that I couldn't save my M, and that I'm doing the right thing for myself and my children. I hope you find peace. Know that you will never be able to fully understand this person, they do not think like you.

God bless you and your family.

Jordan,

I, too, would like to know what it is that you think *is* worth fighting for. I'm not being judgmental...I think you have to know this in order to decide whether it's worth the fight.

Frankly, your h sounds like my x. I was just supposed to kind of quietly fit myself into 'his' life. If I had a dime for everytime he told me 'it's not your business', I could at least buy us a nice dinner today. That's not what a marriage is. I think the cars thing is very telling...I have a friend who always let her SO know that it was 'her' house, 'her' cars, 'her' whatever...that he hadn't brought a single thing to the relationship. Even if she did have the house before him, I feel that it should have been her house but she made all the decisions and he let her. It ultimately became a huge problem. Now, he's in another state in HIS house with HIS truck and she's here alone.

Why did you marry your husband? What attracted you to him? What did you admire about him?

And you have to think carefully about the physical abuse. Mental and emotional abuse is bad enough but it can't land you in the hospital or morgue. And I truly believe that once a hitter, always a hitter.

Since we're laying all the cards on the table here...how do you feel about the age thing? I am 12 years older than my spouse and right now it's okay. I'm 43 and he's 32. But what happens when I'm 65 and he's only 53? Neither of us wants children (I have 3, he doesn't want any--ever), but what about you?

I think you need to do some heavy thinking (I'm sure you have already). This marriage didn't crumble solely because of him...it takes two to tango. Are you his first wife? Lots of times we have unrealistic expectations of marriage...we women think it's gonna be the Disney 'happily ever after' and men think it's gonna be the same life they had but with free sex 24/7 and someone to pick up the empty pizza boxes and beer bottles.

What dreams did you two share before the marriage?
Post back---I'm curious to see the answers.

PS. Dallas is a fine place to be, darlin'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I guess it's "marriage" itself that's worth fighting for. I married my husband knowing he wasn't perfect. He was fun, loved to travel, enjoyed cooking for me, is great around the house, loves gardening, is very accomplished at his job.. really I'd say most of our 5-6 years together has been good. What I can't handle is the horribly cutting verbal abuse - his negative comments about my looks, treating me like a child, like I"m not smart enough and not as organized as him. I'm not and he's been out to change and mold me from the start. It was the main contention when dating, I was surprised when he asked me to even marry me - I guess he thought he could overhaul me into what he wanted, I was younger then him and I think he understimated that I wasn't the type to be a shadow of a controlling man. Yes, in a way I was supposed to quietly "fit in" to "his" life.

When I married him I had to give up most of my established business and nearly started over on a new project, working day and night sometimes our first year of marriage. He had to make the house payments, but I tried to do utilities even when I was broke. I of course paid my own car payment. He said last night when he married me I had told him I made 60k+ per year, I reminded him how broke I was and how he rubbed it in my face that first year. I did make that, BUT I moved and couldn't run my old business being 3-4 hours away from those towns, a competitor took advantage when I was gone, I knew he would. But my new business is going to make more then my husband's banker salary here soon. Yet I still resent how he patronized me when I was working so hard (even said I was lazy, etc. because I slept in and never started work until 10 am, but I'm self employed and that's a benefit). To this day he'll call me "irresponsible" which is amazing, I beat out three competitors who had money and I worked so hard. I think it's his way of feeling superior to me, always cutting down my business skills.

My husband has been married twice before. He doesn't count the first one as it was the 18 year old thing, only lasted a year. Number 2 was an insane 12 year marriage, he told me so, she ended up cheating and into drugs (of course now I'm wondering if he drove her crazy, before I thought he was right that she was crazy). Then he lived with a woman five years before meeting me. Both of the last two women were "lazy" according to what he said when we were dating, didn't want to work, etc. Of course I thought I could "handle" him and was better then these women... now I know how he nit picks, controls and takes over. I started really giving up around the house, nothing I could do was right anyways. Funny I'll be the fourth one that he's blamed it "all" on, I told him that last night, isnt' there a pattern here? I think he's "barely" starting to wake up - I was far from the type to be a lazy wife and I resented most of the demeaning comments he made to me.

I have read much lately on dom. violence. It's true that few men change who are such control freaks, even two authors admit that after working with them for years. I can see the "little boy" in my husband, and I feel sorry for him in so many ways. Here he's an accomplished banker but has no communications skills and hardly any emotions. He's terribly selfish and thinks the entire world operates around him. When I quit admiring him, which I really did, he flirted with complete bimbos, women who were 20-25 years his junior. I understand some of this can be mid life crisis material BUT I have been so insulted by this. He'd even rub it in my face, oh, that young girl had a crush on me, you ruined it, now she knows how old I really am.

I'm 35, he's 46, yes it's an age difference. It did not bother me when we were dating. I sort of enjoyed that he was so organized and such a good planner. I realize opposites attract but he used it to gain more and more power over me. I 'm not sure if it was purposeful or not, but I honestly started feeling like a child in this marriage. He'd tell me to stop acting like a child when I'd tell him that. I know I'm not as secure inside as I should be, that I didn't have enough outside interests, that I let him start to define who I was. I could have tried harder to ignore his comments, it made it worse that I cryed and got angry, then it validated to him that he was right - I was wrong. It was a vicious circle and the only way I could get some control back was to move out I felt in the end.

Yes, I do think I had some unrealistic expectations of marriage. I expected him to be a certain way. I was raised in a good christian home and there was never any fighting. I thought all the fights were horrible, I wanted to run from the start. I even told him so, that I would get out when my business was doing better - so of course I point the finger at myself for some of his affairs. I think he did want to get this marriage right, he saw it as his last chance to have kids (he doesn't have any) and a family. My mom once said I married a good man, and I needed to "take care" of him. She knows how selfish and focused on my career I can be, and especially so since I was starting virtually a new business. So it's hard for me to just walk away, there's a movie of what I told him that plays back in my head.

We had a horrible fight last night. I knew better and I did egg him on, I don't know why. I am just so filled with rage right now. I was advised to keep it simple, to not get into a battle, to take time and see if the separation won't help and I blew it. He just doesn't seem to have a clue how hurt I am and why. I guess it's wanting to punish him, I know it's not fair. I just want it to be ok, we had so many good times together, it's hard to see it all go downhill. I know much of it was my fault.

Still Trusting: I SHOULD HAVE listened to you, I was TRYING to... but my rage got the best of me last night. I really should have made sure anything we did was quiet, he invited me over to dinner, I said no. I called later with a tax question, I don't know why I had to argue with him. I'm mad at myself, it certainly made things worse not better.

You are in England? If it's sunny you should be outdoors! Are you in London? I love England, I spent some time there in my early 20s, lived up in Scotland a few months too, really enjoyed it. When I was in China I met a man who was actually in the English military, visiting his sister there. His life was so orderly and he was a bit like my husband - wanted everything just right but was amused by someone like me - a free spirit. Anyways we both missed our train (which would mean another entire day waiting for a ticket) so I talked him into hitch hiking with me. I drew up a Chinese symbol of the town we wanted to go to and some truck drivers picked us up. I'm quite sure we stopped in places that had never seen white folks. This English man really had a fun time I think. On the way back the train was full, we had to sit in the isle, in his English accent he finally spoke to someone about it, appaled that he would have to do this. I was having a ball, when he came back I had the entire train car reapeating "watch," etc, I was teaching them English. I got sick and he helped me get on a plane home, he never even flirted with me, was quite a gentlemen - but it's a story of opposites.

Opposites do attract don't they? My husband is a bit like this Englishman an perhaps you in some ways. He likes everything to be orderly and perfect. I accuse him of being a control freak sometimes, but I'm not so sure that's the case completely. He's like a little boy in some ways, inside there's a small boy asking for help. So maybe he chose me on purpose, I'm not so sure - but I certainly have disorganized his life! The shrink who married us said I might just be the best thing for him, because living with me he wouldn't be able to be such a nit picker - I'm the creative type and wouldn't even remember little things. So he said my husband and I would both have to change, to meet in the middle to make this work.

Honestly I don't think I appreciated all the small things he did for me. That was his way of showing his love. I see that in what you've written about your wife as well. You seem quite sad to have lost your wife, disheartened about it. And maybe the next round, if there is one, you can meet in the middle a little better - and change a bit? It's hard for us to change isn't it? Easier to try to control the other person and make them like us. Seems like the opposite thing works great for travel buddies and friends, but in marriage it's really hard at times.

My husband has been abusive but I'll have to say every time he grabbed or bruised me I was majorly in his face having a fit. Sad isn't it, but I was just filled with anger and resentment. I felt like he'd insulted me with his bimbos, I took it personally and now I really don't think it was about me or my looks - it was about some silly midlife crisis. He felt he was getting older in his mid 40s and the young girls made him feel good. A customer of mine who was prone to flirting in his 40s told me that he had no clue how it was affecting his wife, he was just in his own silly world. He said my husband would have to realize how much that hurt's a woman's emotions, that he likely has no clue why I reacted with such rage - he doesn't see it. I know I'm oversensitive. I could have let this go but I continued to fight him about it. It's made it all worse.

Well, that's a day in the life of a psycho marriage in America. I was venting when I posted this, and of course you don't know my husband's side - in a way I have been perhaps a bit spoiled, expecting way too much from a marriage - that it should be a Cinderella story. Reality sucks doesn't it? Sometimes I wish I could go back to my 20s and just hang out at the top of Scotland learning to dance and taking photos, or get back on some train in China with no cares in the world...

Still Trusting and Its Not My Fault Now:

I think I got the two of your posts reversed or confused. One of you warned me not to fight with my husband right now. That's the advice I didn't take... And in the last post I refered to the one I had chatted about who's wife left and he wanted a hug. I'm sorry I think I addressed the post to the wrong person and added more to it. Hope you can sort through it all..

I'm glad you got the hug you wanted and didn't go at each other's throats! It's tempting isn't it, but it makes it all so much worse...

Newly:

Yes, there has been verbal abuse from my part in fact I'll have to admit I started the go rounds perhaps. I was disappointed in the marriage initally and I started verbally blowing up at him - it's emotional abuse, a shrink told my husband that. And likely it was, but he was hard on me, always nit picking and trying to "fix" me. It drove me crazy that I let it build and build. I have recently read a book on Women and Anger that explained a lot of it to me - and gave me ideas of how to stop it. I know it didn't help at all, made it all so much worse. I hate my horrible temper.

Yes I was in denial for a time, to protect myself and so that I wouldn't have to consider a divorce. I realize from reading that much of this is about power and control - hard to have a partnership when someone is so controlling. The normal rules don't even apply. It seems like if I tried to be so nice and perfect, he'd still find ways to cut me down. Like I lost weight, 10 pounds that I had gained, yet instead of compliments he found something else about me that wasn't quite to "his" standards, yet he could gain all the weight he wanted.

True, I'd ask all the questions of why in a marriage would you want to cut someone down as well. Partly my husband grew up as the oldest child, his mom worked, and he was responsible for the household. He took over and became the caretaker. That's been his role, and I think he did the same with me, treated me like the little sister he didn't have - but I wasn't one of the boys, I couldn't take it emotionally like a guy could. If I moved things, or tried new recipes he'd be right there telling me what to do all the time - I'd tell him to leave me alone, and he couldn't most of the time. It drove me insane and before I blew up at him - I told him over and over I couldn't handle the control and the cutdowns. It made me feel like a child, stop! Now that I'm gone he asks me why I resorted to such anger and rage - he just wounldn't listen to me, I told him over and over again to cut it out - then I started just exploding over it. No excuse but...

True, I'm beginning to think I won't ever understand him. I read a book or two on abusive men. I guess he's not just into a bit of control, he fits the mold perfectly. They don't want a "wife" they want what one author called a "teddy bear", someone to be there, who they can drag around to all of their activities (they could care less about yours or your friends/family) - and they just freak when you are different from them. Teddy bears aren't supposed to think, feel, have different ideas. It's like they aren't developed emotionally - and if they get scared they go find another Teddy Bear, someone vulnerable (like the bimbos my husband would flirt with) to make themselves feel good again. It's really sad, I can see how insecure my big controlling husband really is inside. The books say they can "wake up" and only if they hurt will they do so. Dobson has a book called Tough Love and it recommends leaving for a time if there is abuse - because it might be a "wake up call" for them to stop it. I felt like staying enabled us both to continue the viscious cycle and I wanted off of that rollar coaster ride.

You are likely right, I'll never really understand him. Everything is backwards to me, the books have helped me begin to comprehend where he's coming from - but I'll never really get it.