It might be expected that, after having been deserted and defrauded and defamed by the one person I had trusted most in all the world, I would have trouble forgiving. It might be expected that I would have difficulty trusting again.

Neither expectation has been borne out.

I understand why my (ex-)wife did what she did: I understand that her actions originated from her own fear and pain. I also understand that what she has done (and is doing) to herself is far worse than anything she did to me. So although I know I have cause for anger, it is sorrow and compassion that I feel instead.

I also know that I am a much better, stronger, and wiser person for what I went through. God is good: I believe He kept us together long enough so that by the time my wife left, I could have no real doubt that I had done everything I possibly could for her and for our marriage. Yes, there are things I could have done differently had I known then what I know now, but...I honestly do not believe it would have made any real difference. I do not believe anyone could have been a better husband to her than I was. Or a better friend.

As for the matter of trusting again, I have discovered that I am more ready and able to trust now than I ever was before. I have already lived through betrayal, and I know that with God's help I can survive it. Some risks are worth taking; and having already looked once into the face of the enemy, I need not amplify my assessment of the risks with a fear of the unknown.

So what's the problem? Have I not achieved an exalted state of self-confidence and serenity? Am I not ready now to face anything the world has to offer...or throw at me?

Heh heh heh.

It seems not.

After having lived for years with someone whom I loved more than life itself, but who seemed to find my very existence a source of unbearable distress and who turned every gift from me into an unwanted debt, it has become extremely difficult for me to reach out to someone I care about - not because I am afraid of getting hurt, but because I am afraid of hurting her - or even just causing her discomfort or annoyance. I believe I have something worth offering, or I would just stay away; but I would much rather be rejected than humored or endured, and it is very hard for me to trust that she will just tell me if she wants me to back off or go away.

<sigh>

I reckon it's just God being God again. Every time I think I have found a perch of relative stability, God comes along and knocks me off it, pointing out something else I need to work on...

GDP,

R U perhaps expecting too much out of yourself? A bit of a wall to shield further pain?

U know only those who care would bear the weight of these types of questions. Why? Because everyone needs to heal. Why? Because all who have been hurt (whether victims or self inflicted) need to heal.

Who heals, how quickly and how well is up to each of us. U R a man of great knowledge but the knowledge doesn't show it's benefit until it is applied and used as wisdom.

What am I saying? Time heals all wounds. Don't read too much into your heart but now is the time to allow your heart (with the proper precautions) to find happiness. It may or may not include another but you will still be happy.

I often wonder how my grandmothers did it or even the ones before them. Despite the worst the world could throw at them, they came up and survived. Survived with a smile and enough love to give even us little grandchildren a start in life. Created happy memories which I will cherish for as long as I live.

I hope that one day, I can do the same. I give that hope to you and others here at MB.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>GDP, R U perhaps expecting too much out of yourself? A bit of a wall to shield further pain?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing is, it's not my own pain that I'm trying to shield against - except insofar as it pains me to cause pain to someone else.

But of course I am expecting too much of myself. In order to be confident of not causing pain to someone, I would either have to be able to accurately predict that person's response to anything I might do or say, or I would have to stay out of that person's life completely.

What's happening is that I am struggling with the temptation to take on the responsibility of protecting someone else, when instead I need to grant that person the dignity of at least being treated as if she is capable of handling her own feelings. By not giving her that kind of respect, I would be inappropriately projecting my (ex-)wife's incapacities onto someone who has not demonstrated such incapacities, and I would be preventing any possibility of a mature relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Who heals, how quickly and how well is up to each of us. U R a man of great knowledge but the knowledge doesn't show it's benefit until it is applied and used as wisdom.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true. I think I know what I have to do, and I am determined to do it. I am just surprised at how hard it is to take each step, and then how hard it is to keep from second-guessing myself afterward. It's not as if I am in a situation where I know I need to do everything just right in order to achieve a desired outcome - I don't even know what I want to have happen! This is seat-of-the-pants flying, and I know that trial-and-error is part of the process.

I am willing to make those errors, but it's taking all of my will.

yeah, GDP, you are a mess!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

hey, listen, you are taking this mating / compatibility soliloquy way too seriously, and could you be creating the imacculate intellectual and emotional defense to keep you from accepting that your W ran away? to keep you from believing that you can only be married once, and that you can't make the same mistakes again?
or do you believe that your X represents how all women will treat you?

the problem is you are intellectualizing something that really is an abstract concept.

wiftty

Hello GDP!

I don't post much anymore, but I've noticed lately that you seem to be posting from a generally brighter viewpoint than, say, a year ago.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
After having lived for years with someone whom I loved more than life itself, but who seemed to find my very existence a source of unbearable distress and who turned every gift from me into an unwanted debt, it has become extremely difficult for me to reach out to someone I care about - not because I am afraid of getting hurt, but because I am afraid of hurting her - or even just causing her discomfort or annoyance. I believe I have something worth offering, or I would just stay away; but I would much rather be rejected than humored or endured, and it is very hard for me to trust that she will just tell me if she wants me to back off or go away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I understand what you are talking about. But, maybe it is just plain old-fashioned fear of rejection. You desperately (perhaps that is too strong a word) want to make somebody happy - and if you fail, well... you failed - which ain't fun.

If it turns out that the woman you now seek to please is not pleased, it may not have much to do with you. So... why get so stressed about it?

-AD

<small>[ May 16, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

GDP,

I don't think you are messed up. You went through a rough time, like most of us have, and are now evaluating what went wrong, how to avoid this situation again, etc. It's normal. Behavior is conditioned, and you do not want to repeat an unpleasant or painful experience if at all possible.

I understand what you mean about fear, not of rejection, but that people won't have the ability to reject and instead string you along into misery. To be honest, it is a fear that I have that I will probably take into future relationships.

It might be best to take a break from dating or relationships if you are feeling this way. I've just gone through the divorce, and I have no real desire to get into a relationship. I just need a break. You probably do too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong>.....it is very hard for me to trust....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said it...it's very hard for you to trust...that the other person will to be honest with you about what she wants.

That's pretty much what the trust issue is all about.....trusting that they will be honest with you.

So yes, I think there still IS a trust issue, although maybe it's not rearing it's ugly head exactly the way you thought it would.

I too, entered another relationship last year feeling fully confident that I was ready to love and trust fully, openly and honestly. One thing I noticed was this:

Many people who has not been thru what we all have been thru (and even some who have) haven't done the work! They haven't necessarily sorted thru what happened and learned from it. They haven't talked about it. They haven't dealt with the real issues.

I think THAT to me, is one of the biggest fears I have entering a new relationship...that they've gone thru the event (d-day, end of marriage, etc.), but not LEARNED anything from it.

Perhaps that is what you are realizing...that the other person hasn't taken the time to KNOW what she wants, therefore may not be able to TELL you what you want to know.

Just a thought...

Aloha,
Ms.O

why does everyone assume that trust is a generalized trait, that is determined from their one experience?

statistically, the results are not significant, inconclusive. we cannot estimate the population's trustworthiness from one sample.

secondly, why is it that people don't educate themselves about how to spot red flags that make trusting a person as a more informed decision.

I look at trust as an individual issue, a part of that person's unique character, and not reflective of everyone's character. how did they grow up? what were their experiences that made them learn about trust?

did they ever have a job where trust was a life or death situation? i have, makes a big difference. you learn right away who you can and who you can't by their actions.

so read up and educate yourself people. and don't assume and generalize.

sg

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: sportsguy ]</small>

Hello my friend, it has been a while since I had anything to say that was geared toward you rather than vice versa.

Well, I too have thought much on the subject about just how to trust the fate of another. I have not met anyone, rather I have been pulling the Heisman at every turn trying to stay sane until the divorce is final, (mediation next Monday and could be signed by the end of next week). However, I have thought long and hard about this very subject. HOW can I trust that they will be honest and up front with their feelings? I think that while there is no way in which to guarantee this, I think that the best way in which to help this unconditional reality and openness is to do it yourself.

I have a feeling that you are not being as open with your friends as you want them to be with you... I don't know this, however, if you are very up front and repeatedly state that you want them to tell you everything, then you will set the tone of openness that will allow them to be themselves and not harbor things.

This is a must for me. I let things that bothered me slide but I think that they came back at me because they didn't NOT BOTHER ME... I just didn't confront them. I think that I chose other avenues with which to portray the disgruntlement that I found in so many things that my ex did, and I absolutely believe that she did this 10x over what I did. I thought that I loved her, and that was all that mattered. Well, that is true to a point, however the reality is that these constant needle pricks will end up drawing enough blood to do damage given time. And the sticks on top of sticks end up drawing more blood because they are being inflicted on an already open wound. Had that event taken place in a vacuum, nothing to serious would have occured, but since it occurred in a already open wound, that [censored] found a vital artery just waiting to be injured. (Can't tell I am a doc can you).

If you are open, and honest with her ALL THE TIME, it might seem as though you are nit picking in some degree, however, I think that if you are able to work with her, and she is able to respond in kind, then you both will be so much better off for it.

You want her to be open and honest. I know... The worst thing about this is the deceipt for me. The telling me "I love you" on her way to her lover's house. The acting like a responsible person while she stays out until 3am with her "friend". This is the hardest part. Can you trust that what she says is what she believes? There is never a guarantee, however, I know that even though unfounded and actually only as a 'reason' to act like she did; she felt that I was being dishonest, having affairs, etc. All the things that she was doing, so she felt that since I was being ingenuous, that made it OK for her to be the same. Even though in her heart, I know that she didn't believe what she was trying to tell herself... NO ONE could be that dense.

But, without my constant openness, because I felt that 'It just wasn't worth it." or "I love her so it doesn't matter.", I laid the very framework that my ex used to build her lies upon.

So I say to you, and I hope to be able to live by it in the future. Be open in yourself. Create the atmosphere that shows that you are not holding back, and that what she sees is the REAL thing. Then, she will be much more obliged to reply in kind. There will be no guarantee, however, I truly believe that you will have much more of a chance to get what you want out of your relationships. And if there is a problem, there will be OVERT and PERIODIC chances with which to bring it up.

Also, I think asking her point blank about things that you think she might be concerned about might help her to let you know that they are OK to talk about. Like, "I was wondering how you felt about last weekend, when I went fishing with the guys rather than to your mother's house." This gives her the opportunity to say, "I didn't care" or "I wish that you had come with me. It made me feel bad." But that might only happen if you have shown her the same respect.

You will only want a 'big girl'. One that can handle a little strife and come back bouncing. You don't want a stuffer... You don't want a wimp... You want someone that can tell you when they are happy as well as sad, and have the confidence that this one thing will not break the relationship. If you don't have this, you will never be able to do what you want in your relationship. You will forever be afraid of standing up for yourself when YOU are hurt. You will go out of your way to avoid ANY confrontation. You will do everything within your power to negate any disagreement, but that will not make it go away... it will only push it down to arise inappropriately in the future.

Well, I reread this stuff, and hope that over the next few years I can live by it. I just know that what I want is complete openness. I would rather disagree with an opinion or action openly and still love her rather than disagree privately and seethe against her. I want her to feel the same.

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Wow. Some pretty diverse viewpoints here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>hey, listen, you are taking this mating / compatibility soliloquy way too seriously, and could you be creating the imacculate intellectual and emotional defense to keep you from accepting that your W ran away? to keep you from believing that you can only be married once, and that you can't make the same mistakes again? or do you believe that your X represents how all women will treat you?

the problem is you are intellectualizing something that really is an abstract concept.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, wiftty, I am intellectualizing abstract concepts, but...that is something I'm good at!

Actually, I'm pretty sure that none of your guesses here are correct. The fact is, I have been shocked to discover just how ready I am to consider a new relationship. But...the woman I'm interested in is not ready. As just about everyone on this forum can understand, there are situations in which it is far healthier not to date. Time and again, we hear stories from people who got involved in new relationships too soon, with unhappy results. I happen to be an extraordinarily patient man, and I am all for this woman taking as much time as she needs. I also want to give her as much space as she needs. But I don't want to just walk away. Finding the right balance is delicate, and I can't do it by myself. Unless I do choose to back off completely, I'm going to have to trust her to establish the boundaries she needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AD:
<strong>When my W says that I ruined her life, I babble back that I believe it - that it really is a great tragedy that she married me and that otherwise she would have been happy. But, I don't really believe it. Not that I should say that she would neccesarily always have been unhappy either, but I think really it's not much about me. Probably that was true with your W too - and if it turns out that the woman you now seek to please is not pleased, it may not have much to do with you either. So... why get so stressed about it?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm. You're right, I know that my (ex-)wife's problems weren't really about me; and indeed, I believe that I actually did her a lot of good. I gave her every reason to believe that I loved her and that she could trust me; and I like to imagine that if she ever chooses to open her heart again, she should be able to look back on our relationship and know that some men are not like her father.

So, if I treat this new woman with honesty and respect and she too ends up falling apart "because" of me, why should I kick myself for giving her the opportunity to benefit? It is only my own attitude and actions that I am responsible for, and if she can't be trusted not to turn my offerings into a negative force when I have the best of intentions, then imagine how she might allow herself to be affected by someone with less sensitivity or integrity.

In other words, if she's going to damage herself anyway, isn't it best to give her the softest hammer possible?

But, that argument is flawed because there's no guarantee that there would be another hammer. Wouldn't most men, when confronted with the "I'm not dating" line, just look elsewhere? I know that in my (ex-)wife's case, she had successfully fended off all potential suitors for years before I came along and bypassed all her defenses with my unconventional approach.

I am acutely aware that such a thing could happen again, and I do not want to be responsible for interfering with a growth process that would otherwise have run to happy completion if only I hadn't gotten in the way.

My only comfort is that I still believe my wife was probably better off with me than she would have been without me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hoping4best:
<strong>It might be best to take a break from dating or relationships if you are feeling this way. I've just gone through the divorce, and I have no real desire to get into a relationship. I just need a break. You probably do too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I think I've had the break. My (ex-)wife hasn't spoken or communicated a single word to me in nearly three years, and I have not been doing anything even remotely resembling "dating". I believe my problem is that I need to start practicing the relational skills which I have allowed to remain dormant for so long (and which got out of balance before that).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ms.O:
<strong>You said it...it's very hard for you to trust...that the other person will to be honest with you about what she wants.

That's pretty much what the trust issue is all about.....trusting that they will be honest with you.

...Perhaps that is what you are realizing...that the other person hasn't taken the time to KNOW what she wants, therefore may not be able to TELL you what you want to know.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my old friend, I reckon you've put your finger on it exactly. Except I'd add that not having had the time to do the work can be as problematic as not having taken the time.

For me I think the real problem is not so much that it's difficult for me to trust that this person will be honest with me (although that's certainly a big part of it) - but rather that I am very much aware that she cannot be any more honest with me than she is with herself. And we all have our blind spots.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly Confused:
<strong>I have thought long and hard about this very subject. HOW can I trust that they will be honest and up front with their feelings? I think that while there is no way in which to guarantee this, I think that the best way in which to help this unconditional reality and openness is to do it yourself.

...I have a feeling that you are not being as open with your friends as you want them to be with you... I don't know this, however, if you are very up front and repeatedly state that you want them to tell you everything, then you will set the tone of openness that will allow them to be themselves and not harbor things.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although most of your post deals with a closer relationship than I am concerned with right now, the approach you have described is in fact the one I have taken. I have gone to possibly absurd lengths to communicate exactly where I stand and how I feel.

I'm afraid my persona on these boards is much more secretive than I tend to be in person. I actually prefer openness; but these boards are extremely public, and even if I don't care all that much about protecting my own privacy, I feel an obligation to protect the privacy of those who are (or were) close to me.

Thanks, all. This has been helpful. I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I am sorry, I was unaware that you were out of the "game" for 3 years. Maybe I should modify my statement. Rather than worry about a relationship, try a relationship where you just go out and have fun with the person you are seeing. I'm not saying to treat them lightly, but rather don't go into the relationship with expectations of a long term relationship. Go out and have fun and enjoy her company. If it turns into something, great; if not, well, there are plenty of good women out there.

My point is that maybe you aren't ready for something heavy. Just go out and have fun. You deserve it.

GDP,

I'm not sure, but I think this little Feeler person may be able to hit this nail on the head. There are several issues going on here all at once, and they kind of intertwine and overlap, so try to keep them all straight:

1) Doppleganger--you are fighting/struggling with the ghost of your ex-wife and her reactions. Trust me, my friend, I do this a lot myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I virtually have to remind myself that YOU are not HIM, and you will not react as he reacted, and you will not feel as he felt, etc.

Now, I suspect you are better able to deal with this than I am because you come at it from a Thinker POV, and I come at it from Feelings and Emotions. BUT, the struggle is similar. A part of you still hears your XW's reactions and you still struggle with your new interest being hurt like your XW was hurt and reacting to you like your XW did. In other words, you are afraid.

GDP, keep reminding yourself that your new interest is NOT your XW and will not react or feel or think like she did. Oh, there may be some similarities (after all, you chose the last wife because of things you liked about her), but your new person is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT person. You know what I'm talking about. You know how many times I have been utterly FLOORED by your reaction to something because I was expecting to be torn to shreds or put down and I wasn't. You are an entirely different person, so my expectations have to be eliminated and/or changed! You new lady is ALTOGETHER her own whole person--entirely different--so your expectations have to be eliminated and/or changed. In computer programmer terms, you can not over-write the WIFE1.dba database with GIRLFRIEND2.dba She needs her own whole database created from scratch.

2) Rescue--You are trying to rescue your XW by protecting this new lady from feeling anything your XW felt. In other words (you said it yourself) you feel responsible to the new lady to avoid doing TO HER what was done to your XW--even if it was done inadvertently. Well, this is really rather easy...it's not your job to rescue your new interest. That's HER side of the street and HER job. By denying her the respect and confidence that she can take care of her own issues and ALLOWING HER TO DO SO, you are acting as if you are diminishing her to "needing to be protected." I know this sounds odd, but it is HER JOB to clarify her boundaries, set them, enforce them, and protect herself--and it is her job to communicate all this to you. Now, you can ASK--but it is not your job to "guess" or "calculate" or "figure it out." Let her stand up for herself! It gives her courage and confidence AND shows her that you trust her.

3) Lack of time/knowledge of herself--well, in the short course of her lifetime this may be one dilemna...that at her current state of life she may not have had the time or taken the time to know herself. At this point, that piece of the puzzle is a mystery (in other words, we don't know for sure if she has had the time and maturity to "know herself"), so you frankly just don't know! She may have the time and maturity to know herself--or she may not have taken the time or she may not have the maturity. The only way you can find out is to LET HER TRY. There is no way you will find the piece to this puzzle if you do not give her the opportunity to reveal to you if she knows herself or not! Plus, remember that life is a journey--so she will probably know SOME parts of herself, be in the middle of discovering still other parts of herself, and have no clue about still OTHER parts of herself but now that there's an interested person it's worth discovering!

4) Lack of "practice"--okay, let's be blunt. You are not the "cutsey/flirtsey" dating kind of guy who had hundreds of female friends while married and who know exactly how to talk to and win the opposite sex. Right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> So you are out of practice! In fact, in your whole life, you basically loved one woman and married her, so it's not as if you have abundant data from which to pull regarding "dating". So my point here is that this is exactly PRACTICE. You are going to completely mess up sometimes! And then, I know you, you'll will file that away in your databank and say "never do THAT again" or "note to self: THIS works!" Start to accept the fact now that this will NOT be perfect and may not even go well at all, but as in all lessons in life, you will LEARN from it! The key to things like this is not to avoid stumbling...it is to learn how you stumbled so you don't stumble for the same reason next time. So PRACTICE. Your dating muscles are going to get SORE--and you may even discover that some of your dating skeletal structures are twisted and need straightening. You will need to train your dating mind and body to work in sync. PRACTICE!

5) Intellectualizing--Well this is rather obvious isn't it?? Yep, wiffty hit it right on the head--you are intellectualizing too much. Pure and simple. Remember that one of your credos this year is to ACT not think (and of course I don't mean act without thinking--I mean don't allow thinking to preclude you from ACTING). I know you like to think and think and think--then analyze, evaluation and consider some more! But you are spinning yourself into a web-cocoon of inaction by thinking so much. Do you know her enough to trust that she will protect herself? Maybe--so take a tiny leap of faith. See how that goes. Don't sit and ponder the possible outcomes of leaping and what your response to all the outcomes will be and how she might be hurt by your possible responses... Do you see where that leads?? You are sitting there THINKING (not doing anything) and while you are sitting and not moving, she is waiting and then leaving because you are not doing anything!

As a Feeler personality type, I have had to train my brain to occasionally STOP FEELING (or at least recognize that this is an emotion and it will go away) and wait for the thinking to start. I'm almost exactly the opposite of you. I feel so extremely and so much that I ACT--and then when the feelings subside, I start to think. You tend to think so extremely and so much that you don't act--and then when the thinking subside, you start to feel. Part of your PRACTICE (see #4 above) is going to be to discipline yourself to recognize "this is over-analyzing and I need to act" (just as I have had to discipline myself to recognize "this is a feeling and I need to wait"). Okay?? I know it's hard, but don't analyze everything into the ground.

Hope this helps ya! You're not a mess--just out of practice. I'm sure you'll get better at it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

CJ

Ooohhh... I just love CJ! Leave it to a woman to put life back into a man's problem. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No offense GDP but you guys (like many of us venusians as Redhat likes to call us) want to put it all in a box or equation. Keep it logical? Well life is anything but logical, yet it survives and grows. So must we.

Remember GDP, you can't control your new friend any more than she can you. Also it is a bit unfair to expect her reactions to be like others from your past (including your W). Let's put the shoe on the other foot, would you like to be compared to one of her former beaus?

Yet logic is good and when combined in modest amounts with a good attitude, trust and love you have a well rounded life with choices we learn to live with.

Awhhhh the complexities of life. Wouldn't have it any other way. Then again, do we really have a choice?

take care, you are not way off just a bit too logical. But we like you anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hoping4best:
<strong>I am sorry, I was unaware that you were out of the "game" for 3 years. Maybe I should modify my statement. Rather than worry about a relationship, try a relationship where you just go out and have fun with the person you are seeing. I'm not saying to treat them lightly, but rather don't go into the relationship with expectations of a long term relationship. Go out and have fun and enjoy her company. If it turns into something, great; if not, well, there are plenty of good women out there.

My point is that maybe you aren't ready for something heavy. Just go out and have fun. You deserve it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's no need to apologize for trying to help. If everybody waited until they had all the facts, then nobody would ever get helped at all.

However, I think I am temperamentally incapable of "dating" for fun. While I have been on various group outings that included women (in fact, earlier this month I had dinner where it was just me and two attractive twenty-something women - how's that for fast living? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), I believe it is wiser not to date someone unless I think there might be at least the possibility of a serious relationship with that person. And while I know very well that there are many good women out there, there are very few whom I would consider as candidates for that kind of relationship.

An additional complication is that my idea of "fun" tends to involve deep conversations and the sharing of personal details. That's dangerous territory if the intention is to keep things "light".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>I'm not sure, but I think this little Feeler person may be able to hit this nail on the head.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, CJ, I think you know very well that you are exactly right on every count. And, in truth, I already know most if not all of this - but the reinforcement does help and I am grateful for it. I am continuing on plan despite my emotional discomfort, and I am not allowing my intellectualizing to paralyze me (it's just costing me sleep - or maybe that's still the effects of infatuation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I am actually feeling a little bit more relaxed about things now. I had a good chat with someone who fills sort of an older-brother role for the woman I have tied myself in knots over, and while he assured me that I would hear from him if I got out of line, he also assured me that in his estimation she was capable of dealing with me on her own. Both assurances bring me relief. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Also it is a bit unfair to expect her reactions to be like others from your past (including your W). Let's put the shoe on the other foot, would you like to be compared to one of her former beaus?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Truthfully? I don't know anything about any former beaus of hers, but I'm betting that I'd compare favorably. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously though, I know it's unfair and unreasonable to anticipate the same reactions. Unfortunately, it's also ingrained. But at least I have the wit to see and understand what I'm wrestling with, and so have a chance to neutralize most of the adverse effects. (I hope.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>take care, you are not way off just a bit too logical. But we like you anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aw, shucks. It's nice to know that I can be liked in spite of my flaws. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I understand that your general dating tendencies are to think long term. Don't get me wrong, mine are too. I think that might have been part of the problem. When I first started dating my X, I was thinking that the goal of every dating relationship should be to end in marriage. By thinking along these lines, I may have overlooked how we interacted together and how that would affect our relationship down the road. I rushed into things.

I enjoy deep conversation too. That's part of my problem when talking to women (especially those my age). It seems that very few of them know anything but work, shopping, and reality TV (I don't really care for either of these). To the ladies out there who don't fit this description, I apologize for this generalization, but I can probably count on one hand the number of women I've had extended discussions with that don't fit this description (maybe it's because they're all young women). My interests center around sports, politics / current affairs, and reading. I just don't have any desire to watch and talk about TV shows like Survivor, Real World, Joe Stupid Rich Guy, or Are You Hot?

I hope things work out for you.