D/D folks:

I wanted to send you part of an email that I sent to my stbxH. The reason I wanted you to see it is that I think I avoided self-sabotage and I'm a held to my boundaries of being treated with decency and respect. Please let me know what you think:

(This is PART of the email)

***************
[H's name]:

I recognize that making the corrections to the [document] is a large project that will take several hours. I also recognize that you are exhausted from your trip to [state] and that you had a difficult day, ... I ALSO recognize that this is a [his company] project and that I am under no obligation to assist you NOR will I get any kind of payment for the hours I was offering.

Knowing all this, I still offered to help you with typing in the corrections to the [document]. I offered to skip [a meeting] if that was what was necessary to get the changes done timely. I offered to stay up all night
AND print one copy of the darn thing! All of this was literally offered out of the goodness of my heart. It would have been of NO benefit to me and a ton of benefit to you. I offered to give of myself and my time to make your life easier, when that is not something that is offered to me.

The "price" for doing this extremely large project on extremely short notice was: a) Get the [document] files to me in a timely manner--meaning I did not want to have it sprung on me at 9pm that I was expected to get it all done
before morning. Yes...I need to plan my night a little. I am not manic, and so I do not have the wild energy that you do to work 24/7. If I need to stay up all night, so be it, but I don't want to kill myself over this project--I would pace myself in a way that works for me. b) Appreciate my offer, as in: "CJ I know that you do not have to do this and you're doing it just to make my life easier. Thank you. That is very nice of you and I appreciate the effort." c) If it is a five hour project, do not give me three hours to do it and then call me for the next two hours asking if it's done yet. Give me six hours for the typing AND allot the extra hour it will
take for driving back and forth (which I was also willing to do) and for explaining your notes and corrections to me. Let me call you when it is
done.

(The way things are right now) I really do not see any way that I could have avoided being blamed or criticized in this situation. If I DID the project, but did not get it until 9pm because you would not make up your mind, I would feel EXHAUSTED and like you didn't care and that I told you I wanted it as early as I could so I wouldn't feel exhausted but you just USED me.
If I DIDN'T do the project, I (told you that I was afraid of being told I ) was backing out and letting you down and not following through on my
commitments, etc. No way to save face. No way to get to the end of this with a job well done and appreciation.

I have reviewed my requests for doing this large of a project, and I believe they were reasonable...not demanding or b*tchy or spiteful in the least. It is reasonable to not want an enormous project at the last moment. It is
reasonable to want to have the appropriate time to do a huge project...I'm human! I do not have the manic energy that you do to work all night without a break, nor (at 41 years old) can I run on "coffee". It is reasonable to expect to be appreciated for offering such a big favor, and it is reasonable to expect to be treated civilly and respectfully. It is reasonable to want to have MY convenience be one of the considerations. If you were asking this big a favor of anyone else ([boss], [counselor], or your mom), you would take it to them as early as possible--you would give them time to get it done--you would appreciate that they made time for you--you would treat them GRATEFULLY, not hatefully--and you would drive it to them and pick it up and consider their convenience! I'm not expecting any more from you than you would offer to anyone else.
***************

In the past, he would have probably come by tonight at 9pm and dumped it on me, I would have been up all night mad as a wet hen, and then he would have somehow blamed me for a bad job. Instead, this time when he began behaving badly I just said I was not willing to do it without my requests being met. He may stew--he may not...but I do know that I stood by my boundaries and did not allow myself to be put in a situation that would have potentially led to being hurt. We are getting a divorce--I was making a nice offer--and I do indeed expect to be treated civilly.

What do you think?

CJ

P.S. Before anyone even says it, it has already dawned on me that it was foolish to make the offer in the first place! That's the first step of where I got "off track"--but I think I got myself back ON track, and that's the part about which I'd like to know what you'all think.

I have this feeling these are all words you have said over and over.
You are right. You should not have done this project. Did you end up getting paid for this abuse?
Stop explaining yourself to him. He knows.
Next time either don't do it or make rules and stick to them.
1. You want to be paid and how much.
2. You do the work and he is allowed to asd for 5 corrections.
3. He has to have it turned in to you by a reasonable time you set up.
He's taking advantage of you. He wouldn't treat an employee this way.
Just say no.
Make a life choice.
Get your back up woman! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aly

Okay, perhaps I wrote this in a confusing way. He went on a long trip out-of-state and returned to a large typing project...corrections on a document. I volunteered to do the large project for him if he would:

a) get the document to me early--I would not take it at 9pm at night only to be told I had to have it done by morning;

b) appreciate my effort to help him out and make his life easier;

c) give me an appropriate amount of time to get the project done, taking into account drive times and explaining times, and not call me every other hour to "see if it's done yet"--that's too much pressure.

He refused to even consider whether he wanted me or someone else to do the project until 8pm. He refused to acknowledge that my offer to help was nice and not an obligation. He refused to give me 4 hours to do a 4 hour project--he wanted me to do the project at his house all night long (leaving the kids home alone over night).

Since he would not meet my criteria, I did not do the project for him.

Upon reflecting on this whole situation, after the fact, I realized that I was trying to control my stbxH from getting angry--if I was nice and running around to please him, I would avoid the anger. That is incorrect. In reality, I can not control how he will respond, and furthermore, his very consistent pattern has been to use me and get angry anyway. Being nice to him does not and never has resulted in him being nice back.

Soooo...I see the error in my thinking to offer to do this project in the first place. However, as I said, I realized that after the fact. If he had chosen to abide by my limits/requirements to do this project, I intended to fulfill the offer. I guess the part that I was somewhat proud of was that I had never said, "Here is what I need in order to do this" and then when he refused to do what I need, said "No. I will not do it."

What I was wondering out loud is this: do other people tend to agree with me that my requests were reasonable and rational? What I hear from my stbxH is that I was a b*tch, it has to be my way or no way, why the h*ll should he appreciate my work...that kind of thing. (In other words, verbal and emotional abuse.) What I was trying to determine is using the "Anybody Else" standard...if he were to ask anyone other than me to do this favor for him, how would he treat them? That's how I came up with my requests! And please notice that they were REQUESTS not commandments written in stone. If he had said, "I just can't get it to you until 9pm, but I will do two sections if you will do the rest" or "I just can't get it to you until 9pm, but the deadline is not tomorrow morning but the NEXT day" I would have reasonably considered it.

I realize this may seem strange to people. To you'all you may think "Well, DUH--of course her requests were reasonable." But I have great difficulty in establishing my boundaries. I was physically and sexually abused as a child and then married an abusive man, so "normal" boundaries are not something I just SEE. I'm learning to see them, and from what I can tell my requests were within reason. If so, I think I'm getting the hang of this boundaries stuff. If not, perhaps I need to tweek my ideas and definitions a bit.

Does that make more sense???

CJ

Hmm.

Is it reasonable to offer to help someone who has abused you and is unrepentant? Well no, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate to consider this an "error in thinking". We don't choose to perform acts of kindness or love because they are reasonable things to do; we do such things because they reflect our character (or God's character at work within us).

Is it reasonable to place conditions on an offer of help, and to rescind the offer when those conditions are not met? Certainly - and conditions regarding time constraints are so basic that it could be considered unreasonable not to set them, especially in situations where prior experience has revealed that it is not safe to assume that sufficient notice or time will be granted in the absence of explicitly stated conditions.

Is it reasonable to request appreciation for help? This one I'm not sure about. It's certainly a bit unusual to ask for it. In general, it's probably reasonable to expect it, since normal human interactions do involve appreciation for freely given assistance. However, if prior experience with a particular individual has shown that appreciation is not likely to be forthcoming, then it seems to me that if your motive in making an offer is to receive appreciation, it is more reasonable not to make the offer in the first place. Although you can request specific behavior, I think requesting a specific attitude is asking a lot.

And, speaking solely for myself, I can't remember the last time I did something in order to be appreciated. Do I want to be appreciated? Yes. But I choose my actions according to my own attitude, not someone else's. If it's the right thing for me to do, then it's the right thing for me to do, regardless of how someone else may feel about it. We all have to own our own attitudes and feelings, and we need to let everyone else take responsibility for their attitudes and feelings.

Is it reasonable to use the "Anybody Else" standard? This one I'm even less sure about. In government and business, the idea that everyone should be equal is admirable. But in personal and social situations I don't treat everyone alike, and I don't expect anyone else to treat me like they treat every other person. I mean, why should I expect someone to treat me like a close personal friend if I am merely an acquaintance? And should I feel guilty if I grant a lot more attention to my spouse or my child than to my next-door neighbor?

When my wife got me out of bed in the wee hours of the morning to type up a paper for her that was due that day, I didn't care whether it was a reasonable thing to do or not. I did it because I wanted to help her out - and there's probably no one else I would have done it for.

I think part of the problem here, CJ, is that you didn't make a clear distinction in your own mind between a business relationship and a personal relationship, and I rather doubt that your STBXH is even capable of making such a distinction.

All the same, big kudos for enforcing the boundaries you set!

Oh, and another thing...

I don't believe you owed your STBXH an explanation for why you enforced your boundaries. I don't see anything wrong with your giving him that explanation, but I wouldn't expect it to do any good...

{{{CJ}}}
The hugs are because I empathize with your need to be "good" and to get that acknowledgement from your H.

Right on to GDP, you hit the nail on the head when you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you didn't make a clear distinction in your own mind between a business relationship and a personal relationship, and I rather doubt that your STBXH is even capable of making such a distinction.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he's anything like my STBXH, he's definitely NOT capable. You have to give up the notion that he will see you as anything but a convenient target on which to project all his own personal pain. Excuse me if I'm projecting too much here.

I relate to your situation, not only to the similarities between our STBX's, but the desire, if not craving, to be acknowledged for all the work I/we have done. You've given up the business he abandoned, you've offered to help him with a project, and you want appreciation. YOU ARE BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE. I know because I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt to prove it!

You are an intelligent, capable, hard-working, clever, creative, funny, spiritual woman and it does not matter what he thinks of you.

GDP,

As always, you have made me think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Is it reasonable to offer to help someone who has abused you and is unrepentant? Well no, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate to consider this an "error in thinking". We don't choose to perform acts of kindness or love because they are reasonable things to do; we do such things because they reflect our character (or God's character at work within us).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay--well you know me well enough to know that I am a "helper" kind of person. I feel self-satisfaction when I am able to help someone else, and thus, since it is something I generally enjoy, I made the offer without too much thought. I guess it was a random act of kindness, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> The "error in thinking" was not so much that I shouldn't help people or be kind--but rather the error was that I do not want to attempt to prevent stbxH's anger by "being nice." This is being controlling. If I were to live through this situation again, with my stbxH and his history and current life choices, I would probably respond with, "Boy that shoulds like it will take a long time. What do you plan to do about it?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Is it reasonable to place conditions on an offer of help, and to rescind the offer when those conditions are not met? Certainly - and conditions regarding time constraints are so basic that it could be considered unreasonable not to set them, especially in situations where prior experience has revealed that it is not safe to assume that sufficient notice or time will be granted in the absence of explicitly stated conditions.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool. We are of one mind on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Is it reasonable to request appreciation for help? This one I'm not sure about. It's certainly a bit unusual to ask for it. In general, it's probably reasonable to expect it, since normal human interactions do involve appreciation for freely given assistance. However, if prior experience with a particular individual has shown that appreciation is not likely to be forthcoming, then it seems to me that if your motive in making an offer is to receive appreciation, it is more reasonable not to make the offer in the first place. Although you can request specific behavior, I think requesting a specific attitude is asking a lot. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you on this point. It is not reasonable to request an attitude, and I see exactly what you mean. Do you remember how you once said to me that you would ask you exW what to do, and she would tell you what to do, and it would not work and you didn't know why? It was because she was thinking: "What things could he do that might make me feel X--which is what I want to feel?" I think that is similar to what I was doing here. I was trying to communicate that I expected to be treated a certain way for freely given assistance. Most people I know would be willing to either give or receive a favor from someone--just because they like the person and as a random act of kindness--and being on the receiving end, would treat the person doing them a favor by returning the kindness in some way...through saying thank you, acknowledging the effort, returning the favor...something!! As you mentioned, history has clearly indicated that this would NOT be the case with my stbxH. Thus, I was trying to ask for that kind of response up front. If I am not going to be treated in a way that is respectful, I'm not willing to do the work and be treated poorly. In my opinion, that is just giving him the opportunity to hurt me, and that isn't wise. However, I think I was trying to communicate actions, and I used a feeling word. I wanted actions that were respectful--I asked for a feeling/attitude. I think this may go back to the whole "trying to control him and stop him from being angry" issue too (by the back door, but it may be partially involved).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> And, speaking solely for myself, I can't remember the last time I did something in order to be appreciated. Do I want to be appreciated? Yes. But I choose my actions according to my own attitude, not someone else's. If it's the right thing for me to do, then it's the right thing for me to do, regardless of how someone else may feel about it. We all have to own our own attitudes and feelings, and we need to let everyone else take responsibility for their attitudes and feelings. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. I agree. In all honesty, I can say that I did not offer to do this for the purpose of being appreciated. If he had said NOTHING to me except "Thank you" as I handed it to him, I would have done it for the joy within myself of being helpful and doing a good job. As I said above, I think there are two parts to this...1) I wanted actions that were respectful and 2) I was trying to avoid the anger/abuse. Number 1 is reasonable I think (as you said, most normal human interactions would involve appreciation for freely given assistance); Number 2 is not so healthy and will be the general direction which I think I will work on (dangle dangle). It's not my responsibility to attempt to control him to avoid the anger. It IS my job to protect myself and have people in my life who respect me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Is it reasonable to use the "Anybody Else" standard? This one I'm even less sure about. In government and business, the idea that everyone should be equal is admirable. But in personal and social situations I don't treat everyone alike, and I don't expect anyone else to treat me like they treat every other person. I mean, why should I expect someone to treat me like a close personal friend if I am merely an acquaintance? And should I feel guilty if I grant a lot more attention to my spouse or my child than to my next-door neighbor? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not positive, but I think this was taken incorrectly. I do not expect him to treat his boss like a wife--that level of intimacy is WAY inappropriate! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Nor do I expect him to treat his wife like a boss. Rather, it has been my observation that I am not treated with the same degree of civility and non-abuse that he treats some of the "every-day" people in his life. Thus, if he would not expect a big favor from his boss and then turn around and verbally abuse, berate, or belittle the boss--then I should not allow myself to be treated that poorly.

GDP, I tend to lose focus of the forest for the trees. I get emotionally bound up, and as you know, THOUGHTS are not as clear when emotions are high. So I've learned some tricks to help me settle the chaotic feelings and re-engage my brain. As you know, an abusive person generally does so behind closed doors...in public, at work, or at church, they are a charming pillar of the community in front of their co-workers and neighbors, and behind closed doors they abuse. So it occurred to me that if my stbxH has the ability to control himself and treat the others in his life without abuse--if he can act charming in public--then I should be treated with at least that same minimum level of decency and control. I should not allow myself to be treated in a less respectful way than basically an acquaintance. And yet, that's what I did for years!! I allowed myself to be verbally, emotionally and mentally abused while the more casual people in his life were not treated abusively.

Does that make sense?? I'm not suggesting that all should be treated equally. Nope. Some people in your life are in fact treated with special priviledges because they ARE closer to you and in a more intimate relationship. It is right and proper to treat your BOSS differently from your SPOUSE--to give more attention to your children than your neighbor. The problem for me is actually the exact opposite instances...the BOSS who is treated more kindly than the spouse--the neighbor who is treated less abusively than the children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> When my wife got me out of bed in the wee hours of the morning to type up a paper for her that was due that day, I didn't care whether it was a reasonable thing to do or not. I did it because I wanted to help her out - and there's probably no one else I would have done it for. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!! This is exactly the kind of "I would do this for you because I care about you and it would benefit you" attitude that I have within me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I think part of the problem here, CJ, is that you didn't make a clear distinction in your own mind between a business relationship and a personal relationship, and I rather doubt that your STBXH is even capable of making such a distinction. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I don't believe you owed your STBXH an explanation for why you enforced your boundaries. I don't see anything wrong with your giving him that explanation, but I wouldn't expect it to do any good...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, it is funny that you should mention that. Explaining is another area of my life on which I am currently working. It really does not do any good, other than that it helps me to sort through the chaos of feelings and make it all more defined and logical. However, the very, very, VERY consistent pattern is that explanations are not well-received...in fact, they are usually either ignored or dismissed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh well. Since it helps me to sort it all out, I suppose I will continue to write down my explanations--just stop sending them!

Thanks for you help, GDP. As always, you've made it all clear as mud! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> heehee

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

Hello Faithful,
Just curious: What would a secretarial service or temp agency have charged for such a project, and what would the turnaround time have been?