Thank you Kimmy2. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I assume you are saying that the WS's affair is no different than the BS going out on a date once separated.
I think there is a big difference. But I think it is still wrong to date whle married.
If the "date" is not that important, then why not wait until the divorce is final?

But Lyxa posted that he went on a date. Everything he describes is (to me) considered date stuff.

I never hinted (or thought) that sex was involved.

If marriage is important enough to someone to do it, then it should stay that way until they are not married anymore. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Also, Hmmm... my original intent in this was to share with the forum a "life after dv"

Let me know when MB has a "Single Again at Last" forum.
He is not "Single Again" nor is he in "life after dv".

CA, I understand you to mean that you shouldn't go out with a member of the opposite sex until the divorce is final. While I think that sounds very noble, I think every situation is different.

There are many cases in which the WS, since they have already moved on and don't care about morals/values of waiting until things are final to date, have sex, or whatever, will delay agreeing to having the paperwork completed. I mean, what is their hurry? They moved on, they don't care about the paperwork, so they can hem-haw around and make the process of divorce as long and drawn out as possible. Also, divorces, at least in my state (Alabama) cost a good amount of money. Now, had I known in advance my H was going to do this and that I could not persuade him to reconcile, then I suppose I could have saved up $$ on my own and put this aside, but I did not have $750 (minimum) to file for DV, so I waited on H, who was happily running around with OW. Filing for a DV was not his top priority because he was already eating his cake. Also, he was paying child support in the meantime, so I couldn't go that avenue. WS care only about themselves during this phase, (at least that is my experience), yet it takes 2 to get a divorce.

So, again, we could have self control and not have "SEX" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> until things are final (which I agree with), but it is in our nature to be social with others, and I don't think that excluding yourself from spending time (dates or whatever you want to call it) with the opposite sex makes you more noble than someone who just wants to have that companionship again.

I think each situation is different, and until you can divorce someone on your own without their signature within a reasonable amount of time, I don't think we should persecute someone for trying to find happiness---platonically.

and I don't think that excluding yourself from spending time (dates or whatever you want to call it) with the opposite sex makes you more noble
I'm don't care one iota about being "noble" but standng up for something I believe in, even if it is difficult to do.

it is in our nature to be social with others, and I don't think that excluding yourself from spending time (dates or whatever you want to call it)
Agreed. But I pointed out as did Lyxa, it was everything a "date" is and not just "socializing."
She made many excuses for me to hold her hands and I just couldn't do it. Same with a kiss as a dare. I figure there'll be time for that later on.

Plus "tracy, the date" is separated also. Is Lyxa possibly standing in the way of any thoughts of reconciliation with her husband?

I'm completely in Chris's camp on this one.

You're preaching "Relativistic Morals" here. Morals are not relative---they are absolute. Once you start minimizing this, you're going down a very slippery slope to where you can easily argue that an affair is OK (as Chris has already illustrated).

Practicing a good, ethical, moral life isn't always easy. Sometimes it's damn hard. These situations are hardly unique---in fact, they're often extremely common. And some of us have been here long enough to have seen the problems that arise when you don't stick to your moral code.

WOW... look all the bolded quotes fly around. A better question would be "what constitutes dating"? According to my office manager, it's being romantically involved with someone. Can you go on a date without "dating" that person? Can I do things with a woman "as just friends" and have it NOT be a date?

According to me, a "date" is when I go hang out with an available female and I have romantic interest... something I haven't done since I started dating my x six years ago. The Saturday thing and basis of this thread was arranged as a "double date".

Tomorrow, I'm going golfing with her. That's even more of a date. And, to clarify any confusion of intention... it is a date to me. I asked her out last night. I'm picking her up tomorrow. If I'm lucky, we'll have a great time and get to know each other better. If I'm luckier, we'll become friends whereas right now there's not even a "we"... just a mutual acquaintance thing through her brother-in-law who is a great friend of mine. I'm totally open to romantic interest but am quite content to let all that occur in due time.

Thanks for the support. And to those who are less supportive, thanks for the dialogue. At some point, everyone is going to come to grips with the fact that they're "Single Again at Last", however you choose to define it. Take what you can from the original post... and put it into your own context. If that, to you, is:
- Bad. I'm fine with that.
- Good. I'm fine with that too.
- Thought-provoking. Then thank you for accepting my original post in the spirit I intended.

- Religiously, the marriage question is an interesting one. My religion won't free me from my original marriage covenants until I am ready to marry someone else. At that time, I'll have to produce the divorce documents and go through a kind of eclesiastical court to annul my first marriage. In the meantime, I am expected to conduct myself honorably and in a chaste manner.
- Judicially, the dv process takes very long in Maryland... so there is a legal workaround that is called a "dv settlement" that goes into effect when signed and governs until a judge's decree.
- Legally, I've been divorced since my settlement date in Feb.

I see your point with Tracy the date. I will agree that could be playing with fire, not knowing her situation. But I still see nothing wrong with them spending time together as platonic friends.

Maybe the "later" he is talking about will be after the dv. Who is to say?

What qualifies as a date? From what I understand, they went with another couple. They hiked, talked, and everything went on platonically. I do not agree with things becoming physical at this stage, but if he paid for the outing, does that make it a date?

I'm the mom of 2 boys, and I think that whenever a woman is in the company of a man, friend-family-whatever, the man should pick up the tab. Call me old fashioned (sexist or whatever), but I don't think that if he paid, that even necessarily makes it a date. If there are romantic intentions, then those should be quelled until things are final. However, going out with someone for companionship after (remember I keep saying after) a complete separation, I don't think is wrong. Would I involve kids? No. Would I agree with this if they were living as man and wife? No. Different situations.

A little background: My XWH had a "friendship" with a woman. They worked together (both are teachers, as am I). I was supposed to accept their friendship (which lasted 2 years before the PA began) or else lose my marriage. I accepted it, finally, knowing that they were going places together, (restaurants, shopping, lake, gym, etc). I accepted this, reluctantly, and eventually they gave into their "friendship" and without me knowing this led to a fullblown PA. For 2 years, mind you, he was going out with his "friend" while still kissing me goodbye and telling me he loved me. Now, he and OW (who was/is also married) are trying to work it out where they will be together. Yes, I have, after 6 months of living on my own with my children, gone out with a guy for companionship. I know I put my all into my marriage, but because he is dragging his feet on signing paperwork, I don't think I should be made to feel bad just because I go out to dinner with a man. Nothing physical, just dinner and maybe a movie. I'm trying to find myself again, and trying to overcome major self confidence issues, and a "date" if you want to call it that, helps me become stronger after losing what I thought was my life.

I'm pretty conservative in my thinking, but I think each issue should be looked at and evaluated as such. No, nothing physical should take place until signed, but I still see no prob with going out as friends.

I see your point with Tracy the date. I will agree that could be playing with fire, not knowing her situation. But I still see nothing wrong with them spending time together as platonic friends.

What qualifies as a date? From what I understand, they went with another couple. They hiked, talked, and everything went on platonically. I do not agree with things becoming physical at this stage, but if he paid for the outing, does that make it a date?
Lyxa said, "According to me, a "date" is when I go hang out with an available female and I have romantic interest... something I haven't done since I started dating my x six years ago. The Saturday thing and basis of this thread was arranged as a "double date".

Tomorrow, I'm going golfing with her. That's even more of a date. And, to clarify any confusion of intention... it is a date to me."

I think that is pretty clear to everyone.

However, going out with someone for companionship after (remember I keep saying after) a complete separation, I don't think is wrong.
As I said before I agree. But you have to be careful with your intentions, their intentions and the situation to make sure there is nothing implied.

A little background: My XWH had a "friendship" with a woman. ...
My point exactly. Most afairs do not start out with either party thinking "affair." But friendships can and do blossom into more than that, which is why opposite sex friendships need to be approached very, very carefully.

Everyone thinks it's innocent but once caught up, it is more than difficult to get out of and easier to "justify" the friendship.

Don't do it & you cannot get caught up in it.

but I still see no prob with going out as friends.

Not even being dicussed here.

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris cant move on and doesnt want others to either. Im sorry Chris, but all of your posts are wait on the WS. You can sit around till the end of time and wait for your WW to come back...but nowhere in the Bible does it say be foolish. I realize you have your opinion....but, I just have to disagree on this one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Chris cant move on and doesnt want others to either.
I have moved on. When the time is right for them, others will do it too.

Im sorry Chris, but all of your posts are wait on the WS.
? I'm not even remotely hinting that Lyxa wait on anything from his spouse. Wait until the dv is complete before dating. If it is, then great. Do what he wants.

You can sit around till the end of time and wait for your WW to come back
I don't quite understand your thoughts. People come here and want their marriage to work. Use MB principles. When you are done, you will be togther or divorced. I don't have a problem with either as long as you did the work & understand what occured (the affair, marriage failures, divorce, your own actions/reactions, etc.)

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Dude,

She wanted to be with you big time, maybe she was lonely or whatever but you could have had her that night if that was what you wanted. Any woman who touches you constantly and laughs at all your stuff is a clear sign, next time take a chance and go long worse case is rejection.

good luck
Toyman

LOL... thanks Toyman. "Going long"... are you a daytrader? I'm a bit more reserved and slow. I like to go for style points... and in this case, it means getting to know her better, which is what I want anyways.

hi. don't post much, but a response by K caused me some concern. K states the morals , ethics, are not relative. that indicates a person who desperately wants to believe in absolutes, and its an attractive thing to hold on to. However, these things are relative. One need on consider the unfortunate souls in some institutions and realize that they don't have the same view of the world as do most mainstream americans. then one only need go to other cultures and also, come to know that these people do not live by the same ideas. How many people will honestly say that if they were born in an Arabic country they would see things as we see them in this country. The reason I felt a need to bring this up is, these sugar coated ideas mislead many people who , for whatever reason tend to rely on knowledge and wisdom given rather than seeking for themselves. it can cause a great deal of emotional distress. Consider the Spanish inquistion. These religious leaders of that day and place thought themselves ordained by God to punish those whose saw life differently. Thats what I mean by dangerous proclamations. Morality is definitly relative to one's place and time. thanks for reading

I need to start my own site.....GET REAL MARRIAGE ADVISE.

Are you implying the advice on Marriage Builders is not "real?"

Lyxa, What about your date? What if she and her H wanted to reconcile but you were already involved with her as the OM? Why are you willing to become an OM just like the one that helped destroy your M?

Naw Chris....Im just teasin man....relax..its cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let me stab at it. You'd step aside, no questions asked.

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Lyxa,
I think it's great you are making new friends.
I hope she can't turn around and say you were WH.
It seems at this point it's gone beyond that.
I've been reading your posts for a while. If anyone needs to move on it's you. Maybe meeting some new people will restore your trust in women.
I'm surprised at the response to your post.
You were spending too much time dealing with your WW and her drama. Maybe when she catches wind you are moving on she will leave you alone.
I hope this gal is good to you. Remember, she might be a little messed up right now too.
I think you posted in the right place. Divorcing/Divorced is a process. I think the sour grapes are victims of WS's. They are still too close to the pain to get where you are.
I hope your date went well.

Aly

Thanks Aly. Chris, 2MuchCoffee... I am going to be exceptionally careful to make sure that I don't become the OM. It's very much on my mind. It's actually more complicated than that. She's the sister-in-law of my best friend... as such if she and her husband do get back together, it could BE VERY AWKWARD. I've read a lot about rebound relationships... and that weighs heavily on my mind as well.

However, that being said, her situation is interesting. Her husband turned out to be gay and decided to end the marriage before he goes into that "world". In her words, "He's the only man I've ever heard of who got married and INCREASED his exercising and became MORE buff." I suppose anything is possible. She's already had a boyfriend and broken up. What a difference it makes to split up a marriage because of an affair versus one of the spouses being honest and saying, "Hey, this just isn't going to work out. We need to divorce before I hurt you."

Should they get back together, I will simply walk away and turn my interests and energy into making friends with other women. Or I'll go back to my 18 hour work days.

My golf date is Thursday afternoon. My 2nd encounters are where I always fall apart. I'm curious to see how this all goes with Traci. It'll be nice to not have her sister around continually pointing out similarities in our divorces. I just want to keep things light and bright.