My W called me Monday very angry. She said her lawyer received a letter from mine referring to discovery and financial documents and she didn't know what my lawyer was talking about. I calmly explained to her that my lawyer had served her with discovery back in January but never got a response and had followed up with letters on 3/28 and again last week asking that they provide the financials. My W claims her lawyer never received any of it and accused my lawyer off trying to drag this out to "keep the meter running". I told her I had copies of the letters my lawyer sent to hers. She said my lawyer is lying, that she never sent anything to her lawyer and only sent me copies to make me think she is doing something so she can keep billing me for stuff.. She said she didn't know what my lawyer was looking for since I already have copies of our 2002 tax return and the financial stuff is already settled (which it isn't). I told her my lawyer wants copies of her profit sharing and stock statements for the last 7 years. She asked why and I said because I'm entitled to a portion of it. She said I wasn't because that was before we were married. I told her I'm entitled to half of whatever assets she's acquired since we've been married. That was the end of the conversation. I want to remind you all, in her settlement proposal she/her lawyer asked for 50% of my stock options (which I don't have by the way) and other retirement assets, so why this comes as a surprise to her is beyond me.

A little while later she sent me an email saying that she doesn't want to argue about retirement benefits and suggested she keep hers and I keep mine and just sign the settlement agreement. Seems the worm has turned. Now that she realizes I'm going after exactly what she was (which I rightfully deserve), she's singing a different tune. I think I answered appropriately.

I told her I won't agree to anything until all the cards are on the table, so the sooner she provides my lawyer the financial statements she requested the sooner we can get this issue ironed out. I also suggested we let our lawyers handle this issue as well as the rest of the settlement.

I really don't understand why she was so angry. She should have expected this, especially since I'm only asking for exactly what she was. Reality rearing it's ugly head, I guess. Was there a mix up with the correspondence from my lawyer? Who knows, but I asked my lawyer to send all future correspondence via certified mail so we can avoid any future debates over who sent and received what. At least the issue is now clearly on the table. If she's this angry about something she should have expected, what does the future hold?. I'm in for some rough times and it makes me sick to my stomach.

sad dad

LOL

This is EXACTLY what happened with me. In the beginning... we tried mediation. And I gave her all the financial docs I had. Then, at some point, she learned about formal discovery and demanded it. I gave her all my original financial docs. So, she started laying the groundwork to subpoena and sue my business... key docs of which had originally been provided. That gave me time to dig around...

I then requested discovery on her part... primarily to "publicly" uncover 4x plane tickets, $1,500 in calling cards for calls to OM, $2,000 in gifts to OM, and about $5,000 in cash she had funneled to her family. Suddeny her tune DRASTICALLY changed.

But she threw a fit just like yours did. I think, and this is MHO, that part of their fantasy is a rationalization that if THEY'RE LYING and CHEATING that YOU must be too... just in other ways. My x told everyone, "I may have a made a few minor mistakes, for which I'll NEVER be forgiven, but HE'S BEEN HIDING MONEY with his parents and his business!!!"

One of the happiest days in my life was when, as part of my formal discovery, I presented her with copies of all the "costs" of her affair as well as the other docs she requested... and her lawyer realized that I hadn't been hiding anything and turned to her and said, "You have no case."

It makes no difference in reality... at least your reality. They tend to think that the world should only work as they see fit. When the rest of the world doesn't go along with their thoughts, then they have a fit. Just as my ex did. She asked for the moon, stars, and half of everything I would make in the future. (She was serial betrayer). I told her that I would split EVERYTHING we had right down the middle and give her exactly what the law stated I needed to. That meant that in reality she would have had to take half my medical school loans and every other bill we had. As soon as she heard about this, and that it was how the law was set up, and that it was to PROTECT the innocent parties, she really blew.

She started saying that she was going to file for full custody, (so she could get full Child support) etc. She used my boys against me so often. But the thing is that I had always told her that I would take the bills and help her out as best that I could. But she just couldn't go for that. She felt that she deserved MORE. She felt that her repeated actions meant nothing, but the fact that we were married meant everything. I was to provider her with the life she would have had had she been faithful and we stayed married. Heh heh heh.... was she surprised.

I ended up taking all the bills and paying full CS as well as her mortgage. But it is only because I have to provide stability in not only my house, but her's as well. But it is for my boys. They will benefit from it. She gets to go along for the ride. But she will always just be riding the coat-tails of my boys. Nothing that I pay her is for her in my heart. If it weren't for the boys, she WOULD be paying for my medical loans. Just to spite her stupidity.

My philosophy throughout the divorce has been "Expect the worst from them. Then when it happens, you won't be surprised. And if it doesn't happen, then the only surprise will be a good one."

Reality is a matter of perspective and her's has been scewed from the beginning. She had unrealistic expectations and now that they're not coming to fruition, she's angry. She expected to get full custody (or at least primary). She may have expected to get the house. She expected a huge CS payment and she expected her retirement package to remain untouched while getting half of mine.

As is turns out, we have 50/50 shared custody with no primary or custodial parent. I got the house, she bought a TH. She wants me to pay for half of all our daughter's expenses (as I have since we separated) AND give her $800/mth in CS. Based on our custody agreement, our incomes being close and the fact that we've split all childcare relate expenses equally the last 10 months, my lawyer believes we've set a precident that has worked and no CS is warranted. I'm sure this contributed to her anger. Since she works for a large corporation and I work for a very small company, her retirement package is much better and much greater than mine. so I'm entitled to more. Things are not going at all the way she expected, but pretty much the way I thought they would. I feel kind of bad for her, but I never wanted this. She made her choices and they come with consequences.

sad dad

The one thing that I think you should think about, and this really drove how I dealt with the settlement... What is a decent relationship with your ex, worth to you and your child. What I mean is, by taking a hardline, you will be setting up barriers that will be seen by and retribution doled out by, a crazy person, ie your ex.

Even though you are completely within your rights for all this stuff, perhaps there are things that you 'shouldn't go after' simply because you will gain alot more by letting her have them. I know in my case, I could have made my ex take half the bills, and just paid her the CS that the court ordered. But when I looked at the whole picture, I realized that I would have been dealing with an ex, who has 50% custody of my boys, who is mentally unstable, feels slighted by the system and would have taken it out on me in every way possible for the rest of my life.

So what I did, is let her 'win' by giving her far more than she deserves. I get the feeling in your posts that while you have the right, absolutely, that you don't really 'WANT' to go after her retirement, but you do want in some fashion, to 'hurt' her, because she deserves it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel kind of bad for her, but I never wanted this. She made her choices and they come with consequences.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't matter what the law says, you don't have to go by it. You will look like the 'bigger man' the more 'selfless' of the two, by not taking what you deserved.

What I thought about during this phase was... "What is going to give me and my children the best opportunity at a good life from this moment on?" I could have stuck with the 'law' but I know my ex, and it wouldn't have mattered to her. She would have been furious and hurt. Even if she got precisely what the law said, she would have felt cheated. She would have deserved even less, but that doesn't compute in her reality.

I guess what I am saying is make sure that what you are doing NOW is what will make your life easiest in the future. Do you really want her to ever be able to say that she 'financed' your retirement with her own? Do you ever want her to be able to tell your child that she was 'screwed' by the divorce? Do you want her making visitation, holidays, EVERYTHING difficult from now on? Because she will. She will have the opportunity to make your and your child's life miserable by her power over it. She can refuse to change a weekend that you need. She can hold Christmas time to the letter, because it makes no difference to her, but she knows that you wanted to go on a trip. ETC. Now she can still do these things with you "giving in", however the chances are MUCH GREATER with a wife that feels cheated by the law. She will, in all liklihood, use that same law to hurt you in return.

I took the bills, all of them. I gave her full child support instead of the half, even though I have 50% custody. I pay her mortgage. I don't have to do any of it, and some "including my lawyer" thought or think that I was being taken advantage of. I am, in some ways, however I feel like I am investing in my family's future. In two years, how much would you pay to have a compliant ex?? Would the retirement you gained be worth the headaches that ensue? For me, I know that the money that I pay, and it is considerable, is well worth the opportunity to be free of her. She can't gripe about anything in reality, because she will look incredibly petty, and garner little sympathy. Everyone knows what she could have gotten, and everyone knows what she did get. But, ME AND MY CHILDREN are the true winners. Because she walked out of mediation feeling as though she won... and so did I. I feel as though I bought vidication by giving now, and having my future in my hands rather than her's.

Oh she will be furious when I am making my future salary, and she is still at this level of finances. The money is nothing to me compared to the ability to be able to look at my children when they are teenagers and answer any questions completely truthfully. My boys can ask me anything about this entire period in our lives, and I can honestly look at them and say (as well as prove with examples) that I did everything to prevent this, and then to make this as good for them as possible. They will be able to see what I could have done to their mother, and that I had incredible reason to do it, however, that I chose to think of them instead. I will have taught them that sacrifice overshadows self. And I will have taught them that by hard work, you get what you deserve. They will see that although I 'over gave' that I am better off because of it.

At least those are all the things that I keep telling myself... But at least I can forsee a future that would allow for that to occur. I know that had I chosen the 'law', that this future would never have been possible. I would have been fighting over custody issues for the next 13 years. I have essentially made her a 'non-entitiy' in my life. I bought her off, she feels like she won, which she did in a way. But in reality she lost. She lost a husband that would have done anything in the world to make her happy and save our marriage. She lost a whole family in which her children could have felt secure and learned consistently from both parents. She lost the big vacations, the beach home, the cabin in the mountains. She won her freedom from all those things... perhaps she is really better off. Only she can determine just what she needed in her life. She made the decision and I have made mine.

What I want to reiterate is... And really think about this... What would a semi-compliant ex be worth to your and your child's future? Would it be worthwhile leaving her retirement alone? Would it be worth a 'token' child support payment? Make sure that in a few years you aren't saying... I would rather have had peace than a 401K. Besides for me, I couldn't stand the thought that she had financed me in any fashion. If I did take it, I would have put it into my children's college fund anyway.

<small>[ May 11, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

I think you have to be careful in letting your stbx have her own way now, hoping that she will be pleasant and reasonable later. Isn't it possible that things get better for you in the years to come, but worse for your wife? Do you think being "nice" now, would prevent her from blaming you for the problems that come up down the road? If she has learned that you won't fight back?

Just do whatever the law requires financially. If there is any "extra", save it for the kids education rather than just giving it to your stbx. That still leaves you in a clean position with your kids down the road. As young adults, your kids might respect you more if you followed the standard procedures, and are in a position to help them a little with college. Remember, you have no control over what she does with her property settlement or her support. Will your kids be impressed that you were overly generous now, if they did not really see the benefit of your generosity?

I have my own regrets on these principles. When I moved out for plan B, I could probably have got primary custody, but I did not fight for it. I was telecommuting full time; now I have a different job but with very flexible hours. But I accepted less overnights than I wanted, just because my wife did not want to give me the credit on child support if I had more than 40%. But now our oldest son is having problems that the school has gotten involved in, and they stem from the OM's influence, and from him being left home alone after school. My wife's values in these areas have changed completely. Now, I wish I had held out for primary custody. Some of my son's issues would not be happening, if I had done so. I worry about what will happen in a few years, and how I will feel then, about not fighting for primary custody 18 months ago.

Many other times I've tried to be "nice" or "fair" on different issues, but there is no positive return. It just doesn't work.

If she is this angry now, can't see her becoming more compliant later on. My ex left me and my girls and then set about to destroy me. He didn't care about what it might do to his children. In order to try and settle the case, I gave in on items, his attorney added language into agreements and I lost some of the ground I had to protect the girls. Every time we made a settlement agreement, ex would come into to court again and ask for more stuff. This divorce went on for nearly 3 years and the jerk is still trying to do whatever damage he can. Because of the length of divorce, the judge saw fit to sanction both of us. There is still no signed settlement agreement because his attorney will not make a few changes. They are OBVIOUSLY errors and he won't change it.

I have one child in a residential treatment school for therapy about the abuse she recieved at the hands of her father, the other is finally showing signs of stress and cracking a bit. Somehow, I have managed to maintain my sanity.

I'm dealing with the Child Support Services department to modify my child support to what it should be. Ex has been paying a lot less than he should have for over a year, because in order to settle, I stipulated a lot higher income than I make. Then they drug out the divorce for another year anyway.

Guess I am giving fair warning, DO NOT LET THE DIVORCE GO ON AND ON! Formerly Confused makes the statements that the kids are what's important. That is the truth. Once the marriage is over, get it over with so all can move on. Yes, nice if you can all get what you deserve, but have found there is no justice to be had. Make the settlement that benefits the kids the best.

My ex has lost one daughter completely, the other wants nothing to do with him, but if he decides to try, she will be forced by the courts to associate with him, a proven child abuser. I will never speak to the monster again, and he and his friend across the street try to do as much harassment as they can. Juvenile delinquents in their 40's.

Be careful with angry stbx's, and make sure you get an attorney who is on the ball. Mine dropped it.

Lori

Thanks for all your replies, you've given me much to think about.

A couple of points I'd like to make. I have no desire to hurt my W, if I wanted to I could have in many ways, but I choose to take the high road. As far as my W's retirement plan, we made a conscious decision years ago that she would invest as much into it as her company would allow because my company didn't offer anything at the time and it was better than any other retirement vehicle we could have invested in. We made this decision for OUR future and OUR retirement. The fact that we won't have a future together doesn't change that. If neither of our employers had a retirement plan and we invested money ourselves in Roth IRA's, mutual funds, real estate, etc, we'd split that equitably. This is no different.

In the end, I may not want anything from her retirement plan, but that's a decision I can't make until she provides her financial statements and I have a chance to go over them with my lawyer and make an informed decision. I'm not going to agree to anything blindly.

As far as CS, I'll do what I think is right when the time comes. I realize having a civil co-parenting relationship with my W is important, and I'll do all I can to ensure that happens, but "giving in" for the sake of "giving in" won't guarantee that. I have to protect myself financialy now and in the future, for my sake, my daughter's and God willing, a new wife and children in the future. If I'm fortunate enough to remarry and have more children, I want to be able to provide for them in the same manner I have always and will always provide for my daughter. My daughter will always be taken care of and will never want for anything, I'll see to that. My concern is that any $$$ I voluntarily give my W for CS may never make it to my daughter, so I must be careful to safeguard against that. That's a sad but unfortunate reality.

A friend of mine here at MB that knows my story well and who I admire greatly gave me some good advice. He told me it's time to practice some "tough love" with regards to my W. There is a price to be paid for the choices she has made, but so far I've protected her from paying that price. I can't do that anymore. An analogy I would make is if you have a child that gets involved in drugs or alcohol or the wrong crowd, as parents our natural tendency is to protect them, but you reach a point where you can no longer do that and you have to let them deal with the consequences of their actions. It's a very difficult thing to do, but often necessary if they are going to learn anything and pull themselves out of the gutter. After this 2-1/2 yr nightmare, if my W hasn't learned a thing from this experience, than it was all for nothing.

sad dad

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>