My wife had a PA and EA from 6/02 to 12/02. We we headed for D but decided on a 6 mo. order of reconciliation. Well 6 months have gone by and things have not really changed. She says she loves me but is not in love with me. She told the counselor that the main reason that she had the A was that I was not affectionate enough. Well now i have been making a great effort to show her how I truly feel. Small things like rubbing her back, hair and going back in the house to tell her that I love her again. Well, Saturday night I asked her if there was anything else that I could do for her to help with our relationship. BOOM. The bomb went off. She flew off cussing and so on. "We can not have a GD night of rest without you asking stupid questions" was one of her comments. I have not brought any topic like this up in months. She now says that she has not physical attraction to me whatsoever and may never feel that way again. She says the things that I am doing for her now are fake and I am doing them only because I have too. My response was that I now realize how I messed up and do not want to be in the situation that we were before with her looking outside our home for affection. She also says now that she does not care if i am affectionate towards her. Our sex life is terrible..basically none. I am extremely concerned that I have hope and wants for something that will never be there. How do I show her that I care? Hell, I think that it is evident due to the fact that I still am with her. I got mad yesterday after she pushed the issue and told her that I do not know if I can go on with no hope. I feel as if I am fighting a loosing battle. She says that I am simply mad because she is not "fu*&in&" my brains out everynight. How do I take this?

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: KarlM ]</small>

Have you read the Concepts on the MB site? Have you read the book?
If you haven't, do that immediately.
And share the materials with her to let her know that you are honestly trying.
She doesn't trust that your current behavior will continue (because you didn't act that way in the past).
So now you need to show her that you understand what it takes to improve your marriage and you have the tools to work on it.

Many people set a contract for reconciliation which lists their expectations. It may help in your M.
Good Luck.

Thanks Newly. I have read the concepts many times. I have asked my wife to follow these guidelines and she has no interest. She calls MB a stupid place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I have not however read the book.

Karl - if you have really done well for 6 months, except that one blow-up, it might be close to the time for plan B. Double-check the guidelines for plan A, to see if you have been consistent, and how much you have love-busted.

If that's the case, go back to the back rubs and whatever else you were doing, and with no more "stupid questions". If you do plan B, it should be without warning, and while the atmosphere is the best you can make it. Not right after a blowup. So you might want to put in another good month of plan A.

Don't let it get to the point where you don't care any more, or you resent her too much.

Make sure you are prepared for plan B possibly leading to a divorce.

This Web site has pretty much everything that's in the book SAA. If you have read the whole site, you are in good shape so far as the MB information goes.

If you have the time and money, try at least one or two phone counseling session here, before you make a decision. They can help you verify whether your 6 months has been a good plan A, or perhaps it hasn't been. That's a key point for MB principles.

You didn't say if your wife is still in contact with OM. That's another key point. If she is, then your best efforts are not going to work (at winning her back), no matter how good you are, or how long you keep it up.

Good luck...

Thanks for the input tmmx. I will go back and review plan A again. As far as the contact with the OM, she insisted when we reconciled that she be able to speak with him. He WAS a friend of mine and he is married with a 6 mo. old. Well I STRONGLY insisted that NC be maintained with the OM. I kept getting my phone bill from DEC. 02 to March 03 and his cell number was on there about 25 times. Each month she adimately denied talking with him. Turns out a couple days later his wife calls me and tells me that he admitted to her to talking and meeting with my wife. I go home and confront her and all my wife does is blow up on me for talking to his wife. She then admits to meeting and talking. I give her a final chance and told her that any conversation, meeting, e-mail going forward would be the final straw. I moved out for about a month and a half and moved back with high hopes. She told me this past Saturday that she has had NC and I hope that is the case. I have told her that no matter what I do or say will ever allow us to progress if she is speaking with him.

Man...I feel for you that is terrible. My EX WW acted the way yours is right now. I dont get it.....ya try its not good enough.....you dont try and its not good enough. I dont know the answer myself.....heck, I ended up divorced. I just say hang in their and see what God guides you to do.

PS. My EX used to have cell phone bills with one number dialed 50-100 times. I called the number....no voice, just a beep. Hmmmmmmm???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Karl,

Harley uses three different states to describe marriage: intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. When you asked the question, you got conflict. So maybe not all is lost---it's much better than withdrawal.

There could be many issues here. It's possible that your wife is still having an affair. If that's not the case, it may be that she's still suffering through withdrawal herself (from the affair), a month and a half isn't a great amount of time. I would suggest that you be particularly careful about the "lovebusting" behaviors, and see what needs your wife will allow you to meet. Also, you might consider a new counselor if this one hasn't made much progress with the two of you. The Harley's are very good marriage counselors/coaches; call the office at 888-639-1639 for an appointment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told the counselor that the main reason that she had the A was that I was not affectionate enough... She also says now that she does not care if i am affectionate towards her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome to dealing with an affair. See if she will suggest alternative solutions to getting her back to enjoying the marriage (which is your goal, of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). If she can't, I would focus on conversation and family stuff---these are usually "woman" needs that you can fill nonthreateningly. And try to stick it out, it'll certainly be worth it as far as your kids are concerned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as the contact with the OM, she insisted when we reconciled that she be able to speak with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is totally unacceptable because no contact with the OP is THE most essential condition for marital recovery.

She may no longer be having a PA but it certainly looks like she is still continuing with the EA.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked my wife to follow these guidelines and she has no interest. She calls MB a stupid place. I have not however read the book.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've got some very important soul searching to do in terms of wanting to remain married to a woman that is not only unremorseful about her A, but has no intention of wanting to rebuild the M.

Just Learning, one the most wisest among us, recently told another Karl (whose WW is having a 2nd A) the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It seems to me Karl, that you are in love with an illusion. You love the person you THINK, BELIEVE, HOPE your W is. Yet, you know that what you THINK. BELIEVE, HOPE is isn't reality."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems that the above is equally applicable to you.

"It seems to me Karl, that you are in love with an illusion. You love the person you THINK, BELIEVE, HOPE your W is. Yet, you know that what you THINK. BELIEVE, HOPE is isn't reality."

I agree with this quote. In our first session of MC, she told the MC that "she was sorry for hurting me however not sorry for the A. Man that hurt and still hurts to the bone. I have prepared for D but look at the kids and it kills me. I do not want this OM to be any type of role model for either my little boy or girl. I asked her Saturday why she was with me. Answer "Because I love you, you are my best friend and I do not want to loose our family". She also gave the line that I have read here so many times.."I love you but am not in love with you". Thanks alot to you all for sharing you thoughts with me.

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: KarlM ]</small>

Life is not a bowl of cherries for a great many single moms, and if you divorce her she'll discover this truth in spades. Reality bites.

As far as OM, chances are that once you divorce her, he's going to start making himself scarce for the simple reason that she is going to be more of a burden than she's worth. Very few men are thrilled at the idea of shouldering a big chunk of the financial responsibility of children that they have not fathered.

Karl,
I've been in excactly the same situation, and I can tell you you'd better believe your wife- if you doin't stop what you're doing now, you're headed for divorce. STOP trying to do little things & suck up..(she perceives it as being that).
The best thing you can do is ignore her, and go on with your life, if you are to have any hope at all of attracting her again. You need to be suave, charming, positive, confident, and to have a social life that does not involve her. Get the pressure off, stop trying so hard. Act as if nothing troubles you, and as if you are exceptionally happy. DOn't hang around her, try to be nice to her, nothing like that. She despises you for forgiving her that easily - you MUST be a wimp.

Look for the book- "Stop Your Divorce" by Homer MacDonald on the 'net.

muzohead

Karl, I am sorry to hear your story. It is so similar to mine that it is scary. EXACTLY as a matter of fact. Then I found out about several other affairs...

Karl, I did exactly what you are doing. I fixed every little detail that she could come up with. But these complaints are not real. Oh, they might make up a small portion of the problem, however, the reality of the situation is that they are just little superficial things that she can point to. They justify her decisions. They give her solace in her choices. Because she can look at you and say that it is all your fault.

She chose things because of what YOU were doing. Not because of what she was doing. You are the problem, however she is not interested in 'fixing' you any longer. I heard time and time again... "When is the last chance the last chance?" meaning that she had "given me so many chances to change" and I had blown it. Well, in reality, it is all hogwash. First of all we Never TALKED about anything. But besides... But it is how she can perceive the situation and tell herself that she did "everything she could, and I just wouldn't change."

Let me tell you something Karl. I applaud you for your diligence and work at preserving your family. I know the pain of thinking about your children having divorced parents. I lived that for a year and a half as the only one of us willing to put forth effort to change the situation.

However, I think that their guilt, and inability to just take the guilt and their choices as THEIR choices, take responsibility, make amends ie, accept that they are part of the problem as well as you, will forever preclude a meaningful relationship. I fear that you will find the same thing as I did. No matter how much effort you put into your marriage at this point. One person does not make the marriage, but one can destroy it. She is obviously bent on destroying it, however has just enough guilt to refrain from it at this point. But I tell you, it sounds as though she just wants to put in the time "trying without trying" so that she can look good to others, as well as herself when she looks in the mirror.

Karl, you situation is exactly like mine. Your wife sounds EXACTLY like my ex. I feel for you. But I agree with several other posters. You should do a plan B... I begged, pleaded, everything... and it just drove her away. However, I think that it in the end was the best thing. We attempted reconciliation for 4 months after I found out about her other affairs. Her interest in changing waned dramatically, to the point that within 4 months, everything was my fault again.

But the difference was, MY EYES WERE OPEN this time. I realized just what she was blaming me for, and continually repointed out the situation, very calmly. I think one of the hardest parts of those 4 months for her, was me pointing out that her assumptions and thoughts were flawed. I would point out very calmly and non accusitorily that what had happened was not what she perceived. She would then see it, and say "I guess you are right." But things just kept happening, same thing, same way. I point things out, she says "Oh". I think that she began realizing that the things that she had always believed were all my fault and that I was the point of her 'unhappiness' were in fact her own misconception and misperception of the event.

I truly think that she just couldn't accept that she is screwed up. With me being nice, honest, non-accusitory, warm, calm...and the things were still causing her pain, I think she finally began realizing that she was more of the problem than she was willing to accept. Therefore, for her, and all of her family in fact, the logical thing to do was to run away from the situation and start with a 'clean slate' so to speak.

Karl, I feel for you. I know what it is like. I hope for the best, but I don't believe that what you are doing will keep your family together. I think that you have to detach yourself from her. Love her, but don't fawn over her. Respect her, but don't bow to her. Don't ignore her, but still, seriously decrease your engagment of her. I don't know if I would go completely plan B, but I would seriously move in that direction. You might feel like you are going to force her hand, but don't think that you are causing it. She is still playing with the same cards, and is feeling like she just wants to lay them down on her own schedule.

Think about it Karl... She is ruling everything about you right now. This is not a marriage...

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Formerly Confused ]</small>

Totally agree with above comments.....totally. My EX did the exact same thing. Blamed me for everything, including her unhappiness.....not till after the divorce did she admit she did alot to ruin our marriage and family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I agree with the fact that she cannot accept the guilt. I am going to make a great effort to place some distance between us and still maintain a loving relationship while in the same home. When we were separated, it was easy. I would not answer her phone calls and done my own thing. She came begging back. Now same old routine. As my dad has told me several time lately.."the person that cares the least will control the relationship". That is hitting home greater than ever right now. She has also accused me of being controlling. Honestly, I am not. However, she is. So, I will now allow her to control her own destiny. It is ALL up to her. How have you all dealt with the anger at the OP. I will pound him one day regardless if she and I are together or not. I have discussed doing this with my attorney already and he is prepared. I hope that he died last night quite honestly.

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: KarlM ]</small>

Karl - when you moved out for 6 weeks and then came back, it sounds like that wasn't really plan B. It sound like there is waffling on both sides. Your wife has learned you are not serious about the separation, and has not fully experienced the consequences of a divorce. My suggestion is still the same, 1 month of plan A followed by 6 months of plan B, including the plan B letter. If you still want to do this.

Steve Harley could give you better advice over the phone. There is a poster on the JFO and GQ2 boards, "cerri", who is often able to help people.

The people on this DD board have probably done plans A and B, and know the mechanics, but it did not save our marriages. Our plans A and B could still have been successful in preparing us better for life after divorce, but you would rather have the other outcome. I think you should consider those other two boards, or the phone counseling, for other advice and support. FWIW, I think MB was the only possible route of recovering my own marriage, so I would still recommend it.

If she is no longer with the OM and with you what is the point of plan B. She told you what the score is that she is not remorseful for having the affair and in not in love with you. Her lack of intimacy with you confirm that very clearly. The fact that she wanted to reconcile was for reasons of security and stability for her children. That is why there is no interest in MB or willingness to do whatever is necessary to make up for the affair.

KarlM be extremely careful of your W, for I have read your reply to rufustfirefly. I hope I'm dead wrong about this but I would watch my back if I were you. She could again attempt to screw you legally if she thought that she could get away with it.

Thanks CoffeeMan. I am being EXTREMELY cautious now and will be for a long time. I do have the fear that when my divorce filing expires at the end of this month, that she will turn to the woman she was before. If she makes any turn in that direction, my attorney and I have agreed that I will leave immediately. I still have many hours on tape that I hope could help me of any false accusations.

as a WS, myself, i wanted nothing to do with xW during supposed 'reconcile' sounds like she's totally checked out, and it may have to run its course. as a newcomer, i'm observering and learning, but i see this from my own reference point. i'm sorry to hear this but will pray for you. it took me to yrs to give up OW after D was final. and its been a yr since. its a brutal process and the hardest thing i've ever dealt with, giving up OW. but at my core i knew this, but couldn't, so even wanting to do it,(give up OW), i couldn 't. it wasn't spinelessness, spare me, it was that once eeds ignored were being met elsewhere, i was totally checked out. this may take a loooong time, i know mine is!!!