Here's the Getting Divorced Checklist for those men that have made the decision to divorce their WW's.

And ladies, while I have no simpathy for men who cheat on their W's and are terrible fathers, unfortunately the law does not make a distinction between good fathers and bad ones. When it comes to divorce, the family court may as well hang a sign outside that says: "Kill all fathers, and let God sort them out".

<small>[ May 14, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

EXCELLENT INFO!!!!

TooMuchCoffeeMan,

As a faithful wife who has been physically, emotionally, mentally and verbally abused by a mentally ill, sexaholic unfaithful husband, who cheated on my 13 times and is now dragging out the divorce AND not paying any kind of child support or alimony or in any way, shape or form helping with HIS children or HIS home or HIS bills, I am not only highly insulted by this post, I am infuriated.

I have a newsflash for you buddy, I am not the only faithful spouse on this list either, and for you to ENCOURAGE men to act this way toward their wives is just unbelievable!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> GETTING DIVORCED CHECKLIST

Preface: At this point I really have to recommend seeing and working with a good marriage or couples counselor before proceeding down this financially and emotionally expensive road. I'm preparing you for the worst case scenario with my best personal advice, you may have a sane ex-wife and not need to use all of it. With that said here we go:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words, do not bother to go to the marriage counselor to actually work on RECONCILING the marriage--just go as a cover while you accomplish the following underhanded tasks. TMCM, this is bull!! Apparently I was stupid enough to go to the marriage counselor and actually WORK on my marriage and want it to be better!! What a naive fool, I guess, because meanwhile my stbxH was following THIS advice!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>EVERTHING BELOW IS VITALLY IMPORTANT!

1. Be pleasant, agreeable, careful, and secretive until you complete items #1,#2, #3, #4, #5 (see related story).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah. This would explain why my WH would rage at me until 3am in the morning, blame me for his affairs, and keep telling me that *I* was the crazy one while he went from one affair to the next! This is what being secretive gets you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. Pay off all outstanding debts, credit cards, loans, second mortgages and anything else in YOUR NAME or JOINT ACCOUNTS you might have while you are STILL married and going to marriage or couples counseling. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU WILL DO! (Be sure not to pay bills exclusively in her name with your money) (see related story).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the fact that the two people in the marriage were working together for a common goal for the entire marriage is worthless, huh? Or the fact that I put him through college so WE could buy the big fancy house--or the fact that he insisted on putting all the utilities in HIS name because he didn't like the way I hooked up phone, electricity etc. when we moved. Once again, this is just more bigoted, hateful talk!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. If you make more than your ex-wife or your ex-wife doesn't work, you may be required to pay PERMANENT ALIMONY of 15-60% of your gross salary for the rest of your life - even if you get remarried and have new kids (no kidding check the law). In Maryland, and many other states Courts often award PERMANENT ALIMONY to the ex-wife to maintain her "standard of living" under some unwritten law to preserve the ex-wife's environment with the children - they don't care about the men's environment at all (no kidding check the law). So if you're working two jobs and taking loans to pay for your current "standard of living", then immediately move to smaller house (preferably rent), and DOWNSIZE your income SUBSTAINTIALLY and quickly at least 6 months before you wife files for divorce, so the judge has no strong basis for setting a high "standard of living" for your ex and to minimize your IMPUTED INCOME. If your ex-wife doesn't work at all then you are automatically eligible for Permanent Alimony, so it would be wise to immediately leave your current job to see more of the kids and change your career to something without ANY gross income like starting to write a book or something. (see related story)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh right! How foolish of me! The fact that we had an AGREEMENT that when we had children I would stay home with them and he would work makes ME the evil SAHM. TMCM this is just hate through and through and I am appalled you would promote it! In my marriage, I did stay home with the kids and gave up my career because our children meant more to us that money. Thus, my lying-cheating WH's career was advanced and promoted, while my career became stagnant. Yet, I should be made to live at minimum wage--usually supporting all the children by myself I might add--because I chose to put my KIDS before my JOB??? Isn't there some part even of a man's head, that recognizes that by staying home, I promoted the FAMILY and that includes the MAN??? And yes, I am DUE alimony--it is my right and privilege--not because of some unjust, unfair "legality" but because I contributed to the overall advancement of the family by caring for the kids, by being in charge of the household chores, by supporting my H's work at home at night, by working myself part time when the kids were in school... Thus, no offense, but if I was faithful and a contributing member of the marriage contract, why should my standard of living PLUMMET because my WH chose to stick it to some other woman and break the contract. I have the Right to not live at poverty level because he was promoted because of my contributions!!! HELLOO!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. Any property of yours that has irreplaceable sentimental value, send it immediately to a family member (preferably out of state for legal reasons). This includes expensive TVs, collectibles, heirlooms, china, watches, or whatever things would be hard or impossible to get again. This is so you wont loose all this stuff in the property settlement to come. Also give family members "loans" of large amounts of your money, so that you have enough to pay for your legal defense over the year ahead. Otherwise, any money left lying around under your name will be juicily carved up at Property Settlement. Also, this is a good time to secretly get your best clothes out of the house (see #7). Tell her you're taking them to good will if she asks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BALONEY!! Are you encouraging men here to LIE directly so they can hide assets and rip off their own families and children!! This is an outrage!!! Did it ever occur to you that you can afford the "big expensive TV" because your wife contributed?? No--according to this checklist, if you want it and it's expensive or valuable, hide it and lie so the evil wife can't get it.

Don't forget to empty out all the joint accounts so that your wife and children are left penniless with no way to survive!! Oh, and by the way, you know how she contributed to the joint account too? Well, we wouldn't want that equally divided or anything. She should get all the leftover cr@p and you should get all the cool, expensive TVs!

TMCM, this is just too much!! My unfaithful H moved out and the next day, took all the money out of both of our checking accounts, stopped paying the mortgage which is in HIS name and is titled in HIS name, abandoned all the bills that are in HIS name and set up extravagantly, hasn't paid a penny of child support in six months and keeps delaying the hearing so he won't have to (not to mention not giving a [censored] if we live or die)--AND THIS IS THE BEHAVIOR YOU ARE ADVOCATING???!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>5. Don't get involved with another woman anywhere that a Private Investigator (PI) might be able to follow you - no kidding, this happens 60% of the time! Or the Judge will slam you, even if your wife was originally cheating on you. Unless either of you can prove it in court with photos or a PI on the stand, the Judge won't care, but be warned that you can and will often be sworn in under oath "under penalties of perjury" to testify on the stand that you have not "been with another woman" before the divorce was finalized. (this sucks for men because this process can take a full year or more, and going without sex with a woman for a year is unbearable for most healthy males). You can get really screwed if a PI even sees a woman spend an overnight with you or you with her. Even just the "opportunity to have sex" is considered by almost all judges to be "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". Be secretive and careful, and remember the famous lawyer and President "Bill Clinton" tap dancing around what "he mentally defined sex as". Maybe you want to mentally redefine it as "sex with a woman that is wearing a purple necklace and green earrings, all other colors are don't really count as sex", just so you can pull a Bill Clinton maneuver too. In Maryland, oral sex is not legally defined as "Sex or adultery", but some vindictive judge can still screw you over it even if they're not supposed to. I am not telling you to lie on the stand, but the law is VERY VERY gray don't give it any more help than it needs. Don't lie, but volunteer no information! You can always exercise your Fifth Amendment rights not to self incriminate yourself on the witness stand. (more about this in another story) I still don't recommend spending a lot of time meeting woman, instead it is better to use this time for self improvement and self discovery, (more about this in another story)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right...but if you can get involved with a woman secretly and in the dark where no one can see you and at her place--making sure the place is not buggedd--why then BY ALL MEANS. After all, any healthy male NEEDS to screw and couldn't possibly be expected to be faithful and committed to keeping his family together or providing for his children (who depend on him) or his wife (who supported him, encouraged him, and contributed to the improvement of his life and career).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>6. Be Aware that the parent not living with the children at least 50% of the time, must pay the other parent Pendente Lite Child Support. This usually comes out to about 40%-60% of the man's GROSS INCOME before federal and state taxes, bills, mortgage, and everything. (see why #2 is so damn important!). If any bills remain (see #2) are in YOUR NAME, you HAVE to pay 100% of the bill, even if you don't live where the mortgage is being paid, or where the items are being used. With a $6000 monthly income, you'll be lucky to have $900 left over to pay for your rent, food, car payment, gas, electric, socializing, clothes,etc.). This usually leaves you in the negative or penniless. This makes (#5) not dating much easier. (this law needs a MAJOR overhaul as well)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Darn right this law needs a major overhaul!!! If the cheating H buys a house without his wife's permisssion, gets it in HIS name and gets a mortgage in HIS name, and INFORMS her that he has sold their family home and she is now moving into another home--and if the WH puts all the utilities in HIS name because he is a controlling abuser--and then he decides his "on-the-side" honey is sweeter and dumps his wife and kids by the side of the road...WHY OH WHY SHOULD HE BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING HIS MORTGAGE?? OR HIS BILLS??? After all, he's not living there...or using the electricity. No, he only left his wife without a job and with three kids and no way to feed them or provide for their basic human needs so he could go off and be a healthy male! It's not as if he signed any legally binding contracts--except, oops...the mortgage which HE arranged when HE bought the house in HIS name. And it's not as if he had some kind of agreement or understanding with his wife that if she stayed home and took care of their children, he would be the provider--and now he's just abandoning that responsibility.

This law needs major overhauling in my opinion to specifically spell out in CLEAR CUT LANGUAGE that if one spouse breaks the marriage contract by cheating on the other, they pay the other spouse entirely PERIOD. Healthy male bull or not. I held up my end of the bargain, and my WH walked away scott free!!!! He stopped paying his mortgage and no one said boo. He stopped paying all his bill and no one said boo. He has not contributed one dime to the wellfare of his own children and no on said boo. And it will be postponed and postponed until finally there is an order (oh swift justice), which he will then duck and avoid and try to pay half or part...

If your name is on the darn mortgage and your name is on the darn title, then you are responsible to pay the darn bill--it's just that simple!!! If your name is on the bills at home, then you are responsible to pay the darn bill. If you made babies with a woman and pretended to be a family, then you are responsible to pay for the wellfare of those children for the rest of their lives--but only until they're 18 at home!! If you break the marriage contract, then in my mind, you pay the spouse who DIDN'T break the contract and who held up their end of the bargain--it's just that simple!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>7. Beware the ex-parte (aka Restraining Order). This has to be one of the most diabolical and abused legal weapons against men by women getting divorced and this law needs a major overhaul! (see related story). A woman can simply call the cops and say that you've "threatened her" and you will be greeted at the door of your own house (that you've paid $80,000.00 on so far) by several police officers with bad attitudes even if none of the story is true. Most police officers automatically assume you are dangerous and will treat you in the harshest manner possible. Never, ever, loose your temper, scream, yell, push past an officer or resist them, touch them, or threaten them, even if they're doing your ex-wife's dirty work and it's a total lie! If your ex's gets an ex-parte Order, you will be locked out of your house with only the clothes on your back and not be allowed back inside! (no joke check the law). You will have to wait weeks to appeal a restraining order and will be homeless and not be allowed to see your own children until then.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I will admit that there are some women who use RO's as a way to basically get custody and get the house. I know that does happen. But what about the woman like me?? The one who has been screamed at until 3am, but never hit? The one who had the door pulled off the refrig in RAGE, and who cowered in terror while her property was destroyed--but has no bruise? The wife who was locked out of the house at night in the rain "to teach her a lesson"? The wife who is loudly and vigorously threatened and blocked and accused and called HORRIBLE names, but has not scar to prove it? The one who wakes up at 5am to find her ex standing at the foot of her bed--even though the house was locked up at night? The wife who's husband enters her house when he knows she is away, only to surprise one of the kids who decided not to go? Who goes through the house, takes things, hunts through computers, damages walls--"but never hit her"?

Now, when I go to the judge and tell him that my ex called me at 5am, 5:15am, 5:30am, 6am, etc. etc. telling me he was going to take the kids and disappear...or come over and kill us all...or he was going to get me for divorcing him--guess what TMCM?? All I'm doing is going before a judge and telling him that my WH threatened me. And now, because of sites like this, the judges and courts are jaded, and I have to prove AGAIN that I'm not just imagining it, or blowing it out of proportion, or using it as a divorce weapon--I AM LITERALLY AND REASONABLY IN FEAR FOR MY SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF MY CHILDREN AND PETS, AND I CAN NOT "PROVE" IT BECAUSE I HAVE NO DARN BRUISES!!! My WH has beat me and beat me and beat me down emotionally in ways that are horrendous if I ever told them to you, but I have no scar and I can never show you evidence that it's "REAL"!!!!! I am defenseless and at his mercy. He can come into my home any time he wants--because remember, it is in HIS name--he's just not responsible to pay the bill. And he can say anything he wants, as long as he doesn't HIT me, right?? Why should I be afraid just because he threatens to take my children when I'm not watching them? Why should I fear for my safety just because I wake up to find him in my room looking down on me in hatred??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>8. Wear a concealed micro tape recorder so you have "PROOF" that you did not threaten your ex-wife. The cops will still take you out of your own home you own, but when you meet the judge at the Ex-Parte Trial a week later, you will have recorded "PROOF" that she lied. Otherwise, the Ex-Parte judges believe the woman side in domestic violence cases 99.99% of the time and can extend the Restraining Order for up to a YEAR. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I agree with. Carry a micro tape and listen to it--maybe you'll hear why your spouse FEARS you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>9. Totally unlike women (see #7), a Man has to have severe injury involving blood (i.e. stab wounds, loss of eye, broken nose, bleeding patch of hair, broken bloodied teeth, broken bones,etc.) in order to successfully win an Ex-Parte Order against his ex wife. Judges are so damn unfair to men in domestic violence courts as compared to women - even in light of a divorce when it should be apparent that its's being used as a "tool" to get "daddy" out of the house. Many groups count these types of abuses in their statistics against battered women, etc, which is unfair. It is imperative to note, that even if no threat or abuse ever really happened, if the judge rules that there was a threat - the threat becomes a FINDING OF FACT BY THE COURT OF LAW (check the law). Your only recourse is to pay for a lengthy appeal process that will take months and thousands of dollars while you are still "Dead-Bolted" out by the kids "mom". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SEE?? Unless there is a scar, wound or bruise there was no abuse. Why should domestic violence count burning books, destroying property, kicking pets, throwing them up against the wall, and ripping doors off the hinges as "domestic violence"--the women weren't battered, just their possessions were. Or, could it be that the abusive, controlling spouse is smart enough to realize that if they actually HIT the other, they will go to jail, so they stop JUST SHORT of anything physical on that person's body and just attack their soul, mind, and emotions--with just enough threats of violence and just enough harm to pets and property to make sure to communicate "Any time I WANT to hurt you or the kids, I can, so you better do what I say."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>10. Realize that Family Law is totally unfair to men, and that decades of men sitting idly by while radical groups peel-away men's rights under the guise of woman's rights and sexual equality, and has cost men the basic human right to even see their own children or live in their own homes during divorce (if the woman is so inclined). Actually, statistics show that women DO get very mean spirited and vindictive during divorce and the current Family Law system becomes her weapon of revenge. (see related story)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">REALIZE THIS--for years women cooked, cleaned, managed the household, and raised the children only to be dumped by their ungrateful, philandering husbands with NO legal recourse whatsoever--women and children abandoned while their husbands lived the life of Reilly with their new squeeze and gave little or nothing to their own children or the wife of their youth. Well, now, FINALLY, women have organized enough to say NO MORE!! and you have the AUDACITY to say "no fair"??? You're kidding me!! Is it fair for a man to be abusive to his own family for decades? to have 13 affairs and blame his wife? to rage and threaten? And here's a newsflash for you...statistics show that just as many MEN get mean and vindictive during divorce because they wipe out checking accounts, steal the expensive TV, abandon their families and responsibilities, and then say, "Why are you being such a b!tch? You aren't letting me have everything AND get away with it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>11. Keep a detailed journal and document everything, including general things about where you were during the day. Be sure to include time stamped receipts with your signature to prove your whereabouts, or the names and numbers of witnesses. Anything less, does not prove "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" that you were actually somewhere else. This keeps your Family Law case out of another Criminal Law case for violating a Restraining Order (see #7). (Gosh, I can't tell you how much this happens to decent guys!). This doubles your legal expenses and stress levels, and gives your ex and her attorney more ammunition to zap you with at property settlement and the final divorce order.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep another detailed journal itemizing every hour you spend with your children...every dollar you spend on your children...every way in which you make their life easier and more stable...every time you go to their school or their games or performances...every time you take time off of work to take them to the doctor...every time you stay up late to make them lunches...every time you pass on a haircut or a PC gadget so your child can get a CD they want...every time your disney spouse comes in and buys them just what you can't afford...every time you stay up all night trying to figure out if you will buy groceries or pay the electric bill...every time you've put your kids' lives ahead of a business meeting or a round of golf or beers with the buddies...every time you stayed up all night with your little girl while she threw up--then cleaned it up--and then tried to go to work the next day. Yeah. Keep THAT journal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>12. Seek out a good men's support group, counselor, family, and friends to for emotional support. If you we're secretive about #5, you will be better off and have a companion to help make some good times through the bad times. Don't got for the wimpy men's groups that just wallow in self pity and tears, try to find one with "courage, brains, legal and political know how like GuysGoingOut.com's Divorce support groups for men.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words, if you have OW on the side, hidden away in a dark, secret hole somewhere, at least you'll have someone supporting you as you abandon your family and responsibilities so you won't feel like such a loser. I believe her name is Miss Family Values.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>13. Find a Lawyer because your ex-wife probably already has a lawyer and neglected to tell you. Her lawyer is probably advising her to provoke you and instigate a fight with you (see #8) so you'll loose your temper and yell at her so she can file an Ex-Parte against you - you must NEVER raise your voice or THREATEN TO HARM your ex-wife. You need a lawyer with at least 5 years of winning experienced representing men in Family Law. You do not want a lawyer that does Criminal Law, and Family Law only part time for fun and extra money, as they will make many blunders and cost extra time at about $150-$300 per HOUR. (see: How To Find the Right Divorce Lawyer for Men) Law firms have the advantage where many attorneys can work your case during "busy periods" and pool their resources giving you an edge; however this can comes at a much higher cost than a single attorney.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Get a lawyer to really stir things up, drag this out, and make everyone pay. Don't even CONSIDER trying to be reasonable and working it out like two adults. Go for the jugular and take away EVERYTHING, including all possiblities of dignity and pride. Crush-kill-destroy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>14. 80% of all marriages are ended by the women (facts many groups hide vigorously), so usually its just a matter of time before you get served Divorce Papers. Brace yourself, you're in for one hell of a bad year to come! You just have to hang in there and not despair when you are forced to pay the mortgage for a house you cant live in while your ex wife's and her new boyfriend can. Or the despair when you feel when your Child Support money goes for vacations, new cars, gifts, and good times with boyfriends while the kids have ill-fitting clothes with holes in them (See: The Truth About Divorce They Don't Want Anybody to Know ). But there is light, a better love life, freedom and a new life to start a new meaningful relationship at the end of the tunnel, as long as you haven't been too abused by your ex-wife and the Family Courts. Don't file first if at all possible so you can fully achieve checklists #1-#5, then you can file.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to be sick. I don't want my WH to pay the mortgage so my BF can live here! I DON'T HAVE A BOYFRIEND. Just because he is keeping a secret companion doesn't mean I am. I want him to pay the mortgage and pay child support so the kids and I don't end up homeless...so they aren't forced to lose their family, their father, their home, their room and their neighborhood friends all at the same time. I want him to pay so I don't have to buy groceries but let my phone be disconnected!!

And my guess would be that 80% of divorces are filed by women who have been emotionally and physically abandoned; who are so sick of being ignored, neglected and disrespected that they filed; who finally have the courage to say "no more mistresses"; and who for once and for all are not going to be intimidated, threatened, controlled or abused anymore!!!

TooMuchCoffeeMan, this article that you espouse is nothing short of bigoted hatred, and as a woman and as an abused spouse I am highly insulted. These kinds of Nazi divorce tactics do nothing more than promote lies and make it worse, and I am ashamed that some are going to think this is "good advice!" Shame on you. I will not be party to this propoganda, and I will not let it be promoted without at least bringing the truth to light!!!

For abused women everywhere, I sign myself,

FAITHFULWIFE!!!!!

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

What have you been drinking?
did you switch to something that causes you to
loose your senses?
you don't really agree with the things you posted?
Do you?

I am disturbed by what I read in this Divorce list
as we are here to try to work it out..

I agree with Faithful Wife.
this part is adressed to her..
__________________________________
BRAVO!! Brilliant!

I also felt angry and sad, and had alot of emotions stirred up again.
thank you for the rebuttal..
I think my hubby had gotton this list
because he did alot that is in it
________
I was a loving and faithful wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

husband was a cheat and a liar, dishonest
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> "A BULLY" liked to hurt and cause pain, sneaky,
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> uncaring and had no sense of responsibility to anyone but himself. He came first. SELFISH...
uncommitted. unfaithful! the list is endless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

________________________________________________
Faithful wife.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
I could not have done this good a job with the rebuttal.

I agree with you on all points. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for giving me voice.

perhaps we need to send you to Washington to
represent us

God bless you and KEEP ON KEEPING ON!

ANOTHER

"FAITHFUL WIFE"

FaithfulWife what are you afraid of? The truth?

TooMuchCoffee,

Oh, come on, did you really think you were going to make a lot of friends with that link? For Pete's sake, don't you realize that we are in the women's room? Men are outnumberer here about ten to one!

There's not a darn thing in that check list that hasn't been thought of and pulled off by both men and women. In fact, it is not unheard of for second wives to encourage this kind of behavior toward former wives.

Bottom line, that link really isn't appropriate for Marriage Builders. The idea is to try to save marriages, and barring that to help folks who must divorce to do so in a way that they will at least be able to cooperate in the best interest of their children. They need to build good will, not create more animosity.

That thread is designed to evoke a vitrolic response. Any further battering back and forth on the topic is just going to make enemys. Most of us came here looking for friends. And friends don't tell their friends to do stuff like that.

It is respectfully suggested that you think about deleteing this thread.

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Bumperii ]</small>

I thought this forum was here to provide support for people going through divorces... not to guide people in a divorce to saving their marriage... maybe there's a cross-over.

All divorces are terrible. We have the option of passively letting our spouses drive the divorce... or we can take control of the divorce process and make it happen. Everyone wants to be the "victim" in a divorce... and the pity-parties are endless. But, at some point, you'll realize that your divorce isn't about "being the most victimized" or scoring the most "pity points". It's about cutting losses and getting on with one's life.

Play it smart or play it passive. I appreciated the intent of the post. I actually read that link when I was considering divorce. For every dv source for men, I found 3 aimed at women... that taught them everything from creating a self-sufficient lifestyle off the husband's earnings forever, to inciting certain kinds of behavior that would "punish" the husband. It was an odd bias that... men's articles tended to focus on protecting oneself while women's tended to focus on punishment.

How could a WOMAN ever be at fault?!?

And, in the end, aren't both spouses at fault? I wish to God that my divorce had been settled in mediation. It wasn't. I wish to God my divorce had been settled in the early stages of lawyer/gladiators negotiating. It wasn't. I wish more than anything else, that I had spent less time at the office and more time with my wife during our marriage... and pray to forget the memories of how she betrayed and manipulated our relationship for her affair's sake.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lyxa:
<strong>I thought this forum was here to provide support for people going through divorces... not to guide people in a divorce to saving their marriage... maybe there's a cross-over.

All divorces are terrible. We have the option of passively letting our spouses drive the divorce... or we can take control of the divorce process and make it happen. Everyone wants to be the "victim" in a divorce... and the pity-parties are endless. But, at some point, you'll realize that your divorce isn't about "being the most victimized" or scoring the most "pity points". It's about cutting losses and getting on with one's life.

Play it smart or play it passive. I appreciated the intent of the post. I actually read that link when I was considering divorce. For every dv source for men, I found 3 aimed at women... that taught them everything from creating a self-sufficient lifestyle off the husband's earnings forever, to inciting certain kinds of behavior that would "punish" the husband. It was an odd bias that... men's articles tended to focus on protecting oneself while women's tended to focus on punishment.

How could a WOMAN ever be at fault?!?

And, in the end, aren't both spouses at fault? I wish to God that my divorce had been settled in mediation. It wasn't. I wish to God my divorce had been settled in the early stages of lawyer/gladiators negotiating. It wasn't. I wish more than anything else, that I had spent less time at the office and more time with my wife during our marriage... and pray to forget the memories of how she betrayed and manipulated our relationship for her affair's sake.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THANK YOU LYXA.

Your post demonstrates the hypocrisy that exists on this board and society. If this thread had been started by a female member and the thread had titled 'Divorce Checklist (for women)' do you actually beleived that this kind of uproar would have occurred?

The fact is that these tactics are very similar to the ones that have been given to women to get the best on their divorces whether they are worthy or not. Again hypocrisy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

First, no, I'm not afraid of the truth.

I just agree with Bumperii. We are on a Marriage Builder site, not a "Take Your Spouse for All They're Worth" site or "Go for the Jugular" site. What I'm saying is NOT that all men are cheating jerks or that all women are lying sluts--I'm just saying that the advice on that site is hateful and vicious and that is NOT what we are about here on MB!

To be clear, I believe that usually BOTH spouses participate in the meltdown of the marriage--one may do more "activities" and one may have more issues and behave very inappropriately, but they BOTH neglected things that needed attention. And just to be clear, I do not think this is a "christian" site or a "save your marriage at all costs" site either--it is a site based on saving your marriage if you can, and if it is impossible, we have this forum to support each other and help each other get through it.

I get it that men have these sites, just as women do. But this kind of thing is an abomination to truly abused women AND it is just not appropriate HERE. Send it out over email--or go to a cheating forum--or a forum that promotes the most hateful, harmful divorce possible and post this.

Finally, this will be my final word. I will not participate in a "fight" on this thread. I also will not just sit quietly by while yet another truly abused woman can not get child support for her children and is made homeless because of sites like this--or NEEDS an R.O. but has to go before yet another jaded judge who doesn't believe her because the woman before her used the R.O. as a divorce weapon. I've always enjoyed TooMuchCoffeeMan--I just suspect he's been hurt by the courts and the divorce process just as we all have been. I vote for talking about THAT rather than promoting this propoganda.

Now, my gloves are off and you'all can debate if you want, but I won't.

CJ

I'd trade all of my bitterness, hurt, sense of offended justice, and sad memories to be holding and playing with our to-have-been-adopted child(ren) right now and sharing bright laughter and dreams with my x instead of...

...everything else.

The biases suck and they stick and they are real.

TMCM,

Wow, never thought I'd see you post something like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

While the family court system is definitely biased toward MOTHERS, not women, it became that way because until my generation few women held jobs outside the home. The laws were designed to protect the children. How fair would it be for a H to have an A and throw his married family out to the street? This DID happen.

Women and Mothers have realized their place in the world and their true worth. I say more power to them!

Do I think it's right for a woman to have an A, move out and take her innocent H to the cleaners? Of course not, but it happens a lot. It's equally wrong for a H to do that to his W. The laws should be made more equitable. Those that cheat should be made to pay. Male or female. That's my gut feeling but herein lies the rub...what about the kids?

W (err XW, not used to that yet) and I had it made final this past Monday, we had been separated since 12/01. That's a lot of time to think on both our parts. XW had an attorney, I consulted one several times but did not retain her.

Our first several months of separation were wicked as I was depressed and her and OM did some bad things and let me know about it.

We bantered and threatened each other with all kinds of legal stuff, all negative. Then...and I don't know why, we both went dark on each other, a mutually unplanned plan B. We were probably both sick of it.

A month or so later we resumed contact, can't remember who called who first but things were changing. We were being polite and asking about each other in caring ways. No mention about A at all on either of our parts.

She told me thought it best if we D because it would be too tough on the kids if we reconciled because they'd have to change school systems again (we live @150 miles apart). I agreed with her, we had thought about ourselves too long (2long) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We agreed between ourselves an amicable settlement which was more than fair to me considering she was a SAHM during our M. It was filed and accepted. I offered her more but she wouldn't accept, she said my forgiveness was more than enough for her. I still set up a small trust for the girls (14,6) just to make sure.

So last Monday we were divorced. That night we talked for several hours like we haven't talked in a year. I guess if you have to get a D, this is the way to do it.

My point in all of this is that even though she cheated on me, if I had followed the advice in that article you posted TMCM, I would still be in the process. We wouldn't have forgiven each other, and may have harbored bitterness for a very long time.

As it stands now, OM is gone, I am not seeing anyone and we both feel better about ourselves. Our lines of communication are not broken and we Both realize our faults. Even though we are D and there may be no reconciliation between us, this is a good feeling for both of us.

I apologize this was so long.
Good Luck TMCM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point in all of this is that even though she cheated on me, if I had followed the advice in that article you posted TMCM, I would still be in the process. We wouldn't have forgiven each other, and may have harbored bitterness for a very long time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may be true, BUT your situation is totally different than mine, for I had an ex-WW who was so vindictive (she had multiple A's, go figure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) and behavior so over the top violent, that nothing but a strong and aggressive legal attack was necessary to protect not only me but my daughters as well. I would be lying to you if I didn't say that at least two of the things on that checklist I have trouble agreeing with, but unfortunately, when you are dealing with an ex-WW like mine was at that time, cooperation was nothing more than a pipe dream.

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Great advise from the divorce check list,so many men get the shaft in a divorce, false accusations of abuse and restraining orders are the two most abused items in a divorce. when this happens, your house, assets and children are all taken away from you without even a trial for at least several weeks and possibly forever.IF/when its proven that the woman lied usually nothing happens to them, but let a man lie to a judge and see where he ends up. Two guys i know were greeted at their doors with police and restraining orders over false accusations of abuse, their wives, at the advise of a LIER, {I mean lawyer},went to the county and told them they were "scared" of their husbands,and WALA, instant restraining order, both guys were out of their homes for over 2 years, and they had 10 minutes to gather whatever they could carry out of the house, the rest was held hostage untill the divorce was final, one friends wife SOLD half of his stuff, and trashed the rest by tossing it out into the yard to rust,all the judge said was" sorry",he lost 10,000 worth of equipment, and got awarded 500.00 for "damages". If you dont get your personal stuff out many times you may as well kiss it goodby. The sad fact is the check list was made by guys who tried the " nice guy" route and got seriously screwed, what ticks most of you ladies off is the list helps LEVEL the playing field. It sort of takes all the incentives out of filing FALSE orders, dont it???

So, on the flip side of things though... I think that for a women it is SERIOUSLY WAY SUPER DOOPER HYPER CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH... that you:
- Learn the dv laws in your state. I read about too many women WHO DO NOT. If you are a man or a woman, you cannot AFFORD (in all aspects of that sense) to NOT LEARN THEM.
- Learn and accept that there is a fundamental difference between the LEGAL SYSTEM and The Law. One says how you do things, the other says what actually happens. It's nice to think that divorces are based on Law... they aren't; they are based on strategic manipulations of the 2 spouses involved. Either get with the program of being the manipulator... or get with the program of being the victim. There is strategic value to both... and the legal system is extremely biased to supporting women in the strategic VICTIM role. God forbid if you are a man in this role though.
- Most of the time, women do not plan for financial continuity after a divorce. I made it part of my mission in life to prevent my xWW from going bankrupt... and even helped her with some basic things to establish her own credit history when it became clear she didn't have one. Divorced women have a huge problem with loans and whatnot because they have no credit history.
- Lastly, the things in that checklist apply to women just as much to men. It's an either or proposition when you up against a vicious spouse... do you want to be on trial against false accusations... or do you want to be on trial for hiding assets?

If you haven't learned this yet... read it now and learn: Possession is MOST OF THE LAW. If you have the kids... you're more likely to keep them. If you have the money, you're more likely to keep it. If you have the photo albums, etc. If you have the cars, etc. If you have the house, etc. On paper, it's illegal to kick someone out of their house and change the locks and not let them back in... BUT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. And guess what? The keeper usually keeps the house. Anything that is important or has value to you (or to your spouse) you are better off to take and preserve it because you can't trust that they will preserve it. And, it is better to get sued or ordered to return something than to lose it forever... be it a priceless painting... or priceless relationships with your children.

Another important thing... divorce isn't necessarily about assets. It's about INFORMATION AND PRESENTATION. This is why having financial documents, receipts, and PROOF are so key to getting what you want. It's why people get so outraged about someone having "secret" assets. How you get the info is almsot irrelevant compared to the effects and leverage you get from having it.

Please folks let's let this topic die once and for all.