Are You A Believer??? This is what is happening to our families... Please don't let it be you!!! Peace and love... Kim...

Satan called a worldwide convention of demons. In
his opening address he said,

"We can't keep Christians from going to church."

"We can't keep them from reading their Bibles and
knowing the truth."

"We can't even keep them from forming an intimate
relationship with their savior."

"Once they gain that connection with Jesus, our
power over them is broken."

"So let them go to their churches; let them have
their covered Dish dinners, but steal their time,
so they don't have time to develop a relationship with Jesus Christ."

"This is what I want you to do", said the devil.
"Distract them from gaining hold of their Savior and
maintaining that vital connection throughout their
day!"

"How shall we do this?" his demons shouted.
"Keep them busy in the nonessentials of life and
invent innumerable schemes to occupy their minds,"
he answered.

"Tempt them to spend, spend, spend, and borrow,
borrow, borrow. Persuade the wives to go to work for
long hours and the husbands to work 6-7 days each
week, 10-12 hours a day, so they can afford their
empty lifestyles.

Keep them from spending time with their children. As
their families fragment, soon, their homes will
offer no escape from the pressures of work!"

"Over-stimulate their minds so that they cannot hear
that still, small voice."

"Entice them to play the radio or cassette player
whenever they drive...to keep the TV, VCR, CDs and
their PCs going constantly in their home and see to
it that every store and restaurant in the world
plays non-biblical music constantly. This will jam
their minds and break that union with Christ."

"Fill the coffee tables with magazines and
newspapers. Pound their minds with the news 24 hours
a day. Invade their driving moments with billboards.
Flood their mailboxes with junk mail, mail order
catalogs, sweepstakes, and every kind of newsletter
and promotional offering free products, services and
false hopes."

"Keep skinny, beautiful models on the magazines and
TV so their husbands will believe that outward
beauty is what's important, and they'll become
dissatisfied with their wives Keep the wives too
tired to love their husbands at night. Give them
headaches too! If they don't give their husbands the
love they need, they will begin to look elsewhere."

"That will fragment their families quickly!"

"Give them Santa Claus to distract them from
teaching their children the real meaning of
Christmas. Give them an Easter bunny so they won't
talk about his resurrection and power over sin and
death."
"Even in their recreation, let them be
excessive...have them return from their recreation
exhausted. Keep them too busy to go out in nature
and reflect on God's creation. Send them to
amusement parks!, sporting events, plays, concerts,
and movies instead."
"Keep them busy, busy, busy!"

"And when they meet for spiritual fellowship,
leave with troubled consciences."

"Crowd their lives with so many good causes they
have no time to seek power from Jesus. Soon they
will be working in their own strength, sacrificing
their health and family for the good of the cause."
"It will work!"
"It will work!"

It was quite a plan! The demons went eagerly to
their assignments causing Christians everywhere to
Having little time for their God or their families.
Having no time to tell others about the power of
Jesus to change lives. I guess the question is, has
the devil been successful at his scheme?
You be the judge! Does "busy" mean:
B-eing
U-nder
S-atan's
Y-oke?

Very interesting, but if God gave us free will to exercise it, then we can't blame Satan for the choices we make, otherwise all sinners would not be held responsible for their bad choices and would be allowed to go to heaven just like the righteous, and we know that is simply not the case, is it?

It's like WS putting all the blame on the BS and/or OP for his/her choice to have an A.

<small>[ May 14, 2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

very true... we cannot blame satan for our choices.... but he is the deciever/the author of lies and confusion... and if one doesn't know that then they can get caught up in the deception... to me that's all this point's out...

see it's very easy to see big sins, but the things ppl think are okay, those are the sins of commission... they don't know... that's how so many of christians get caught up in things that start to cause termiol in their lives and their families...

but i'm not going to get into a spiritual battle over this one... i am a believer and i love the Lord... and i was only sharing... not judging or condeming... peace and love...
kim...

peace and love
kim...

Hi Kim! Good 2 C U again here. We miss you in 'The Kingdom' - I think it's the Princess & me keeping this thing alive...
Hope everything is going better for you and you're holding up.
Harold

With all due respect, I have some serious issues with the assertions in the vignette in the original post.

Let me be upfront about my beliefs: I am an agnostic, and as such consider "Satan" to be as real and present as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

That said, onto the specific problems:

"Persuade the wives to go to work for
long hours and the husbands to work 6-7 days each
week, 10-12 hours a day, so they can afford their
empty lifestyles."

For one, this implies that a "woman's place is in the home." I thought we'd gotten past that.

For another, before the rise of modern urban/industrial culture, men (and women) would work from sunrise to sunset. Before the 40-hour week and child labor laws were established, men, women, and children worked terribly long hours in often brutal and dangerous conditions...and still could not afford "empty" lifestyles.

The "good old days" weren't always so good.

"Over-stimulate their minds so that they cannot hear that still, small voice."

So we should under-stimulate our minds? The mind is a powerful thing. Suggesting that we should dumb ourselves down sounds like what they used to do in medieval times: keep the masses ignorant and illiterate so you can tell them what to believe.

"Entice them to play the radio or cassette player whenever they drive...to keep the TV, VCR, CDs and their PCs going constantly in their home and see to it that every store and restaurant in the world plays non-biblical music constantly. This will jam their minds and break that union with Christ."

Unless, of course, the radio plays Christian music? What about Christian TV networks, movies and books (like Left Behind) and the massive number of Christian websites? Are these also the work of Satan?

"Fill the coffee tables with magazines and
newspapers. Pound their minds with the news 24 hours a day."

Magazines, newspapers, and 24-hour news channels keep millions of people more informed than at any other time in history. On the other hand, if you keep someone isolated from this constant flood of information, you can more easily mold their view of the world. It is happening in the madrassas that are increasingly responsible for the education of young martyrs in countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Ignorance and prejudice walk hand in hand.

"Keep the wives too tired to love their husbands at night. Give them headaches too! If they don't give their husbands the love they need, they will begin to look elsewhere."

Again, this points to the possibility that the author of this tract has a rather misogynistic view of women. Aren't wives more than just sex objects? Isn't marriage more than just sex?

"Give them Santa Claus to distract them from
teaching their children the real meaning of
Christmas. Give them an Easter bunny so they won't
talk about his resurrection and power over sin and
death."

Yet if Christmas and Easter were droll, somber affairs, they wouldn't be as widely celebrated, would they? Christmas is an almost universally celebrated holiday in America. Without the lights, presents, and flashy wrapping paper, I doubt that the popularity of the holiday would continue.

Also remember that both Christmas and Easter are merely continuations of seasonal celebrations that were around long before Christianity.

"Even in their recreation, let them be
excessive...have them return from their recreation
exhausted."

Again, a little historical perspective is in order. A hundred years ago, there wasn't nearly as much leisure time as there is today. Is it because people were more pious? Hardly! They were too exhausted from working the above-mentioned long hours to bother with recreation. It seems the author is implying that a higher standard of living (with the added recreation time that naturally follows) leads directly to evil.

"Crowd their lives with so many good causes they have no time to seek power from Jesus."

So, Satan is the root of all good causes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

As I said before, I believe in Satan about as much as I believe in the monster that used to hide under my bed, so I don't see a sinister plot to keep us "busy," Also, as I alluded to before, we aren't any less busy than we used to be...we're just busy with different things.

Instead of toiling away in the fields or factories of our ancestors, we're free to spend more of our time involved in other activities...including going to church.

Depending on which survey you read, anywhere from 92-97 percent of Americans profess to a belief in God, with about 75 percent specifically Christian. Church membership in America has actually been steadily rising since 1776.

Maybe this "plan" isn't working so well, after all!

dear c..

i'm sorry that you were offended and that you are a non-believer.

the first sentence should have alerted you that this specific post was not for you...

it is not valuable or godly to argue the above points with you, while i could give an argument to each one. i'm sad that you have taken so much time to disprove, in your mind, the value of living and believing Godliness.

you have a complete right to your opinion and your beleifs. as do i. and i believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and my Savior. i choose to believe this whether any one else in the whole world believes or not.

i also believe that satan is very real as is hell. i don't believe as stated above that satan is responsible for every poor decision made on behalf of the christian.

again, i'm sorry that you have been offended. let me offer you some advise, the next time the post says in the beginning "for believers" that you should close it and seek one more beneficial to you...

God Bless you!!!
Kim...
A Lover of the Lord until the day i die!!!

Idostylin,

A couple of points:

First, I assumed that you were not the author of the story in that post. I was not responding to YOU, but rather to the points raised. In that sense, I was not "offended," I just had problems with what the story implied.

Also, don't be "sorry" that I'm a non-believer. There is this odd notion prevalent among Christians that non-beleivers are somehow inferior or flawed because of that non-belief. I am not. I'm as comfortable in my belief system as you are.

Thirdly, I was not attempting to "disprove" or argue the value of "living and believing Godliness." I was arguing that Godliness is not necessarily a rejection of modernity. I was arguing that Godliness is not a rejection of recreation, or music, or entertainment, or joy. There are plenty of believers out there who have no problem with adapting to modern life. At the other end of the spectrum are folks like the Amish, who feel that anything invented since the Industrial Revolution is the "devil's work."

Again, I'm not attempting to challenge your faith or anyone else's...I'm just trying to express a different opinion.

The original post began with a question: Are you a believer? My answer was "no, but here's what I think anyway."

I would suggest that next time, if you don't want a reply from someone like me, simply begin your post with "Christians only please."

i see that you want to argue... i see that you are trying your best to stir me... and i must admit that you have done it... but i still will not lower myself to this...

you have rationalized your reasons for unbelief. you are sooooooo wrong... but it seems rational to you... witch is your business...

you may have been responding to the writer of the above, but my posting it was because i am in agreement with it...

as far as me being sorry that you are an unbeliever... i am sorry... not because i think that i am better than you are, because i am certainly not, but because my beliefs tell me that your soul is lost. and for that i am sorry... whether you accept it or not...

please do not continue provoking me. you may not consider it a personal attack but i do... and i think it is time that you kept your opinions to yourself...
and in the future when you see anything with my name posted don't even bother entering in. because you know that i am what you hate... A BELIEVER!!!

Maybe you need to go back and read what I wrote.

It began with "with all due respect."

Again, I was not offended. I was trying to present a different point of view. I was not attacking you.

I am not looking for an argument, but since you posted the piece, you should expect that not everyone will agree with it.

I don't. You do. I'm not trying to provoke or attack you, but you are taking my responses WAY to personally, and attacking ME personally in return.

Also, I did not "rationalize" my beliefs at all. I addressed what I thought were the salient points in that story, and said very little about my own beliefs and WHY I have them. You've made several assumptions about what I believe and why. Don't do that.

I enjoy debating religious issues, but only if it can be done respectfully and without ad hominem attacks. Apparently you can't do this.

If you think that someone disagreeing with you is an attack, then I don't know what to think.

If you think that it is "lowering yourself" to engage in a civil, reasonable discussion with someone of a different faith, then I don't know what to think.

It seems you are saying "here's what I believe, and if you disagree with it, you aren't worthy of anything but scorn."

I don't hate BELIEVERS, btw. I AM offended that you would put such words in my mouth. It would be a lonely life for me if I had such feelings. My XW was a born-again Christian, and I respected that. My best friend is a devout Catholic, and I respect that. Unfortunately, I don't often get that respect in return.

I DO have a problem with self-righteous people who look down on everyone who doesn't believe what they believe, and feel "sorry" for those whom they think are "wrong."

What also bothers me is the fact that it is still perfectly acceptable in this country to discriminate against non-believers. It is okay to be rude to non-believers. It is acceptable to blame non-believers for all that is wrong with the world.

If I were Jewish, or Hindu, or Muslim, I would be afforded at least a modicum of respect for my beliefs. It would be at least impolite if I were a devout Muslim and you told me you felt "sorry" because my soul was "lost," but it is just fine to insult me because I'm a non-believer.

I hate bigotry. I hate intolerance. I hate rudeness. I encounter all of these things whenever I publicly state my lack of religious belief.

However, I will not "keep my opinions to myself." If someone posts something I disagree with, I will say so. If you can't handle that, then I don't know what to tell you.

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: cjack ]</small>

i do not believe that i disrespected you or insulted you in any way... if i did i apologize... i do not want to argue this point with you because it is making me angry and that is lack of godliness on my part... which was what i tried to explain to you in my fist answer...

you obviously do have issues towards people of faith that you are unwilling to address, because you yourself mentioned that you receive little or no respect from those the believe they are "self-righteous"...

i am not self righteous... i fall short in many ways, on a daily basis. and it is not my place to judge you...

an opinion, regardless of what it relats to, is a rationalization of one's beliefs... so that is exactly what you are doing...

disagreeing with me is not the issue... i also said that you had a right to your opinion... i see that you start things then claim that you aren't doing what you are doing or not feeling what you are feeling... but the truth is you would not have taken this to this point if it did not cause you to feel and think everthing i said above...

i will honestly tell you... that i don't care about your opinion... this post was not addressed to you.. yet you arrogantly felt you needed to put me and the author in check...

take God out of it... you are an arrogant person that i do not care to have this discussion with... i answered you in peace initially, but the peace is gone... as i said, i too fall short and i do not appreciate anybody trying to force there issues into my head... keep it to yourself of tell it to someone that wants to hear it...

you are absolutely right, i know nothing about you... i don't know why y u are here in this sight. i don't know why you hate God... and i dont know what your personal issues are... but if i allowed myself to be vocal about my opinion, it would surely hurt your feeling...

i am nvery able to argue these points with you, but choose not to... intelligent debates are healthy. but i disagree with you that this is a healthy debate. all i could do at this point is confirm your beliefs that all christians/beleiver are arrogant, judgemental people.

you believe what you believe... that's your choice... you are also free to have your opinions and vocalize them. where i went wrong was to even respond... but i can't take anybody saying anything against my Father in Heaven... and to spite what you think... all of your disagreements are agajnst God...

Why are you taking this so personally?

I do have issues with people who have a condescending attitude towards me because of my beliefs. You showed that attitude when you said you "felt sorry" for me.

How DARE you.

You showed disrespect when you ASSUMED what I believed and then said (your words) "you are sooooo wrong!"

Now you're into out and out name-calling. You're also continuing to put words in my mouth.

I do NOT think that all Christians are arrrogant or judgemental.

I do not "hate" God. In fact, I haven't said ANTHING bad about God. I don't know where you're getting that from.

Why am I on MB? I found this place almost 3 years ago when my wife was screwing another guy. I got plenty of non-judgemental support from people of all faiths and people of none. I tried to save my marriage using MB principles, but it didn't work out.

Now I'm here lurking in case I can help other people through a difficult time in their lives. When I can, I try to offer support and advice.

you said you were agnostic... translation - hater of God...
i'm glad that you have been comforted and able to comfort... stick to that... i didn't ask you why you were here... i didn't put words in your mouth either...
i did not make any judgements in according to your belief... you wrote that you were an agnostic... i did not assume that... those were your words...

as far as my belief and faith goes, i believe that you are wrong... that's my opinion...
i have not judged you because of your belief... i have judged you because you have continued, in spite of my telling you not to, trying to force your opinion on me... i have not tried to force anything on you... i have not condemed you or said anthing against you other than you are arrogant... and i believe that i am not the first person to say that to you...

as far a lurking around looking for someone to help... where did you get the idea that i was needing your opinion/help regarding this particualr post...

again i will say this... i have no room to pass judgement on any body... as a Christian, i fall short daily... in fact this very thread is an extremem example of my shortcomings... i love Jesus, but i'm not Him... you have drawn a conclusion of me based on your prior experience... you don't know me and i don't know you...

finally, i told you why i have taken this personally... it's just like someone saying something about your natural father... you don't like it... it's upsetting... i see also that you love to argue, but you don't like to hear!!! it's yous soul purpose to get me to feel this way... and you know it... so you have accomplished what you set out to do... you've proven that i am not perfect... just forgiven...

People like you are one of the reasons I usually keep my beliefs to myself.

Agnosticism has a long and rich philosophical history. I am part of a proud tradition of rationalists and free thinkers that goes back for centuries.

Your simplistic and spiteful definition of my religious views is insulting.

You ASSUMED that agnostic means "hater of God" and went off from there. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to what agnosticism is and isn't before you presume to tell me what I believe.

Or maybe you could just ask?

As to why I am here, you asked "i don't know why y u are here in this sight."

I thought you meant why I was here at MB.

You also keep repeating that you haven't "judged" me or "condemned" me, yet you have now called me "arrogant" several times.

Isn't calling someone "arrogant" judgemental?

Isn't calling someone "arrogant" an insult?

Aslo, I am not trying to "force" my opinion on you, anymore than you are trying to force your opinion on me with the original post.

I was up front about the fact that I don't believe in Satan, and commented about the article from that perspective. If you take that as an attack on God, I must admit to being bewildered by your thought processes.

dear cjack... i truely do owe you an apology... i did insult you and i did judge you... i am sorry...

i got very offended because i wanted to yell at you because of your responses... wrong attitude... yes... very much so...

again i fall short often... i took my issues out on you and for that i must apologize... hey i have issues man!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

but really i am sorry!!! will you please accept my apology... i understand if you don't want to... after all i did kick you...

i am TRUELY SORRY!!!
peace and love...
kim...

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: idostylin ]</small>

No problem.

Apology accepted.

Please don't beat yourself up too much, though.

thank you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
i responded to your original post on the thread directly addressed to you from bill... i think i only responded to the points and kept the bashing out... at least it was my very best attempt...

peace and love...
kim...

Thanks. If its okay, I'd like to keep that thread on Bill's topic, and reply to a few of your points here.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be at home with her children.

In that we are in total agreement. My mother gave up her career to raise us kids, and I have the utmost respect for her in that regard. That said, I understand that things have changed since then, and some mothers have no choice but to work.



i believe this refers to over induldging one's spirit with things that are not of God.it's not to promote ingnorance, it's just to say don't allow yourself to be too consumed with things that do not feed one's spirit...

Just a question...an I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but in your opinion, how can anything NOT be "of God?" IIRC, God created everything, so how does that work in your eyes?

Jesus was around long before the easter bunny and santa clause... the world took on and adapted these pagen symbols and identified them with the above mentioned.

Actually, its not quite like that. We celebrate Christmas and Easter around December 25th and the last week in April because those dates corresponded to earlier pagan rites. The Roman Emperors who were trying to promote Christianity set the new Christian holidays around the time of other celebrations in order to make it easier for their people to adapt. Christmas and Easter are ancient holidays with new names and meanings.

the world used these pagen symbols to minimize and/or try to create a distraction/barrier of what these days are really a clebration of.

I disagree that the pagan symbols "minimize" the celebration or distract from the true meaning. If anything, the Christmas tree, presents, and celebration offer a gateway to the teachings of Christianity. No matter what your faith, on Christmas you get the day off work or school, you get presents, and you get to spend time with your family...all because some people want to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

For me, Christmas is a time to renew my bond with my family and home...to spend time with relatives and old friends, and to celebrate my family.

"...but i do know that Christians are the most disrespected and discrimitated group among humanity...

Maybe prior to 400 A.D., but I don't think you could make that argument today, and certainly not in America.

Maybe you didn't notice, but Christians are in control of nearly every aspect of American life...from the highest levels of government right down to the phrase "In God We Trust" on our money.

Its a false persecution complex, IMHO...like white people thinking that civil rights legislation infringes on the rights of caucasians.

oh gosh... i just went there and made some corrections and additions to my original answers... i wasn't meaning to intrude but i thought i owed it to bill as well as to you to be civilized and have a decent conversation... that said... i'll be happy to keep it over
here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Originally posted by cjack:
Thanks. If its okay, I'd like to keep that thread on Bill's topic, and reply to a few of your points here.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be at home with her children.

In that we are in total agreement. My mother gave up her career to raise us kids, and I have the utmost respect for her in that regard. That said, I understand that things have changed since then, and some mothers have no choice but to work.

i believe this refers to over induldging one's spirit with things that are not of God.it's not to promote ingnorance, it's just to say don't allow yourself to be too consumed with things that do not feed one's spirit...

Just a question...an I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but in your opinion, how can anything NOT be "of God?" IIRC, God created everything, so how does that work in your eyes?

okay... yes God did create everthing... but man has taken some things that God intended for good and turned it into bad/evil... for example God created music for his praises, but not all music praises God...

Jesus was around long before the easter bunny and santa clause... the world took on and adapted these pagen symbols and identified them with the above mentioned.

Actually, its not quite like that. We celebrate Christmas and Easter around December 25th and the last week in April because those dates corresponded to earlier pagan rites. The Roman Emperors who were trying to promote Christianity set the new Christian holidays around the time of other celebrations in order to make it easier for their people to adapt. Christmas and Easter are ancient holidays with new names and meanings.

that may be true... i cannot argue that point because i flunked history. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but there is nothing under the sun older than God... and i was refering to the easter bunny and santa clause and pagen symbols used in association with these and other holidays... this is one of the answers i changed a little...

the world used these pagen symbols to minimize and/or try to create a distraction/barrier of what these days are really a clebration of.

I disagree that the pagan symbols "minimize" the celebration or distract from the true meaning. If anything, the Christmas tree, presents, and celebration offer a gateway to the teachings of Christianity. No matter what your faith, on Christmas you get the day off work or school, you get presents, and you get to spend time with your family...all because some people want to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

this is true... there are many benefits that paganism allowed... i don't disagree... but there are many, many people that haveno idea what the meaning of Christmas is... in fact, who do you think changed the name to X-mas??? do you see how that x's out The Christ...

For me, Christmas is a time to renew my bond with my family and home...to spend time with relatives and old friends, and to celebrate my family.

that's a good thing... i thank God that you have family to do that with... i do not... and that makes me very sad during the holidays...but i still believe that it's Jesus that is the reason for the season. and even though the 25th isn't the actual date of His birth, it's still in acknowledement of such...

"...but i do know that Christians are the most disrespected and discrimitated group among humanity...

Maybe prior to 400 A.D., but I don't think you could make that argument today, and certainly not in America.

Maybe you didn't notice, but Christians are in control of nearly every aspect of American life...from the highest levels of government right down to the phrase "In God We Trust" on our money.

i respectfully disagree with this one... people are hated and dispised today for being a believer of God... the wall in the courts and the dollar bill may say in God we trust, but we can be sued if we try to pray in at school or some public place that might offend the agnostic or athiest... Christianity is the only entity that does not have backing by the freedome of speech laws... the Boy Scouts, a christian association, was sued because an atheiest father didn't want his son to say a part of the oathe that acknowledges God... same with the YMCA...the seperation of God and government is real... you cannot speak of god in a recovery home that gets funding from the government... it's illegal...

Its a false persecution complex, IMHO...like white people thinking that civil rights legislation infringes on the rights of caucasians.

again, i respectfully disagree... Christians may have a large presence, but not control, respect or lack of persecution...

oh, by the way... what does IIRC and IMHO mean??? i'm not to up on all the lingo...


thanks for the second chance... peace and love...kim...

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: idostylin ]</small>