As a faithful wife who has been physically, emotionally, mentally and verbally abused by a mentally ill, sexaholic unfaithful husband, who cheated on my 13 times and is now dragging out the divorce AND not paying any kind of child support or alimony or in any way, shape or form helping with HIS children or HIS home or HIS bills, I am not only highly insulted by the "Checklist (for Men)" thread, I am infuriated.

I have a newsflash, I am not the only faithful spouse on this list, and for a member of Marriage BUILDERS to ENCOURAGE men to act this way toward their wives is just unbelievable!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> GETTING DIVORCED CHECKLIST

Preface: At this point I really have to recommend seeing and working with a good marriage or couples counselor before proceeding down this financially and emotionally expensive road. I'm preparing you for the worst case scenario with my best personal advice, you may have a sane ex-wife and not need to use all of it. With that said here we go:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words, do NOT bother to go to the marriage counselor to actually work on RECONCILING the marriage--just go as a cover while you accomplish the following underhanded tasks. This is bull!! Apparently I was stupid enough to go to the marriage counselor and actually WORK on my marriage and want it to be better!! What a naive fool, I guess, because meanwhile my stbxH was following THIS advice!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>EVERTHING BELOW IS VITALLY IMPORTANT!

1. Be pleasant, agreeable, careful, and secretive until you complete items #1,#2, #3, #4, #5 (see related story).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah. This would explain why my WH would rage at me until 3am in the morning, blame me for his affairs, and keep telling me that *I* was the crazy one while he went from one affair to the next! This is what being secretive gets you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. Pay off all outstanding debts, credit cards, loans, second mortgages and anything else in YOUR NAME or JOINT ACCOUNTS you might have while you are STILL married and going to marriage or couples counseling. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU WILL DO! (Be sure not to pay bills exclusively in her name with your money) (see related story).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the fact that the two people in the marriage were working together for a common goal for the entire marriage is worthless, huh? Or the fact that I put him through college so WE could buy the big fancy house--or the fact that he insisted on putting all the utilities in HIS name because he didn't like the way I hooked up phone, electricity etc. when we moved. Once again, this is just more bigoted, hateful talk!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. If you make more than your ex-wife or your ex-wife doesn't work, you may be required to pay PERMANENT ALIMONY of 15-60% of your gross salary for the rest of your life - even if you get remarried and have new kids (no kidding check the law). In Maryland, and many other states Courts often award PERMANENT ALIMONY to the ex-wife to maintain her "standard of living" under some unwritten law to preserve the ex-wife's environment with the children - they don't care about the men's environment at all (no kidding check the law). So if you're working two jobs and taking loans to pay for your current "standard of living", then immediately move to smaller house (preferably rent), and DOWNSIZE your income SUBSTAINTIALLY and quickly at least 6 months before you wife files for divorce, so the judge has no strong basis for setting a high "standard of living" for your ex and to minimize your IMPUTED INCOME. If your ex-wife doesn't work at all then you are automatically eligible for Permanent Alimony, so it would be wise to immediately leave your current job to see more of the kids and change your career to something without ANY gross income like starting to write a book or something. (see related story)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh right! How foolish of me! The fact that we had an AGREEMENT that when we had children I would stay home with them and he would work makes ME the evil SAHM. This is just hate through and through and I am appalled that a member of MB would promote it! In my marriage, I did stay home with the kids and gave up my career because our children meant more to us that money. Thus, my lying-cheating WH's career was advanced and promoted, while my career became stagnant. Yet, I should be made to live at minimum wage--usually supporting all the children by myself I might add--because I chose to put my KIDS before my JOB??? Isn't there some part even of a man's head, that recognizes that by staying home, I promoted the FAMILY and that includes the MAN??? And yes, I am DUE alimony--it is my right and privilege--not because of some unjust, unfair "legality" but because I contributed to the overall advancement of the family by caring for the kids, by being in charge of the household chores, by supporting my H's work at home at night, by working myself part time when the kids were in school... Thus, no offense, but if I was faithful and a contributing member of the marriage contract, why should my standard of living PLUMMET because my WH chose to stick it to some other woman and break the contract. I have the Right to not live at poverty level because he was promoted because of my contributions!!! HELLOO!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. Any property of yours that has irreplaceable sentimental value, send it immediately to a family member (preferably out of state for legal reasons). This includes expensive TVs, collectibles, heirlooms, china, watches, or whatever things would be hard or impossible to get again. This is so you wont loose all this stuff in the property settlement to come. Also give family members "loans" of large amounts of your money, so that you have enough to pay for your legal defense over the year ahead. Otherwise, any money left lying around under your name will be juicily carved up at Property Settlement. Also, this is a good time to secretly get your best clothes out of the house (see #7). Tell her you're taking them to good will if she asks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BALONEY!! Are men being encouraged here to LIE directly so they can hide assets and rip off their own families and children!! This is an outrage!!! Did it ever occur to the men that they can afford the "big expensive TV" because their wife contributed?? No--according to this checklist, if you want it and it's expensive or valuable, hide it and lie so the evil wife can't get it.

Don't forget to empty out all the joint accounts so that wife and children are left penniless with no way to survive!! Oh, and by the way, you know how she contributed to the joint account too? Well, we wouldn't want that equally divided or anything. She should get all the leftover cr@p and you should get all the cool, expensive TVs!

This is just too much!! My unfaithful H moved out and the next day, took all the money out of both of our checking accounts, stopped paying the mortgage which is in HIS name and is titled in HIS name, abandoned all the bills that are in HIS name and set up extravagantly, hasn't paid a penny of child support in six months and keeps delaying the hearing so he won't have to (not to mention not giving a [censored] if we live or die)--AND THIS IS THE BEHAVIOR BEING ADVOCATED???!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>5. Don't get involved with another woman anywhere that a Private Investigator (PI) might be able to follow you - no kidding, this happens 60% of the time! Or the Judge will slam you, even if your wife was originally cheating on you. Unless either of you can prove it in court with photos or a PI on the stand, the Judge won't care, but be warned that you can and will often be sworn in under oath "under penalties of perjury" to testify on the stand that you have not "been with another woman" before the divorce was finalized. (this sucks for men because this process can take a full year or more, and going without sex with a woman for a year is unbearable for most healthy males). You can get really screwed if a PI even sees a woman spend an overnight with you or you with her. Even just the "opportunity to have sex" is considered by almost all judges to be "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". Be secretive and careful, and remember the famous lawyer and President "Bill Clinton" tap dancing around what "he mentally defined sex as". Maybe you want to mentally redefine it as "sex with a woman that is wearing a purple necklace and green earrings, all other colors are don't really count as sex", just so you can pull a Bill Clinton maneuver too. In Maryland, oral sex is not legally defined as "Sex or adultery", but some vindictive judge can still screw you over it even if they're not supposed to. I am not telling you to lie on the stand, but the law is VERY VERY gray don't give it any more help than it needs. Don't lie, but volunteer no information! You can always exercise your Fifth Amendment rights not to self incriminate yourself on the witness stand. (more about this in another story) I still don't recommend spending a lot of time meeting woman, instead it is better to use this time for self improvement and self discovery, (more about this in another story)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right...but if you can get involved with a woman secretly and in the dark where no one can see you and at her place--making sure the place is not buggedd--why then BY ALL MEANS. After all, any healthy male NEEDS to screw and couldn't possibly be expected to be faithful and committed to keeping his family together or providing for his children (who depend on him) or his wife (who supported him, encouraged him, and contributed to the improvement of his life and career).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>6. Be Aware that the parent not living with the children at least 50% of the time, must pay the other parent Pendente Lite Child Support. This usually comes out to about 40%-60% of the man's GROSS INCOME before federal and state taxes, bills, mortgage, and everything. (see why #2 is so damn important!). If any bills remain (see #2) are in YOUR NAME, you HAVE to pay 100% of the bill, even if you don't live where the mortgage is being paid, or where the items are being used. With a $6000 monthly income, you'll be lucky to have $900 left over to pay for your rent, food, car payment, gas, electric, socializing, clothes,etc.). This usually leaves you in the negative or penniless. This makes (#5) not dating much easier. (this law needs a MAJOR overhaul as well)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Darn right this law needs a major overhaul!!! If the cheating H buys a house without his wife's permisssion, gets it in HIS name and gets a mortgage in HIS name, and INFORMS her that he has sold their family home and she is now moving into another home--and if the WH puts all the utilities in HIS name because he is a controlling abuser--and then he decides his "on-the-side" honey is sweeter and dumps his wife and kids by the side of the road...WHY OH WHY SHOULD HE BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING HIS OWN MORTGAGE?? OR HIS OWN BILLS??? After all, he's not living there...or using the electricity. No, he only left his wife without a job and with three kids and no way to feed them or provide for their basic human needs so he could go off and be a healthy male! It's not as if he signed any legally binding contracts--except, oops...the mortgage which HE arranged when HE bought the house in HIS name. And it's not as if he had some kind of agreement or understanding with his wife that if she stayed home and took care of their children, he would be the provider--and now he's just abandoning that responsibility.

This law needs major overhauling in my opinion to specifically spell out in CLEAR CUT LANGUAGE that if one spouse breaks the marriage contract by cheating on the other, they pay the other spouse entirely PERIOD. Healthy male bull or not. I held up my end of the bargain, and my WH walked away scott free!!!! He stopped paying his mortgage and no one said boo. He stopped paying all his bill and no one said boo. He has not contributed one dime to the wellfare of his own children and no on said boo. And it will be postponed and postponed until finally there is an order (oh swift justice), which he will then duck and avoid and try to pay half or part...

If your name is on the darn mortgage and your name is on the darn title, then you are responsible to pay the darn bill--it's just that simple!!! If your name is on the bills at home, then you are responsible to pay the darn bill. If you made babies with a woman and pretended to be a family, then you are responsible to pay for the wellfare of those children for the rest of their lives--but only until they're 18 at home!! If you break the marriage contract, then in my mind, you pay the spouse who DIDN'T break the contract and who held up their end of the bargain--it's just that simple!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>7. Beware the ex-parte (aka Restraining Order). This has to be one of the most diabolical and abused legal weapons against men by women getting divorced and this law needs a major overhaul! (see related story). A woman can simply call the cops and say that you've "threatened her" and you will be greeted at the door of your own house (that you've paid $80,000.00 on so far) by several police officers with bad attitudes even if none of the story is true. Most police officers automatically assume you are dangerous and will treat you in the harshest manner possible. Never, ever, loose your temper, scream, yell, push past an officer or resist them, touch them, or threaten them, even if they're doing your ex-wife's dirty work and it's a total lie! If your ex's gets an ex-parte Order, you will be locked out of your house with only the clothes on your back and not be allowed back inside! (no joke check the law). You will have to wait weeks to appeal a restraining order and will be homeless and not be allowed to see your own children until then.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I will admit that there are some women who use RO's as a way to basically get custody and get the house. I know that does happen. But what about the woman like me?? The one who has been screamed at until 3am, but never hit? The one who had the door pulled off the hinges in RAGE, and who cowered in terror while her property was destroyed--but has no bruise? The wife who was locked out of the house at night in the rain "to teach her a lesson"? The wife who is loudly and vigorously threatened and blocked and accused and called HORRIBLE names, but has not scar to prove it? The one who wakes up at 5am to find her ex standing at the foot of her bed--even though the house was locked up at night? The wife who's husband enters her house when he knows she is away, only to surprise one of the kids who decided not to go? Who goes through the house, takes things, hunts through computers, damages walls--"but never hit her"?

Now, when I go to the judge and tell him that my ex called me at 5am, 5:15am, 5:30am, 6am, etc. etc. telling me he was going to take the kids and disappear...or come over and kill us all...or he was going to get me for divorcing him--guess what?? All I'm doing is going before a judge and telling him that my WH threatened me. And now, because of sites like this, the judges and courts are jaded, and I have to prove AGAIN that I'm not just imagining it, or blowing it out of proportion, or using it as a divorce weapon--I AM LITERALLY AND REASONABLY IN FEAR FOR MY SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF MY CHILDREN AND PETS, AND I CAN NOT "PROVE" IT BECAUSE I HAVE NO DARN BRUISES!!! My WH has beat me and beat me and beat me down emotionally in ways that are horrendous if I ever wrote about them , but I have no scar and I can never show evidence that it's "REAL"!!!!! I am defenseless and at his mercy. He can come into my home any time he wants--because remember, it is in HIS name--he's just not responsible to pay the bill. And he can say anything he wants, as long as he doesn't HIT me, right?? Why should I be afraid just because he threatens to take my children when I'm not watching them? Why should I fear for my safety just because I wake up to find him in my room looking down on me in hatred??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>8. Wear a concealed micro tape recorder so you have "PROOF" that you did not threaten your ex-wife. The cops will still take you out of your own home you own, but when you meet the judge at the Ex-Parte Trial a week later, you will have recorded "PROOF" that she lied. Otherwise, the Ex-Parte judges believe the woman side in domestic violence cases 99.99% of the time and can extend the Restraining Order for up to a YEAR. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I agree with. Carry a micro tape and listen to it--maybe you'll hear why your spouse FEARS you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>9. Totally unlike women (see #7), a Man has to have severe injury involving blood (i.e. stab wounds, loss of eye, broken nose, bleeding patch of hair, broken bloodied teeth, broken bones,etc.) in order to successfully win an Ex-Parte Order against his ex wife. Judges are so damn unfair to men in domestic violence courts as compared to women - even in light of a divorce when it should be apparent that its's being used as a "tool" to get "daddy" out of the house. Many groups count these types of abuses in their statistics against battered women, etc, which is unfair. It is imperative to note, that even if no threat or abuse ever really happened, if the judge rules that there was a threat - the threat becomes a FINDING OF FACT BY THE COURT OF LAW (check the law). Your only recourse is to pay for a lengthy appeal process that will take months and thousands of dollars while you are still "Dead-Bolted" out by the kids "mom". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SEE?? Unless there is a scar, wound or bruise there was no abuse. Why should domestic violence count burning books, destroying property, kicking pets, throwing them up against the wall, and ripping doors off the hinges as "domestic violence"--the women weren't battered, just their possessions were. Or, could it be that the abusive, controlling spouse is smart enough to realize that if they actually HIT the other, they will go to jail, so they stop JUST SHORT of anything physical on that person's body and just attack their soul, mind, and emotions--with just enough threats of violence and just enough harm to pets and property to make sure to communicate "Any time I WANT to hurt you or the kids, I can, so you better do what I say."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>10. Realize that Family Law is totally unfair to men, and that decades of men sitting idly by while radical groups peel-away men's rights under the guise of woman's rights and sexual equality, and has cost men the basic human right to even see their own children or live in their own homes during divorce (if the woman is so inclined). Actually, statistics show that women DO get very mean spirited and vindictive during divorce and the current Family Law system becomes her weapon of revenge. (see related story)</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">REALIZE THIS--for years women cooked, cleaned, managed the household, and raised the children only to be dumped by their ungrateful, philandering husbands with NO legal recourse whatsoever--women and children abandoned while their husbands lived the life of Reilly with their new squeeze and gave little or nothing to their own children or the wife of their youth. Well, now, FINALLY, women have organized enough to say NO MORE!! and this site have the AUDACITY to say "no fair"??? You're kidding me!! Is it fair for a man to be abusive to his own family for decades? to have 13 affairs and blame his wife? to rage and threaten? And here's a newsflash...statistics show that just as many MEN get mean and vindictive during divorce because they wipe out checking accounts, steal the expensive TV, abandon their families and responsibilities, and then say, "Why are you being such a b!tch? You aren't letting me have everything AND get away with it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>11. Keep a detailed journal and document everything, including general things about where you were during the day. Be sure to include time stamped receipts with your signature to prove your whereabouts, or the names and numbers of witnesses. Anything less, does not prove "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" that you were actually somewhere else. This keeps your Family Law case out of another Criminal Law case for violating a Restraining Order (see #7). (Gosh, I can't tell you how much this happens to decent guys!). This doubles your legal expenses and stress levels, and gives your ex and her attorney more ammunition to zap you with at property settlement and the final divorce order.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep another detailed journal itemizing every hour you spend with your children...every dollar you spend on your children...every way in which you make their life easier and more stable...every time you go to their school or their games or performances...every time you take time off of work to take them to the doctor...every time you stay up late to make them lunches...every time you pass on a haircut or a PC gadget so your child can get a CD they want...every time your disney spouse comes in and buys them just what you can't afford...every time you stay up all night trying to figure out if you will buy groceries or pay the electric bill...every time you've put your kids' lives ahead of a business meeting or a round of golf or beers with the buddies...every time you stayed up all night with your little girl while she threw up--then cleaned it up--and then tried to go to work the next day. Yeah. Keep THAT journal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>12. Seek out a good men's support group, counselor, family, and friends to for emotional support. If you we're secretive about #5, you will be better off and have a companion to help make some good times through the bad times. Don't got for the wimpy men's groups that just wallow in self pity and tears, try to find one with "courage, brains, legal and political know how like GuysGoingOut.com's Divorce support groups for men.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words, if you have OW on the side, hidden away in a dark, secret hole somewhere, at least you'll have someone supporting you as you abandon your family and responsibilities so you won't feel like such a loser. I believe her name is Miss Family Values.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>13. Find a Lawyer because your ex-wife probably already has a lawyer and neglected to tell you. Her lawyer is probably advising her to provoke you and instigate a fight with you (see #8) so you'll loose your temper and yell at her so she can file an Ex-Parte against you - you must NEVER raise your voice or THREATEN TO HARM your ex-wife. You need a lawyer with at least 5 years of winning experienced representing men in Family Law. You do not want a lawyer that does Criminal Law, and Family Law only part time for fun and extra money, as they will make many blunders and cost extra time at about $150-$300 per HOUR. (see: How To Find the Right Divorce Lawyer for Men) Law firms have the advantage where many attorneys can work your case during "busy periods" and pool their resources giving you an edge; however this can comes at a much higher cost than a single attorney.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Get a lawyer to really stir things up, drag this out, and make everyone pay. Don't even CONSIDER trying to be reasonable and working it out like two adults. Go for the jugular and take away EVERYTHING, including all possiblities of dignity and pride. Crush-kill-destroy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>14. 80% of all marriages are ended by the women (facts many groups hide vigorously), so usually its just a matter of time before you get served Divorce Papers. Brace yourself, you're in for one hell of a bad year to come! You just have to hang in there and not despair when you are forced to pay the mortgage for a house you cant live in while your ex wife's and her new boyfriend can. Or the despair when you feel when your Child Support money goes for vacations, new cars, gifts, and good times with boyfriends while the kids have ill-fitting clothes with holes in them (See: The Truth About Divorce They Don't Want Anybody to Know ). But there is light, a better love life, freedom and a new life to start a new meaningful relationship at the end of the tunnel, as long as you haven't been too abused by your ex-wife and the Family Courts. Don't file first if at all possible so you can fully achieve checklists #1-#5, then you can file.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to be sick. I don't want my WH to pay the mortgage so my BF can live here! I DON'T HAVE A BOYFRIEND. Just because he is keeping a secret companion doesn't mean I am!!!! I want him to pay the mortgage and pay child support so the kids and I don't end up homeless...so they aren't forced to lose their family, their father, their home, their room and their neighborhood friends all at the same time. I want him to pay so I don't have to buy groceries but let my phone be disconnected!!

And my guess would be that 80% of divorces are filed by women who have been emotionally and physically abandoned; who are so sick of being ignored, neglected and disrespected that they filed; who finally have the courage to say "no more mistresses"; and who for once and for all are not going to be intimidated, threatened, controlled or abused anymore!!!

The article that was espoused on the "Divorce Checklist (for men)" is nothing short of bigoted hatred, and as a woman and as an abused spouse I am highly insulted. These kinds of Nazi divorce tactics do nothing more than promote lies and make it worse, and I am ashamed that some are going to think this is "good advice!" For Shame!! I will not be party to this propoganda, and I will not let it be promoted without at least bringing the truth to light!!! I will not stand idly by!!!!

For abused women everywhere, I sign myself,

FAITHFULWIFE!!!!!

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

BRAVO!! I could not have done this good a job with the rebuttal.

I agree with you on all points.

Thank you for giving me voice.

God bless you and KEEP ON KEEPING ON!

ANOTHER
"FAITHFUL WIFE"

Faithfulwife, well done. From another woman who is with First step (battered wives). I could of not done such a good job as you. Thank you.

42 times in court and still counting.....

Need I say more? I think maybe my ex wrote that because it fits him 100%.

BRAVO FAITHFUL WIFE FOR SPEAKING UP! I too read that post and sadly passed it by not wanting to read any further. I've lived through all that crud.

Well written CJ and I see all your points. BUT I must say that not all women are you or like you. Quite frankly, I wish that I would of seen a article like this before my divorce from my cheating wife. You can relate many things in this article to your personal story, so can I from the opposite gender.

I think you know enough about me so that I don't need to go into details but if you want to have an all day slug fest, I ain't got anything better to do today. Bottom line to me is that situations are different and though your situation makes this look like "bigoted hatred", my situation makes our court system look like "bigoted hatred" towards men and the article look like a times best-seller. Maybe that's why the original post started that it was for men with Wayword Wives.

Your a good woman CJ and that's why this article doesn't apply to you but again I say that you don't represent what a lot of women out there are doing.

For men abused by the court system and their cheating wives everywhere, I sign myself.

LostHusband!!!!!

CJ,

You go girl! I saw that thread and checked out the site. It was apparent that he wasn't going to make a whole lot of friends with that one.

The utter madness of that site is delightful. The author lists a whole bunch of ideas that should have been weighed before he ever went out on his first coke date.

It's people like that who give selfishness and self centeredness a bad name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Statistical Fact: Women file for DV 80% of the time.

Observation: Women cheat JUST AS MUCH as men.

Statistical Fact: Men are portrayed by media in general, by dv lawyers specifically as the cheating idiots that ruin marriages, by the women they divorce as philandering abusers, and regardless of whether they are good men/husbands/fathers... are more often than not labeled by their communites as 'at blame'.

_______________________________________

I'm sorry you were offended by that thread. Your dv sounds terrible. But, to be honest, all divorces are terrible. In the end, you play by the rules of your state... and just like anything else in life, you need play by those rules smartly. As terrible as some of your stories are, there are (believe it or not) many men who have had just as traumatic divorces as you... except we fight an uphill battle against well-rooted feminist biases.

Case in point, the police did not question my wife at all when she told them, while I was having a seizure, that I had overdosed on drugs trying to kill myself, and had threatened her during a drug-induced rage. It wasn't until AFTER the tests came back negative for OD and drugs that they even questioned what I had been trying to tell them... that I am epileptic and that my neurologist came to the hospital and verified my epilepsy. Even then, I still got to sit under police guard in a hospital bed for 16 hours while my parents flew to Maryland from Arizona to take me in under their care.

I empathize with you... but maybe if you played your divorce "smarter", researched the laws of your state, and accepted the reality of your spouse's intentions about divorce... you might have had a better time with things.

I fully expect to be roasted alive for this next remark... Take control of your divorce. Too many times, too many people seem to be complacent to REACT to what the other spouse is doing in the divorce. When you REACT, you allow yourself to be victimized. Who cares if you're the victim? Take charge of the process, learn about it, do what you can to protect yourself (your spouse sure as hell isn't!), and even if it's the most miserable thing you've ever had to do, hold your head high and drive the MORAL HIGH GROUND... if that's what you want.

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Lyxa ]</small>

I understand how upsetting it is to read stuff like this from the "other side". I felt the same way reading some Web sites and books, and at some lawyer seminars, giving advice to women. When I read this checklist, it made me feel a bit uneasy at the tone and some of the advice. But there is a kernel of truth in there, on things a man must be aware of and protect against.

I would not want to use any of those attacks from the checklist, but I needed some advice on protecting myself. My wife had seen lawyers first. The first book I read, very upsetting but very helpful, is "Divorce War! 50 Strategies Every Woman Needs to Know to Win", by Pistotnik. People have misconceptions about how this actually works, and so did I. The faithful spouse has to catch up and wise up very quickly.

Fortunately my wife has not played any RO games. That's probably the most frightening thing to a man. But she has done a couple other things from that checklist.

So after this long preamble, do you think that it would be helpful (overall) to a faithful wife reading this checklist near the beginning of the process?

I was going to add that in the checklist, he uses 60% of the gross for an example alimony/child support. This is obviously overstated and inflammatory. That's one of the things that bugs me the most about it, as an engineer, I hate it when people fudge the numbers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Folks,

Bear in mind that I am not saying that there aren't women who pull these horrid tactics--neither am I saying that my life and my situation is typical or normal. I am not trying to claim that "all" divorces go like mine or that all men behave like mine did or behave like those lousy cheating women either.

What I AM saying is that to promote a site like that on Marriage Builders is just attrocious, not to mention that it certainly does not apply to every or even most situations. Yes, there are the horror stories like mine, Peachy's and Faith4me's. We have clearly been involved with an abuser and probably an addict of some kind...atypical. But for that kind of site to be held out as "Good Advice" on a Marriage Builder site is just mindbending!

Finally, LostHusband, I won't slug it out with you. Your IG is as much of an exception as my stbx is. I throw down my gloves, because I won't slug a good old friend like you!

CJ

This cat sounds like he's been thru Divorce Hell fer sure! Hence the extremely PESSISSMISTIC outlook on things. I say that surely, not everyone is that vindictive. There are a lot of spouses out there who are NOT that way and who have a very amicable relationship with their ex.
Thank you, FW for daring to speak up!
Harold

FaithfulWife and like minded folks:

For your information, my ex-WW not only cheated on me multiple times but physically attacked me many times, and you know what happened when I called the police to have her arrested for domestic violence? Absolutely nothing. You know what the police officers told me? that unlike a woman who can have her H arrested just on her word that he became violent abusive (even though he never touched her), the same does not apply in the reverse situation. In other words, my word as a man is worthless but hers as a woman was not. The only way me and my daughters were able to survive was to arm myself with information like the one I posted because otherwise my ex-WW (who was a violent mental basket case) would have gotten custody of our two abused and neglected daughters (she took her lovers home while I was at work and many times left our daughters alone). I had to document every incident afterwards and was able to get a social services worker to witness the neglect my ex-WW inflicted on our daughters. I had written testimony from a neighbor that she saw my ex-WW throw a rock and breaking the living room window of my apartment (the one me and my daughters moved into after I left her). I had to get a tape recorder to document all the life threatening messages she and her then lover made to me. I had tp get a restraining order against her but it was a joke because despite numerous violations, the police never arrested her. Thankfully, the judge saw all the documented evidence and granted me custody of our daughters. I thank God everyday for having that information not only to defend myself but because it allowed me to protect my daughters from a monster, who because of her gender, had the law naturally leaning on her side. Unfortunately, other equally good men and fathers will not be so lucky in their encounters with the court, and it is for this reason that they need this information.

What hypocrisy on the part of you folks! These tactics are very similar to the same ones that bad, unfaithful wives have used in the past to get the law on their side and to screw their good, faithful husbands. If the title of the thread was Divorce Checklist (for women) and had been posted by a female MB member, would you have raised your voices with such equal uproar? Chances are you would have contributed your own tactics.

What are you all afraid of? That the law will become more fair and balanced?

Ask yourself, in a divorce case, who would you rather be, the man or the woman? (I would want to be the woman any old day). Maybe that is why more women file for divorce than men.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2002/feature2.htm

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Okieman:
<strong>Ask yourself, in a divorce case, who would you rather be, the man or the woman? (I would want to be the woman any old day). Maybe that is why more women file for divorce than men.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2002/feature2.htm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree.

BTW okieman that's a great article.

Why would any of us want to be in a divorce? Ask that ?. If you were to look back 10 years of your marriage, with what you know now, you would not of followed the path you did take. I for one, found my x-husband, to be untruthful, many times in my marriage. He said, what I wanted to hear, and not what he intended to do. Just like the case with his mother, same thing. I found many things out during the last 10 years, and now I see the warning signs, the signals, and many of us women, would of been so prepared for our husbands who lusted for another woman. In my situation, my husband didn't really care about me, but took me for my money in my settlement. I see the picture, and with the Harleys, they told me not to give him one dime. I did, and now that was the biggest mistake of my life. He wanted to take more and went ballistic when I said no. He took 85%.

But we can't go back, and there are quite a few of us that have been injured by our husbands, physically, and mentally, and verbally. I for one, had to have shoulder surgery, cause my x-husband tore my rotator cuff. Of course he doesn't accept blame for his part. His e-mails to me are all about how bad I was. But I will suffer with this shoulder and back the rest of my life. There are many of us who were cussed at on a regular basic. And many of us who were told that our husbands didn't love us but LOVED the other woman.

As for FAITFULWIFE, she is expressing the gender irrational aspects of divorce. If you want to be fair, put a piece up for Wifes, to protect themselves. But as I see it, this is a marriage building program, not a breaking down program. LIke my x-husband, SNL, wanted to break down all marriages. And as you see, he was banned.

Lets be supportive to each other, and listen to feelings. Fiathfulwife, is expressing her feelings, she is hurt, she is now living a life of not much. Many of us are, and for those of us that were stayathomemoms, life stinks. I gave my life to my husband, and kids. And what do I get in the long run. A ballistic x-husband who says, he is giving me everything, a husband who criticizes me in front of the kids, a husband who says, he gave me this house, a husband who is still controlling.

The rut of this road, is blaming, malipulating, demeaning, coercivenss, and unthoughtfulness. Yes, the wayward spouse is the one who caused the damage. They are the ones who have turned the family upside down. They are the ones who lied, cheated, and affected health. (STD, AIDES) etc. And they didn't care. Now is the time, to let them go. Go on their journey of finding themselves, and we are finding ourselves. Even though it is harder for us, cause we are so limited on finances, while our waywards spouses are living their life without fear, loss of income, and everything else.

Faithful wife, you are a wonderful woman, been treated poorly, your wayward spouse, was deceitful and demeaning and unthoughtful. I was told, and see, as the divorce goes on, it gets uglier and uglier. Yes, it happens, and our wayward spouses will feel no remorse or guilt of their acitons, and lies.

I am now seeking assistance through the government. I have showed my kids, that I can't make it on what I will get. So, the next step is government help. Of course, does my x-husband care. Heck no, he eats, gourmet foods, goes to the gym, now is telling me is is going to go to a swimming club, and etc. He is living his life of freedom, not worrying about how he is going to put food on the table. But I should of seen the signs, and I should of seen the triggers.

Faithfulwife, we will make it, cause we have God in our lives. I am still trying to give it all to God. And I will make it, and I am feeling better and better every week. You will too, and there was a reason, that God put this bad situation in our life. WE will one day find out why, and see where he is placing our lives. I will pray for you and all of us battered, wives.

Bless you all.

Faith4Me this is the Divorcing/Divorced board, and unlike the other boards that are aimed to support those folks that are struggling in their marriages with issues like infidelity, abuse, alcoholism, etc., this one is for those that have already are facing divorce, willingly or unwillingly, or have already been divorced.

Women do not hold a monopoly on going thru marital hell with an unfaithful and abusive spouse. But unfortunately the law is so biased against ALL men, that many times, the only way to deal with a vicious, unfaithful WW, bent on further destroying your life, is to, sadly, 'go for her jugular'. Unfortunately many WW's turn the divorce into an needless, gutwrenching, ugly war, and just like soldiers, we have to defend ourselves and, regretably, shoot to kill when we are viciously attacked.

Has it gotten to the point where we male BS's need to have our own chat room to discuss issues by ourselves for fear of offending the female BS's?

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Speaking as a male BS who was abused by the court system, I found the checklist article to be insulting to me as a man.

It is one thing to do what you have to do to protect yourself. It is quite another to deliberately defraud not just your wife but also your children.

Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but where exactly did the checklist originate? All I see is the rebuttal thread.

ALWAYS HOPEFUL

TOOMuchCoffeeMan posted a link under topic heading "Getting Divorced Checklist(For Men)"

That check list is recipe for a weekend in jail. A good deal of what is recommended there amounts to criminal conduct in many states. Hope you will read it for what it is, I feel sorry for any man who tries to implement most of that stuff. If a judge ever figures out a man is pulling that kind of nonsense, he will pound him into the sidewalk like a rusty nail.

But, it you are looking for a few days of free room and board with medical care, well have at it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Always Hopeful:
<strong>Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but where exactly did the checklist originate? All I see is the rebuttal thread.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I originated the thread 'Getting Divorce Checklist (For Men)'. It should be a few threads down. Read it and you be the judge.

P.S. Never follow ANY advice, including the advice on this list, without first consulting with a divorce attorney as to its legal validity.

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>