I'm getting ready to leave for the day but some of your words on IDOSTYLIN's thread interested me. I would like to ask you some questions and start a discussion, like you I believe that I'm totally capable of doing it without throwing rocks.

I'll be honest and say that I have no idea what your beliefs are but I am curious about the perceived discremination. As a white middle class Christian man, I feel that society discriminates against my "class" more than about any other combination of religion/gender/race.

If your up for it let's discuss, if you want to do it privately then e-mail me, if you want me to take a flying leep then just ignore me.

PS> If anyone can't post with respect THEN DON'T POST - This is meant to be a learning experience, not a flaming contest.

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: LostHusband ]</small>

No problem.

I'm always somewhat reluctant to discuss my beliefs, simply because of the reaction I get from the more over-zealous believers.

I consider myself to be an agnostic. I've never believed in God, but I'm not one of those strict atheists who insists that there IS NO God. It just isn't really an issue for me.

I'll answer any questions to the best of my ability, and I really don't mind discussing religious issues. As a part of the very small minority of non-believers in this country, I feel I have a different perspective than a lot of people.

Please understand, those of you who think this is a good chance to "save" me...I don't want to be "witnessed" at or converted.

Ask away!

boy did i mess this up... i'm not so great at all the posting tricks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: idostylin ]</small>

sorry for the triple post... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: idostylin ]</small>

Originally posted by idostylin:
Bill, your post here made me feel bad... i had to look at myself... i am not good at debating because i do take it personal... i didn't really think i was throwing rocks, but if i was i apologize... i have issues just like everyone else here... but i would like to take this a chance to respond to cjack's initial comments on my thread... i'm not a minister/preacher or a bible scholar, but i am a believer and i would just like to try to do this with my best ability and sincerest effort to handle this
correctly... or more dignified... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Originally posted by cjack:
With all due respect, I have some serious issues with the assertions in the vignette in the original post.

Let me be upfront about my beliefs: I am an agnostic, and as such consider "Satan" to be as real and present as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

That said, onto the specific problems:

"Persuade the wives to go to work for
long hours and the husbands to work 6-7 days each
week, 10-12 hours a day, so they can afford their
empty lifestyles."

For one, this implies that a "woman's place is in the home." I thought we'd gotten past that.

i believe that a woman's place is where she and her spouse agree... i also believe that there is nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be at home with her children. the Word implies that a family is what God loves... and the roles of men and women are clearly stated therein. many (believers)do not use the Word in realtion to their families and marriages and i believe that it has created much confusion in our families and our world. the Word does say that a man should submit to his wife and a wife to her husband...personally i have no problem submitting to a man that is seeking God for direction.

For another, before the rise of modern urban/industrial culture, men (and women) would work from sunrise to sunset. Before the 40-hour week and child labor laws were established, men, women, and children worked terribly long hours in often brutal and dangerous conditions...and still could not afford "empty" lifestyles.

The "good old days" weren't always so good.

i believe this statement refers to spiritual emptiness... nothing else... many believers struggle financially, emotionally and physically. they struggle with unbelief and lack of faith... struggle is eminent for everyone at some point in life... the saved and the unsaved. being Godly doesn't relinquish one from struggles. i happen to be one of them. but i believe my struggles are a direct result of my disobedience and and lack of faith... it's just another way to say that money can't buy one happiness... and the constant persuit of money is distracting to one that is professing to be a Christian and a seeker of the Lord...

"Over-stimulate their minds so that they cannot hear that still, small voice."

So we should under-stimulate our minds? The mind is a powerful thing. Suggesting that we should dumb ourselves down sounds like what they used to do in medieval times: keep the masses ignorant and illiterate so you can tell them what to believe.

i believe this refers to over induldging one's spirit with things that are not of God. your mind shouldn't be understimulated, it should just be fed along with the spirit. and that means going to church, reading the Word of God, "studying to show thyself approved"...it's not to promote ingnorance, it's just to say don't allow yourself to be too consumed with things that do not feed one's spirit...

"Entice them to play the radio or cassette player whenever they drive...to keep the TV, VCR, CDs and their PCs going constantly in their home and see to it that every store and restaurant in the world plays non-biblical music constantly. This will jam their minds and break that union with Christ."

Unless, of course, the radio plays Christian music? What about Christian TV networks, movies and books (like Left Behind) and the massive number of Christian websites? Are these also the work of Satan?

the things mentioned above related to Christian are spiritually stimulating. the Word, however it is delivered, is not the work of satan??? whether it be through Christian books, music, fictional stories, or websites...it feeds the spirit and soul... thus helps one (the believer) have a closer union with Christ.

"Fill the coffee tables with magazines and
newspapers. Pound their minds with the news 24 hours a day."

Magazines, newspapers, and 24-hour news channels keep millions of people more informed than at any other time in history. On the other hand, if you keep someone isolated from this constant flood of information, you can more easily mold their view of the world. It is happening in the madrassas that are increasingly responsible for the education of young martyrs in countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Ignorance and prejudice walk hand in hand.

i don't believe that one should be ingorant of the news of the world. but i do believe that one should not make that the 1st thing on their agenda. again i state, these things do not feed the spirit. the Word speaks of love and faith. not negetivity. i believe that at times these publications are not only negetive and disturbing, but they can cause one to loose sight of the goodness of his/her Father. the One in heaven that loves them in spite of themselves.

"Keep the wives too tired to love their husbands at night. Give them headaches too! If they don't give their husbands the love they need, they will begin to look elsewhere."

Again, this points to the possibility that the author of this tract has a rather misogynistic view of women. Aren't wives more than just sex objects? Isn't marriage more than just sex?

a marriage is much more than sex... but how many godly husbands/wives go astray because their sexual and emotional needs are not being met??? in fact that is the root of most affairs... i won't say all affairs because there is stuff like physical and emotional/verbal abuse, addiction, financial problems, etc... but negleting a spouses emotional and physical needs is the number one killer of happy marriages... not to mention self indulgence... which is hard not to have when one is consumed with their own agenda. i don't think this one emplies sex only... it implies intimacy... which is 100% necessary to keep two people in love... not sexual intimacy only... but the kind of intimacy that promotes love and passion... the kind of intimacy that keeps one caring about the other's feelings and well being and vice versa... love is not selfish or puffed up... it never looks to satisfy itself...

"Give them Santa Claus to distract them from
teaching their children the real meaning of
Christmas. Give them an Easter bunny so they won't
talk about his resurrection and power over sin and
death."

Yet if Christmas and Easter were droll, somber affairs, they wouldn't be as widely celebrated, would they? Christmas is an almost universally celebrated holiday in America. Without the lights, presents, and flashy wrapping paper, I doubt that the popularity of the holiday would continue.

Also remember that both Christmas and Easter are merely continuations of seasonal celebrations that were around long before Christianity.

Jesus was around long before the easter bunny and santa clause... the world took on and adapted these pagen symbols and identified them with the above mentioned holidays. the celebration of Christ is not boring at all... it's fun, colorful, musical, full of praises, etc... the world used these pagen symbols to minimize and/or try to create a distraction/barrier of what these days are really a clebration of and were adapted long after Christianity existed. being a Christian means that one believes in Jesus the Christ... and that is not newer than the easter bunny... if you look into history you can find the stories of how holidays like Christmas, Easter, Holloween, St. Patrick's Day and Valentine's Day have taken on a pagen significance, but were not originally celebrated as they are today... many Christians don't celebrate holloween because of the originality of it... but Christians have an answer to holloween... it's called all saints day...and pagenism is as old as the world itself. as is Jesus... as stated, "the Word (Jesus)was with God, the Word was God, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"... there is nothing older than God/Jesus/The Spirit... nothing

"Even in their recreation, let them be
excessive...have them return from their recreation
exhausted."

Again, a little historical perspective is in order. A hundred years ago, there wasn't nearly as much leisure time as there is today. Is it because people were more pious? Hardly! They were too exhausted from working the above-mentioned long hours to bother with recreation. It seems the author is implying that a higher standard of living (with the added recreation time that naturally follows) leads directly to evil.

i don't think that is what the author is implying at all... see i would like to say that the author is addressing the believer... the one that understands his points as they are associated with the Word of God... it would be harder for an unbeleiver to relate to what he is saying without understanding of the pricipals written in the Bible and ministered from the pulpit... it's not a pious thing... it's just like me trying to relate to something i don't have full knowledge of or little understanding of... i couldn't... i know that many types of recreation are distracting and leave little room for spiritual growth... and again, i'm sure the author is refering to the emptiness of one's spirit/soul... not their social life or their pockets... God wants all His children to put Him first...and God wants His children to have full, rich lives... but He wants to be acknowledged for it... i believe that i am sustained by God... and believing that is good for me... it takes me through the struggles of life with the assurance that i am loved unconditionally... and i am very comfortable with that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"Crowd their lives with so many good causes they have no time to seek power from Jesus."

So, Satan is the root of all good causes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

no, satan is not the root of good causes. he is the root of evil... the author of confusion and the father of lies... but i realize that isn't an answer... using my own experience as an example. my husband and i were active in the church... deep... my ex was a brilliant minister... he had the ability to deliver the Word in a way that really made one listen and recieve God...he helped many addicts find freedom from their addictions through Christ... he was always willing anytime of theday or night to run and help anybody outside of his family.. so much so that when his family needed him he wasn't available... this is not God's plan for us... of course He wants us to do good, be loving and charitable... but the family is what God loves and He does not want us to neglect our families for any reason or good cause... i believe that the fall of the defined rolls of men, women and children was the fall of the family...

As I said before, I believe in Satan about as much as I believe in the monster that used to hide under my bed, so I don't see a sinister plot to keep us "busy," Also, as I alluded to before, we aren't any less busy than we used to be...we're just busy with different things.

Instead of toiling away in the fields or factories of our ancestors, we're free to spend more of our time involved in other activities...including going to church.

Depending on which survey you read, anywhere from 92-97 percent of Americans profess to a belief in God, with about 75 percent specifically Christian. Church membership in America has actually been steadily rising since 1776.

this may be a fact. i cannot argue it, but i do know that Christians are the most disrespected and discrimitated group among humanity... i can also say that i have found myself so involved in doing things the world offers that i don't go to church on Sunday, read my Word or pray as i know i should... church membership may be up, but i don't think attendance is... that part is only my opinion... to sum it up... i believe the aurthor's point was don't allow yourself to be so caught up in the things of the world that you forget that God is the Author and the finisher of our(the believer's) faith
Peace and love...
kim...

Maybe this "plan" isn't working so well, after all!

<small>[ May 19, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: idostylin ]</small>

Kim, I totally understand your zeal for the subject and I am sorry that it &#8220;hurt&#8221; you. You know I luv&#8217;s ya. But what I wish to do is learn. Not learn of my adversary but of my fellow man. This is a common belief in our society and I wish to understand more about it. Believe it or not one of the best conversation I&#8217;ve ever had was discussing &#8220;religious &#8211; if you will&#8221; views with a practicing witch.

Cjack, the subject at hand is discrimination (for now) because if you will allow and neither of us grow tired, I have many questions. Before we get too involved are you living in the U.S. or some other country?

i love you too bill and it took you to bring me back to myself...

cjack politely asked me to keep out of this one and keep the threads seperate... so i have submitted to his request... but i had to reply to him in a godly fashion and let you see that it was in me...

as far as it hurting me... it's a good hurt... chastisment from someone who loves you is easy to swallow... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
peace...
kim...

I live in the US. You may fire when ready... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK on the subject of discrimination. Let me preface this by saying I&#8217;m not a history scholar by any means, so if I state something incorrect, please let me know.

The United States of America was founded for the purpose of escaping religious persecution and allow men &#8220;Freedom of Religion&#8221;. To me there is no doubt that our founding fathers were Christian men and wanted this country to allow Christianity of all forms to glow from sea to shining sea.

That being said, &#8220;One nation under God&#8221;, is no longer a legal statement in parts of the U.S., why and whom does that discriminate against?

The basic tenant of our religion &#8220;The Ten Commandments&#8221; is not allowed to be displayed in many public buildings, why and whom does that discriminate against?

School prayer groups are being dismantled, why and whom does that discriminate against?

I hold strong to my convictions and do not lie in court (not implying that you do), and a non-Christian boldly lies and deceives. The non-believer wins, why and whom does that discriminate against?

It seems to me that the &#8220;majority&#8221; of the people in our country believe in the word of the bible, yet many rules are put in place that discriminate against the majority and cater to the minority.

On an off topic, what do believe about the creation of our planet and man?

Does it offend you if someone says "I'll pray for you"?

PS. Unfortunately, I've got to run out of town for a while but I will try to check in before the end of the day, if not I'll be here tomorrow.

Well Bill, this is something I've done a LOT of reading on, so let's go point by point:

"The United States of America was founded for the purpose of escaping religious persecution and allow men “Freedom of Religion”. To me there is no doubt that our founding fathers were Christian men and wanted this country to allow Christianity of all forms to glow from sea to shining sea."

Actually, fewer than half of the people who came over on the Mayflower were pilgrims fleeing religious persecution. The original colonies were founded for trade. Oddly enough, the folks who settled on these shores wasted little time in starting religious persecution themselves! Almost all of the 13 colonies had laws that established an "official" sect of Christianity and discriminated against all others. There were even a few witch burnings, if you'll recall. Hardly what you'd call "religious freedom."

As to the faiths of the Founding Fathers, many of them wouldn't fit the definition of "Christian" that we use today. Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Thomas Paine, and Ethan Allen were all deists. Washington, though registered as an Episcopalian, acted more like a deist, while Adams was a Unitarian.

There is no doubt that they all believed in God, but Jefferson and Madison in particular worked to insure religious freedom for everyone...not just Christians. In fact, if you read some of Jefferson and Madison's personal correspondences, it becomes clear that these men, one of whom authored the Declaration of Independence, the other who is considered to be the "father of the Constitution" had a rather low opinion of organized religion and Christianity in particular.

In fact, a little known document reflects the intentions of the Founders quite clearly. In the Treaty of Tripoli, written under the Washington administration and signed by Adams, there is an article which states "...the government of the United States is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

"That being said, “One nation under God”, is no longer a legal statement in parts of the U.S., why and whom does that discriminate against?"

Do you know the origin of that phrase? The words "under God" were inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 by an act of Congress. The original Pledge of Allegiance (written by a Baptist minister, btw) contained no mention of God. The Pledge was changed in large part to distinguish the US from the "godless communists" that we were fighting back then.

As for who it discriminates against, that is easy...everyone who doesn't believe in God. What that phrase does is divide this previously indivisible nation into two camps: those who believe, and those who don't. It tells the non-believers that they aren't welcome, and that they should not be afforded the same rights and respect that believers are.

A great example of where this sort of thinking can lead is this quote:

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."

Who said it? George Herbert Walker Bush. I don't know about you, but that should scare anyone who believes in religious freedom.

"The basic tenant of our religion “The Ten Commandments” is not allowed to be displayed in many public buildings, why and whom does that discriminate against?"

Because the 1st commandment (thou shalt have no other gods before me) is in direct conflict with our Constitution. Posting the Ten Commandments in a public building such as a school is a government endorsement of religion that is expressly forbidden by our most basic law. To put the full force of the government behind a statement such as "thou shalt have no other gods before me" discriminates not only against non-believers, but people of other religions. What does that say to Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, and the multitude of other people who want to have "other gods?"

"School prayer groups are being dismantled, why and whom does that discriminate against?"

Along the same lines, officially sanctioned prayer in schools has been ruled unconstitutional several times over the past sixty years or so. Plus, school prayer is divisive. Do a Google search for "Philadelphia Bible Riots" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

"I hold strong to my convictions and do not lie in court (not implying that you do), and a non-Christian boldly lies and deceives. The non-believer wins, why and whom does that discriminate against?"

Are you suggesting that Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Jews, and people of other faiths "boldly" lie?

A 19th Century orator, Robert Ingersoll, had something to say about swearing an oath to God in court:

"A rascal by taking the oath appears to go in partnership with God, and ignorant jurors credit the firm instead of the man. A witness should tell his story, and if he speaks falsely should be considered as guilty of perjury."

"It seems to me that the “majority” of the people in our country believe in the word of the bible, yet many rules are put in place that discriminate against the majority and cater to the minority."

Sometimes the minority needs to be protected against the will of the majority. There was a time in this nation's history when a majority of people thought that slavery was perfectly acceptable. There was a time when a majority of people thought that women shouldn't be allowed to vote. There was a time when a majority of people thought it was perfectly normal to discriminate agaist blacks.

Every one of these ideas was put to the test against the Bill of Rights and the majority was found to be in the wrong. Sometimes, fortunately, the majority doesn't get what it wants.

As to the "creation" of our planet...I studied astronomy, physics, and biology as a teenager, and even took a couple of astronomy classes in college. I could go on for days about it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And no, it doesn't offend me when someone offers to pray for me. I don't think it'll do anything, but I appreciate the effort.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: cjack ]</small>

WOW!!! i'm keeping my words out, but i have to follow along... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Cjack,

Thank you for responding, I'm just know getting around to reading. This whole work thing gets in the way sometimes. Anyway, let me digest your comments and get back with you...

In the mean time please let me know how you are being discriminated against.

Thanks,

Bill

Specific instances of discrimination? There aren't many, since I'm a clean-cut guy who keeps his beliefs very private.

There was an incident last summer which, though I understand the "why," it still stung.

My best friend (a devout Catholic) asked me to be best man at his wedding. I was honored, and accepted. We've both helped each other through difficult times, and I was glad to see him getting married.

When his church found out that I wasn't a member of any church, they told him I could not be his best man. I could be an usher, or some other part of the wedding party, but I was not good enough to stand up for my friend.

That's the sort of thing I was talking about in the other thread, and the reason I keep my beliefs to myself. In college, I was pretty open about it. I worked with a lot of people who were in some Christian fellowship, and they were always trying to "witness" to me. When it became obvious that I wouldn't convert, their attitude towards me turned pretty cold.

Maybe "discrimination" is too strong a word...perhaps "rudeness" is a better one.

For example, whenever someone comes to the door selling salvation, I've learned that its better to say "thank you, praise Jesus." It makes them go away. If I say "sorry, but I'm agnostic," I get preached at until I slam the door in their face!

Also, its the condescending attitude I get from some Christians when they find out what I believe...or rather what I don't believe. They treat me like I'm some sort of lost soul, despite the fact that I'm perfectly happy with who I am.

Some mistakenly assume that I "wandered away" from the fold, and do their best to bring me back. Some question my morals, like you need to believe in God to be a good person. Some call me names, and some just say things like "oh, you're one of those people" or "well, you won't be so smug when you're burning in Hell!"

I've even had a relationship break up in large part because she couldn't deal with the fact that I was "going to Hell" and wouldn't convert just to make her happy!

Do you ever get those reactions when you tell people you're a Christian? Does anyone?

Of course, most people I've "come out" to have been non-judgemental and even supportive. I think this is mostly because I keep quiet about my beliefs until I know someone well enough to know that they won't judge me or turn on me. However, because of the negative reactions, my first instinct is to keep my mouth shut when the topic of religion comes up. The thing is, I shouldn't have to!

So let me ask you the same question: How are you being discriminated against?

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: cjack ]</small>

i hope this isn't an intrusion... i really want to answer your question... do you ever get that reaction when you tell people that you're a Christian??? Does any one???

just like you feel that believers turn their noses up at you because you aren't saved... Christians get the sam reaction because they are saved.

as far as a relationship not working out because of your spiritual beliefs. that's biblical.. we are not supposed to be unequally yoked.

as fas as anyone comdeming you to hell or rejecting you. i am sorry that you came across those over zealous saints that forget that they themselves are not God, therefore not the judge.

i amy have gotten angry and call you names, but i never condemed you...

according to the Word of God, if you do not accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will go to hell... whether you believe this or not, it is the Word. so, it matters whether one believes th Word. I do... maybe you don't... that doens't make it any less true or untrue.

if it's true being a good person isn't the key. if it isn't true then being a good person is enough... but if the Word isn't true there is no heaven anyway... so, it just doesn't matter.

"but for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"... i choose the believe... if i die a believer and find that i was all in vain, i'll feel nothing ventured nothing gained... if i die and it's all true, heaven, hell, the devil... OMG!!! need i say more... i choose to believe and to continue to "press for the mark"...

i don't judge you cjack!!! i promise... i mean, i don't think that you not being saved would cause me to cast you out of my life. i associate and am friendly with many people. some love the Lord and some don't believe...

because i believe that the devil is real, i wouldn't hang out with people that worship him... but that's about it...

NEway, in answer to your original question... Christains are very scorned. they are beaten and murdered for their beliefs still today...

Kim,

Those are the same arguments I got when people used to witness to me.

Not to derail the discussion, but one thing you said caught my eye...

"if it's [the Word]true being a good person isn't the key.

Just to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I believe the opposite. That being a good person is the most important thing. It DOES matter.

Confucius said it best...

"What is love?" one of his followers asked.

"To love mankind, that is love," he replied.

"But what is it?"

"To hold dear the effort more than the prize may be called love. The joy of doing something not for the prize one would get in the end, but for the joy itself, that may be called love. To do good not because you are going to be rewarded for it in this life or in a life to come, but to do good because you enjoy doing good, that is to love good. Love is its own reward. Love makes all things look beautiful. Love offers peace. When love is at stake, my children, yield not to an army!"

He thought for awhile, then added:

"A heart set on love can do no wrong!"

I try to live my life according to that principle. Not because I think it will get me into heaven, but because its a good way to live.

If there is an afterlife, and God or Jehovah or Allah or Vishnu or Shiva or Ahura Mazda or Mikado or Zeus is waiting for me, I'll have nothing to apologize for.

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: cjack ]</small>

just for future refrence these are all the same (God or Jehovah or Allah)...

and your quote of confucious is very similar to Corinthians which reads:

1COR 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (love), I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1COR 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (love), it profiteth me nothing.
1COR 13:4 Charity (love) suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity (love) envieth not; charity (love)vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1COR 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1COR 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1COR 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1COR 13:8 Charity(love)never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1COR 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1COR 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1COR 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1COR 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity (love).

i guess the main issue here is, that i read and believe the Word to be the truth and you don't. i believe the bible is my life's manual. so, i base everthing i say and TRY to do on those principals.

those people that used to witness to you also base their beliefs on the same bible... and i guess beacause you have other principals that you base your life style on there is somewhat of a conflict.

but, i just want to know one thing... what is your oppisition to having salvation? if you are an overall good person and you basically believe in certain principals that are basically godly if one were to label the principals. tell me. please...

Sorry Cjack & Idostylen, I didn't mean to start the topic and run. I've been swamped lately between work and last week of school activities and start of summer kids activities. But trust me "I'LL BE BACK".......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by idostylin:
<strong>but, i just want to know one thing... what is your oppisition to having salvation? if you are an overall good person and you basically believe in certain principals that are basically godly if one were to label the principals. tell me. please...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Without going into too much detail, let's just say there are certain aspects of the Christian faith that I cannot accept under any circumstances.

I'm sure you'd never convert to Islam, Judaism, or Buddhism, right?

As far as the principles I live my life by, I've found that they're not necessarily "godly" principles at all. Almost every religion that has ever existed teaches the same basic moral codes...don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, treat others as you would want to be treated, etc.

I just live my life by that code, and reject the religious aspect.

So many people live their lives a certain way because their holy book commands them to, or because they fear eternal damnation, or because they hope for some reward in heaven.

I don't. I strive to be a good person because good is an end in itself.

It's a simple philosophy, really.

well i think the details are important... i'm not trying to minister to you necessarily, but you may be wrong about something you think you know... know what i mean... i think the details are the issue... that was the question... if you prefer not to answer i understand...

also i beg to differ with you about the philosiphy being the same... they are not because there are differences that individualize each one you named... and i guess you know that we Christians believe that there is no such thing as "good works"... there is no works (good living) good enough to get a man/woman into heaven without accepting Jesus and their Lord and Savior. and, "Christianity is not a religion; it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ."

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: idostylin ]</small>

Well, if you really do want details...

First off, I don't want to derail this thread, but I think it is important for you (and anyone else who might be reading) to know where I'm coming from.

You stated one of the primary reasons I can't accept Christianity: No amount of good works will get you into heaven.

Mind you, I don't believe in heaven, so there's that aspect. As I said before, I do good things for their own sake, not because I'm trying to score brownie points with a deity.

In the larger view, I can't accept a religion that teaches that good works are meaningless.

The equations look like this:

Accept Jesus = heaven when you die.

Don't accept Jesus = straight to hell.

Nothing else matters. The way you live your life is irrelevant. The bottom line is that your admission to heaven is not based upon whether or not you are a good person, but rather on who you chose to worship.

I'm sorry, but I just can't accept that.

Next question?

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: cjack ]</small>