okay, i get that... but let me make one correction here...

accepting Jesus as your Savior is a requirement according to Christianity, but it does not mean that "good works are meaningless"... we do not teach that... we teach that there is only one God and that it is impossible for a man to live righteous with out the spirit of the Lord guiding you. as you know, we believe that the shedding of Jesus's blood cleanses us from unrighteouness... it gives us grace. so even though we fall short the grace of God is our covering. of course you have to strive to be a godly (good person), but it's not that alone that will get you into heaven according to a Christian's beliefs...

now, i'm not saying this to withness to you. but i feel that you may have some misunderstandings and/or misconceptions.

i see that you are very knowledgable of history, but you seem to not be as knowledgable about the teachings of the bible and the true meaning/requirements of being a Christian, which i say again is not a religion... being a christian means one has a relationship with Christ. and many, many religious people don't have that. religion means to do the same thing the same way without change. in the church the practices are religious. they are the same. open with prayer, close with prayer. in the middle a song, a prayer, a word from the minister. religiously they do the same things. many church doctrines are not from God or even required by God. this is man's doing... so claiming to be religious is not a big claim... it's just saying you do things consistantly...

finally, i don't think we are derailing the thread. i think we are exdpanding it. it's all relative. don't you think???

OK back too it for a moment. I’ve got just a little time. Kim, as always, it’s great to hear you chime in.

Cjack, I haven’t went all the way through yet, but I intend too. You seem like a very straight forward person and that’s cool, I enjoy hearing others opinions and beliefs.

“””In the larger view, I can't accept a religion that teaches that good works are meaningless.”””

You and me both, brother. However my belief if that good works are not meaningless, we still are to strive to be the best we can be BUT we are not saved through deeds but through the divine gift of faith given on the cross.

You also seem very logical and touchy feely. A can you prove it type of person. Which again, I’m all for that, but there are things in mathematics, astronomy, physics, and so on that can’t be proven. Sometimes we simply have to have faith in the “theory” of something being true, false, or having existence. Many top scientists I’m sure share your views, but because of what many other top scientists know, they embrace religion because there may be no other explanation that they are willing to put faith in.

Can I believe in dinosaurs and other creatures millions of years ago? Sure I can and for those who say that life began in the water the bible is a perfect example of that.

Can I believe in evolution and creation at the same time? Again, sure I can and the bible doesn’t do anything to discredit that.

Can I believe that the was a person put on this earth named Jesus Christ? Well I sure better if I’m a Christian, but is there any proof. Obviously my proof lies in my faith and belief that the scriptures were written by divine inspiration. For touchy/feely I can always refer to the “Shroud of Turon”, which is believed to be what Jesus was wrapped in when laid in the tomb. Scientists have done extensive studies on it. Pollen from plants are indigenous to the region. Carbon dating puts it in the correct time. The placement of blood deposits fit where they should (i.e. nail through the wrist and not through the hand since it is widely accepted that the hand bones would not have supported his weight). Stab mark to the side, yup it’s there. I could go on about that.

I guess what I’m implying is that science and religion can walk hand in hand, because they both require faith in something at one time or another. What seems to be in short supply at times is tolerance for other’s views. It is either black or white, PERIOD. But what they don’t realize is that we could all be wrong and it could be yellow. Black is only black because that’s what we’ve been taught that it is.

PS I am sorry about the wedding thing. Catholicism has many aspects that I personally don’t agree with. But they also have many that suite me just fine. I thing that I truly believe about the Bible is that it is there for interpretation; furthermore it’s there for individual interpretation and not necessarily secular.

That you are able to be good buddies with members of faith as I am with my witch friend says a lot about us. Tolerance is definitely one of my strong convictions, not to mention it does lead to some awesome conversation.

One other thing, just out of curiousity, Republican or Democrat or other?

Thanks to you both for the replies.

Kim, I don't want to nit-pick doctrinal issues with you. I think its just one of those "agree to disagree" points.

I will agree that the Christian denominations DO teach the value of good deeds and "godly" living.

Bill, you've got a pretty good read on me, I think. Close, at least!

It's true that I am a skeptic. If someone makes a claim, I say "that's fine, now prove it."

I think what you're getting at with regards to the religious faith of scientists points towards fideism. They don't have a rational explanation for their beliefs, but they cling to them because they are comforting.

As far as science and religion goes, I tend to go with Stephen Jay Gould's NOMA idea...that is, Non-Overlapping Magisteria. There are some questions that science can answer, and some questions that are best left to religious faith. That said, I try to respect both approaches, because both science and religion are seeking the same thing: Truth.

I'm also glad to hear that you're not a Biblical literalist. I think the most irritating and dangerous members of any faith (even atheism) are the fundamentalists who insist that they alone have the correct interpretation of the Word of God.

Politically? I gave up on both the Democrats and Republicans years ago. I've been voting Libertarian since '92.