Obviously the WS has had lots of experience lying and trying to cover-up the truth. I find my STBX still trying to keep things secret from me or telling me lies to cover up something she really doesn't want me to know. Usually these seem to be issues related to her work or social activities. How can two parents expect to work out a parenting agreement if you never know if the ex- is telling the truth? This is one reason I have not waivered in my stance that I want to be the primary residential parent of our children. I just don't know when to trust my WW (STBX).

Anyone out there with experience working out custody and parenting agreements with ex's that you just are not sure you can trust?

HoFS

No Wayward stuff in mine, but I don't trust anything STBX says.
He's fought the custody all the way, so we went to the psychological evaluations (court ordered) to determine custody recommendation - and he's ignored them.
However, I did get the opportunity to discuss issues of concern with the psych, which he then put into the recommendation. Such as, neither party will leave the children alone in the house, even while working in an unattached garage on the property. And also, the Right of First Refusal is important to include, should she just drop your children off at friends houses. My sTBS still ignores this one too.

Get as much as you can in writing. The reason the other party doesn't want you to have residential custody, is because the schools will be based on your residence.

Good Luck. Let me know what type of parenting plan you are suggesting. I think I've seen them all. I'm 15 months into the divorce process, and am actually filing for Pendente Lite custody since he keeps ignoring the recommendation and our requests to discuss it.

I don't mean to create a stir, but, why are your STBX's work or social activities any of your business?

It was my x who was the ws in our marriage, but, when we divorced (13 years ago), I couldn't fathom why he thought my activities were any of his business, and, I still don't. Unless the children are in danger, your former spouse's life is just that...HER life.

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: BeenThereMyself ]</small>

Been there - obviously you didn't know that Hoffs' wife has had affairs with her clients - illegal aliens who are also criminals, etc. and exposed his and her children to those criminals - in their own home. She lives for giving her services to these creeps - and I'm not just talking social work services either.

Kayla~You're right, I didn't know. It was just a real sore spot for me when I was going through it. I wasn't doing anything I was ashamed of (or that was harmful to our children), so I resented the intrusion.

Unless Hoff can arrange supervised visitation/sole custody, I don't see that he has too many options. Even the healthiest of former spouses are not fond of being quizzed. An unhealthy former spouse is significantly worse.

BTM-

Yes, KaylaAndy got it right. My W has been involved in situations that, law enforcement has told me, put our family at risk. I am walking a fine line with my Dv. I have to really think about how much information I'm willing to divulge in court. I need to consider if it is in the best interest of the children if their mom is in jail at this time. No, she's not doing drugs but she has been involved in illegal activies. It's not every spouse that helps people avoid police detection by bringing these 'clients' into our home. What would you do if you knew one of your clients committed a serious crime (rape/murder)? Responsible people might report it. Not my W. I asked her about this once and she said, "Well, I would need to talk with my 'client' about it to find out their version of the story." What would you do if you found out your spouse, against your spoken wishes, left the children alone in the home and care of people that could be arrested at any time?

My W says the same thing you stated, what she does with her social and work time is her business. Well, she got the family involved. This is the same woman that sent money to a 'client' out of the country and told me it was none of my business because it came from her paycheck. Might have made sense if we had not had joint bank accounts and credit cards for 18 years! This is the same woman that decided to put our credit at risk by setting up phone service for several of her 'clients' in her name using her SSN. It showed up in a credit check. Apparently at least one 'client' was delinquent paying phone bills. This is the same woman that tries to change her children's vision of reality such as when she isn't home to meet a child off the bus but then tells the child she most certainly was here (except there was a store receipt to prove otherwise).

I believe it is in the best interest of the children if I get accountability from their mother and the only way I've been able to get some protection for the last year or so is through temporary court orders that prevented her from bringing her 'clients' in our home and around our children. My W has also told the psychologist making the custody evaluation that, "Those are no professional guidelines that prevent me from having these relationships with my clients." Oh, did I mention, her clients were also students in her teaching program and that OM1 and OM2 were students and OM3 was a supervisor? I need to do what I can to protect the kids.

Newly-
Thanks for your notes. My custody or parenting proposal calls for several things including that the kids do not have contact with my W's clients. The proposed living arrangements are that I am the primary residential parent and the kids' primary residence is in the current home with me. During school days they would go to my W's home after school and I would pick them up at 6 pm and be responsible for putting them on the bus in the morning. We have the kids on alternating weekends and holidays and split the time in the summer. This is fairly close to a 50/50 split but my W is not satisfied unless she gets the kids 5 days/week in her home and alternating weekends. In her plan, they would only sleep over at my home on alternating weekends. The other proposals I've made call for us to contact each other as first option if sitters are needed and to consult each other on choice of medical care, school activities, and other outside activities as well as to keep each other informed of notes from school and other activities. Doesn't this sound reasonable? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Oh, and I am also insisting that my W undergo additional pyschotherapy as highly recommended by the psychologist doing the custody evaluation. In fact, the psychologist indicated that my W should not have unsupervised visits with the kids unless she is undergoing this treatment.

So in a nutshell, that is the parenting plan I have filed with the court. My W and her attorney were sent a draft of this plan and they had no comment. They have not made any proposals themselves. They are willing to wait for the court to decide one way or another at the final hearing.

Anything else you think I should have considered putting in the plan?

HoFS

The psych who did our eval. was very against the children spending every other night in a different bed at a different house.
It sounds like they sleep at your house every weeknight, but get to see each parent every weekday, which seems like a good thing.

Our psych also suggested that we attend counseling for parenting skills and communication. I too have heard nothing from STBX about the recommendations, so pendente lite was filed yesterday. YEAH!

I know how you feel. I don't want to know STBX's whereabouts, I just want to know that my children are safe. Currently he lives with his parents, so I know they are cared for by 3 (OK 2.5 adults). It's when he lives alone that I worry.

I worry that he'll leave them alone in the house. That he'll be moving heavy equipment outside and they'll run to see him and he won't see or hear them and run over them. This man can't even feed the dog on a daily basis, I don't trust him with my girls. And I don't necessarily trust all of his employees (who are on the property daily). At least one has been arrested for rape. Sound familiar. (Did you get bail bondsmen calling your house too?) My children are friendly with these men, who I don't think will hurt them, but I can understand your worry.

Good Luck to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by newly:
<strong>
Good Luck to you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks newly. No, no bail bondsmen at our home yet but I really, really regret not calling the police when 1) she brought someone to our home to avoid detection and 2) some of her clients came to our home, drunk, parked their car on our lawn and relieved some of the pressure built up by consuming copeous amounts of beer, on our lawn. Instead, I called my W at her workplace and asked her to come out to take care of it.

I still worry some about the judgements my STBX makes and how that might impact her role as the mother of our children. She has no idea of the lengths I've gone to, to prevent her from getting in trouble with the law. It does make discipline a little difficult at home when on one hand my W tells the kids there are consequences for their unacceptable behavior and yet, she thinks she should have not consequences. Just no consistency. The psych report also gave her a very, very low score on the parenting section. My lawyer didn't remember seeing a score so low. And my STBX had to retake one psych test because the first time her responses were considered invalid. Can you say, "lying or trying to give the psychologist the answers you think they want to hear?" She also berated the psychologist for favoring me. Not a very smart thing to do.

Still, it seems every few days I later find out about another lie or attempt to deceive me. Like not really telling me where she is going to be during/after work this weekend. I'm sorry, but as long as we are living under the same roof and trying to parent the kids together, I don't see why she should try to deceive me about where she is going to be unless she thinks it is a bad thing anyway.

These lies strengthen my resolve to have as much control over the kids as possible. I just don't know when I can trust my W. Unfortunately I don't get any support from my in-laws because they don't believe their daughter could be doing all these things and my parents tell me they won't know for sure if I'm telling the truth until the court hearing in another couple of months. I guess the court orders that have been in place for 12 months aren't enough evidence for them. It is a difficult way to live.

Good luck with your case newly.

HoFS

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

HoFS - there are many points to address, but first off, should your stbx go to jail, you are very likely to get sole custody. Do you think that might be better for your kids in the long run? Your stbx is getting away with everything so far, partly with your help. What do you think is going to change now after the Dv? How are you going to feel if something really bad happens, and you have done little to stop it? These steps that I'm hinting at are never to be taken lightly. But the stakes are very high, the potential costs of not acting are very high. You seem to be hoping that everything will just magically change for the better.

It doesn't matter very much what kind of behavioral conditions you put into a parenting agreement, those are very tough to prove and enforce. Here's an example. My wife insisted on a clause that kids would be supervised while in our custody. She was concerned about my kids wandering around the apartment complex. They carry pocket radios when they go play with a friend. But now, it turns out she has been leaving my 11 year old home alone, extensively. He overeats during those times and it's causing problems. Granted, this is a smaller thing than your concerns, but what would I do about it if I were so inclined? Go back to court? Call the police? Talking to my wife about it doesn't work.

We have a custody agreement where I have 5 overnights every 2 weeks. Wed/Thurs this week, then Tues next week, and Fri/Sat till Sunday 8 p.m. It works because I rent in the same school district, and I just pick them up or drop them off at school on my days. It works fine for everyone.

Yes, my wife lies and covers up a lot of stuff, not just about sex. One point, is to develop and maintain your own sources of information. Make sure the teachers, principals, doctors, coaches all know there are two parents, that they have both addresses and phone numbers. Make sure you stay involved with all of them. One time last year, I showed up for my daughter's dance recital, and my wife had pulled her out of it. Just 3 days earler, I had been talking to my wife about the recital, and she somehow neglected to mention that. My approach is to let those type of events slide off, but also redouble my efforts to independently stay on top of things.

Here's another example about written agreements. Our court order for support says that we are to notify each other, and the court, within 7 days of any material change in circumstances. I did that in January, when I got a raise of about 5%. My wife changed jobs last fall and probably doubled her salary. The salary is still a big secret. Her day care expenses are also much less than what she said they would be. What am I going to do about that? Maybe go back to court, but it takes time and is expensive. The court order says we can be held in contempt for not reporting changes, but that does not seem to bother my wife or my wife's lawyer. Maybe everybody knows that's an empty threat.

In my case, I don't worry about what she's doing socially. I hear that my two boys stay up till 1 a.m. on weekends, watching South Park and other stuff on cable until they fall asleep on the family room couches. And I don't like that, but there is nothing I can do about it. So I don't try to do anything about it. I just worry about the things I can do something about.

But in your case, I don't know if the "hands off" idea really applies. Your circumstances are much different.

One of my biggest worries is that my wife will attempt to relocate after our divorce is final. Stage 1 is to fight it, since she will probably have no economic, family, or marital reason for doing so. Stage 2 is to move to the same city, if necessary.

To summarize, I would make backup plans and last-ditch contingency plans for everything that is important to you, on the assumptions that you cannot trust her and that she will not change her behaviors. It's great to have stuff in writing, and it's probably even essential, but don't let that be your only defense.

I agree with Newly.
Don't cover for her anymore. You are just enabling her.
If you give her an inch she takes a mile.
Also, if you know your children are at risk with her you will be held accountable.
The custody sounds fair to me.
I'm presantly going through all of this with my STBXH. We are being evaluated by a court doc.
He won't agree to let our children reside with me because of his control issues. He has put our children and other children at risk.
I'm not standing by and allowing it anymore.
He needs to grow up.

Aly

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tmmx:
<strong>HoFS - there are many points to address, but first off, should your stbx go to jail, you are very likely to get sole custody. Do you think that might be better for your kids in the long run? Your stbx is getting away with everything so far, partly with your help. What do you think is going to change now after the Dv? How are you going to feel if something really bad happens, and you have done little to stop it? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tmmx-

Thanks for your input. Yes, I have been enabling my W to continue many of her activities. I thought that by doing so, my W would see that I cared about her and her service/work activities and would respect me more. I was wrong.

On the other hand, after I filed for Dv a year ago, a lot of this activity that was going on through her job, stopped. The court orders have also helped reduce but not eliminate the activity.

I don't think I can manage to get full custody. Neither does my lawyer. For a father even to get primary residential custody in this county will be somewhat of a coupe. I have tried to build as much protection into my custody/parenting plan as I think I can get. I do have to admit though, every time my STBX tells another lie or tries to deceive me, it just makes me trust her less. She thinks no harm comes from these little lies. They hurt me terribly.

I understand about staying in touch with teachers, etc. I participate in as many of our children's activities as possible. I've coached some of their sports teams. I am no stranger to their teachers and I've volunteered to help in their classrooms. I'll even occassionally stop in during lunchtime to share a pizza or sub and then to play during the recess period that follows. Yes, you have good advice there. Recently, I asked my STBX for the phone number of the people my youngest son would be staying with one afternoon after school. She said she didn't want to give it to me until she contacted the family to get approval because it was an unlisted number. Give me a break. I'm going to know where my son is staying and with whom.

At least I know with my request that the court orders my STBX to seek additional psychotherapy, I can be assured that my STBX will not have the kids unsupervised without approval from the court and a psychologist. I really hope that happens.

Thanks also Aly. I'm done enabling. If my STBX does anything that is of concern, I let my lawyer know immediately in case we need to take immediate steps to protect the kids.

HoFS

Hoff~I am (was) on the opposite side of your predicament. It was my x who had "questionable" judgement about A LOT of things, so I do understand where you are coming from. Lets just say "loan sharks" were an issue and there was also some criminal conduct on HIS part.

I solved it by moving across the country with the children. I agreed to give him joint custody of the children as long as he didn't try to prevent me from moving. Since I'd spent almost all my life in the same general area, he didn't believe I'd ever leave. He took the gamble and lost, again.

For the first 2 years, I sent the kids to "visit" for 6-8 weeks during the summer. I was on pins and needles the whole time BUT, it did the trick. He realized he didn't want to have that "responsibility" day in and day out...just like when we were married. Anyway, instead of sending the kids to him, he starting coming to see the kids. He's never stayed in town longer than 4 days and the kids never stayed with him in his hotel room. HE "thought" they'd be more comfortable in their own rooms...which, roughly translated, meant, "I don't know what to do with them for more than a few hours at a time." I wanted to make sure the kids spent so much time with him that HE'D get tired of the hassle and become a footnote in their lives. What I'm really trying to say is I practically shoved the kids down his throat in the beginning, because I knew if he thought I wanted them to stay with him, he'd figure that by "not taking" them, he'd be inconveniencing me. Conversely, (or to be more accurate...perversely), if he thought I HAD TO have them with me, he'd fight to make sure it didn't happen.

Good luck, Hoff. It's hard.

BTM

Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God.

I have similar issues as you. We had a poor judge the first time around and he ruled to have joint Physical. I have them 2 weeks then she 2 weeks. The Home evaluator said I should have them but the judge from what I have been told has had more A s than my XWW. So that probably played into it.

I am currently apealing the decision. I have also filed and settled lawsuites against the OM - Our family Dr. And filed complaints against Him and her with their employer.

My opinion is that accountability is appropriate.

John