I recently read the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and realized that this is the situation I'm in with my wife (she being abusive). While this gave me some insight into why things haven't worked between us for so many years, it gave me a feeling of "no hope" of ever overcoming this situation.<P>A verbally abusive person lives in a "different reality" from other people. They are unable to carry on a normal relationship due to their need for always being "one-up" on others.<P>We've gone to counseling before, but she always quits. We've never made it to even setting ground-rules for discussing issues with each other. She has resolved never to go to counseling with me again because I'm the only one with any problems. In the mean time, she has smeared my character to my two daughters (also abuse victims) who believe it and no longer show any love for me. <P>I'm convinced that there is little hope for a normal relationship when the spouse is an abuser.

Gogie, I am going through the same thing with my husband. He is a verbal abuser along with other forms of control, abuse, neglect, etc. A few years ago I also read that book by Patricia Evans. I felt the same way you do when I read it. But I don't want to believe that it is impossible for anybody to change, maybe because I believe in a bigger God. Sure God won't force somebody to change, but He does have a way toward change for anyone willing to let Him work in their life. I hear it takes a crisis for many of these stubborn types to wake up and start recovery. <BR>I have since run across stories of people who were controllers, abusers, or addicts...and they committed themselves to recovery and worked on new habits and better relational skills. Just recently I found Keith Miller, heard him speak on tape, and I ordered a book of his. He was a controller, and is a well-known speaker & author. I am encouraged by this! <P>Would you spouse go to a Harley seminar?<BR>I think his program is perfect for re-training a verbal abuser!!...<BR>I tried to get my H to go, but he dropped me off at the door and left!...So I know your disappointment! But I went anyway, got the materials, and it is all here for him to use. <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 04, 2001).]

Thanks Renae! You're right of course--things which are impossible with men are possible with God. That's why I'm "hanging in there", continuing to pray, and watching for God to work. I'm also open to the idea that he really wants to work in me.<P>I don't know if my W would go to a seminar. I've tried before and there are always "reasons" why she can't go. There have also been situations where I've been afraid to ask.<P>More than anything, I'm concerned about my two girls. They are taking on the attributes of abusers themselves and I want so much for them to overcome it.

I understand completely!! You are not alone!!<P>Seems I have tried "everything", but that is from my own understanding, of course. Prov. 3:5-6 reminds us to not lean on that but to acknowledge HIM. When I get the urge to RUN!, I think of how it is God's job to direct my steps. He sees a bigger picture. I can't fix H, but God is working in us. So we have to pray and look expectantly for the next right move! <P>Yes, we must be open to God doing a work in us.<BR>And He promised us He is and will complete it!<BR>It is no surprise to HIM that we are in this situation, but like Joseph I do believe what the Evil One meant to destroy us, God will turn around for good. <P>Harley and others at this site and elsewhere may advise a separation (make a crisis), along with support counseling, in hopes of bringing change. I am not ruling out that route, for it may be necessary for safety and keeping sanity, but in recent weeks I sensed God speaking to me "don't leave yet"...and sure enough, we hooked up with new therapists who are the best ones yet!!...and so far H is cooperating like never before! Therapist tells me to hang on! <P>So keep listening to God. Pray and watch for his leading.<BR>Do you have a support person? <P>Yes, I've been afraid to ask too. There is a time to ask and a way to ask, but sometimes we just demonstrate the love of Christ and model how we want to be treated (hoping she/he learns from our example). Our spouses are wounded souls...and we need to keep that in mind as we try to relate to them. <P>(((((Gogie)))))<P><BR> <P>

Forgot to mention--<BR>Yes, I have 2 girls too!! I see the effects on them and wonder if I should grab them and run!!<P>But in the past 2 days, one of them (age 14) said some things (after her dad left the house following one of his acts), and I was surprised at her insight!!! Wow!! She does know he is acting abnormal and even where it comes from!!!<BR>I am relieved at this, yet I still believe I need to protect the kids from this "evil" by leaving! I don't want them to feel this is familiar and marry somebody like this!!<BR>AGAIN, I must keep listening for God's direction....<BR>Maybe He will deliver us soon?!!<P>

You're a real encouragement to me Renae. May God bless you for it.<P>I do have a main support person--the counselor that I started seeing (once) with my W. I have stuck with her and she has shown me how to work on things I can control and leave the rest to God. She challenges me to be the kind of H that God wants me to be and leave the consequences to God. Right now, that involves a lot of tough love--challenging my W on sinful behavior like smearing me to our children. Unfortunately, my challenges right now are "harsh", but at least I'm challenging. I'll work on refining it. The hardest has been to challenge when she abuses the children. Often times when I do that, they take her side and chime in on the abuse. My W likes to pour on the abuse in front of them so they can be involved and validate her position.<P>Thanks for your prayers. I feel them. I'm praying for you.

Gogie,<BR>A key statement I got out of Evan's book is that abusers abuse because they can't handle their own negative emotions, stresses, etc. They project their inner conflicts onto the spouse. Is this what you see from your W? <BR>Are you aware of specific issues from the past that she hasn't resolved or completely grieved a loss--and this is fueling her abusive behavior? This is true of my H. We are hoping in therapy now to get to the bottom of this stuff if H will allow it! But I also see patterns of relating in H's family & church that contributed to how H acts. <P>You're doing the right thing--seeing that counselor and challenging your W! Whether you see results or not, do tell her that her behavior is inappropriate and will not be tolerated anymore and specify how things would be better handled for the joy of all of your family. Keep it positive. You are fortunate also, Gogie, as God-ordained head of your home, you can do this. (My H will not let his wife tell him what to do!)<P>Ooooooh!...that is the worst thing he/she can do is to involve the kids as referees or make the kids side with him/her against the other parent! This doesn't happen often here, but when it does, it is hard to stop! Does your counselor give you any advice of how to prevent these incidents and protect the kids?<P>One book I read says that some abusers will typically target the spouse only and not abuse the kids. For the most part this is true of my situation. But what he does do toward them is still bad! One thing: I keep telling my H to meet me in private and not "discuss" controversial things in front of the kids, but when he blows up, he doesn't care and they have witnessed his treatment of me. This is so harmful for the kids! (Thanks for the reminder--I must have the new Therapist deal with this!)<P>Is there anyone your spouse could/would become accountable to? A pastor, perhaps? Since my spouse continually discounts my assessment of him & his behavior, getting him to become accountable to someone else is the only way I can see of producing change. <P>I guess what bothers me more than the verbal abuse, is H's inability to be emotionally intimate, nurturing, building relationship. I believe Harley's program would help that part, along with therapy on his inner shame & unresolved pain & grief. <P>The Lord will bless you, Gogie, for the efforts you are making to assist your wife in her growth and for the improving of the marriage and family life!! Go forward with HIS awesome strength, wisdom, and love!<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Renae <BR>

Renae,<BR>A while back, I shared about my marriage relationship with our Pastor. It was hard because I'm a deacon in the Church and we're supposed to have our families "in order". He was shocked, but has been very supportive. He's faithfully prayed for us and that has meant a lot. I share with him from time to time.<P>He mentioned that my W went to him to "complain" about me. He didn't share the details, but said that he told her to submit to my leadership. That must not have gone over very well with her!<P>"Spiritual abuse" is an issue in our raltionship. W has never said anything positive about my involvement in the church. In fact, she heaps on all sorts of abuse relating to spiritual things. I was interim music minister. Never heard anything except "God has not called you to be music minister". Worse yet, I hear "a leader in the Church who is in touch with God would not behave the way you're behaving". "If you were in touch with God, things would be different". At the same time W claims SHE is the one in touch God. When confronted with sinful behavior, she claims to be only answerable to God, not me.<P>I fear for my W in the context of Matthew 18:6-7. The way she encourages our daughters to treat me is straight from hell.<P>Is my W projecting her inner conflicts on me? MOST DEFINITELY! W grew up being verbally abused by her father. The kind of abuse that she and her mother endured are unbelievable. Her mother never did anything to stop it--just endured for the "sake of the kids". I used to hear about this stuff all the time during courtship and early in our marriage. UNFORTUNATELY, I MISSED THE RED FLAG. Now as a grown woman, W no longer mentions anything about it. In fact she seems to have "forgiven" her father. The target for the childhood abuse is now me.<P>Is W accountable to anyone? The only person she shares with is her mother. I have occasionally overheard her talks with her mother. I've heard things like: Everything he despises, he is". The mother has also bought into this notion that I'm the problem. So, W is being "accountable" to someone who is encouraging her to perpetuate the problem. That illustrates how sick the situation is.<P>I've read some of your other postings in the "other topics" area. You sure have gone thru some difficult stuff. I'll keep reading them and praying for you. Somehow, it helps knowing there is a sister out there who's struggling the way I am--that I'm not alone. Of course, the greatest comfort is know that our Great God knows our needs before we even think them and promises to meet every one of them. BTW, I heard a message from Charles Stanley early Sunday morning called "Our Unmet Needs". It really spoke to me. Check out <A HREF="http://www.intouch.org" TARGET=_blank>www.intouch.org</A> <P>Prayerfully,<BR>Gogie

Oh! I see we are rowing similar boats!! <BR>Fortunately for us, Jesus has firm hold of the oars!<P>I don't know how far back you read of my posts but I've been here, since I believe a year ago April....I let [censored] know a list of trials our family has been thru & then I deleted that post...everything from our baby that died to legal hassles with a fraudulent attorney. These things complicate the underlying personal issues of H & our marriage even more. We were absorbed with these other matters for years, unable to deal with the marriage. <P>Spiritual abuse is BIG to deal with. H had called my Christianity "wimpy" when I joined the worship team and choir at a local church a few years ago. He said real Christianity is about standing in persecution, etc!!! (Little does he know that's what I was doing, but against his persecution of me!) Of course, involvement in praise and worship is the best thing we can do when the battle rages too!! I recently asked a local pastor if I was doing the right thing to drop out of H's church (I could no longer emotionally cope with harshness at both church and home!) Afterall, am I not supposed to submit to H's leadership? But this pastor said I am doing right to leave and not enable H's problem!!<P>AGAIN, God is BIGGER! We will trust Him in the battle!!<BR>I love the verse in Isaiah (NIV): "He will be a SURE FOUNDATION for your times....." HURRAY!!<P>In Christ,<BR>Renae<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 06, 2001).]

Hi Renae and gogie,<P>Boy after reading your discussion here, I felt so sad for you both, and for myself too! It mad me cry.<P>I'm in a similar situation. Verbal abuse escalated to the point where threats caused me and my daughter to leave the house for 3 days recently. He kept telling me he would make my life so miserable that I would want to leave, that he would destroy my property, and that I was lucky he didn't hit me. This was over the fact that I did not fix dinner that evening. Our leaving was enough to get the serious threats of harm to stop. However, our relationship has not really improved. The problems are intact.<P>I made a firm commitment to myself and my daughter that I would call the police if he ever mad another threat of serious harm to me or her. So far, I have not had to follow through on this. She cried her eyes out, as did I, when the decision was made to go back home. She begged and pleaded with me not to go back but I had no choice. Not enough money. I needed to return to prepare myself finacially to be on my own. I only have a part time job. Not enough to support myself and my daughter. I'm working on it.<P>I too, read the verbally abusive relationship as well. It fits what my experiences have been with my husband. He twists perceptions and thoughts to the point where I am confused and it keeps me off balance.<P>What appears different in my situation is the fact that my husband's verbal abuse has had a profound impact on my children, ages 13 and 19. Both of them despise their father and no amount of work on this has impacted their feelings for him. My daughter has not spoken to him since last christmas due to the verbal abuse he directed towards her. She is on antidepressants and seeing a therapist weekly. <P>Anyway, In terms of whether or not there is hope for our relationship - I realized recently that my h is part of the whole, and he sees nothing wrong with what he says or does. I can only do my part. <P>We have been to 2 therapists and he quit both times when the going got tough. (like two sessions) Then he went to church, got baptised and then left that too, saying that he was convicted about his problems with pornography so he no longer wants to go.<P>I am filing the divorce papers next week. I finally stepped out of the confusion and uncertainty of what was happening in our relationship. Evans makes it clear that when you set boundaries, obtain your own sense of self-esteem, and set limits on verbal abuse, you will quickly see whether or not your spouse is willing to change and deal with the abuse. The answer I got back was No.<P>I know I sound strong now, but I can assure you, it has happened only recently. I had to go through a difficult grieving period to get to this place. I went through two years of pure hell trying to deal with my husband and address the issues. Although we have been married 20 years, his behavior had escalated and caused me unbarable pain.<P>The esculation began when I graduated from college and he decided, within two weeks of graduation, that from now on, things were going to be done exactly the way he wants them. People tell me that my success has caused the insecurity and feelings of powerlessness to rise up in him. That may be true. <P>I needed to make a decision that would benefit myself and my children. Both kids agree 100% that divorce is the best thing because they can no longer stand their dad. That is pretty sad.<P>Anyway, just had to comment and felt I couldn't do so without letting you know something about my situation as well. <P>Please take care of yourself. Verbal abuse can leave you off-center and confused until you rise above it to see what is really occurring in the relationship.

Dear Hopefulheart:<P>I'm sad that your relationship is having to end in divorce. But I completely understand. Believe me--I've considered it many times. In fact my mindset at times has been to "hang in there" until the kids are grown, then look at divorce or at least separation. It's hard at this point to imagine spending the rest of my life with someone who is trapped in abuse and control rather than "becoming one" in a marital relationship with me. I have had to just release my W to God, pray, do my part to confront the abuse, then wait to see what happens.<P>I think your last statement says it best--that abuse leaves you really confused and off balance until you realize what is going on. Then, when you do see what is going on, it can leave you with a hopeless feeling that unless this person changes (which seems impossible) there is no hope for the relationship. On a positive note, taking action--as you're doing--does empower you to take charge of your life and not continue to live in misery.<P>Your mention of withdrawing from counseling sounds familiar. My W and I have been to two different counselors together and she immediately quits when I bring up issues about her. An abuser just can't see that they have any issues.<P>I pray you can dry those tears and move on to a life of joy, dignity, and self-respect as it was intended to be. I'll pray for your kids too. They're victims and don't deserve this.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Were either of you surprised at Patricia Evans considering verbal abuse a "male" thing? I have to admit that I was annoyed a little at this. My W fits all the descriptions in the book except the physical abuse part and so I wondered why she would assume that most abuse is by men. Both of my daughters (ages 15 & 12) are taking on the abusive characteristics which has included verbal abuse, violence, and physical abuse of me, my W and each other.

Hi Gogie,<P>Thanks for your thoughtful and supportive response to my post. I really appreciate your understanding.<P>You know, I can see where you would feel upset that Patricia Evans only addresses the male abuser and not the female abuser. I can assure you it goes both ways. I'm certain I have met some myself. <P>As I thought more about your situation, I wondered if it is also very isolating for you in terms of the people you know. If we are a society that only really acknowledges male abuse, then how safe would it be to share your experiences with others? I would think that it would be difficult. Just a thought.<P>You know, it is amazing for me to see how far I have come in terms of this abuse issue. I didn't say in my first post but I had to quit a part-time job I loved and held for 3 years so I could cope with the downhill trend of my relationship. The stress and grief was so intense because my h started to pick fights with me while I was getting ready for work on a regular basis. I would have to pull myself together from crying before I got to work. I work in a people profession so that was a hard thing for me to do. <P>You know, quitting did actually turn out to be a blessing in disguise because it freed me up to do the emotional work that had to be done about my current relationship. <P>One day in March, I took Evan's book off my bookshelf, reviewed the checklist of abusive experiences, and fully faced that 7 out of 10 applied to me. Then, the next morning, I woke my daughter up and asked her to use that same checklist. She picked the same 7 out of 10. Then she told me about a dream she had before I woke her up. In this dream we were leaving her dad and going to live with his parents. However, her dad had to drive her there and he was yelling at her the whole time and she couldn't escape. <P>What really makes me sad about you and your children, Gogie, is that they are identifying with their mom and acting like she does. That says a lot about females being just as likely as males to learn and act out abusive behavior. After hearing that, I am so thankful my children have turned away from their father's ways. I consider myself very lucky indeed.<P>Gogie, please take good care of yourself, ok? I look forward to future posts from you. Seems we both could use the support huh?<P> <BR>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Thanks for your response. Yes we can support one another. I believe that is one way in which we are healed (or at least cope).<P>I do feel really isolated within my family. My W has effectively convinced my daughters to stay away from me emotionally. I can't even hug or kiss them without them pulling away. They can't say or even write on cards that they love me. Emotionally, I have lost my two daughters and my wife. I have had to grieve that loss over and over during the last few years. That's especially difficult to deal with today--my 26th wedding anniversary. Last night, W blew up about my youngest daughter using the internet. "You should have never let her on it in the first place" was her tirade to me. This morning, she's cold as ice. I gave her a card. My youngest asked if I was going to get her mother flowers. W said "no thanks". I'm going to continue to do the right thing even though it's hard.<P>Thanks to you and Renae for your support!

Dear Gogie,<P>It must be rough today with your anniversary and all. Hang in there. The day will soon be over. Let me know what happened ok?<P>Today has been uneventful in terms of my husband and I. I went to work, he went to work. When I got home from work and grocery shopping, he had left me a note saying that he went to the beach. <P>One thing though: He addressed the note about where he went "honey" and signed it "Love you" <P>This contradicts what he has been saying to me for the past several months. He told me he didn't love me, in fact. And on Monday when I asked him if he wanted the marriage, he said no. This is what I mean by confusing. Do you get mixed messages Gogie? In the past, this used to make me crazy. He'd throw abuse at me one minute, and act like everything was fine the next. Now that I have made my decision about leaving, I no longer fall into the "hope" trap, and get hurt over and over again.<P>We sleep in separate rooms and that was very difficult for the first month. Now I'm adjusting.<P>Anyway, all for now.

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>It turns out my W and I had a "pleasant" day. We went out to lunch and later out to dinner with the kids. Things were pleasant--no blow-ups, etc. However, I never know when the next blow-up will be. Yes, I too get many mixed messages.<P>Even though things were "pleasant" they are still strained. My W just never feels like a safe person to be around. We can never have an authentic conversation with each other. I can sit down with other women in the office environment and feel very comfortable talking about things, even "deep" issues. Don't get me wrong, I'm very careful to make sure my work relationships are appropriate. It's just that I feel safe talking with some close friends around the office. However, at home I never feel safe. For example, we've gone through some major reorganizations in the office lately. This has been very stressful on me. However, I've shared nothing at home. In the past when I've shared regarding issues at work I've gotten "be thankful you have a job", "you're never happy about things".<P>No too long ago I opened up and mentioned to my W that I was going to have an MRI test to see if I had a kidney problem. She immediately said "you've made yourself sick by losing too much weight too fast". No support, just condemnation. (No too long ago, I took off 55 pounds and actually feel really good because of it. I'm in the best shape I've been in for years--healthy weight, exercise, etc.) By the way, the MRI turned out ok--the suspected problem was not there.<P>I'll say a prayer for you tonight alone. I'm sorry it's come to this for you, but it sounds like for the best. Don't get confused by those mixed messages. Stay true to what you know is right.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Just a test. Having problems with my reply going through

Well Gogie, I had written you a "novel" but now it is lost!!! This forum would not let me post that message saying there was no registered user by my user name. Now it works.<P>Due to time, I'm going to have to give you a condensed version of what I tried to post. Sorry. <P>The points I made in a nutshell were:<BR> <BR>1. glad you got through the day yesterday. Glad my anniversary is not until October. Don't know how I'm going to deal with father's day yet.<P>2. I can relate to little support around medical issues. I've been through two medical emergencies - both ectopic pregnancies. with the first one, my h refused to get up to go with me to the hospital. Said he was too tired. Went to see me hours later. Said I must have some curse on me because I hadn't forgiven someone and now they were getting me back. Real helpful. The second time, he did go with me to the hospital but condemned me for being a poor parent to our two children while we were waiting for the surgery. I got so mad I wanted him to leave.<P>3. About 9 years ago, I lost 70lbs. because my husband swore that if I would lose weight, he would find me desirable and no longer want porn. When that didn't happen, I was so disappointed. Other men were interested but he wasn't. I had to make a choice - have an affair with those that were interested to get my emotional needs met or gain the weight back. I gained the weight back. Wasn't ready to give up on my marriage at the time.<P>4. Currently, due to extreme pressure from my husband's family, He has asked that I don't file for a divorce until next week so he can speak with his minister one time. He has been avoiding this suggestion from them until the pressure got too great. It is for them, not him, that he is following through. Why would he. After all, he told a therapist last month that he is "practically perfect." Those were his words, if you can believe that!!!<P>Anyway, got to go for now.<BR>Talk to you later.

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Again, it sounds like you are making the right decision. I know the pain you must be feeling. But the continued pain of this relationship sounds a lot worse. What is he going to accomplish talking to a minister?<P>I'm thankful for a sister like you to share with. It doesn't make the pain go away. But it makes coping a little easier.<P>Take care of yourself! Your health and well-being are important even if they're not important to him. Especially take care of your emotional needs. Find people you can share with. YOU'RE IMPORTANT! YOU'RE WORTH IT!<P>One of the greatest difficulties for me has been to have someone to share with. I regularly go to a counselor who is my primary support person and she has been supportive and helpful. I also talk to a pastor from time-to-time. However, the in-between times are lonely. Nearly two years ago I spent most weekends alone crying, sobbing, grieving over the situation I'm in. It was the worst time of my life. I'm think I'm past that, but still feel quite alone many times. I don't know if I've just grown accustomed to things (and built an emotional wall) or if I'm really better. One of my goals is to find someone I can confide in more regularly in order to take care of me.<P>I heard a message from Charles Stanley early Sunday morning called "Our Unmet Needs". It really spoke to me. Check out <A HREF="http://www.intouch.org" TARGET=_blank>www.intouch.org</A> <P>God indeed promises to meet our needs. Oftentimes, he does this through people. I'm going to pray for you and me to have Him meet our needs in a way that only He can.<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Gogie

Dearest Gogie,<P>It DOES feel like the right decision for me, BUT... it hasn't always been that way. I believed in my heart that there was always hope (My user name says it all!!) and that if I just tried a little more, wasn't so sensitive like my h said, and focused on other parts of my life, things would get better. I stopped asking him to change things that made me unhappy and I forgave him for so much. I just let it all go. <P>I felt very alone and unhappy in my marriage but had a good career and friends and coworkers who praised me a lot. I got my emotional needs met elsewhere. I stopped requiring my husband to be there for me. I realized he just couldn't do it. (Maybe I built my own emotional wall to cope!) I became successful and happy in a unhappy marriage. <P>My children, on the other hand, carried the pain and became very damaged by it. Then they started acting out. (Your kids are too.) One of the first things I dealt with in a family therapy session was my guilt about that. I felt I had abandoned them. They assured me I hadn't, but I had to make peace with that within myself.<P>You know what? Over time, the happier I became, the more unhappy my h became. He disliked my appearance, the way I parented, that I only had a part-time job and not a full-time, how I did the laundry, etc...the list goes on and on. <P>His abuse escalated to the point where the pain of the relationship became greater than the pain of letting it go. I never thought that would happen but it did. I also never thought I would have to leave my home for 3 days due to threats.<P>I have come to realize recently that leaving this relationship does provide me with the opportunity for happiness in the future.<P>You know, Gogie, I am concerned about you and your situation. Your statement about not knowing if you've just grown accustomed to things (built an emotional wall) or if you're really better, struck me. When I read that, it felt very sad for me. Like the pain is so great that you must build a wall to protect yourself. I did that too, but found other ways to get my emotional needs met. I don't think marriage is suppose to be that way. You sound so unhappy still. Deeply so. You know better than I do, how you feel. I am just sharing my impression after reading what you wrote.<P>What do others say about your situation? I know you have a strong faith in GOD. Does that keep you in the marriage, or is it something else?<P>What do you want for yourself? Will you stay in your relationship always or are you unsure? Do you set limits with your wife around the abuse? <P>That will help me understand how to support you. I want to be there for you, no matter what your plans are.<P>The best to you, always