How are you doing?

haven't heard from you in a while

fill us in

wiftty

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
That about says it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Actually to quote Mr. Garcia "what a long, strange trip its been!" haha... Where to start?? OK - Divorce was final April 24, 2001. She left a year before that. I tried and tried to save the marriage, but it wasn't to be. I spent the whole separation and a while after the divorce just being me. Dated here and there but nothing special. X got remarried 8 months after our divorce was final - she started dating him 2 months after we separated. (hmmmm.... wonder why nothing I did worked to save the marriage? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Kept my chin up and acted as a mature loving husband the whole way through. She couldn't understand how I did not get evil or mean. I don't miss her at all anymore, but I do say a prayer for her life every now and then (and for her family). The end of Chapter 1.

Played around on the Internet dating scene for a while. Not really "looking". Open up Chapter 2 of my life! A woman emailed me as a dare by her friend. I was online so I emailed back instantly. I've never looked back since! That was 1.5 years ago. Trish is her name. She too was married and divorced for 4 years now. She has two absolutely adorable little girls, 9 and 10. Everything has just come so naturally for all of us - while we waited for a while for me to meet the girls, when I met them, it did not take long for us to bond together.

That is the good news!
Now for the not so good news...

About 6 months ago we began talking about marriage in a very lighthearted and comfortable way. Deep down I knew I found someone special the first time we met in person. (since we met, we've talked on the phone every night for at least an hour! We live about 2 hrs away from each other). The biggest problem is the distance - We both want to be with each other all the time, but being a single mom (and a great one at that), she dedicates a lot of time to the girls. I'll be honest, at times I've had to take the back seat and a little jealousy came up in me. But overall I've been pretty good about it.

Then in January a few things happened and my "fears" of being hurt and left again really took hold. While I still planned on asking her to marry me, the fear was guiding me to drag my feet. Basically I pulled back and became a little self-centered, well let me be honest here - a lot self-centered. I didn't pay attention to how she was being "drained" by the girls, by some health issues, and by a few other life situations. Then about a month ago, she asked about marriage again, out of the blue. Instead of being honest and telling her I was scared, I pushed it off on us not seeing enough of each other and me needing more time.

This really upset her (although she did not tell me at the time). Two weeks ago she said she wasn't sure if she still loved me and she wanted a break to decide. I was devastated and totally taken off-guard. BUT as soon as my defensiveness wore off, it ALL came tumbling down on me. How I let my fears take control.

Up until January, she was writing and telling me I was a gift from God in her life - How she never loved someone this much before. And I was saying the same things. Now I haven't heard a word.

The worst part is that my X said the same thing when we separated "I need a break". So while I know these are two entirely different women and situations, the fear that I might lose her has really beaten me down. I really have not reached out to her until yesterday when I sent a long letter to her. It wasn't to ask her to come back, it was only to show her what was in my heart and why I had acted the way I did. When we last spoke she was VERY cold to me and said she wasn't sure if she wanted more children (since I have none) and if she would move away and leave everything for me, and that the drive to see me was taking a huge toll on her over the past few months. In the letter I explained that I knew going into this that there maybe a chance we wouldn't have any more children and that was fine with me, because a child is a gift from God and no one has any right to think they are entitled to kids (that is just what I believe), and that I would move for her (I own a business that is about halfway between the two of us, so the commute for me would just be in a different direction). BUT most of all in the letter I just tried to reaffirm how much I love her and am dedicated to our relationship and to making it work. To me it now seems like the fears have jumped from me, to her and I don't know if there is anything I can do to calm them down in her...

All I've been doing is praying and praying (and writing and writing, BUT not sending!)...

I know that the best thing is to pull back and let her think, but we all know how hard that is to do sometimes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm just trying my best to let God sort it out - If I believed she already knew what I wrote in my letter to her, I never would have sent it - But I don't think she knew much of what is in my heart...

The worst part is that if it doesn't workout, I won't have just lost "one", I will have lost "three", for those two girls have become such a part of my life. The they have taken to me, and I to them has been just so natural... This is even with their father still in their lives (which I don't have a problem with at all. And in fact when it comes time to get married, I fully intend to reach-out to him, to let him know that I'm approaching raising the girls as a 'team' - not a competition between him and me - because that is how I feel... The more people that can love the girls the better, right?).

I'm sure you didn't think you would get all this when you asked, but there it is - Mike in a nutshell... (maybe I should be in nut house!)

How about you?

Mike

wiftty,

haha... I just read your tagline on your post... Mine is similar and is the same as was in my high school yearbook - "If adversity builds character, WHAT a personality I must have!"

Mike,

It's good to see you post again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How wonderful and how sad at the same time...

Take time to sort things out..for both of you..
as you know Marriage is a HUGE STEP!! and if you love each other..you can work it out if you both try..

Something to think about, when you start having fears, talk to her about them..if you withdraw like you've done..it will make her question just how much you love her..and if she can trust you to be open and honest with her..

Just remember if she can't trust you now to be open and honest about how you feel inside, how can she trust you later?? How can she trust that you will "eventually" be able to share your fears with her when you can't now??

So you've given her a break and you've contacted her again..so take it slowly..if she's willing to date again..and don't be afraid to share your fears with her..even if they seem unreasonable..

Also know that you don't have to talk about them until you've figured out what triggered the fear..
and if something is bothering you and your not ready to talk...let her know that you have somethings on your mind, that you have to work through, and you'll talk to her about it once you figure it out..that way, she'll know it's not about her..but something inside you..

ThornedRose,
Boy all my friends are still here! Not sure if that is good or bad? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes I know I should have talked about my fears, I guess part of me was worried that I'd hurt her, in that she would think I was comparing her to my X (or that I was still thinking about my X). Because it really wasn't anything to do with my X, it had to do with my fear of getting hurt again.

The first time around, when I got engaged to my X, I witnessed her change right before my eyes. I kept a daily journal back then, so when I read what I was thinking and feeling, it is obvious that I knew something was up. But I was young and I wrote it off to "cold feet".

So what I've discovered in the past few weeks/months is that the simple act of getting engaged triggered some powerful fears.

But you are right - I should have talked to her about it. Now I have to wait and see if God brings us back together... It's very obvious that I'll be learning about relationships for the rest of my life (and making my fair share of mistakes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Thanks!
Mike

SoTired2000:

--Boy all my friends are still here! Not sure if that is good or bad? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> --

TR- Well, I'm still here by choice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Divorced and engaged-

yet I'm still learning about relationships-- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I have been through my own set of fears as I began dating and yes, even with the engagement..
it triggered a bunch of my own fears too..and some of his own..

I question everything..I journal most all of my thoughts..and try to figure out what the trigger was..and once I figure that out..I talk to him about it..because I know.."He can't read my mind"
and I've learned if I can't share them with him..
how is that treating him with respect? How is that being open and honest with him? how is that really building a relationship based on truth?

We went to a Marriage Seminar last summer at our church..which was difficult for me..(no we weren't engaged at the time) but we felt we could learn something from it..I learned a lot about myself..and God's view of me..as a gift from Him to the man I marry..something I'd never thought about myself..I cried for two of the three days of the seminar..as all of it soaked it..

We also went through 13 weeks of pre-marriage counseling..which taught communication, conflict resolution skills, Emotional Needs, Role relationships, Sex in marriage..and many other things..He even had us do a personality test and discussed the positives and negatives of them in a marriage..he also gave us many books to read --

As we went through the marriage counseling each section had questions we had to really think about and answer..and then we had to go back the next week and discuss our answers with the pastor
and each other..so nothing is hidden..

Something else we had done before we got engaged was take a course on Teamwork in Marriage..which we gained much insight from as well..

If you would like copies of any of the things we went over in the counseling let me know..I got another copy of it from the pastor so that I can share it with others..or any of the things from the teamwork in marriage book..or even any of the info from the Marriage Seminar.. I'd gladly share it with you..so you can read and learn what types of questions and such to ask yourself..about relationships...I can get it and e-mail it to you..

--I guess part of me was worried that I'd hurt her, in that she would think I was comparing her to my X (or that I was still thinking about my X).

TR- In reference to this..this was disrespectful of her..saying you don't trust her to handle her own feelings..be they hurt, or happiness...and you
were trying to read her mind..something you should know by now isn't possible..and in a way treating her like a child.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but your fear..is reasonable to an extent..because
yes, you might get hurt again..but you will survive..

I know you know this...but a gentle reminder--
Women are human..just like men are..and they will
at some point hurt us..but the thing we need to
look at when this happens is--did they hurt us intentionally? Or did they hurt us because of our own insecurities and thoughts? and if it was intentional..then maybe we need to re-evaluate the
relationship---if it was because of our own insecurities and thoughts..how can we grow in this area within ourselves? and challenge our own thoughts? How is God trying to get me to change to be more like Him???

ThornedRose,

As you used to be, you once again are a voice of wisdom to me! Kinda shaking me up and forcing me to look at things from a different perspective. And that afterall, is how we all learn. So thank you.

Seems like I still have a lot to learn - I guess I just under-estimated the amount of hurt that still existed in both of us (I think she did as well). She always told me that since she was divorced about 2 years longer than me, that her feelings and issues were something of the past. So maybe she has been fooling herself as well.

What can I learn right now? Well I guess how to exist in limbo. When my X and I separated, deep down I had a gut feeling that "it" was over. But still I had to do everything that was in my heart to save the marriage. And I did. This time with Trish, she didn't "end" it, she just said she needed time to think - that she didn't feel 'in love' with me, but that she couldn't "feel" anything right at that point.

It is now going on the fourth week of no contact (other than 2 very short emails) and I find myself still missing her as much as the first day. I wrote one letter and I've sent one or two cards, but that is all the contact we've had.

Even when my X left, I was able to be joyful at times. This time I feel like a sad-sack - Like some broken-hearted schoolboy. Oh brother...

Anything you would like to send me, I'd love to receive. I had planned all along that when we got engaged, we would go to counseling together. But maybe like you wrote, going before we even get engaged might not be a bad idea.
[kriskross_88@yahoo.com]

Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for telling me like it is when I need to hear it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Mike

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: SoTired2000 ]</small>

SoTired2000:

--Kinda shaking me up and forcing me to look at things from a different perspective. And that afterall, is how we all learn. So thank you.--

TR- LOL...Kinda reminds me of something I wrote a few years ago..about how when we walk away from God it's like being a coin stuck between the lining and inside portion of a purse..the purse has to be turned upside down and shaken around in order to get the money out..God does the same with us--we are never to far out of his reach..but
He does have to sometimes shake us around and turn us upside down to get the best out of us..

--Seems like I still have a lot to learn -

TR- As we all do!!! Even myself..

--I guess I just under-estimated the amount of hurt that still existed in both of us (I think she did as well). She always told me that since she was divorced about 2 years longer than me, that her feelings and issues were something of the past. So maybe she has been fooling herself as well.--

TR- The thing about hurt though, is it can't really be dealt with until it's recognized and acknowledged..and the only way to see it..is to be reminded of it..so that you can say..Okay, this is what I am feeling..why do I feel this way?
And what can I do to help me work through this and grow past it??

You know about my past..and the abuse..and how I thought for years that just simply acknowledging that I'd been abused was enough..but it wasn't until I really looked at how much the abuse hurt me and how deeply it effected all of my thoughts, actions and everything..was I able to come to terms with it all and truly begin to heal..

When I was able to put a name to what I felt inside--I was able to look at it in all honesty and deal with it..but, I wasn't able to do that until I was put into a situation that made me feel the same emotions and hurts..and really wanted to get past it..so they didn't 'rule' my life..was I able to grow--and truly heal..

So if, you've both avoided intimate relationships since your divorces..you haven't allowed yourself
to face those hurts, fears and pains again..you've
only pushed them onto the back burner of the stove
to be dealt with later or not at all..but because of your relationship with Christ, He won't allow you to ignore them forever..because to feel even pain..shows that you are still alive...and have a life to live for and in Him..

Imagine how much Pain he felt being betrayed by his friends and loved one's..yet, even in that, he still reached out to others..desiring to be close with them..and even NOW...even the many times we have turned away from Him...He still desires to have that closeness with us..Even in His hurt, He reaches out to us..

--What can I learn right now? Well I guess how to exist in limbo.

TR- What's limbo?? Isn't that just waiting on life to happen to us?? When we were created to live life??

--This time with Trish, she didn't "end" it, she just said she needed time to think - that she didn't feel 'in love' with me, but that she couldn't "feel" anything right at that point.-

TR- Okay, so why does she have to feel 'in love' with you to be your friend and spend time with you? And it sounds like she's feeling numb..I've been there, and it's not a fun place to be...

So can you feel pain?? if so, as I said before it shows your still alive..so If you can feel pain, then it also reasons that you can feel joy, and happiness..so where do you look for those things??
from others?? or being at peace within?? Does our happiness come from others?? or does our happiness come from Christ?? (as Christ brings peace to our lives) just something for you to ponder..

--It is now going on the fourth week of no contact (other than 2 very short emails) and I find myself still missing her as much as the first day. I wrote one letter and I've sent one or two cards, but that is all the contact we've had.--

TR- Okay, so what have you done for you lately??
Are you waiting around on her? or are you living your own life?? going out and doing things you enjoy doing??

--Even when my X left, I was able to be joyful at times. This time I feel like a sad-sack - Like some broken-hearted schoolboy. Oh brother...--

TR- but you wasn't able to feel those things at first right?? You had to learn to do things alone again..and how to have fun alone again..and now, your in the first stages of that seperation
again..so what did you learn about yourself before
that sparked you to get out and do things and live your life??

--Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for telling me like it is when I need to hear it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TR- Hey what are friends for?? to tell us like it is even when we don't want to hear it..even if it may cause us to hurt--they respect us enough to know we can handle the truth..no matter how painful. and as long as it's said in love, and respect, and is meant to help us..not tear us down..

I'll get that stuff together and e-mail it to you..so you can delete the e-mail address now if you want..

<small>[ June 10, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>SoTired2000:
--This time with Trish, she didn't "end" it, she just said she needed time to think - that she didn't feel 'in love' with me, but that she couldn't "feel" anything right at that point.-

TR- So can you feel pain?? if so, as I said before it shows your still alive..so If you can feel pain, then it also reasons that you can feel joy, and happiness..so where do you look for those things?? from others?? or being at peace within?? Does our happiness come from others?? or does our happiness come from Christ?? (as Christ brings peace to our lives) just something for you to ponder..

TR- Okay, so what have you done for you lately??
Are you waiting around on her? or are you living your own life?? going out and doing things you enjoy doing??

TR- but you wasn't able to feel those things at first right?? You had to learn to do things alone again..and how to have fun alone again..and now, your in the first stages of that seperation
again..so what did you learn about yourself before
that sparked you to get out and do things and live your life??
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It all came back to me yesterday. I went to spend some quiet time in church alone on my lunch break. While sitting there just thinking and praying, I heard a very soft voice...
The voice asked me "what was I afraid of?", and I said that I was afraid I would lose Trish or I would lose my love for her. The voice then said
so softly, "don't you trust me? Don't you trust that I have all the answers and that if you truly love Trish and it is my will that the two of you be together, don't you trust that I would keep your love for her safe until JUST the right time? Isn't 'love' what/who I am? You always say that love can conquer all - it is never-ending. Listen to your own words and believe"... Then it happened - I felt a calm come over me, a peace I've been running from for these past few weeks and these past few months.

See I kept telling myself and God that I was "giving it all over to Him", but I kept thinking of things "I" should do, or say, or write to her... JUST like I did through my separation.

It wasn't until I completely handed it over to Him that I allowed His peace to enter me and to begin to work in me. Yesterday I did the same thing. I still miss her and little thoughts keep popping up in my head, but I'm firm in my stance that I will live my life and wait for His guidance. Whether that be for a reunion with Trish or not.

So in answer to your questions above - I simply had to truly give up "my control" of the situation and let Him do His work - It's not like He needs MY help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Plus, I know that "control" is not a good thing to focus on... I learned that a long time ago...

But please continue to pray for me, for her, for us.

Thanks!
mike

SoTired2000:

---The voice asked me "what was I afraid of?", and I said that I was afraid I would lose Trish or I would lose my love for her.

TR- How could you lose your love for her?

Could it really be your afraid she will stop loving you? And you won't meet someone else and you will be alone? and so ultimately it's a fear of being alone?

Or we could go a step further..and ask..is it really a fear of not being lovable? That nobody will love you for who you are..as you are..faults and all? That unconditional love that no matter what..someone can see past all of the masks and all of the facades we put up, and they will desire to know US past all of those things and will love us anyway..

I think we ALL desire love like that, but we are so afraid to let down our guards and really open up and share the initimate details of ourselves..
and give someone a chance, and respect them enough to love us past all of those things..and to love them past all of those things..

I think we all have a fear of being known so intimatly by another..the way God knows us, yet, he loves us anyway..

--The voice then said so softly, "don't you trust me? Don't you trust that I have all the answers and that if you truly love Trish and it is my will that the two of you be together, don't you trust that I would keep your love for her safe until JUST the right time? Isn't 'love' what/who I am? You always say that love can conquer all - it is never-ending. Listen to your own words and believe"... --

TR- And your answer??

--Then it happened - I felt a calm come over me, a peace I've been running from for these past few weeks and these past few months.--

TR- Why would any of us run from that? Or was it more running from God??

--See I kept telling myself and God that I was "giving it all over to Him", but I kept thinking of things "I" should do, or say, or write to her... JUST like I did through my separation.--

TR- LOL...Not that this is funny, but it made me laugh..because I think WE ALL do this..we say okay
"I'm leaving it in Your hands Lord", but then we
get tired of waiting and doing nothing to move things along, we want an answer YESTERDAY!!! Not next month, not next year..we WANT IT NOW!!! So we take it back--and try to do it in our own strength..I'm just as guilty of this...and so it spoke to me--

--It wasn't until I completely handed it over to Him that I allowed His peace to enter me and to begin to work in me. Yesterday I did the same thing.--

TR- LOL, this is the same thing..not funny, but it spoke to me about things I do also..

"Trust in Lord with ALL thine Heart and Lean NOT on YOUR OWN understanding, but in all thy ways acknowlege Him and HE shall direct your paths"

Or in other words..If we keep trying to get ahead of God..were going to screw things up..

--I still miss her and little thoughts keep popping up in my head, but I'm firm in my stance that I will live my life and wait for His guidance. Whether that be for a reunion with Trish or not.--

TR- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'll have to share with you sometime something I also did..

--So in answer to your questions above - I simply had to truly give up "my control" of the situation and let Him do His work - It's not like He needs MY help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> --

TR- Had to laugh at this too...It's yet another reminder that I also needed..

--But please continue to pray for me, for her, for us.--

TR- This I can do...

ThornedRose,

You are right about "opening up to Trish". I NEVER was like that until very recently.

Amazingly, the information you emailed me hit me right between the eyes about this issue. See I'm a romantic, always was, always will be. Most men are not. Most "younger" women (think high school, college) go for the "dangerous and exciting" guys. So all my previous relationships almost to a one, all ended with me falling head-over-heels, then the girl deciding to end things for another guy (the "good guy syndrome"). [BTW: amazingly almost every one tried to "come back" after a few months or years - lol].

My point is that even though I kept getting hurt, time and time again I would open myself up to the next one. I'm a big believer in "nothing ventured, nothing gained". I tried to see each "new" relationship as having nothing to do with the last one, so it wouldn't be fair to this new person, if I didn't give all of myself to her.

Then came my Xwife. I did the same thing with her.. For a whole bunch of reasons she chose to leave too. WHY did this time cause me to begin to "fear"? I read in that article you sent that a spouse's role in a marriage is VERY powerful - it can be used to completely build up their partner (which is what is supposed to happen) or it can be abused and used to completely demolish their partner (which is what my X did to me). The way it was written in the article helped me realize why my divorce has effected me so deeply. She was the first and the only person I gave "everything" to - everything I was.

My X basically blamed every problem in her life on me. You all don't know me, but I am a good person - I really am - and I'm not trying to be immodest. 100% of the reason is that I try to live daily with God in my life - always have. My decisions and dealings with others are based entirely on my moral make-up.

Due to past sexual abuse and other issues in my X's life, she just did not have happiness in her life, along with a complete lack of self-esteem. So eventually that all got pushed on to me and hence the divorce. I hold no anger (or love) towards her, but I realize that the pain is still lingering in my life.

At first with Trish, I was opening up to her just like I did in the past, but the beginning of this year (January/February) she had a scare with breast cancer, and at the same time I found out my mother was going through the same thing. I had no one to turn to to talk about my fears of losing both these special women in my life, so I held it in - after all, I had to be strong for Trish AND for my mom (that was what I was thinking). I was SO scared of losing them. It really shook me. Then once both issues turned out to be just "scares", I could not shake that fear and it effected my relationship with Trish...

TR, thank you for that article, it was a great read because it confirmed just about everything I have always believed in marriage. And the interesting part is that it showed how Trish and I are on the same page with about 99% of marital issues. (Which is why this is so perplexing to me... why we are where we are at right now..)

TR, I miss her alot. And it is taking everything in me to not call her or email her or write her... I know that is NOT what God wants me to do right now. I need strength to stand still and wait and listen for His words... To work on the other areas of my life. Knowing this is one thing, "continually" accepting it is an entirely other story... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Now to end with some irrationality... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Humor me here: Is she thinking about me? She never "broke-up" with me, she just told me she needed "a break" (about 3.5 weeks ago)... Then she emailed me a few weeks back that she was going to call soon - that we needed to talk. When we last spoke she told me that she had a lot of decisions to make (ie. To have more kids with me, to move away from her family for me, to invest the time to drive to see me...), but she never spoke to me directly about these issues - so she never knew what was in my heart. That is why I wrote her and sent a letter last week explaining that I did NOT need to have children - that me moving to her was not "out of the question", it just needed to be talked about. And that since she has 2 children that take up much of her time, me coming to see her more often would not be a problem... So now I'm wondering if she was going to use those issues as "reasons" to end "us" instead of admitting that she is mad at me and afraid to get hurt again like she did in her first marriage...

Part of me wonders if she is just too afraid to hurt me, to call and break-up with me... Is that possible for someone to do? After a year and a half together - of basically NO real problems at all in our relationship? I know these thoughts do NO good and are just a waste of my energy, but still they persist... Even if I got an email from her saying that she needed more time, it is better than not knowing anything. But then I don't want to pressure her either...

I know deep down this is what God wants of me - He wants my complete faith in Him and not to meddle. Besides what would I be doing differently right now anyways?

Don't mind me - just getting some irrational thoughts off my chest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't want to keep talking about it with my friends and family. Besides, if I don't have any answers, neither will they...

oh brother...
Mike

They may not have answers, but they could offer wisdom..

And you do need a place to share your thoughts and feelings...so do you journal?? Maybe that would help you not be so overwhelmed--

I'll e-mail my thoughts on some of the other issues...