(((((Gogie)))))) I wish I had been here earlier to catch your post! However, Hopefulheart has spoken well! <P>The therapy was TOUGH but good. I need to give it more thought. <P>It's been a busy night here. I just want you to know I checked this site before going to bed and am praying for you, Gogie!!....I'm up late due to a storm but it seems the worst is over now and my family has fallen asleep. I need to rest the few hours I have left, so I'll try to write more tomorrow. Just want you to know, Gogie, I hear you, I feel for what this night has been like for you, and pray .....<P>God, please help Gogie sleep peacefully tonight, pour out your comforting, healing, refreshing spirit upon him, hold him secure in your love. And when he awakes, begin to give him more knowledge and wisdom to guide his path. Our faith and trust is in You! I pray for Gogie's family--his W, the oldest D, and the younger D. God, I thank you that out of the whole mix of people on earth, Gogie, Hopefulheart and I have met here! What precious friends they are! In Christ's name, Amen.<P>BIG HUGS FOR GOGIE!!!!<P>BIG HUGS FOR HOPEFULHEART TOO!!!!<BR>

Dear Hopefulheart & Renae,<P>Thanks so much for the words of encouragement! They really do mean a lot. I'm still sort of numb today; thinking about what happened last night. Everyone is pretty quiet around the house today.<P>Hopefulheart, to answer your question: I think my D is asking for help. I think she's tired of being abused by her mom and sister. The only way she knows how to respond is to abuse back. Isn't that really where all abusers are--trapped by their own feelings of inadequacy and helplessness? The only way they know to deal with it is by controlling, abusing others.<P>The options I've thought about include letting them know that I can't take this anymore. It's time to sell the house. This would create a crisis of sorts--maybe just what is needed for my W to wake up to the fact that there really is a problem here. As I've thought more about that, however, I feel that all this would do is separate me from them. I would be away from the abuse, but my two girls would still be right in the middle of it. Then, who's their 'helpful witness'? Doesn't seem too viable.<P>Renae, I'm thankful you made it thru last night. It sounds like it was exhausting, but maybe a breakthrough in terms of the counselors seeing just what your H is like. Hope today has been better.<P>Love and support to both of you,<BR>Gogie

Hi Gogie,<P>You've been through the wringer haven't you? No wonder you are so numb. I feel for you, Gogie. It will probably take some time to recover. <P>And maybe once the numbness wears off and you've gathered your strength again, you can begin looking for some new solutions. <P>You've thought about telling your wife you can't take it anymore and want to sell the house but feel there is too much to lose by creating a crisis. You're right, there could be some pretty big losses. You may lose your wife, your house, your identity as a married person, your sense of security, among other things. You risk having your wife break the final thread of hope you have that things can turn around. <P>It would hurt deeply, Gogie. <P>On the other hand, you could heal from those losses, reclaim a new identity, re-establish new relationships with your children, and the opportunity to be happy. The gains come after the losses have begun to heal.<P>Only you can decide when enough is enough. One thing is certain, however. I will be here for you no matter what. You can count on it!<P>I wonder if there is anything to gain in all of this? I believe the Chinese symbol for crisis, is opportunity. <P>A thought occurred to me after reading your response to my question about your D. Is it possible that you and your D could go to counseling together? If she wants help and you want help at least the two of you would be supported.<P>I've been thinking about the ways in which children respond to abuse - they either identify with the aggressor (If you can't beat them, join them) OR they run from it and swear they will never do that to their own children. They remain peaceful and loving (although deeply wounded by the abuse and prone to depression and low self-esteem problems.)<P>Given the choice, I don't think children would choose to be in an abusive environment, but when they are, they find ways to survive. Sometimes that may mean joining with the abuser. Not because they want to, but because that is the only way to survive. I don't know how they decide which way to go. It's kinda sad, none-the-less.<P>Anyway, thats all for now. Hope to hear from you soon.<P>hopefulheart<P>

Dear Hopefulheart,<BR>Thanks for the letter of encouragement. Your being there for me means a whole lot!<P>Unfortunately, I don't think there's any chance of either of my daughters going to counseling. Counseling has been ridiculed incessantly in our household. I'm continually harassed and ridiculed because I go to counseling. This is primarily my W's doing. She is not about to go to counseling. In the past when she's gone (for short periods of time) she quickly withdraws when ANY attention is given to issues she needs to work on. She is just so insecure and helpless within herself that she refuses to even consider an idea where she appears weak or has something to work on. Thus, everything is my fault--my problem. And yet, when I go to counseling, I'm ridiculed. Given this, I'm not sure what, other than a crisis, will move my W to seek help. Sad...<P>Again, thanks to you and Renae for being there. It means a lot.<P>That's all for now,<BR>Gogie

Darn, Gogie, I was hoping you wouldn't say that about the counseling idea with your daughter <P>I guess I was hoping... (you know me and hope <P>Well, you know, even a crisis may not turn things around for you. Your wife may dig her feet in more firmly. That's what my h did. Telling him I was done and wanted to separate didn't change a thing in terms of him wanting to deal with our marriage. <P>That's the risk involved in creating a crisis. If you're wanting it to be a wake-up call and a complete turn around, it could be very disappointing. On the other hand, maybe not. I can't say that your w is going to react like my h. <P>It seems as if it is either - create the crisis and take the risk, or deal with the status quo. That's a tough one isn't it?<P>Don't you just hate this whole thing sometimes? <P>My h and I are really just roomates now. We barely talk. If we do, it's about the most basic everyday issues like what we're having for dinner and what our schedules are for the day. That's about it.<P>I notice some anger sometimes at him for not caring enough and letting 20 years go. There's always pain underneath that. <P>Presently I'm concentrating on a self-care plan to help me cope: Walking on the beach 4 or 5 times per week, journaling, seeing at therapist 2 times per month, and of course, hanging out here with you! Thanks for being here Gogie!!<P>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>You kind of nailed it in terms of the crisis. No asurance that will do anything except create more heartache for me. If I had to predict, I would say it would make things worse.<P>Like you, my W and I are just roommates. Never any deep discussions about important issues. Any attempt to go there and she shifts to the parent-child mentality. At that point, it's over.<P>What I do feel comfortable with at this point is a self-help program similar to yours. Seeing my counselor (about once a month), physical fitness (this summer - biking), visiting friends, gardening, enjoying music.<P>Last night, I joined the church orchestra for the first time. Years ago, I got a degree in music in violin. I haven't played much in years, but haven't forgotten how and really enjoy it when I do. This will be a good emotional outlet for me. Of course having you as one of my "cyber sisters" REALLY helps! I appreciate it so much.<P>I'm sorry your H seems so indifferent about things. Have you filed your divorce papers yet? I'm still praying for you about that. It sounds like your self-help plan is a good one. Walks on the beach sound really soothing.<P>Hope you have a great day!<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Hi Renae,<P>I've been thinking about you and praying ever since the therapy session the other night. I hope you are at peace. I hope you have a peaceful, relaxing weekend planned ahead.<P>I'm looking forward to hearing how you're doing. As I said in my last message to Hopefulheart, I'm thankful to have you as my "cyber sister".<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Good morning Gogie,<P>Glad to hear you are reconnecting with your music and doing self-care. <P>If I didn't do the same, I would probably be depressed and in bed more often than not. Actually, there was a period of that for about a month once I moved to a seperate bedroom. Then I slowly came out of it and started to rebuid my life.<P>Now here I am, feeling better, with only minor periods of hurt and pain. When I was in that depression, I thought I would never find a way out. No color in my life only a dull gray.<P>Funny you should ask about the divorce papers. I woke up this morning committing to file them on Monday. I was set back in doing so because I got a freelance job this week. (I create indexes for a publisher of self-help books)<P>They are completely done but I must check them for accuracy before filing. <P>Hope your day is a good one!<P>hopefulheart

Renae,<P>Is everything ok? Hoping to hear from you soon.<P>hopeful

Well, I just spoke with my h before he went to work about filing the divorce papers. I told him I wanted to make sure and tell him before I did this. He said "thanks" Then, "I've been thinking about everything lately. I wish it could have worked out. I can see you are hurt and angry. I guess that won't happen for me until you move out." I told him things could have worked out in therapy and then I left the room and started crying. Then he went to work.<P>I knew this was going to be a painful step for me and it really is. I feel so much sadness right now. My only comfort is in knowing that it will pass in time.<P>I'll keep you updated. <P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Your self-care program reminded me of something that my counselor said a while back--'do some things to take care of yourself, like go fishing, go to the ballgame, etc. These can also be activities that your W and daughters may or may not be interested in. Invite them to participate. If they don't, it's their loss. Some day, they'll realize the opportunities that slipped by.'<P>So, the self-care program can serve two purposes--mainly to make some deposits to the love bank (one of Dr. Harley's terms) and in a subtle way confront the spouse with some choices. Both are positive.<P>Anyway, thanks for bringing this up. It's made me think...<P>By the way, how is your publishing business going?<P>Hopefulheart, I just read your post about informing your H about the divorce papers. I'm so sad for you. I know you must be feeling really low. Just keep in mind, it's not you. You are a beautiful, wonderful person who deserves some peace and happiness. Let me know how it goes today. I'll continue to pray for you.<P>Love and support,<BR>Gogie

Hi gogie,<P>I'm still feeling down right now but I'll get through it. It's a little difficult to concentrate and focus on what needs to get done today.<P>A good thing however: On Monday I am going for an important job interview with Hospice. It's a high paying job which I could really use. I have volunteered with them for 3 years and have a good reputation there but there are several very good candidates for this job. This weekend I will be preparing for this interview.<P>My publishing business is something I am still getting off the ground. I am writing and marketing booklets. This is an important area of my life and my future, financially. <P>My h has been pushing me to work hard in this business because as he said, "I want you to set yourself up because if you need money when you are gone, you will come to me for it and I will feel obligated" He may also hope for half the money in a divorce. I don't know.<P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>I'm praying for you to feel an uplift since you are so down right now. I know your heart is breaking and mine aches for you.<P>Best wishes for your Hospice interview next week and I hope your publishing business really takes off. I'm really hoping these areas of your life will be successful. Continue to feel good about yourself and that you are doing the right thing.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Hello Hopefulheart and Gogie!<P>Thank you for the kind words, thoughtfulness, and prayers for me. Looks like I have missed out on some good talks here. But I've read and caught up now! <P>Wow!...I can sure relate to all your lives are like.<BR>All I can add is that I'm "not going back", only forward.<BR>That thought gives me tremendous hope! <P>I think I should have paid the hairdresser yesterday for her conversation with me, cuz it served to soothe my mind after the stress of therapy! It is just good being with a normal person for three hours and feel that person treat me with respect, kindness, etc.!! <P>Yes, a crisis--to do it or not to do it, that is the question!!! heehee!...<P>well, as long as he comes to therapy right now I will hold off on the crisis. After this last session, he MAY not go back, I'm not sure. Today he said he wants to talk to me, but we couldn't fit a time in yet...(I don't look forward to it) <P>I haven't had a time to call the therapists back as they requested either(too much business and H is around to listen). I'm wondering what she's thinking after she saw how he really is!!! He was really wound up from business, etc. so she got to see him under pressure (not a pretty sight)-- angry, controlling, verbally abusive (to me and therapists!), etc.--the whole thing!!!.... Man!! I wish I knew what they are thinking but I sensed they were shocked! I made it thru and still feel glued together!!<BR>Three years ago if I had gone through that warfare, I'd have been in 50 pieces!! Thank God for knowledge gained, growth and strength!!<P>Well...gotta run here...<P>YOu are in my thoughts & prayers!!<P>((((((((Warm Hugs to Gogie & HOpefulheart!)))))))),<P>~your cybersister,<BR> Renae<P>

Dear Renae,<P>I'm glad the therapists were shocked. Maybe now they'll know what they're dealing with. I think you hit on a theme here--we're going to move forward with hope in our hearts!<P>Happiness for Renae & Hopefulheart,<BR>Gogie

Dear Gogie and Renae,<P>Even though you are both probably asleep by now, I still need a place to go with what I am feeling.<P>It feels strange to do what I am doing - preparing for a divorce. In the past I have always tried and tried and tried, believing it would work. Now I'm closing the final door on the trying.<P>I remember saying to you, beware, it's going to be hard when I file those papers. Well, that day is almost here and it is HARD. I've been crying off and on all day today. I questioned myself about the tears -what are they for? <P>They are not about wanting to resume my relationship with my husband as it was. The old relationship hurts too much to bare. He is unable to join me in establishing joint agreements, and rebuilding our marriage. <P>My tears are about putting that marriage to rest and letting go of that part of my life. Half of my life. Letting go of my home too - the one I have lived in for 19 years and the plans that were made to add on to it. There are so many losses involved here. Suddenly, being in the same room with him causes me grief. <P>Father's Day is almost here and I don't know how I will deal with that. I can't say he's a good father because he hasn't been for a very long time, if ever. Celebrating feels awkward and unnatural now. <P>My life is in transition and nothing fits anymore. The old rules don't apply, and the new ones haven't been written yet. <P>I imagine the next couple of days will be hard for me. Bare with me ok?<P>Talk with you soon and thanks for being here.<P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>I'm so sad for you and your grief. I know this must be really hard for you--the grieving process has to be the hardest thing we go thru.<P>The last couple of years have been similar for me. Even though I'm not yet to the divorce stage, I have lost my W and two daughters. I've had hours and hours of bitter tears over this. Grieving a loss is SOOO hard!<P>I'll be praying for you today. I hope you can just make it thru the day and weekend as you begin the process of bearing your loss and moving on with your life. Know that you are not alone. Friends are here to help bear the burden.<P>Grieving for you,<BR>Gogie

Thanks Gogie,<P>Well, I made it through the day. A walk and then prep for my interview Monday. More of the same tomorrow. <P>I feel better after I forced myself to climb out of the hole I was falling into. I didn't want to walk but knew I would feel better afterwards, and I did. Getting out of the house helped a lot.<P>Hope your day went well. What are you doing for father's day? That's a tricky one isn't it? Holidays get me.<P>Here's wishing you a HAPPY FATHER'S DAY !!!!<P>hopefulheart<P>

Hi Gogie and Renae,<P>Well, I'm feeling even better now. I got a reminder from my h just now, about why I am proceeding with the divorce. <P>I just had a brief interaction that went like this:<P>He said, "Hi baby" I said, "Hi baby?" <P>He then said, "Hi strange person, how are you strange person?, How are you strange person?, How are you strange person? I chose to ignore the question each time and moved on about my business, saying nothing. REALITY CHECK HERE! I forgot.<P>I now know another reason why I am having such a hard time. Because we have been in such withdrawl that there has been no abuse. <P>No relationship = no abuse.<P>No abuse = my forgetting and wanting to draw closer and missing him.<P>I need to remember this!!<P>What do you guys think?<P>Hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>You're right, no abuse = no relationship. So, your choices are this: no abuse & no relationship OR a relationship which is abusive. What a choice!<P>I can't believe what your H was saying: Hi baby...Hi strange person...SICK!<P>Yes Hopefulheart, I think you are making the right decision.<P>We took a day trip to the mountains today. There was a lot of abuse by my W of our daughters when we were trying to get ready to go. Then, the trip was fairly uneventful as far as any abuse. Then, when we get home, more abuse. This is what is so hard for me, do I jump in, confront the abuse and ruin the day or keep quiet, let the abuse go on, let my daughters suffer. The right answer is that I should confront the abuse. It's just hard...<P>I'm glad you made it thru the day. It sounds like you're ready for the interview on Monday. I wish you the very best in the interview.<P>Remember when things get hard, you are cared about even if it's thru cyberspace. I'll be saying a prayer for you tonight.<P>Love and best wishes from your cyberbrother,<BR>Gogie<p>[This message has been edited by Gogie (edited June 16, 2001).]