Yes, we'll see what Father's Day brings. Usually holidays are a mess around here. It's like they are sabatoged. I'm trying to stay positive...<P>Gogie

Dearest Gogie,<P>You're the best! <P>Thank you for validating my reality yesterday. As you know from living with an abuser, that doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's like a breath of fresh air.<P>It means a lot to me. <P>I've decided to write out a reminder list for the times when things are peaceful and I think, "maybe this can work out after all."<P>He has been so calm, gentle, and a couple of times, caring in his words. <P>As Evans would say, "The dragon was napping." He woke up yesterday and it wasn't a pretty sight! Old, familiar feelings came rushing back to me so quickly - the sick feeling in my stomach, hyper-alertness and preparing for more anger, wanting to run, and FEAR. I am thankful for those feelings because I needed to be reminded.<P>I'm sorry your wife ruins so much of your time together as a family. When you talk about how it goes, I sometimes am amazed. She sounds like someone who goes into abusive anger outbursts pretty easily. That must be so damaging to your spirit, Gogie. I'm sorry you are going through that. <P>I'm interested in hearing how your day went today. I'll check in later after dinner.<P>Stay well,<P>hopefulheart<P><BR>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>"Sleeping dragon" would describe the day. No big blowups so far. I received one card from my W which was lying on the kitchen table and another from my two daughters. The one from my daughters says "from" rather than "love".<P>Also, last weekend, I picked out some new clothes--some pants and a few shirts. At the time, my W put them on a credit card she has. She made a big deal at the time 'was I going to pay for the stuff'? Today, she indicated that it was a fathers day present. I'll still be paying since I'm the only one working.<P>Disappointed, yes. Surprised, no.<P>Gogie

Hi Gogie,<P>So Father's Day sounds like it wasn't real great, but not too bad either. Was it like, kinda blah?<P>Mine was so emotionally-laden that it surprises even me. An emotional roller coaster.<P>It started with my H going grocery shopping with me. Something he never does but he wanted me to show him how to use the versatel machine so we did that first. On the way a fight errupted over our marriage. Now, I can't remember what about because I am too upset now over what just happened. <P>Anyway, today we spent too much time together and talked about the fact that I am filing the D papers tomorrow. I wanted him to know what I am doing so he wouldn't be surprised. Very painful for me. I cried several times in front of him.<P>The more the day went on, the more painful it became for me to be around him. <P>THEN... after dinner no one was home but me and my H. I wrestled with the idea of having sex with him for about an hour. I'm sure it was out of this intense loneliness I was feeling, and the longing for intimate contact again. (My biggest emotional need.) <P>I wrestled with this until I decided to simply go for it, with the idea that it would be one last time.<P>He turned me down saying he didn't think it was the right time, that he still cares about me, and that he doesn't want me to put my heart out there again and get hurt. Then he went to bed.<P>I feel like a complete fool right now, Gogie. It was probably the wrong thing to do at the time, but I am so lonely right now. Living with him in the same house is killing me. Even if he is an unhealthy choice for me, I still miss intimacy so much.<P>I am fine emotionally until I am around him too much and then I don't want him so much as I want to be held.<P>I guess this is all going to take some time and healing. I'm still going through with the filing tomorrow. I really can't go back to the old relationship.<P>Well, there's my sob story. Sorry to dump on you like this, Gogie.<P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>I can sure imagine the pain you are going thru. Being in the relationship is so painful, but getting out of the relationship is also very painful. There are just no easy paths to take here.<P>I sure identify with your wanting to be intimate with your H. On Friday nite, I decided to pursue it with my W. She was willing and it was very good. However, it was more "mechanical" than what you would expect in a relationship. I'm sure that reflects on the condition of the relationship.<P>I'm praying for your interview to go well today. And that you'll be mentally and emotionally uplifted. Hang in there. You are doing what needs to be done.<P>Love and support,<BR>Gogie

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>I hope your interview went well today. I thought about you several times.<P>I had another thought about your H. His comment about still caring about you, but not wanting you to get hurt, and turning you down seems insincere. If he cared, he would AT LEAST hold you and say he cared.<P>I sorry it's come to this for you. Don't feel like a fool at all. What you did was ok. Having your greatest emotional need go unmet is really frustrating and painful. All I can do is reach out across cyberspace and say I care.<P>Do you think one of your kids could just hold you? I know that doesn't take the place of a husband, but it might help. I would continue your self-care stuff too. It will get your mind on pleasant things.<P>Hugging you across cyberspace--your cyberbrother,<BR>Gogie

Hi Gogie,<P>Thank you for thinking about me today. I thought about you too. It speaks to how important this connection with you has become for me. I thought today, about how unconditional your support is for me, and how priceless that is in my life. Thank you so much. <P>I felt very ashamed of what I told you yesterday (as you picked up on,) and to have you still be there for me means more than words can say. It is amazing that we can support each other like this when we are both in different places in terms of our choices about our marriages. I'm really happy about that.<P>I thought more about what happened yesterday and realize I was also checking to see (unconsciously) if I really had to go through with the filing. I wanted to know 100% that I have done everything I can to make this marriage work. I have. My h is not making any attempts to praise me about anything but the things I do to become financially independent. He really does not want the marriage. <P>I am certain one day I will be thankful for him pushing me away, but right I have days where I hurt so much. Thankfully, today was not one of those days. <P>My H has been very insincere about a lot of things - that has lead to a lot of confusion and uncertainty about what's happening in our relationship. My daughter has pointed out his insincerity on several occasions. Like his apologies. Her eyes were open way before mine were.<P>Gogie, he did give me a hug when he turned me down but he has no intention of reconciling with me. He is pushing me out the door. Again, that is probably the best thing for me.<P>Thanks for the reminder about self-care. The same back to you too, ok! We both need all the nurturing we can get.<P>My interview went well. I was told I may have to return for another interview. I am applying for other jobs as well. We'll see what happens.<P>I filed the Divorce papers today then my d and I went to look at mobile homes. My h is buying me out on my share of the equity in our home so I am starting to look at my options. <P>How was your day today? <P>I thought about your w and the issue around the credit card purchases. Interesting that she would make a big deal about it when you purchased the items, and then turn around and say they were a gift! That seems like a big cop-out about buying you a Father's Day gift, don't you think? <P>Well, that's all for now, Gogie,<P>a heartfelt hug to you!<P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Unconditional acceptance is what we need as victims of abuse, isn't it? When we get it, it's a validation of our reality isn't it? I try to give back the same acceptance I feel from you. It's very important to me also.<P>I'm glad today went pretty well for you in terms of the interview, getting the papers filed, and looking for a mobile home. It sounds like you are moving forward with your life. That's good!<P>Today was uneventful so far. I'm dreading tonight. That's usually when the abuse of my daughters is worst--when they're getting ready for bed, etc. My W still forces her views about strict bed times, no goofing off, etc. That controlling along with 'normal' abuse seems to happen every night. I'm feeling like I just can't let it go--I've got to start confronting all the instances. That's hard and exhausting!<P>Hope you are at peace this evening and tomorrow.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Hi again,<P>Geez, you deal with abuse every night Gogie? That must be so tough on you. And confronting it IS very difficult. It's exhausting emotionally and physically. <P>I use to do a lot of that with my h. Maybe that has actually contributed to our divorce. Maybe he got sick of me doing that. I hadn't actually thought about that until just now. But I got to the point where I just couldn't stand it anymore. It's like once your eyes are really open to it, it's hard to close them again. I guess I would do it all over again, just the same. <P>I'm sorry you are going through this. We'll talk again soon.<P>hopefulheart

Hopefulheart, I feel a huge sigh of relief that the papers are filed...like you got over the mountain on the way to new, refreshing, full life!! And the house search is more than a house; it is a place of safety for you to be you, your very own, peaceful place, from which your soul can live and grow again. ((((((sisterly hugs!!)))))))<P>Gogie, my head is in a fog after H forced me to listen to him thru a long preaching spell. I feel like I've been spiritually and emotionally drained. Since he wouldn't quit, and I couldn't take it anymore, I started finding my purse, car key, and coat, making my way gradually to the door....and he grabbed me angrily, shoving me against the wall, demanding me to listen to one last comment and he was leaving to run an errand. UGH!!!!!!.... <P>He says the Christian therapists aren't Godly and twists things they & I have said to mean different things. He says they are simply using humanistic coping devices not Bible verses and true Spirit filling!!!!! I said, sure, they don't shove verses in your face, but they are applying scripture to relationship, which is what true Christianity is about--good RELATIONSHIP between God & mankind, and people with people, all in preparation for eternity. This went over his head. I told him their spirituality is more than you talk about. <P>Sounds like since he's deciding they aren't Godly, we probably won't be going back for therapy. Also, again, he called down the former counselor/pastor we went to, saying they didn't use the Bible right(they are from his own church denomination!!) See, only He is right!! Nobody can tell him anything. <P>Earlier tonight, he was very verbally abusive.... How can he abuse and think he is GODLY??????? He's blind!!!! He talked of doing certain Godly things, but he's not doing them! God help him!!!!! <P>He told me he hasn't given me a for-sure answer yet about going back to the therapists, but I can feel it...<BR>IF he refuses to be accountable now, I've got to give serious thought to getting legal action going...<P>Hopefulheart and Gogie, I need to know you two are there!! I feel bewildered after being around him this evening!!<P>Hopefulheart, I need to be held too!!! <P>H meets almost none of my needs. It is so deadening for me to be with him.<P>Yeah, sometimes the dragon sleeps here too...and I think I can be close to H again, but suddenly the fire blows out of his mouth and scorches me and I remember he is still a dragon!!!!! He is NOT safe! Gogie, the Bible says to guard our hearts.... This seems like good advice for those of us subjected to abuse! <P>Love & hugs to you both!!<BR>~Renae

Good to hear from you again, Renae. <P>I've thought about you and wondered what is happening in your life. <P>I often feel a sense of urgency in your words. As you know, I'm concerned for you. You're right, your H is not safe and he doesn't sound willing to deal with his issues so far. The question is, will he ever? In my H case, that was a big fat NO. I wonder if that will be true for your H. Do you think his latest outburst was the result of being threatened by therapy? <P>I am so familiar with what you are going through. You can't win when an abuser gets started. They beat you down to nothing. I can understand why you feel bewildered. Abuse feels like that. It knocks you off balance, confuses, and questions your reality and truth. <P>Renae, try your best to take care of yourself and trust what you know to be true ok? Let that truth be your guide on what to do and remember that Gogie and I are here for you always.<P>hopefulheart

Yes, much of how he's treating me is a reaction to therapy. On Friday, he twisted something to make me look wrong and harrassed me, saying I should be humble and admit wrong!! I actually did nothing wrong. <BR> <BR>Late Saturday, he was mowing grass while I was picking up branches left after a storm, and he ran into a rock, which bent the blade on the newly repaired mower....He came angrily fuming at me, blaming me..."If you can't be responsible, GET OUT OUT OF HERE!!! GET OUT OF MY LIFE!!! How does he figure I am at fault for that? He simply can't handle that it could have been his mistake. He was coming toward me to grab me...so I ran for my car and started to drive away...he signaled me to stop, asking me to finish one last thing before I go. I told him neither one of us knew that rock was there; what happened was an accident; why do you have to assign blame? <P>Last night it all started when he demanded we talk. He wanted to sort papers while talking, so I kindly handed him a bag for throwaways. He blew up at me angrily..."Stop forcing me to do things your way!!" What??? From there he went on this preaching thing against the therapists.<P>Yes, I feel urgency! Just ask [censored] here, I've gone the hundredth mile for this man, turned over every stone. He's so sick but refuses to see it. I have taken enough beatings. This therapy was the last hope I could offer him. I'm sad for him, but I must go forward. <P><BR>

Dear Renae,<P>Yes, it does sound like you've take enough beatings. More than enough. <P>It must be so disappointing to find that the therapy was not effective. Often, that's the case. <P>What is your next step, if any?<P>hopefulheart

Goodmorning Gogie,<P>Here's another piece of Sunday's rejection that I forgot about because I was so upset.<P>Part of our discussion that day included his comments that:<P>1. It's father's day, maybe you could give me some,<BR>and<BR>2. We need touch to stay connected.<P>He basically put that out there and then when I took the bait, he pulled the rug out from under me. Now that I've looked at it, it sure appears to be a power-play. Makes me a little mad! This type of dynamic has occurred in our relationship in a variety of different situations. It's no wonder I have been confused for so long. The communication is not clean and real. It's garbage!<P>I'm finding I can't trust his words, even when he is calm and appears to be sincere. He calls me honey and babe all the time. It's becoming very irritating but you know what happened when I questioned him on this. He blew up. For my mental health, I'm sure I can put up with it until I leave.<P>Yesterday he was building a loft for his bedroom. One way he is moving on.<P>The less contact I have with him, the better off I am. That's going to be one of my top self-care goals. My head stays clear and focused on what I need to do for my future.<P>Hope you are well.<P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart & Renae,<P>Renae, it's good to hear from you again. As I read about the 'preaching' and his claims that no one but him has the right view of God I realized that this is 'classic' abuser stuff. They have no problems. They are not part of the problem. They are superior. They must abuse to validate their reality. Renae, your H seems so sick. I'm concerned for you and your safety. I encourage you to make safety a high priority.<P>Hopefulheart, you are so right about abuse throwing you off balance, catching you off-guard, questioning your reality. That is why it is SO, SO IMPORTANT that we validate OUR reality. Self-care, self-protection, improving self-esteem is what we need to focus on. Focusing on these things may make the abuse worse, but they are nevertheless the right thing to do.<P>I'm off to a therapy appointment with my counselor in a few minutes. This is one of my self-care activities. I feel that hugging and being hugged even though thru cyberspace is also very important. ((((hugs to Renae)))) ((((hugs to Hopefulheart)))). Both of you have mentioned wanting to be held. Maybe one of your kids would do it. It's not like a husband, but still a good thing. I would give anything just for a hug from one of my daughters.<P>Your cyberbrother,<BR>Gogie<p>[This message has been edited by Gogie (edited June 19, 2001).]

I had a good session with the counselor today. She is always so supportive. She says I'm doing all the right stuff to become more equipped to deal with my situation. And not to let the reaction determine my sense of reality. She liked the idea of our discussions here in cyberspace. I told her how much they mean to me--to find out there are sisters that are in the same situation, although different stages as I am. Hopefulheart & Renae, sharing my heart and hearing from you has meant a lot to me over the past couple of weeks. Thank you!<P>Gogie

gone<p>[This message has been edited by AbandonedDad (edited June 19, 2001).]

Gogie,<P>As you know, these connections have meant a lot to me too. I can't say that enough.<P>I have grown to really care about you and appreciate all the support I have received. One thing I especially appreciate is your gift for getting me back on track when the going gets tough. And tough it has been.<P>All for now, Gogie. I'm tired after a 10 hour day at work<P>love and support<BR>hopefulheart

Hello! <BR>Looks like AbandonedDad erased his note, but I did read it before he did. If he stops back here, I hope he knows he is welcome to join in! I really feel for what he's going through! Gogie, you are certainly not the only male in an abusive marriage! His name says it all.<P>Hopefulheart and Gogie, I'm glad you two are working on the self-care. I need to do more of that!<P>H has been retaliating more....last night was VERY horrible and painful. But I remind myself, it is about him, his disease of the soul. I got an e-mail from the therapist...she sees "rays of hope"....but at my point of desperation, I need more than that, if indeed they even are rays of hope!!...She wants us to come back tonight together!! Gogie, I FEAR she is naive what they are in for tonight!!!....is it bad that I struggle to have faith? <P>I got the materials I ordered--"Enemies of Intimacy" tapes from Dr. Gerald Mann and Keith Miller's book about Control.<BR>Looks great!! Maybe diving into this stuff will keep me holding on a while!...<P>Praying for you, Hopefulheart and Gogie!! Keep focus forward!!<BR>Much LOVE to you!!!!<BR>~Renae<BR>

Hi Renae,<P>I can't help but feel your therapists are misinformed, and possibly unskilled in the area of abuse. Do they know what is occurring as a result of the therapy? The verble abuse is bad enough, but add to that the physical abuse and we are talking dangerous. <P>I agree that this is not about you no matter how many times it is said that it is!!! Don't believe him. <P>Consequently, only he can turn it around. In Evan's book she talks about how you will know pretty quickly whether or not changes are on the horizon for an abuser. <P>Try your best to focus on YOUR reality, YOUR self-care, and YOUR self-esteem. That is not faithless or selfish. It is survival. And we all have a right to do what it takes to survive. We deserve to live in safety and peace.<P>I will be here for you if you plan to go through with the therapy session but that's pretty scary. I wouldn't do it myself, but I respect your decision. <P>hopefulheart