Renae,<P>I agree with Hopefulheart in that I'm concerned about you going to the therapy session. You're sure a trouper to hang in there like this. Just be careful. I also share the concern about the experience of the therpists in abuse.<P>I don't blame you for being afraid. I think that is NORMAL and WELL-FOUNDED. God gives you the emotion of fear for a reason. You're not faithless for feeling this way!<P>Rays of hope are going to have to come from your H, not the therapists. Until you see that, hope in God. You CAN trust his will for your life.<P>Huggs and support,<BR>Gogie

Dear Hopefulheart & Renae,<P>See what you think of this:<P>Last nite my W mentioned that she is having surgery on her foot today. Last December, she had surgery to correct some ligament damage. It has been slow to heal and bothersome ever since. I heard a month or so ago that there's a mass of some kind in there that is not shrinking even with cortizone injections and that something might need to be done. Anyway, this was suddenly sprung on me. The really 'weird' part is that she said her Mom would come over to take her to the surgery center and pick her up. That way it would not "mess up my day". So I'm not sure if I'll hear what's going on or not until I come home tonight. As usual, I don't know what arrangements have been made about picking up the kids either. The message I got from all this is 'I don't want you around'. I asked some questions about the surgery, but didn't fight the idea of not being around.<P>What do you think?<P>Gogie

Gogie,<P>So your w left you out of something important today. Is that new behavior for her? Do you think she is withdrawing?<P>I imagine confronting her on her abusive behavior is going to have its affects. Could this be one of them?<P>I have wondered about your W and where she is at in the marriage. Has she ever talked about Divorce or anything like that? Not that Divorce and the surgery issue are connected, but I have wondered where she's at with your marriage.<P>I recently thought that PART of the reason I am now getting a Divorce is because I spent many months confronting my H on contradicting statements, standing up for myself and the kids, etc... It is bond to have some effect, I would think.<P>hopefulheart<P>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>You're very sharp to pick up on this. Yes, my W has been continually withdrawing since I "drew a line in the sand" a couple of years ago. It's cleverly disguised as "not wanting to bother me" or more often "you never tell us what you're doing, but you want us to tell you everything". Most of the time it's "us" she refers to rather than her. That way she brings the kids into it to look like they're all united about this and I'm on the other side.<P>Bottom line is, yes she's continually withdrawing more and more.<P>BTW, I went home at lunch and checked on her. Got her comfortable, went and bot some ice for an ice machine that's hooked up to her ankle. Tried to do the right thing.<P>Gogie

Regarding the divorce issue. She's never mentioned that word except a couple of times accusing me of wanting it. I have no idea where she's at on that or much of anything else. She won't share these kinds of things...

Dear Gogie,<P>Thanks for the info on your w. It now makes sense about how she dealt with the surgery.<P>Well, I came home at 9:00pm this evening to find my D missing! It scared me so much. <P>I found a letter left by my H (he was in bed asleep, by the way,) saying after he picked her up from her friends house at 5:30 she went in her room, locked the door, and wouldn't come out for dinner. He told her if she didn't open the door he would take the lock off. She didn't eat dinner but did open the door and started throwing a huge fit and broke her mirrored doors on her closet. He told her to stop throwing things then he took the lock off.<BR>He threatened to take her to mental health. When he left her room she ran for 5 miles and called our friend who came to get her. My H did NOT CALL ME AT WORK to tell me our daughter was missing. I called our friend (My D and I had discussed this safety plan in case I was not there and something happened) and she was there waiting for me to get home.<P>Gogie, I don't know what to do. I can't help but wonder what my Husbands motive was in this. I only make $800.00 per month so, as you know, I have been applying for jobs to get out.<P>My daughter hates him so much and is begging me to get us out of here. She has so much rage for him and having a lock on her door has been her safety. <P>I need to come up with a plan very soon. If he would have hit her, I would have called the police and had him arrested, but he didn't do that. My friend believes he is trying to get us out of here. <P>I will be thinking about it tonight. <P>This situation has become a crisis and I didn't see it coming. It was too calm around here and I thought we were safe.<P>I'll talk to you soon<P>Hopefulheart

Gogie,<BR>I admiringly applaud your efforts toward your W's physical need with her foot, "trying to do the right thing"!!....Doing good to one who acts as an enemy to us is never easy; it shows character in you! God bless you!<P>I think in any relationship it is dangerous to assume anything, but especially that is true in one that is sick and unstable, communication is so poor. And with a verbal abuser?...remember they operate in that different reality...so will we completely understand them? In the situation you describe, she may or may not mean "I don't want you around". I know, it is hard to believe an abuser would care about messing up your day!! But it is possible her words were true. But also, since when has my H cared about how he messes up my schedule or my days??...Having control is his main priority. Maybe your W felt more in control of how things were going to be by making up the plan that way. But again, we can't assume what her motives are. <P>The counseling here was difficult again....GRRRR!!! Hardest part is listening to H's warped perceptions, accusations against me, etc. But it is good to be able to see him presented with truth that he won't take from me!! I really need to think over ALL that happened....ALOT happened. And of course, I need to see some results soon!!!<P>((((((Hopefulheart)))))))<BR>((((((Gogie))))))<BR>((((((AbandonedDad))))))<P><BR>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>After reading your story, it struck me that you should consider seeing an attorney. Maybe it's possible to get some sort of restraining order. Also, maybe you can move out and your H can at least for now be forced to help pay for a place. I would think this could happen pretty quickly. In the mean time, could you move in with the friend for a few days until some action is taken?<P>I'll certainly be praying for you and your D as you consider your options here. Your physical and emotional safety is very important.<P>Prayerfully,<BR>Gogie

Dear Renae,<P>I'll certainly pray for you as you try to gain perspective on things. Again, your efforts to help your H are admirable. Just be careful.<P>Thanks for the ideas about my W. You're probably right that control is the issue here. By keeping me out of the loop, she's in control of the situation--which her reality demands.<P>Last nite was terrible for me. My two Ds got into it--very abusive language toward each other. My oldest keeps telling me to "do something" to the younger to make her stop the abuse. Unfortunately, discipline and abuse have gotten very blurry in our family. My W does not support any of my efforts to actually enforce conquences to the behavior such as taking away privileges, etc. She always sabatages these efforts. So, I'm feeling powerless to do much about the abuse. I try not to let it go by however, I tell them both how sad I am at their behavior and how inappropriate it is. The oldest called me a f***ing b***ard for not doing anything to the younger one last nite. This really hit me hard (though not the first time she has called my terrible names). I know she is really crying out for the abuse to stop, by I feel powerless to stop it. All I can do is continue to call it what it is--terrible, sinful bahavior.<P>Pray for me not to withdraw. That's my tendency during abusive encounters. They just hurt so bad emotionally that I just want to get away.<P>Gogie

Hi Gogie,<P>Did we both have a difficult night or what? This in no fun at all. Thank you for your suggestions.<P>Here's what I am going to do:<P>1. call about apartments after I finish writing this.<P>2. Plan a budget and then write up an agreement for temporary support for my H to sign. Before he left for work, I suggested this option and he didn't disagree with me. In fact, he asked if I would like him to take out the second mortgage on the house soon and pay me my share of the equity on the house. (At least he appears to be supportive right now.)<P>The loan will take a while. The house has not been appraised yet. Our estimate is that he will need to pay me $70,000. <P>Considering what happened last night, I don't want to wait that long so I will be moving as soon as possible. If he becomes uncooperative, I can file a Motion with the court to get a temporary support order. <P>My head is clearer today. It was hard to think last night.<P>Now, on to you, Gogie. It seems like you have some real pressure on you by your oldest D to help her. That's a hard one, isn't it? I know when my D is profoundly affected, it causes me to do what I can to help her. (As you can see with my new plan) She propells me along. <P>I can understand you're feeling powerless right now. I've felt like that so many times. In fact, I've felt completely beaten down and suicidal. It's hard to pull yourself up out of that state. I'm glad you are reaching out here. You know I care about you very much and want the best for you.<P>Maybe it's time for you to reclaim some of your power. It's ok for you to take care of you. It really is. You are hurting, I can tell.<P>I don't know how that might manifest itself, but there must be some options. Even small ones. The status quo is damaging in your family. <P>What do you want for you? For your daughters? Can these things happen in the current situation? I know there are no easy answers here.<P>I'm here for you, whatever happens.<P>hopefulheart<BR>

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>Sounds like you have your plan in place to do what needs to be done. You should be commended for thinking it thru and coming up with a plan that sounds very do-able.<P>Thanks for the encouragement about reclaiming what has been lost. I really need to do that. Quite some time ago, my counselor said 'if you don't fight for your kids, who will'? I'm realizing more and more that this is what I need to do.<P>Thanks for being there with your love and encouragement.<P>Loving support to you,<BR>Gogie

I thought marriage and family was meant to be a place of safety and you can be intimate/vulnerable and loved. I'm sorry the three of us have not experienced that in our homes. <P>I agree, we need to reclaim the ground that has been lost in our lives and families! Yes, we need to fight for our kids! This is what I'm trying to do for my kids too...<BR>and not let their dad frustrate them. <P>Gogie, I ran into a lady I haven't seen in four years. Her spouse came from an abusive childhood....and repeats the garbage in their marriage, etc. The difference now is, that their current church keeps him accountable and she says it is working! They are exercising a tough love with him. (Reminds me of the article from FamilyLife). I don't know how long he will remain willing to cooperate, but at least for now he is and he seems to be learning. WOW!! <P>When I heard that, I thought of you, Gogie,... I wish your Pastor could do that for your family... I have come to believe that without accountability there is little chance of change in our situations. Since you are the God-ordained head of your household, you could ask the Pastor if he is willing to check up on you all weekly...He would call a family meeting in which it is admitted that the status quo is not only dysfunctional but causing tremendous soul damage for all of you and what specific changes are necessary. Each week, he would visit your home and each person in the family reportd whether he/she is being respectful and has been treated with respect or how things might be improved upon. And if the younger daughter is caught by you abusing the older one, she gets the consequences from the pastor. (Maybe you bring her to the church office for whatever consequences are needed). Is this far-fetched, or could it work? <P>Hopefulheart, along with Gogie, I commend you for coming up with a workable plan of action. I hope your H cooperates as you need but if not, you will have to do the court plan. I would also recommend you jot down on paper and give your H this phone number to call: 1-800-582-7618 and ask for information about the Elim Home (for Alcoholics and Drug addicted). It has been in operation for many years and helped many get their lives turned around. There is help when he reaches the point of admitting his life is a mess.<P>My H told the therapists that therapy doesn't help! Early this morning he came to me and said he wants to quit! But that's because he doesn't like the rebuke he got last night and the resulting pain he feels. The man really let H have it with "You are all in your head!! Where is your heart???..Whatever you've got to do, find your heart and start relating from the heart with her!." <P>This morning H spouted off with anger and accusations at me; I was firm with H and also shocked him with gentleness (demonstrating how I want to be treated, how he treated me in our dating period) and he actually wept! I am surprised! It appears something is stirring, but this all hurts and is confusing for him. He demands to understand more. Good! This afternoon he comes to me and says sadly "you don't need me around you today in the shape I'm in" (meaning he can't give me an enjoyable birthday, and he knows he's a mess!) His cholesterol level report arrived today, proving to him that his stress is too much and he needs to change his life! I thank God for the timeliness of that report. Living an unbalanced, dysfunctional, controller, abuser life is killing his body and soul along with our marriage and family! <P>I feel that something is changing, but I don't know how it will go. The last thing he said before he left the house was, that maybe we have outgrown each other?? At least he's thinking, awakening some feelings (tears, etc), and looking at the relationship (not just his work).<P>Hugs to you both!! We keep praying, Gogie!! <BR>~Renae<P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 21, 2001).]

The kid in me says, "HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME!!!" (It's today!)

Gogie,<P>How are things going? I've been thinking about you and wanted you to know that. You mean a lot to me and I can't help but want the best for you. The connection I have with you has been an empowering and healing one. I hope that the love and support you give so easily to me can also be extended to you. In my heart, I know you deserve that. You strike me as a very good man with many desirable qualities.<P>I guess I just wanted you to know that.<P>What your wife is doing in your marriage, to you, and to your daughters is hard for me to understand.<P>Are you still concerned about your own tendency to withdraw? Although I can tell that it pains you to do that, it is very understandable under the circumstances. In some ways, I would think it is a natural way to protect oneself emotionally when it hurts so bad. The hope begins to hang by a thread, doesn't it?<P>My own withdrawl over the last year in my marriage has been pretty extreme at times. My spirit has been so damaged, I just could not put my heart on the line anymore. Is it like that for you Gogie?<P>It is so hard to stay connected with such a wounding and abusive person, isn't it?<P>I'm sorry you are going through this.<P>Please do what you can to protect your heart, and emotional health.<P>I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but Patricia Evans also has a book called, "Verbal Abuse Survivors Speak Out." It's a good one. <P>Love and support, always<P>hopefulheart<BR>

Dear Renae,<P>How did your birthday turn out? With your H feeling sorry for himself, I wondered if he would be able to give to you. I hope it was a good one.<P>You know, I am wondering if your H is simply changing his tactics with you. You stood up to him. Abusers can throw us off balance and confuse. I could be wrong and this could be the beginning of a turn around. Or, it could be another way to gain control over you when he is very threatened. Make you feel sorry for him, gain your sympathy. Especially if this has worked for him in the past, it's always possible.<P>One way to find out is by taking care of yourself. Try to stay present and focused on what is occurring in each moment with your husband. It will help you to stay clear and aware. One way I stayed clear and present is by documenting interactions with my h for about a week. That revealed so much!!! <P>If the change in your h is real, time will certainly tell. And remember, earlier today he did verbally abuse you.<P>My H has pulled the rug out from under me so many times. Just when I think the storm has passed, I get hit by a tidal wave. <P>Please remember not to be lulled into believing all is well just yet. He can turn on you at any moment. Take it from someone who knows!<P>Protect yourself and your children, ok.<P>I'll be thinking about you.<P>Love,<BR>hopefulheart

Dear Renae & Hopefulheart,<P>First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Renae! I hope it was a good one! That's good that you wished it to yourself. You deserve it.<P>I thought about what you said about the family being accountable to the pastor. Conceptually, it sounds like a good idea. It would work when the abuser figures out that something is wrong and wants things to change. In my situation, I don't see it working. I've approached W with the idea of talking to the pastor. She's not even willing to consider it.<P>You know abuse in families seems to be treated as a dark, dirty little secret. The abuser does not want the truth to come out. So the abuse is done in secret. I've thought several times about how to bring the little secret into the open. Doing it cooperatively isn't going to work. I can't even get W to discuss it in "secret" with a counselor. So, do I blow the lid off things and start telling friends and family about it? Maybe...orchestrating an intervention is the way alchohol abuse is sometimes confronted...<P>Thanks for your thoughts and continuing love and encouragement.<P>I'm wondering about your H also. Seems like he's either struggling to come to grips with a different reality OR he's not going to accept it and is trying to manipulate you as Hopefulheart has suggested. I think Hopefulheart's suggestion is a good one--stay true to your reality and watch out for yourself.<P>Hopefulheart,<BR>Thanks for the words of love and encouragement from you. Having you and Renae there to share with means a WHOLE LOT!<P>Have your heard anything about your interview? How is your D doing? How are YOU doing?<P>I think you hit the nail on the head about withdrawal. Putting your heart on the line emotionally is hard (impossible) when you get beat up in the process. I'm sorry this has happened (and continues to happen) to all three of us. I am trying to do as you suggested and protect my self and my emotions. Even that's hard because I wonder sometimes if I'm burying my emotions rather than protecting them.<P>Thanks for the reminder about Evans' book. I'll try to pick up a copy.<P>Prayer and loving support to you both. It's been great to have been able to put my heart on the line with you and be validated!<BR>Gogie

Dear Hopefulheart & Renae,<P>Since the three of us have formed this on-line support group, I was wondering...<P>Would you be at all comfortable sharing with one-another via email rather than posting these messages for the world to see? I'm willing to if you are. Please understand, I'm also fine with keeping things the way they are. Think thru all the implications of this suggestion and if you're not ok with it, that's no problem. For me, email would be quite a bit easier to access and a little more private than sharing with "the world". Again, I'm fine either way. If you decide it's ok, I would be glad to be the one to share my email address here and you could email me and I could get us connected.<P>As I've said before, I really value being able to share with both of you, having you share with me, and your unconditional support. It means so, so much.<P>I'm leaving for a Colorado Rockies baseball game pretty soon this afternoon. My W and oldest D are going. We're meeting some friends for dinner first, then the game this evening. It should be fun and uplifting. Our youngest D is staying behind for a sleep-over.<P>Prayers and support for both of you--that you're having a good day.<P>Regards,<BR>Gogie

Hi Gogie,<P>Yes, I would be happy to do e-mails. I agree, it is much easier and more private. Go ahead and post your e-mail here and we'll go from there.<P>I was glad to hear that you have something fun to do. I hope everything turns out well for you with that. <P>I wish I could say the same for me. Life seems to be all business right now - find a new job, find a new place to live, take extra good care of my daughter, re-work my finances, and continue with the divorce process. <P>I was unable to walk this week but will resume that as soon as I can. It makes me feel so much better. <P>This weekend could be a good one if I stay away from home and go have some fun. Tomorrow my daughter and I are going to see a movie and on Sunday I am taking both my kids to the water slides. I'm already feeling like a single mom. My daughter swears that I have been that all along since my H was not a nurturing, involved father. <P>Yesterday my Daughter and I both had a therapy session together. She talked about a painful time for her when she was 4 and I packed her back pack with a sweatshirt and sweatpants since my husb. was taking her, my niece, and son to the beach. It tends to be foggy sometimes so I wanted to make sure she kept warm. My h would not let her bring them with her once she got there and he left her sitting on the beach while he and everyone else went surfing. She said she was so cold and alone. She cried over that and my heart broke for her. It was a sad thing to hear, but one of many in which she felt wounded and uncared for by my h. His relationship with her has been so damaging. Sometimes I feel some guilt over not intervening sooner. I guess all I can do is deal with the present. The past is the past, except when I find myself angry over it.<P>I am finding that the only time I am "down" now is when my husband and I have relationship talks or when a holiday comes along. Overall, though, I have to say I am doing pretty damn good today! <P>I am applying for jobs, looking at apartments, and getting my life in order. Today I re-did my filing system, got boxes for moving, sent in a job application, and an apartment application.<P>Gogie, that's it for now. Talk to you soon, k?<P>hopefulheart

Dear Hopefulheart,<P>As I read your posting, I couldn't help but be sad for you as you move ahead with the transition in your life. I'm sure you've played some of this over-and-over in your mind, but now, as you're actually having to do it, it's hard. The thing that strikes me as positive is how this is going to affect your D. It sounds like it will give her a whole new outlook on life. Things must have been really painful for her over the years. It amazes me how kids remember things we may not even recall that were so hurtful in their lives. Sounds like this is the case with your D.<P>I'm praying for you and her as you move forward with your transition: that you find a nice place to live, that the finances can be worked out, that the divorce can proceed with as little pain as possible, that your self-care activities will be fruitful, that you'll get the job you're looking for.<P>You're a special lady and deserve the best. I hope you get a chance for that walk on the beach today.<P>Hugs to you and your D,<BR>Gogie<p>[This message has been edited by Gogie (edited June 25, 2001).]