Everyone,

I am feeling a little better yesterday and today (Thank everyone for their prayers!). SO, last night, instead of sleeping ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I decided I probably had a few books I have been meaning to read, and why not start now?

The first one I pulled off the shelf was written by Robert Steinkampf. If you don't know who he is, well, he was the WS. He and W CHarlyne (recognize THAT name?) run the website called RejoiceMinistries.org. They teach a Bible study in their home-town of Pompano Beach, Fl on standing for M'd, have tapes available, and have co-authored a number of books on the subject, but this one was written by him alone. It is called "Prodigals DO come home."

Short version: He left his home, had A, she divorced him, God convicted her that this was NOT His plan, she prayed him home, they remarried. That was after they had been M'd about 19 yrs, and took place almost 18 yrs ago! They now host this website, send out daily encouragements to those "standing" for reconciliation of their M's.

OK, introductions over..........

Here's the cool stuff, I was sooooooo impressed with the book, and I'd like to throw a little at a time of it at ya! I don't wanna retype the entire book, cause it's a lot of typing, and frankly, it's illegal!!!!

The book gave me such a sense of comfort and understanding of the WS's mind, I could not believe I waited THIS LONG to read it!! (I think I bought it almost 2 yrs ago - talk about timing).

OK, first point I learned last night was that God never condones divorce. YOU KNOW the scriptures: "What God has joined, let no man tear asunder. and
"whosoever shall put away his W and marry another, commits adultery. AND
"If a woman shall put away her H and be m'd to another, she commits adultery.

OK, we got it. BUT, (here it comes!!) WHAT ABOUT the "adultery clause"? Well, according to what Bob Steinkampf believes, yes, this scripture allows for divorce under this circumstance, but it doesn't demand it! In other words, you have the RIGHT, if you are the BS to divorce your S, but it doesn't necessarily have to happen!! Funny thing, this is the conclusion I had pretty much just come to recently, and had actually talked this over with my close friend/prayer partner (her son has a Walk-away-wife right now, no real reason......no A, was just "unhappy" - so they are separated, he is praying she will return to the M). So we were talking about whether her son did or did not have "grounds" (abandoned), but I said I felt even if he DID have "grounds" didn't mean he HAD to do it! I don't think he's going to.

The analogy he makes in the book is about being on a cruise ship. They all come equipped with lifeboats (IN CASE they are needed). Doesn't mean anybody EVER really plans to use them! We don't take them out and use them just cause we see they are there! The cost is too high to use them except under extreme circumstances (to me, this might explain "extreme" cases such as abuse, or multiple A's, for instance).

He ends this particular chapter with this quote: "When a M goes through rough seas, we can't afford the lifeboat of D. Why not just let Jesus calm the seas for your ship instead of jumping into a lifeboat?"

Think on these things........
More to come later............

<small>[ June 18, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

Glad to hear you are feeling better!

Something caught my eye in your post - You mention about your friends son being "left" by his wife? That was my exact situation - My X just left - no reason, just unhappy. She chose and processed the divorce. I was just along for the ride.

Anyway, the reason I say this is that there is a great book that helped me a lot (since I chose to NOT divorce, but to try all I could to salvage the marriage.) It is called "The Vow: The Kim and Krickitt Carpenter Story" - Here is the link to it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-5783247-3259903 (all you need to do is just take a minute to read the reviews on the above link and you'll understand..)

It tells a story of what true love and dedication really is all about. I think this would be a GREAT read for your friend's son...

And while we are on the topic of books, one that I still use each day is Streams in The Desert. I actually have bought maybe 6 of them as gifts to those who I knew were going through hard times in their lives. It is a daily devotional that is just amazing...

Thanks for the incite into the book you are reading! That is it for my book reviews for now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mike

<small>[ June 18, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: SoTired2000 ]</small>

Hi SoTired2000,

I think the ONLY way I'd take my husband back is if he lost his memory and therefore we could make a totally new start LOL. He wouldn't remember any ties with his bimbos, family (who 'support' him in all his destructive vices), 'hobbies' (ranging from expensive selfish things for himself to porn), midlife crisis, 'dieting' (borderline eating disorder), etc. LOL And I don't mean the pretended memory los he has when he claims the horrible things he's said and done never happened...

Actually I'd consider taking him back if I thought he truly had remorse and really did change... But he has no remorse and is unwilling to take even the tiniest steps towards reform. Besides, I've already given him oodles of 'second' chances which he's wasted and he's a major liar and con artist. So it would literally take years for me to be convinced. And by then the kids would be grown.

I really don't believe in divorce. I don't plan to date or remarry. I would worry too much about how that might make things even worse for my daughters. So I really put off giving up on the marriage as long as I could. Maybe if my husband remarries, my kids are grown and married, and my kids say they want me to start dating... But by then I'll be so old I doubt I'll even be interested in anyone who'd be interested in me LOL

Most of the time I feel REALLY alone and sometimes I feel depressed. It really isn't fair is it? The way our society is now there's not much shame for adulterers. It's becoming easier and easier for them to just walk out on their families and committments, selfishly enjoying the good life with no regard for the hearts their breaking and the problems they're causing.

Hey but it could be worse: I can't imagine anything worse than being like them. I'm not thrilled about the situation I'm in but I definitely prefer it to BEING an adulterer myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by icedancer:
<strong>I think the ONLY way I'd take my husband back is if he lost his memory and therefore we could make a totally new start </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Icedancer, I think that's exactly what God does!

"Old things are passed away, ALL THINGS are made NEW!"

I'm just helping bump this up. I will add to it from the book later today, cause I can't believe how GOOOOOD it is! All BS's need to read it.

I highly recommend if anyone doesn't have this book, or any of the stuff from Steinkamp's, YOU NEED TO!!

Especially if you are standing for your M. Bob S. is very open about sharing what he, as WS, was thinking, doing, planning to do, and how God thwarted, changed his plan at every step after letting him wallow in his sin for a "season."

God bless,

OK, second chapter of Bob Steinkamp's book......

Quoting from story of Prodigal son.......
"...the younger son gathered his belongings, and took his journey...."

We all know the story - Prodigal son wanted to "experience" all life had....wanted his inheritance from his father, and wanted to be FREE! His father wisely granted his wish.

Bob S. says one of the first steps WS goes through is to "gather up his belongings...." in preparation for his "trip."

Mentally, your WS had to have gone through a "mental gathering" in his mind of how "life would be sweet" after s/he left for the netherworld we now call "The Mothership."

In order to accomplish this, Bob S. says the WS will ask for certain items to take with them.

The Bible doesn't speak of a court fight over possessions....instead it says, "If your brother requests your coat, give him your shirt, too...."

Three reasons:
#1: They are in a FOG and are not thinking right....
#2: You don't know for sure what they are thinking about WHY they want the items in question, BUT you can be assured they take ALL the memories associated with the item with it!
#3: The item will return with the Ws eventually, when our Lord returns them home, & the items return with them.

Final point driven home in this chapter: Lots of BS's argue against the WS taking personal (marital) items into the "bed of adultery," b/c they object to OP using/touching/having them. But try to remember, WS has memories of the item, too, of the way BS "used" the item.....OP CANNOT POSSIBLY COMPETE WITH THAT!!!

Interesting, isn't it? All we have to do is DO IT GOD'S WAY, and He has a MUCH BETTER PLAN than we as to how to deal with our WS's!

More to come. (I am LOVING this book!!)

God Bless,

Hey lupolady!! The book sounds really good. I know just what you mean about the prodigal. I was talking with my daughter one day and I told her short of seeing Jesus face to face I am looking forward to the day when our family will be reunited. What a joyous day that will be! God Bless!!

Hi lupolady, WHAT ABOUT the "adultery clause"? If you actually go back to the original language that this verse was written in it actually says except for fornication. For some reason in the translations they have givin both words the same meaning but they are not the same. fornication is sex before marriage and every one knows what adultry is. In biblical times a women was married to a man for close to a year before they came together and had sex. this was partly to prove that she was not pregnant. If she was the husband had the right to divorce her. Ihis was the only true clause that god allowed for divorce. because it is actually written except for fornication; adultry is not a true clause for biblical Divorce. Its amazing how things can become muddied during translations . Smiaj

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SMIAJ:
<strong>Hi lupolady, WHAT ABOUT the "adultery clause"? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this is what I get for trying to "appease" everyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I TOTALLY agree with you, but didn't want to offend any, as I want as many people as possible to benefit from my insights gained from reading this book. So I "backed off" my own personal opinion..........and "watered it down" a bit.

I have learned a valuable lesson. I WILL NOT do that again!

Good to "see" you, Adam. You sound good, and sound like you're getting stronger and "healing." I'm happy to know that.

Our God is SO GOOD, isn't He??
Sometimes it just brings tears to my eyes to think about all this LOST TIME my WS is missing out on this special R being built with my Lord and my Savior.

God Bless,

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

Going to church camp the whole next week with my two teens. It's gonna be so good to get away from all this and drive six hours to the camp, spend the week with my children and worship and grow in God. Watch my children grow in God too. What a blessing. He is my strength. Phil. 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

Hi lupolady, I don't want to offend anyone either and I don't condem any who believes that it truely means adultry. It is hard enough to live by gods word with out worrying about what was lost in the translations. smiaj

lupolady,

I'm pretty sure ex was having relationships throughout our marriage (no actual firm proof, though) so he probably falls into the adulterer category anyway, but what about abuse?

Is there anything in the Bible about abusive relationships, or were women and children just supposed to grin and bear it?

lori

Bangarra,

I'm no expert! I don't know what I'd do......that's a tough call.

I feel like I can tell what the Bible says you SHOULD do! But, do many people like it? Is it safe? Should you do it? Like I said, I don't know if I could do what it says.......

I believe the Bible says to leave it ALL in God's Hands.....that HE ordained M, and we are to STAY MARRIED. That in a situation such as you quieried, we ARE to simply TRUST HIM to "change" the situation.

As I said, I DO NOT KNOW IF I COULD DO IT. I am NOT telling you that you should stay and take abuse. No way.

Grew up in abusive home w/abusive father....I DO NOT TOLERATE ABUSE. At all.

period

I would commit murder. Sorry to disappoint all those who think I've "come so far." This is so deeply ingrained in me, I cannot think of it. This certainly is an argument for leaving....children should NOT be subjected to this type of behavior......it's just so damaging. I am living proof.

SO, I can't advise you.

Hi,

I'd just like to add another element to this discussion.

I am a Christian. I do believe in the Bible, although I feel that it has been corrupted over the years - by man, NOT by God. I believe that I will answer to God for everything I've ever chosen for my life - right, wrong, good-intentioned or bad. My life is, and will be, scrutanized by God. And it's between ME and GOD - only.

When I recently remarried, I questioned whether this marriage was ordained by God. Yes, there was infidelity in my first marriage, so I was "okay" on that count. But... does it really matter? I mean... WILL I BE PUNISHED IN THIS LIFE AND FOR ALL ETERNITY BECAUSE I DIVORCED AND REMARRIED?

I did a lot of studying, and talked about it at great lengths on the Women's Bible Study board. I got some GREAT verses and support during that time. If you'd like, I can find that thread and reference it.

I guess what I want to say is that we can sometimes be so hard on ourselves -- and believe that it's God's will (I sure did it!), when in fact, God is a God of mercy and love, and knows when we are being the best we can be... as people of God... as Christians.

Lupolady, the book sounds wonderful, and I'm so happy for your recovery...

Hi, Sheryl,

Thanks for checking in..........
I'm glad you gave us another perspective on all this......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> My life is, and will be, scrutanized by God. And it's between ME and GOD - only.

I got some GREAT verses and support during that time. If you'd like, I can find that thread and reference it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for reminding us that this IS such a personal thing.........
Funny, isn't it? God wants ALL to come to knowledge of Him, yet it seems it's so dang HARD to do...............

If you can find some of the Bible study stuff you guys did on your quest, I'd like to see it. Please DO link it here (if you can).

Prayers,

Of course, you can read any/all of the thread, but the specific passage is written by trustntruth and is half way down the page I have linked below:

Page 2 of Thread about the Bible and Divorce/Remarriage

Let me know what you think...

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

Thanks for linking that, Sheryl. Yes, I DID go and read "the whole thing!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Can't say I agree Or disagree with it, since I'm not inclined to do the study it might take to do that (BOY!! Am I being lazy)

However, ONE THING I got out of it was that if I wanted to ever consider remarrying H, I should STAY single......... As it stands now, that's no problem! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

OK, next chapter of Steinkamp's book, PRODIGALS' DO COME HOME:

The portion of scripture used here deals with the "journey" of the Prodigal....."he wasted his inheritance on riotous living......"

Although the prodigal's exact destination was not known, it doesn't matter HOW FAR your prodigal goes away.......2 blocks OR 2000 miles.....God's grace can reach all the way around the world.

"Although the far country differs for each proidgal, they do appear to have common factors: Most prodigals attempt, in varying degrees, to maintain contact with their families. Most prodigals also re-establish their new surroundings in the far country to be similar to their family's home....be it redecorating to something similar to 'home' or positioning a piece of furniture to "feel" the same as 'at home.'"

This is the most unfortunate prodigal who attempts to make it all work under their own power. When that happens, the prodigal takes a decided strange turn.... This is what some call the Prodigal entering the act unlike yourself stage!

About this time, the spouse at home begins to "hear things" about the prodigal. When satan has a message to be delivered, there is always a willing messenger. The faithful spouse at home should dismiss about 99% of what is being gossiped about. This is when the BS will begin to think, "Why should I want him/her back? S/he left me, now look what they are doing...."

Regardless of the circumstances involved, the spouse that can continue to exhibit unconditional love for the prodigal is one up on satan and winning the battle.

"Your prodigal is trying to live right side up in an upside down world. His emotions are playing constant tricks on him. The person at home needs to be prepared for getting clobbered by the prodigal's pendulum of emotion. His moods may swing very quickly from almost euphoria to total depression. The prodigal who calls to check on his children and to tell his spouse how great everything is going, is the same person who calls back an hour later trying to speak through tears from the pit of depression. The person waiting at home often becomes victim to kind, even loving works, followed shortly by words of hate."

When you are hurt by the prodigal's swaying emotions, allow the love of Christ to soften the harsh words. No matter the circumstances, look to Him even through your tears, to keep you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bangarra:
<strong>I'm pretty sure ex was having relationships throughout our marriage (no actual firm proof, though) so he probably falls into the adulterer category anyway, but what about abuse?

Is there anything in the Bible about abusive relationships, or were women and children just supposed to grin and bear it?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, Lori--if you don't mind I'll jump in on this one. First, I'll say it is my firm, firm, firm belief that God does not want divorce; however, He also wants married people to be loving and faithful and put Him first! How often does THAT happen?? In real life, unfortunately, human beings don't usually do the full will of God and then something gets messed up. Thus, maybe the married person isn't faithful or isn't loving or develops a disorder or even crosses over into abuse.

In my personal opinion, this is where it gets rough, because the marriage already isn't in the will of God. The best ideal is to stay married and try to get BACK into the will of God for both of you. As you know though, more often than not, one or the other of the two partners is not really willing to get back inot the will of God. At that point I think there are several relevant factors.

I think in the bible, the "rules" that were established for divorce need to be examined for the SPIRIT of the law, not the LETTER of the law. What was God trying to accomplish with that "rule"? This is where the Pharisees of Jesus' day totally lost it, because they got so wrapped up in the little details and being judgmental that they missed the intent of the law altogether!

So, I feel that most of the "rules" that were established for divorce were discipline against the guilty to protect the innocent. For example, the most often quoted concept that you can divorce someone if they were adulterous is, I think, God's way of saying that the "innocent" spouse is allowed to protect themselves if the other spouse behaves sinfully. Thus, in my interpretation, it seems to me that God DOES want us to protect ourselves and be safe (something that is pretty much impossible in abusive situations).

Next, I also think that some of the "rules" were put in place so that women could not be exploited by sinful men (and nowadays that is vice versa also--so men can not be exploited by sinful women). This tends to say to me that if we are living right and doing God's will in our lives, and our partners are not, that God did try to set up some boundaries to protect us...once again, protecting the innocent from the harms of the sinful. Do you see a pattern here?

Finally, I Cor. 7:12-24 is the whole portion about if a nonbelieving spouse is living with a believer, don't leave them because they can be blessed by being with you--but if they chose to leave, let them go and you are not bound. Okay, I think many people use this passage as a good excuse or justification for leaving a spouse and not feeling guilty about it. HOWEVER, I think even in this passage, the underlying message is that God does not want us to just leave our spouses "willy nilly." As believers, our lives are EXAMPLES to others of His love and commitment, so we have a duty to stay. BUT (and this is a big but) when our spouses act in ways that put us in danger, and when our spouses act in ways that indicate loving others and no commitment to our family and marriage, and when our spouses act in ways that say by their actions that they do not want us...then I think we have a duty to protect ourselves and not continue to be hurt.

Lori, like you, I was married to an abusive man for years (you've been around long enough--you know my story). I believe I did do God's will for the most part by being a faithful wife and good mom to the children--I did right by my family. So, when my spouse was cheating all along I did not put him out and summarily divorce him--his life was blessed by being with me! He just didn't know it at the time! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I tried for decades and years to repair our marriage and give him the chance to change his abusive ways. But when his unfaithfulness and abuse continued unabated, and his actions indicated that he did not want me or the kids--when he moved out, I let him go. I think at that point I did have a duty to protect myself, and I don't mean attack him to protect me--I mean to shield myself from being any further hurt from his choice to continue to live unfaithfully, abusively, and not dealing with his disorders.

Ideally, it would have been God's will for us to remain married--for him to admit that unfaithfulness is wrong and deal with whatever is driving him to behave like that...yada yada yada. But he was not willing to do that. So then I came to realize that whilst God loves my H and would love nothing more than for him to come back to God, God also loves ME and does not want to see me continue to be hurt and abused either. I'm precious and valuable too--not just my prodigal!

So there are my brief thoughts on what the bible thinks about abuse. Clearly God's will is for a husband and wife to be loving, to love God, and to serve each other. Clearly God does not want one spouse to be harmed at the hands of someone who is supposed to love and care for them. I don't think God wants us to divorce, but I do think He allows it in order to protect one of His own beloved children.

CJ

OK, I'm gonna try to continue with this book........Seems like this thread has taken its own twists and turns! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Next chapter refers to "The Prodigal in Want..." .....and when he had spent all, there arose a famine in the land, and he began to be in want...."

Bob Steinkamp says satan uses finances as the (nearly) number one problem to defeat separated families. We need to memorize Phil. 4:19 "...My God shall supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus." He goes on to state that "a spouse being responsible in finances is one of the greatest avenues of expression of unconditional love to the prodigal, even when he refuses to accept his share of the responsibility."

What follows is a personal story from Bob S.'s time as a WS:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"One winter afternoon, I had attended a wedding w/OW. After the wedding, we had dinner and had gone to a christian concert. Since we were near BS's house, I decided to stop by and drop off CS check...I went, wearing a new gray suit and a pink shirt. I had lost a considerable amount of weight, and had my hair styled for the first time in my life. I was driving OW's customized van, which had been concealed a few doors away.

BW answered the door, wearing her favorite old robe. She had spent her Saturday evening working on bills and deciding how much she could afford to send to keep the creditors at least partially happy. The temperature inside was colder than outside, since she had to keep the heat turned down in order to afford the elec. bill.

What she didn't know about what she saw was that the suit I was wearing had been purchased at a discount store for $79. The pink shirt was a gift from OW. We were in her van, b/c I couldn't afford gas $$ for my car anymore. The concert tickets were a gift from a friend, and dinner was courtesy of OW's father. My hair was longer than usual b/c I couldn't afford a haircut till next payday. BTW - the feature at the concert that evening had been: The Prodigal Son. "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the reason I love this book is that there has been practically zero contact between me and WH since the day he left. I feel as tho this book has given me a "glimpse" into what life might be (slightly) like for him during this dark time. I have absolutely NO way to know anything. He moved almost 200 miles away, and there is no one there who is "spying" for me!

Take comfort, people. The thing I am seeing most from reading this book is that GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL, no matter what the Prodigal spouse is trying to do!

God Bless,

Hi lupolady, it sounds like a great book. it is also sounding just like what the Lord has been teaching me over the last 2-3 months. Smiaj