Do you ever wonder if there's a website out there for adulterers to post 'support' and tips on how to get away with it? Most likely they're all too busy having fun with the money and time they deprive the kids of, right? When I'm feeling blue I wonder if my husband and his bimbo(s) are laughing at how they've hurt me and my children. I mean how can they have any self-respect and enjoy going out on dates together when the kids have to go without? What DO they say to each other about the destruction they're causing? I am supposedly the bitter one? I don't have some sick need to take joy in hurting others. What bitterness drives THEM?

It really seems as if adultery is becoming so acceptable. I even heard of a service that provides alibis for adulterers. If you express disapproval of adultery people think you're a prude or just 'bitter'. The victims, even the children, are expected to mostly keep their pain hidden so as not to make the adulterers feel guilty. Victims who have difficulty keeping quiet are labeled 'vindictive' and are put down for not 'accepting'. Marriage and divorce are becoming more like going steady and breaking up. It doesn't really matter if the marriage broke up because one partner committed adultery - it could still be thought of as 'no fault'... I know there's always been adultery and divorce but adulterers used to also run the risk of shame and shunning. Now there's so much adultery and divorce it's easy for adulterers to find support from others. They don't exactly become social outcasts or get fewer invitations. I think more people are committing adultery partly because they knwo they don't have to worry much what others will think, say or do about it.

Don't you think more could be done to counter the way society is condoning adultery? Have you heard of any advocates or organizations that are actively trying to fight this trend by actually exposing/condemning the harm adultery is causing? Shouldn't there be groups to openly oppose adultery with a Dr. Phil or Dr. Laura attitude?

Why are there no public service announcements chastising adulterers like there are for drunk drivers and litterers? Where are the public education campaigns to deprive the adulterers of the myth that the children aren't too affected by it? Where are the politicians and ads condemning the purchase of midlife crisis mobiles to impress young bimbos? I'd like to see and ad on tv showing a middle-aged man out in an expensive restaurant with a younger woman - and the narrator pointing out that he's spending his kids college money. Then they should cut to the mother and kids eating macaroni and cheese by candlelight because the electric bill was overdue... Wait I'm not done, the commercial should end with a close-up of the young woman, challenging her to get up and walk away from the married man - to do THE right thing.

And what ARE the losers who date a married person looking for in a mate?!? I mean how stupid is that? Is their dream date somebody they KNOW will fool around? Aren't they worried about disease? Let's see he/she doesn't care about his/her spouse or kids... maybe they'll care about ME and someday MY kids? I've seen commercials warning young people about premarital sex but none warning young women about midlife crisis males on the prowl.

Shouldn't a distinction be made between people whose marriage broke up because they committed adultery versus those who tried to save the marriage? I don't think it's enough to just have groups like Parents Without Partners, is there an organization specifically for the victims of adultery? My daughters and I don't want to hang out with the parents who are now single because they committed adultery.

And what about that Rainbows program. Do they do more than just try to ease the pain of the children victimized by divorce? Do they take a strong public stand against adultery as a cause of divorce? Although I appreciate such resources the adulterers probably are encouraged by such services - assuring themselves the kids will therefore be fine. I just think it's just as important to try to stop adultery for the kids' sake.

Have you noticed the betrayed spouse usually is dumped with all the responsibility to help the kids cope - and any problems the kids have the betrayed spouse is sometimes blamed for. The betrayed spouse is expected to make the kids accept it, to visit the adulterous spouse without exhibiting anger, to provide cards and gifts for the adulterer, etc. Don't you think that's a bit much to expect from the kids and betrayed spouse, especially when compared to how low the standard is for the adulterers?

I especially think it's harmful to the kids to expect them to be pleasant towards the OW/OM. We're talking about home-wreckers, remember? I'm all for teaching kids manners and respect for adults, but come on folks, it HAS to be very destructive to a kid's self-esteem to have to play nicey-nice to the bimbo/bimboy who SELFISHLY causes so much pain. Let's face it anyone who truly cares about your kids will NOT screw around with your spouse. I think forcing kids to pretend it's OK is abusiveness. Most kids are savvy enough to figure out the adulterous parent dumped them too - not just the betrayed spouse - regardless of platitudes otherwise. Being committed to your marriage is one of the most important ways to do the right thing for your kids. I don't think kids can really be convinced otherwise, do you? You KNOW that's how they feel and basically they ARE RIGHT. So why all the emphasis on pretending otherwise? Isolating our kids with their pain by expecting them to pretend it's OK, they're OK, seems so cruel and dishonest to me. I'm not saying we shouldn't help kids cope and heal but we should be very careful not to pressure them to just act as if they're OK just because that will make the adulterers feel more comfortable. I don't believe the adulterers have much genuine concern for the well-being of the kids - they just want to have their cake and eat it too without being bothered with guilt or consequences.

OK, that's all of the questions I can think of for now...LOL

Well,

I guess the real problem is that no one takes responsibility for what goes on in their lives and everyone looks for quick fixes to their problems.

In the USA, this problem is getting worse and worse...Your TV or stereo breaks, you throw it out and get a new one. You don't like your clothes, you get new ones. You don't like your marriage, you end it and get a new interest.

My point is that nobody puts any effort into anything anymore. As long as the masses have their cable and satellite TV, they will be diverted from their problems long enough so that they won't work on them. Just look at the stuff that is most popular on TV now....shows that people backstab each other to vote one person off.

JMHO...

icedancer,

Have faith and protect the children the best you can. (by faith, I mean, good deeds bring good things, and bad deeds bring bad things, I'm an atheist)

What goes around will come around and your children will know who the better parent is.

The best revenge is living well.

Living well does not necessarily mean being rich. Some of the best times remembered as a family are the hard times when the family pulled together.

A clear conscience is good living. I made my mistakes in my marriage, but was willing to learn and correct them. I did everything I could think of. My XW chose to lie, cheat, and manipulate and marry the OM. Her guilt level must be astounding.

I do agree with everything you said, but focusing on the negative only wastes my time. I've wasted enough time already. Life is short and getting shorter by the day.

Hoping for the cheaters to get theirs is like pulling up a chair to the train tracks and waiting for the crash. A crash most likely will occur, but it may take quite a while and you might not be looking when it happens and miss it. (I've heard it happens when you least expect it.) Either way, it's a waste of time and demonstrates exactly what is wrong with society. Rise above it. Go find some cool things to do and live life. Stop being a spectator.

Focus on living a great life and surrounding yourself with people with good character.

I admit I'm not perfect at this philosophy. I do have my bad times as well.

Don't let the [censored] get you down. They've demonstrated they don't give a damn about you. Why should you care what they think?

Hi, Hoping's reply reminded me of this email I received that went like this;

Heart warming!

I grew up in the fifties and early sixties with practical parents --a Mother, God love her, who washed aluminum foil after she cooked in it, then reused it. She never, ever threw away a plastic margarine container because "it just might come in handy someday." She was the original recycle queen, before they had a name for it...

A Father who was happier getting old shoes fixed than buying new ones and insisted that keeping them polished made them last longer.

Their best friends lived barely a wave away. I can see them now, Dad in trousers, tee shirt and a hat and Mom in a house dress, lawn mower in one hand, dishtowel in the other.

It was the time for fixing things -- a curtain rod, the kitchen radio, screen door, the oven door, the hem in a dress. Things we keep.

It was a way of life, and sometimes it made me crazy. All that re-fixing, reheating, renewing, I wanted just once to be wasteful.

Waste meant affluence. Throwing things away meant you knew there'd always be more.

But then my Mother died, and on that clear summer's night, in the warmth of the hospital room, I was struck with the pain of learning that sometimes there isn't any 'more.'

Sometimes, what we care about most gets all used up and goes away...never to return.

So...while we have it...it's best we love it.....and care for it.....and fix it when it's broken.....and heal it when it's sick.

This is true.....for marriage.....and old cars.....and children with bad report cards.....and dogs with bad hips.....and aging parents.....and grandparents.

We keep them because they are worth it, because we are worth it.

Some things we keep. Like a best friend that moved away -- or -- a classmate we grew up with.

There are just some things that make life important, like people we know who are special.....and so, we keep them close!

I'm not passing judgement on anyone here and we want to keep our loved ones. But they may not want to stay and we can't make them. It is a very sad situation, but we have become the disposable society.

Free

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Free ]</small>

There is a group of people that my ex and I used to hang out with, the across the street neighbor was firmly entrenched in my ex's camp and continues to be a total jerk. The rest maintained some semblance of impartiality (I do know that most people really DO NOT like my ex, he is far too arrogant). Out of those 3 couples, only one was a remarried divorcee (across the street neighbor), all have kids. One couple are fairly active swingers, so have an open marriage, but seem pretty clear on staying together forever. Another couple seemed to stick together even though they fight/bicker all the time, but turns out wife has been having As with hubby's good friends. The jerk across the street began having an A with a bimbo from work, she was moved into the house, later moved out but still around all the time. I feel so sorry for the wife and just heard there was a big blow out at a party my ex had on Father's Day about bimbo and jerk.

yep, all that drama in my little neighborhood... because I chose to continue on my own and making myself a better person instead of going out and chasing men, they all think I am strange. I think sometimes that is why I come in to the MB board and read... it gives me some idea that I am OK. This day and age it is really hard to tell what is normal or not. It is definitely a throw away society; for things, people, animals.

I sent my older D away to residential therapy to get help for the abuse she received from ex, yet some of her friends' parents condone drinking and drug use as long as it is at their house. My D doesn't use drugs and dislikes drinking, so I got lucky there, but the fact that I'm told by those parents that it is OK, she is safe because the kids hang out at their place? Give me a break! One kid failed all his classes, and is now in a special program so maybe he can graduate. He has no goal, no ambition, and no interests other than drinking and getting high. Parents just say, keep it up... you're out of the house when you turn 18. They think I am insane because I sent my kid away to try and help her; why spend that kind of money?

This is a sick society; a horrifying era of self indulgence. It isn't just the acceptance of adultery, the norm of divorce and split up homes, the unaccountability for one's own actions, it's also about how damaged the youth are. It is very disturbing.

Lori- who is tired and rambling on....

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: bangarra ]</small>

Want to know what one of my all time favorite movies is?
Willy Wonka and The Chocolate Factory. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is such powerful story about "life". And although the story was written some years ago, it could just as easily be written about today's world... I try to think of myself as Charlie - while tempted, he sits in wonder about how the other children can do the things they do. While he is human and even he makes mistakes; he feels remorse and seeks forgiveness.

BUT the most important part to me is at the end, when Willy Wonka is yelling and berating this child (kind of like many things in this world do to all of us each day), Charlie follows his heart and walks up and places the everlasting gobstopper on Mr. Wonka's desk...

"...So shines a good deed in a weary world..."

That is what I think "life" is all about - Trying not to focus on all the bad, but rather making sure that each day, we do our best to "shine a good deed in a weary world"...

Have you?

Today?

God bless,
Mike

Great post.
Just wonderin, I'm tempted to send to Ow, but as I am recently into Plan B, would this be out of the question?
Feedback?

{{{Mike}}} Thanks! There is a lot of good in the world, too, I try and find it where I can.

Lori

ice dancer, don't want to hijack your thread and don't want a new one but i have a question about your name here. email me, please, at cinderella4mb@yahoo.com

Do you ever wonder if there's a website out there for adulterers to post 'support' and tips on how to get away with it?

Yes there is - several. The only one I have ever visited was phillanderers.com (sp?). Almost completely made up of MM that cheat - especially those that fall w/in the description of the cakeman mentality.
When I'm feeling blue I wonder if my husband and his bimbo(s) are laughing at how they've hurt me and my children.

I seriously doubt it.

Don't you think more could be done to counter the way society is condoning adultery? Have you heard of any advocates or organizations that are actively trying to fight this trend by actually exposing/condemning the harm adultery is causing? Shouldn't there be groups to openly oppose adultery with a Dr. Phil or Dr. Laura attitude?

Perhaps. Since you feel so much passion for the issue why don't you fuel your anger into crating just such an organization or program?

Why are there no public service announcements chastising adulterers like there are for drunk drivers and litterers?

I live in a small town where they have just such a PSA. It is produced by a local church. The W is on sofa crying, the OW is in car outside, and the daddy is about to walk out the door w/ his suitcase in hand. The little boy calls out "Dad wait you forgot your bible". The man turns around and sets down his suitcase and then embraces the W and son. Then the church is advertised. I guess someone at this church was affected enough by an EMR to the point they wanted to take action.

I'd like to see and ad on tv showing a middle-aged man out in an expensive restaurant with a younger woman - and the narrator pointing out that he's spending his kids college money. Then they should cut to the mother and kids eating macaroni and cheese by candlelight because the electric bill was overdue... Wait I'm not done, the commercial should end with a close-up of the young woman, challenging her to get up and walk away from the married man - to do THE right thing.

So campaign, get the funding, and make one.

And what ARE the losers who date a married person So campaign, get the funding, and make one. looking for in a mate?!? I mean how stupid is that? Is their dream date somebody they KNOW will fool around? Aren't they worried about disease?

As an OW I can assure you I am looking for the same thing in a mate that most BSs are. We are open with one another and honest. Why should we have any less faith in a FMM that professes his fidelity than a BS that takes her H back? At least I am aware that he has the propensity to cheat and know what to look for if he were. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I used the example once of a baby that has had periods of apnea in his past. If the babysitter has taken CPR classes, is aware of the signs and symptoms of apnea, and is aware this baby has a history of apnea - this babysitter has a better chance of keeping an eye out on the baby and taking good care of it. Whereas if a babysitter has no idea the baby has ever had apnea spells, this babysitter might take the baby's health for granted, not be on the look out for symptoms of apnea spells, and may not know how to prevent, recognize, or treat the problem.
They he doesn't care about his/her spouse or kids... maybe they'll care about ME and someday MY kids?

My FMM cares a great deal about his kids. He also cares for mine and was active in their life even before we moved in together 16 months ago. But since BSs are so sure these FMM will do the same to us, they ought not to worry about us as of course the FMM will do us wrong later on down the road, right?

Shouldn't a distinction be made between people whose marriage broke up because they committed adultery versus those who tried to save the marriage?

Those guilty of adultery should what, wear a scarlet A on their foreheads? Should we give a cape to those who tried? And what about the many (some here at MB) that were guilty of adultery but then tried to fix M but the BS couldn't forgive, let go, and divorced the WS? What do we give them?

And what about that Rainbows program. Do they do more than just try to ease the pain of the children victimized by divorce? Do they take a strong public stand against adultery as a cause of divorce? Although I appreciate such resources the adulterers probably are encouraged by such services - assuring themselves the kids will therefore be fine. I just think it's just as important to try to stop adultery for the kids' sake.

Never heard of this program.

Have you noticed the betrayed spouse usually is dumped with all the responsibility to help the kids cope - and any problems the kids have the betrayed spouse is sometimes blamed for. The betrayed spouse is expected to make the kids accept it, to visit the adulterous spouse without exhibiting anger, to provide cards and gifts for the adulterer, etc. Don't you think that's a bit much to expect from the kids and betrayed spouse, especially when compared to how low the standard is for the adulterers?

He does not expect gifts or any of the other things you mentioned. In fact, we even offered to do the third party, neutral location pick-up/drop-off. All he expects is for her to stay in compliance w/ the court orders. I agree. There should be no "expectations" on how the child should act. How about letting the child/ren have their own opinions and feelings toward the OP. And if for some reason the child/ren has positive feelings toward the OP how about the FBS accepting this w/out making the child/ren feel as if they have committed an act of treason. I agree. There should be no "expectations" on how the child should act. How about letting the child/ren have their own opinions and feelings toward the OP. And if for some reason the child/ren has positive feelings toward the OP how about the FBS accepting this w/out making the child/ren feel as if they have committed an act of treason.

I especially think it's harmful to the kids to expect them to be pleasant towards the OW/OM.

I agree. There should be no "expectations" on how the child should act. How about letting the child/ren have their own opinions and feelings toward the OP. And if for some reason the child/ren has positive feelings toward the OP how about the FBS accepting this w/out making the child/ren feel as if they have committed an act of treason.

Most kids are savvy enough to figure out the adulterous parent dumped them too - not just the betrayed spouse - regardless of platitudes otherwise.

A parent does not "dump" their child - regardless of why they divorced and I think it is abusive if the BS even suggests this to a child.

tewjtm,
Looks like you've got it all figured out, with a twist that justifies it all for you.
Does the term "Fog" ring a bell!

tewjtm,

Keep on deluding yourself.

Thank you for giving us fine examples of the warped logic OPs and WSs put into their justifications.

Yeah, they've got it all figured out.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

tewjtm,

......speechless.....
......unbelievalbe....

sounds like you have mastered the ability to rationalize your actions...

good luck with that!

To: Tewjtm,

"He does not expect gifts or any of the other things you mentioned."

Unfortunately (for me and my kids) my HUSBAND does expect things to be given to him. Wanting more toys for himself by forcing his kids to drop their activities was one of the major factors in the break-up of our family. The last year he lived with us he made comments in front of his daughters about resenting spending money (and time) on them and whined about wanting more stuff for himself instead.

When we send him cards he complains that's 'all' we gave him, even listing that in his divorce papers as an example of my supposedly being 'cruel' to him! But when he sends the kids cards, he claims that as an example of him supposedly 'doing all he can do' as a father. Last year for his birthday we got him cards, gifts and the kids spent a day with him to celebrate (just before his actual birthday because they had a skating show they were in on his actual birthday). He claimed we did NOTHING for his birthday! Set aside your selfish delusional (fog) perspective for a nanosecond and consider what THAT does to a kids' self-esteem, their father claiming the cards and gifts they gave him never happened.

"In fact, we even offered to do the third party, neutral location pick-up/drop-off. All he expects is for her to stay in compliance w/ the court orders. I agree."

"We"? LOL Has he married you? Do you know what the odds are of a marriage based on adultery lasting? Less than 10% and that's the ones that even get as far as marriage.

In my situation, my husband (his bimbos' opinions on visitation not a factor) is demanding to have visitation with ME. He is only settling for the mutual friend drop-off/pick-up temporarily. He repeatedly tells me he wants to come to my home and even wants me to come along and spend the whole day with him and kids on visitation days. But I bet he's complaining to his bimbos that I'm giving him a hard time about visitation... and they're giving him sympathy. Funny how it doesn't occur to the other women that the father could be giving the mother a hard time over visitation because he still has mixed feelings for her? Maybe he needs to try to start arguments with his wife whenever he fears he's feeling attracted to her again, to try to push her away again? And haven't you heard yet that a major reason why the wayward spouse feuds with the betrayed spouse is because it gives the adulterers something in common besides the sinful selfishness they're engaged in?

Also did you note that I referred to him as my HUSBAND? We aren't divorced yet so what he and his bimboS (he doesn't have just one so there goes you're theory that he's being 'faithful' to his adultery partner LOL) are doing is adultery.
Adulterers don't have to wear a scarlet letter for people to be aware of their ugly, selfish attitudes. I was suggesting that people should stop pretending to the adulterers' faces that it's OK and tell them what' said behind their backs. And there should be more public outcry and organizations actively trying to discourage adultery for the sake of the children it harms.

"There should be no "expectations" on how the child should act. How about letting the child/ren have their own opinions and feelings toward the OP. And if for some reason the child/ren has positive feelings toward the OP how about the FBS accepting this w/out making the child/ren feel as if they have committed an act of treason."

When you selfishly engage in adultery with no regard for how it's going to destroy a family and harm the children you ARE placing a VERY HIGH expectation on the children. You're shamefully expecting them to suffer a considerable amount of pain just so you can satisfy your urges. And it's a cruel expectation compounded evenmore by then expecting they can magically not be effected by it. Adulterers who truly cared about the children would say to each other, "let's stop this - it's wrong and it's harmign the children'.

BTW, what makes you think I'm not allowing my children to form their own opinions? Don't tell me you actually believe those silly lies that adulterous husbands tell... 'she's turned the kids against me'... 'I was a wonderful husband and father but they just didn't appreciate me at home'. (More on this later in another post LOL)

My 17 year old has been of the opinion for almost two years now that her father is a lying, violent, manipulative, selfish, jerk. Unlike my husband's bimbos, she's known him for a long time and knows what he's really like. They had an argument a few months before he moved out and stopped speaking to each other - nothing to do with me I wasn't even home when it happened and still don't even knwo what it was about (she won't talk about it much and he says she's a "f---ing liar - it never happened" after he complained to me they DID have an argument and she called him a "jerk") And NOTHING makes her more angry at me then when I express forgiveness for my husband or understanding of how he got the way he is. So don't try to tell me I "suggest" her opinion of her father. She's old enough to form her own - and boy has she.

My 15 year old usually only goes to see him because we don't want the 11 year old to go with him alone. (When he lived here most times he spent with the youngest daughter she ended up sobbing because he started cussing at her for something.) The 15 year old daughter tried to talk me into filing for divorce as soon as he moved out. When she does see him she acts pleasant and doesn't tell him how she really feels about what he's doing. She's afraid of him (he used violent rages to try to control me when he lived at home). He head-butted me once and she's afraid because she has braces in her mouth.
She complains about the stress of visiting him and being EXPECTED to act happy. She also complains about all the expensive toys his apartment is cluttered with.

The 11 year old has mixed feelings; sometimes she calls him and wants to go see him, sometimes she hates him and tries to throw away anything that reminds her of him (I tell her to just put them away for a while but not throw out for good). She and I were including him in our prayers each night but lately she doesn't want to.

Don't tell me their father and his adultery partners aren't placing an unjust expectation on my daughters! You're not the one who has to try to comfort them when they're depressed. Of course their father refuses to believe that his daughters understand anything or think any the less of him. This is how he put it: 'They're dumb punk kids and nobody gives a f--- what they think.&#8221; By 'nobody' he's obviously referring to himself and his bimbos.

And you must be extra deep in the fog if you think my daughters could possibly have any positive feelings for my husband's adultery partners! Yea, that's why I have to calm them down when they get angry about how their dad's spending their skating, college, grocery... money on dates with bimbos. My youngest daughter doesn't cry herself to sleep thinking nice thoughts about the other 'women'. And since we found out my husband has been seen taking bimbos to restaurants, mall and movies near our home (even though he lives 50 miles away) I've been careful to avoid taking my daughters around those places evenings and weekends. I doubt my daughters would react pleasantly to the bimbo du jour if our paths crossed.

"A parent does not "dump" their child - regardless of why they divorced and I think it is abusive if the BS even suggests this to a child."

Actually, that's exactly what some adulterers do (dump their children). Only one week after moving out my husband announced he was "over you guys" (not just me but his daughters too), had "closure", and was "getting on with his life"! He's admitted on numerous occasions that he goes as long as he possibly can without contacting his daughters in an attempt to "start a new life". Once he told a mutual friend he wasn't going to contact his daughters unless they contacted him first. Once when I asked him for money for his daughter's braces he said, "what's in it for me?". He's threatened many times to leave the country to avoid any financial responsibility to his family. He stopped doing things with his daughters long before he moved out, instead preferring to stay home alone to visit porn sites and chat with his internet girlfriend. When he moved out he didn't even take any pictures of his daughters or the presents they had just gotten him for Christmas... Oh but they're not supposed to feel dumped, huh? Why not, because an adulterer entrenched in fog stupidly asserts otherwise? I happen to know for a fact my daughters DO feel dumped and it's NOT because I suggested it to them but because they're father did in fact dump US.

ANY parent who ignores their wedding vows by committing adultery is failing to give proper consideration to the welfare of the children.
So in that sense they are dumping their children by putting an affair as a higher priority than their children.

You adulterers expect us betrayed spouses to shush the kids up, coerce them to act happy or else you'll accuse us of 'suggesting' (my husband prefers calling it 'brainwashing'). You're doing exactly what I was talking about: placing expectations and blaming.

How dare you accuse me of abusing my children! I would never show so little concern for a child as to commit adultery with their father and break up their family. And I would never subject my children to the abuse of expecting them to pretend the things that's breaking their hearts is OK, expect them to stifle their true feelings just so daddy and his adulterers could feel good about themselves.

I think it's silly the way adulterers pretend to believe each other. They're really not fooling anyone - not even each other. You know he's lying to you about how bad things were at home but you sleep with him anyway; he knows you really don't believe or need his lies in order to sleep with him. You both know what you are and what you're doing is wrong. It's just 'let's pretend we're decent people who aren't really doing anything wrong, anything that's harming anyone else'. So you try to convince yourselves that somehow there's some honor in it, that you can respect yourselves and each other in spite of what you know about each other's low morals. Frankly I think the pretense that adulterers immerse themselves in is one of the most pathetic things about their sordid affairs. It's not the sort of embarrassing self-delusion I'd ever want to get caught indulging in! LOL He gets to pretend he's a victim of the meanies at home and is only committing adultery because he was driven to it... She gets to pretend she's a lady whose only sin is trusting him, she didn't break up a family, the family didn't appreciate him... And everyone else is murmering 'midlife crisis' LOL

Listen, the thing is everybody knows you're doing something wrong, something that's hurting other people who don't deserve the pain you cause them. Do you really prefer people pretending to endorse it to your faces, then snickering and shaking their heads after you walk away? Surely you realize decent people don't respect adulterers. I think it's better to tell you the truth. It's not helping anyone when people pretend to endorse adultery. The only genuine empathy you'll find is from fellow adulterers.

tewjtm,

I have a question for you...

Say a man is living his life... troubled perhaps but living it none-the-less. A woman walks up to him and pulls out a gun. She takes his wallet, his house, his car... and then proceeds to shoot him full of holes. He is taken to the hospital where he pulls through after a year or two of intensive treatment and severe pain. A pain that although better, never goes away. Every time he looks in the mirror he sees his scars. Every time he tries to reach up, he is stopped because the scars of his chest prevent him from ever really reaching the top shelf. He is able to see the shelf daily, and longs for the time when he could reach it, but try as he might, he can never get back to that place, so he does his best with the shelves he has available to him.

Now this woman who shot him, took his wallet, and car has determined that what she did was not such a big deal. Because obviously the man is alive. Has regained some semblance of life, and she really likes driving the car. So No harm done. Does this fact relieve her of her responsibility in the action? Does the fact that she likes the car mean that she should have it. What if that car really fits her style, size, and attitude? Is she guilty? Is she guilty of a crime? What crime? Deprivation of material objects? Is that the real issue here? Do you think that the man really cares about the car when he is trying to fit his life on the bottom shelf? Do you think that he wouldn't trade that car, wallet, and everything else for the chance to once again have access to that top shelf?

Now put a family as the man. Me being a man will say that the things that were taken from me and my family was MY FAMILY. Not just by the other MEN... but mostly by my EX-WIFE. She was the person who along with several knowing accomplices, pulled the trigger on my boys and me. She took my wallet (career) and my house (location to live) my car (feeling of freedom and trust) and most of all she put scars on me that can never heal (loss of my family and the inability for my children to EVER know a whole family) all for the sake of herself.

Now, does the fact that I have made it through this... does the fact that my children are continuing to grow negate the actions she has so selfishly taken? Does the fact that my boys and I are alive negate the fact that all we ever wanted was a family? Is it OK those [censored] catered to my wife's (at the time) carnal whims, simply because my boys and I are alive. Should we 'Just be HAPPY' that we are continuing to survive? Should all be forgiven simply because she wants to 'be happy' x 4... Why shouldn't I travel to Kansas and kick the living crap out of that lying 27 year old married, father of two beautiful little girls. Why shouldn't I drive to the next suburb and knock the 43 year old divorce adulterer on his butt several times over. Why shouldn't I go down to her local sports bar where she used to do the 'bar walk' around so everyone could ooooo and aaahhhh over her, and take out the rest? I mean, if anyone ever had the right to kick the crap out of someone... it is your FMMs ex wife . Because if I was just a bit weaker of a man, I would have taken them to ground. But then, I finally realized that I would only fight over something or someone that was worthwhile. And she was NOT. My family was already scarred. Nothing I ever could have done would have brought my family back together...I tried... I tried with everything I had... she just did it again... Nothing I ever do will either.

But, according to you... just because you 'love' the child. Her mother doesn't have the right to have her family whole. Just because you 'fell in love' that little girl doesn't have the right to ever again say "Good night mom and dad." in the same breath. You think you had nothing to do with the breakup... you think it would have happened anyway, and you probably tell yourself that the children are better off because they have "YOU" and "YOU" are better for them. You probably tell yourself that since you are still together, it was "Meant to be". I can hear you telling yourself since she has 'shacked up' you are less culpable in your own actions. I have heard all this from you.

And you are full of crap.

icedancer,
Unfortunately (for me and my kids) my HUSBAND does expect things to be given to him. Wanting more toys for himself by forcing his kids to drop their activities was one of the major factors in the break-up of our family. The last year he lived with us he made comments in front of his daughters about resenting spending money (and time) on them and whined about wanting more stuff for himself instead.

When we send him cards he complains that's 'all' we gave him, even listing that in his divorce papers as an example of my supposedly being 'cruel' to him! But when he sends the kids cards, he claims that as an example of him supposedly 'doing all he can do' as a father. Last year for his birthday we got him cards, gifts and the kids spent a day with him to celebrate (just before his actual birthday because they had a skating show they were in on his actual birthday). He claimed we did NOTHING for his birthday! Set aside your selfish delusional (fog) perspective for a nanosecond and consider what THAT does to a kids' self-esteem, their father claiming the cards and gifts they gave him never happened.

[ I think it was lousy of him to act this way. I also imagine it diminished the pride the kids felt in the fact that they had given him something and done something for his bday. I am sure their feelings were very hurt. Besides, since when is it a child's obligation to do something or give something to a parent for the parent's bday??? My children usually make cards, draw pictures, make breakfast (that is barely edible - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) - and of course I always act pleased. However, I would never chastize (sp?)them because I felt their gift didn't measure up. Has he always been that way about bdays etc?
"In fact, we even offered to do the third party, neutral location pick-up/drop-off. All he expects is for her to stay in compliance w/ the court orders. I agree."

"We"? LOL Has he married you? Do you know what the odds are of a marriage based on adultery lasting? Less than 10% and that's the ones that even get as far as marriage.

No, but we will in August or Sept (my choice, yesterday if it was his). However, due to the fact he works I am often the one that picks-up/drops-off their daughter. Thus, to make her (XW) more comfortable we offered to do this at a neutral location. And yes I said "we". As "we" have their daughter in our care 3 days a week. And during these 72 hours "he" has to work 36 of them so then "I" am the part of "we" that cares for her.
In my situation, my husband (his bimbos' opinions on visitation not a factor) is demanding to have visitation with ME. He is only settling for the mutual friend drop-off/pick-up temporarily. He repeatedly tells me he wants to come to my home and even wants me to come along and spend the whole day with him and kids on visitation days. But I bet he's complaining to his bimbos that I'm giving him a hard time about visitation... and they're giving him sympathy. Funny how it doesn't occur to the other women that the father could be giving the mother a hard time over visitation because he still has mixed feelings for her? Maybe he needs to try to start arguments with his wife whenever he fears he's feeling attracted to her again, to try to push her away again? And haven't you heard yet that a major reason why the wayward spouse feuds with the betrayed spouse is because it gives the adulterers something in common besides the sinful selfishness they're engaged in?

Well it sounds as if you have nothing to worry about then in your situation. If H wants to spend all this time visiting w/ you and the kids then that must be a good sign. Therefore, it really shouldn't matter what the "bimbo" thinks, believes, or does. No, I have never heard that last statement either. If that is true in your H's case it must be mighty pathetic to have to create the appearance of an arguement just to have something in common with his bimbo. I mean to take time away from your W and kids to spend w/ someone you have so little in common with makes no sense to me.

FMM does not argue w/ his XW. For example, when he wanted to change days of visitation as his work schedule changed, he called and asked her. She stated she did not want to do the change. He thanked her for her time and consideration in the matter. Then he asked me to draw up a Motion to go back to court and ask for the change. We have court in 3 weeks. See, no arguement whatsoever.

Also did you note that I referred to him as my HUSBAND? We aren't divorced yet so what he and his bimboS (he doesn't have just one so there goes you're theory that he's being 'faithful' to his adultery partner LOL) are doing is adultery.

See you have confused that what I am stating about MY RELATIONSHIP, OR RELATIONSHIPS IN GENERAL AS APPLYING TO YOUR H. I NEVER SAID THAT. IN FACT, I STATED IN SEVERAL THREADS WHERE THE W CALLS THE OW A B!TCH OR A BIMBO, THAT I WILL TAKE HER WORD FOR IT AS SHE KNOWS THE OW FAR BETTER THAN ME.
Adulterers don't have to wear a scarlet letter for people to be aware of their ugly, selfish attitudes. I was suggesting that people should stop pretending to the adulterers' faces that it's OK and tell them what' said behind their backs. And there should be more public outcry and organizations actively trying to discourage adultery for the sake of the children it harms.

And since you believe so strongly in this what are you as an individual doing to bring attention to the fact that there should be more "public outcry and organizations actively trying to discourage adultery for the sake of the children it harms"
"There should be no "expectations" on how the child should act. How about letting the child/ren have their own opinions and feelings toward the OP. And if for some reason the child/ren has positive feelings toward the OP how about the FBS accepting this w/out making the child/ren feel as if they have committed an act of treason."

When you selfishly engage in adultery with no regard for how it's going to destroy a family and harm the children you ARE placing a VERY HIGH expectation on the children. You're shamefully expecting them to suffer a considerable amount of pain just so you can satisfy your urges. And it's a cruel expectation compounded evenmore by then expecting they can magically not be effected by it. Adulterers who truly cared about the children would say to each other, "let's stop this - it's wrong and it's harmign the children'.

BTW, what makes you think I'm not allowing my children to form their own opinions? Don't tell me you actually believe those silly lies that adulterous husbands tell... 'she's turned the kids against me'... 'I was a wonderful husband and father but they just didn't appreciate me at home'. (More on this later in another post LOL)
No, I was stating what I believe children in general should be allowed to do. I do not know you. I have not read enough of your posts to even begin to form an opinion on what you are or are not directing your children to do. Again please look outside of your own situation and really read what is written. When I am referring to you - I state I think it is really lousy what YOUR H is doing. The above comment was stating that I felt in general children should be allowed to form their own opinion. It was not an attack on you or your parenting .

My 17 year old has been of the opinion for almost two years now that her father is a lying, violent, manipulative, selfish, jerk. Unlike my husband's bimbos, she's known him for a long time and knows what he's really like. They had an argument a few months before he moved out and stopped speaking to each other - nothing to do with me I wasn't even home when it happened and still don't even knwo what it was about (she won't talk about it much and he says she's a "f---ing liar - it never happened" after he complained to me they DID have an argument and she called him a "jerk") And NOTHING makes her more angry at me then when I express forgiveness for my husband or understanding of how he got the way he is. So don't try to tell me I "suggest" her opinion of her father. She's old enough to form her own - and boy has she.

See, I never suggested that. I also believe a 17-year-old can form their own opinion. My 15 year old usually only goes to see him because we don't want the 11 year old to go with him alone. (When he lived here most times he spent with the youngest daughter she ended up sobbing because he started cussing at her for something.) The 15 year old daughter tried to talk me into filing for divorce as soon as he moved out. When she does see him she acts pleasant and doesn't tell him how she really feels about what he's doing. She's afraid of him (he used violent rages to try to control me when he lived at home). He head-butted me once and she's afraid because she has braces in her mouth.
She complains about the stress of visiting him and being EXPECTED to act happy. She also complains about all the expensive toys his apartment is cluttered with.

The 11 year old has mixed feelings; sometimes she calls him and wants to go see him, sometimes she hates him and tries to throw away anything that reminds her of him (I tell her to just put them away for a while but not throw out for good). She and I were including him in our prayers each night but lately she doesn't want to.

Don't tell me their father and his adultery partners aren't placing an unjust expectation on my daughters! You're not the one who has to try to comfort them when they're depressed. Of course their father refuses to believe that his daughters understand anything or think any the less of him. This is how he put it: 'They're dumb punk kids and nobody gives a f--- what they think.” By 'nobody' he's obviously referring to himself and his bimbos.

How terrible for them. I can not even imagine remaining in such an abusive environment, nor would I allow my kids to go off anywhere I thought they might be abused. Is it a goal of yours to remain in this marriage?

And you must be extra deep in the fog if you think my daughters could possibly have any positive feelings for my husband's adultery partners! Yea, that's why I have to calm them down when they get angry about how their dad's spending their skating, college, grocery... money on dates with bimbos. My youngest daughter doesn't cry herself to sleep thinking nice thoughts about the other 'women'. And since we found out my husband has been seen taking bimbos to restaurants, mall and movies near our home (even though he lives 50 miles away) I've been careful to avoid taking my daughters around those places evenings and weekends. I doubt my daughters would react pleasantly to the bimbo du jour if our paths crossed.

I am not saying your daughter's have any feelings whatsoever for his "bimbos". However, my FMM's daughter is very much bonded w/ me and will often push him away in favor of me. And this is because she was allowed to form her own opinion. I am not saying your daughter's have any feelings whatsoever for his "bimbos". However, my FMM's daughter is very much bonded w/ me and will often push him away in favor of me. And this is because she was allowed to form her own opinion.

"A parent does not "dump" their child - regardless of why they divorced and I think it is abusive if the BS even suggests this to a child."

Actually, that's exactly what some adulterers do (dump their children). Only one week after moving out my husband announced he was "over you guys" (not just me but his daughters too), had "closure", and was "getting on with his life"! He's admitted on numerous occasions that he goes as long as he possibly can without contacting his daughters in an attempt to "start a new life". Once he told a mutual friend he wasn't going to contact his daughters unless they contacted him first. Once when I asked him for money for his daughter's braces he said, "what's in it for me?". He's threatened many times to leave the country to avoid any financial responsibility to his family. He stopped doing things with his daughters long before he moved out, instead preferring to stay home alone to visit porn sites and chat with his internet girlfriend. When he moved out he didn't even take any pictures of his daughters or the presents they had just gotten him for Christmas... Oh but they're not supposed to feel dumped, huh? Why not, because an adulterer entrenched in fog stupidly asserts otherwise? I happen to know for a fact my daughters DO feel dumped and it's NOT because I suggested it to them but because they're father did in fact dump US.

Well some parents may "dump" their kids, but not all do. My FMM would never "dump" his child and has always chose to be financially responsible for them.

ANY parent who ignores their wedding vows by committing adultery is failing to give proper consideration to the welfare of the children.
So in that sense they are dumping their children by putting an affair as a higher priority than their children.

I disagree. However, I respect your opinion and your right to have and express it without being judgemental or belittling you. I believe a parent can be a parent w/ or w/out being married. Single moms do it all the time. There are also may people that do divorce and manage quite well to co-parent their children.

You adulterers expect us betrayed spouses to shush the kids up, coerce them to act happy or else you'll accuse us of 'suggesting' (my husband prefers calling it 'brainwashing'). You're doing exactly what I was talking about: placing expectations and blaming.

No, I am not. You are putting words in my posts that are not there. FMM'sw daughter is young. However, if she were 15 and expressed a dislike of me I would respect that. I would not force myself on her, or expect her to shush up. That may be what your H is doing, but not me.
How dare you accuse me of abusing my children! I would never show so little concern for a child as to commit adultery with their father and break up their family. And I would never subject my children to the abuse of expecting them to pretend the things that's breaking their hearts is OK, expect them to stifle their true feelings just so daddy and his adulterers could feel good about themselves.
Now I have accused you of abusing your children - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Please go back and reread my post. I stated if a Parent forces their child to act a certain way or makes them feel guilty for feeling a certain way, then that is abuse. You stated you do not do that. So where have I stated you abuse your kids???????? No, I am not. You are putting words in my posts that are not there. FMM'sw daughter is young. however, if she were 15 and expressed a dislike of me i would respect that. i would not force myself on her, or expect her to shush up. That may be what your H is doing, but not me.
I think it's silly the way adulterers pretend to believe each other. They're really not fooling anyone - not even each other. You know he's lying to you about how bad things were at home but you sleep with him anyway; he knows you really don't believe or need his lies in order to sleep with him. You both know what you are and what you're doing is wrong. It's just 'let's pretend we're decent people who aren't really doing anything wrong, anything that's harming anyone else'. So you try to convince yourselves that somehow there's some honor in it, that you can respect yourselves and each other in spite of what you know about each other's low morals. Frankly I think the pretense that adulterers immerse themselves in is one of the most pathetic things about their sordid affairs. It's not the sort of embarrassing self-delusion I'd ever want to get caught indulging in! LOL He gets to pretend he's a victim of the meanies at home and is only committing adultery because he was driven to it... She gets to pretend she's a lady whose only sin is trusting him, she didn't break up a family, the family didn't appreciate him... And everyone else is murmering 'midlife crisis' LOL

LOL - I agree, how pathetic. We rarely, if ever talked about his W. I am also glad to see what few things he did tell me were true as I have since had confirmation.


Formerly Confused
I honestly don't know what to say to your post. You are comparing an actual physical disability that is not capable of restoration to matters of the heart. I am stating the fact as they are in MY case only. These 2 are both happier now that they have broken up. She was unhappy when they were together. I haven't gathered this from just him, but her as well.
Can't you accept that every marriage is not ordained from the heavens above? If 2 people totally uncompatible get drunk and wed in Vegas one night and then conceive a child that same night - then find out after living together for 2 months that they generally dislike each other etc. Is it such a crime to leave the M and start over? Both of them had OP in their lives. I am not saying it to justify things, but clearly meither of them felt their life was on the top shelf together.

I can accept that sometimes ok mariages are torn apart by an OP who is relentless and goes after a WS for their own selfish reasons. Can't you accept that sometimes 2 people are not meant to be? Would you rather they have suffered for 6 years or so then split up?

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: tewjtm ]</small>