Your suggestions are very similar to the suggestions I have gotten from my counselor. It is just hard because I love her and want to share things with her. And today I found out that layoffs are immenent and I will be affected. I seems like it all goes wrong at the same time. My W is also going to be laid off in the next 3-6 months as well.

Thanks, Free,

You are always full of good advice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think I am feeling desperate at times, but I am feeling much better about leaving this in God's hands. I don't think that I am looking desperate to her, and that is why I have been turning to this forum to ask what people (especially) have to say.

I know what I need to work on, and I am constantly thinking what I did a good job of in many situations, and compare it to how I would have previously reacted.

I think that this will be much easier once I have moved out, because just being in our house reminds me of things that make me sad (not too sad, I just have my sad moments at times)

I have been doing a lot more praying, and that has helped me a lot. I think I am doing much better about being positive, kind and patient in just about every situation, and I know that this is where I need to do the most work.

You are right, I know that I did not put forth the effort, or actually blew it, by not knowing how absolutely important this was to my wife. Thanks for being hard on me when I need it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sorry to hear about your situation jkotz, which I'm sure is very rough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> As SoTired2000 says: A great song to think about is 38 Special's "Hold on Loosely"... It actually in some ways helped me during the separation - "hold on loosely but don't let go, if you cling too tightly, you're gonna lose control"....

I think this is the key, and actually what we all do wrong. Your wife may have felt controlled by you giving her an ultimatum. She may have simply been trying to do the opposite of what you asked her, so that she doesn't feel like she is being controlled. This would be my take on this.

Mike's comments: BE STRONG!!!!!!!If you want to "talk" to your wife, turn on the computer and write to us here instead! are perfect. It is a great (productive) outlet for sharing.

Good question about sharing marriage comments, sam_teddie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My wife agreed to see our counselor, but just to tell him what we decided, because as far as he knew until today, we were still working on things, and he was not involved in our decision at all (which kind of puzzled me about my wife's decision.) I told her I just wanted to talk to him about what we had decided and maybe to understand more about what we are each feeling, and how to best move on for now. I did make suer she knew that I had no intention of working on anything in counseling, just to update him on our decision.

Thanks again for sharing, everyone.

Gregg

<small>[ June 25, 2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>

Just another thought. After looking at you situation and decididng what went wrong and identifying the problems, try to come up with solutions and a plan of action and focus on them. Which is precisly what you guys seem to be doing. Try not to get caught up in focusing on the problems everyday. I think when we focus on our misery and problems they just get bigger or appear to be larger than life.

So many people get focused on what the other did wrong or is doing wrong and let it consume them. Or maybe just beat themselves up for what they did wrong or have regrets about. I think (just my opinion) that women are more guilty of this than men.

Men always want to "fix" everything. But first they need to really know what the problem is. I used to, and still do, just like to talk about what's bugging me to my H and he always wanted or felt like I was wanting him to fix the problem. I just wanted to talk about it and get it off my chest. Then when he didn't know how to fix it , he would get frustrated and grouchy. I thought it was because he didn't want me to talk about it but it was because he felt helpless to do anything about it. We really had to work on communication. I know in your situation (s) you have a ways to go to get back to real communication, but just a thought to keep on the back burner.

Gotta go to work. Have a good day. Good luck with your progress.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you.

Free

Thanks, Free,

Yes, I think that I have done that a lot. I have wanted to fix things and I would feel bad that I couldn't make things easier or better for my wife. (I would do the same thing, and want so bd to fix things and make it easier for my wife.)

I understand that better now.

I am finding a way to let go emotionally, thanks to lots of praying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I noticed yesterday that I didn't seem to really care that much that we are not close anymore. In other words, I don't feel driven to be close to her. I didn't even feel like I had to give her a big hug before going to bed. (Not sure if she even wants a big hug.) As I was about to go to bed she stopped me and asked me if I wanted a hug. I huggged her but it didn't really mean much to me, nor did I feel like I needed this from her. I was even kind of feeling that it's not that big of a deal if our marriage isn't restored.

I also think that she is trying to get everything in order for us to divorce eventually. For example, she was asking me if I would eventually take over a particular bill (student loans I think), since she is taking over a comparable debt that we have. I told her (which I probably shouldn't have) "You sure seem to be prepared for everything, it seems." She has also asked if one of our cars could be in her name and the other in my name, and she even went to pick up a title transfer form for this.

It kind of makes me think that by getting through this emotional detachment, that I will cause me to not have a desire to become close to her again in the future <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Is this a bad thing? Should I pray to God to not let me let go this much. It seems that this must be gradually withdrawing more and more units from her love bank balance account with me. Maybe this is what happens from letting go emotionally.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Gregg

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>

GreggC,

I to have struggled with this thought. I, however, realize that it will not happen for me. I feel stronger today that I do love my wife and want it to work out than when I tried to focus on her.

It remain incredibly difficult to not talk with her or call her or email her, but I know that I must heal before I can return. I must focus on finding a life where I do not look to her for comfort and healing. I must do that for myself and like you said, I feel already (eventhough it has been only a few days) that I can go on with this for a while because I WILL SURVIVE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Like you mentioned, I can talk with her and not feel as disappointed. That is a huge change and one I have enjoyed. I need emotional seperation to survive and I am getting it.

All, Thanks for the support. I’ve set up counseling and on my way to get my life back on track.

Anyways. I do see myself starting to be at peace with my wife’s decision but I think she is still trying to string me along and hold on to me. She says she wants a divorce but yet she called me last night to see how I was doing and called me 2 times today and asked how my night was.

What are you’re thoughts and that should I break all ties with her and not answer the phone? I have not been perusing her for fear of pushing her away. However when she comes to her calling me what should I do? I so badly want to talk those opportunities and try to fix everything but I haven’t. I just give her enough information that I sill have hope for us.

Thanks

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

If it were me, it sounds like neither of you want this divorce (at least not yet.)

I would probably just take things very slow right now. Tell her that you still care about her, but that is not fair for her to call you all the time and hurt you if she does not want to be together.

Certainly she should understand that if she cares about you still.

Gregg

Hey Gregg,
How's it going? It relly sounds like you are on the right track and I just wanted to offer you that encouragement.
Free

Thanks, Free.

Well, I'm about to moveout in a couple of days. It has been really uncomfortable at home. Our talks have been the way one would be kind polite to a stranger. Does this mean that everything has been lost?

I have been advised by others where I posted in the general questions group (in the infidelity section-don't know how I got started there) that I should be concerned about an affair. Some have said that her just all of a sudden giving up like this, and witholding sex might indicate this.

What do you think? (I hadn't even even in my wildest dreams even thought about this?)

Gregg

Hi Gregg,
Yes I suppose that could be a possibility. But I still say don't give up yet. I probably displayed all signs of having an affair when I got fed up, but I wasn't even considering it.

I do know that the more secure you come to be with yourself, it will help, no matter the outcome of all of this. That is about all you can do at this point. It is also the most important thing you can do for yourself in this life. Besides having a relationship with God of course.
It is a great feeling to know you are your friend rather than your enemy, if that makes any sense.

I had gotten my own bank account and done a lot of things preparing for the big split and I was not having an affair. But like I said, it is a possibility.

I think it it were me I would just ask her if there was someone else. It can't hurt at this point. I know the answer could be not what you want to hear, but what's the use pretending at this point?
Let me know what you think and how it goes.
Free

Hi Free:

You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it it were me I would just ask her if there was someone else. It can't hurt at this point. I know the answer could be not what you want to hear, but what's the use pretending at this point?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am afraid to ask her at this point. I have heard from others that this could just make her feel insulted (if it is not true.) I have also heard from others that I should do some snooping around to find out on my own, because if she is in fact having an A, then she would be more likely to hide it from me, so that it would make it even harder to find out.

What do you think?

Also, is it bad that I am the one to move out. I offered (since I knew she was really unhappy together), and should she have been the one that moved out, since she is the one that wants us to separate and the one who wants to give up on this marriage? Also, she suggested staying here, because she is the only one of us who could afford this house on her own.

What do you think about this?

Finally I did find a piece of paper in her billfold with the name of an attorney and the price he was charging ($170 I think). Is this devastating news, or is this just one more thing like what you did to prepare for your "big split".

Thanks,

Gregg

<small>[ June 28, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>

Hi again,
Well the $170 fee to an attorney sounds like a consult fee since it was so small. I did see an attorney and decided I would do it without one since it was a $3000 retainer fee. I even bought a do it yourself kit.

If she is having an affair, it puts a little different spin on your situation than her just being too tired to work on it. It will probably take her longer to come around, if she does. I don't think it is right or wrong for you to move out since she wanted the divorce. If you can't afford to keep the house especially. You want to be set as good as possible and if you are financially strapped then that is not good.

I agree that it may insult her if you ask and she is NOT having an affair. My H asked me the same thing. It did not insult me, I simply told him no I was not and never have. It didn't make me upset that he asked because a lot of signs pointed in that direction. Withdrawl, seperate accounts, I got my own cell phone from a different company. I was simply preparing to take care of myself.

I did my fair share of snooping around when things did not add up because my H had lied to me so many times in the past.

The odd thing is, now I totaly trust him. Believe me he has given me every reason not to in the past. One of the reasons I trust him so much is this is something I need to be able to do to keep from driving myself nuts. If he ever breaks that trust then that will be a different story.

My heart goes out to everyone going through these problems. It is almost the worst thing that can happen in your life. Not the worst but almost. What makes it so bad is all of the unknown and uncertainties.

Hang in there and keep praying. Consider the what ifs but don't let them consume you. One thing that helped me before I had totaly decided I wanted a divorce was to have an alternative plan that I could live with if things didn't work out. Some might say that it woukld jepordize what I was trying to accomplish, but just the opposite came to be.

It's funny still to me that I never got what I was after until I completly let go of it and gave up. I was even ok with that choice and then for some reason God saw fit for me to have it back without all of the problems.

I don't understand it and I certainly don't question it but I am extremly grateful for it.

God Bless your journey and where He leads you.
Free

<small>[ June 28, 2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Free ]</small>

Well I have no signs that she is having an A. Someone on another forum just told me not to rule that out since she just so duddently wanted to give up and withdraw. I have been doing the same.

Ok, I will go ahead with the move out next week, and keep thinking if I should ask her point blank if she is having an A.

I have tried to not ask her anything about where she is going, nor ask her to do anything together. I have tried to not tell her where I am going either. Our talks are limited to what is happening (sometimes) with my son, and about somthing that is on tv at the time, and sometimes watching tv together.

She has said about a week or two ago that she really needs lots of space and told me about 1- 1 1/2 weeks ago that she can't even consider any emotional involvement (even as a friend) until she gets this space she needs (me moving out.)

Free, if you were in her place, would you want me to ask you anything, go out of my way to do any nice things (like make dinner, tell you you look nice, tell you that I apreciate what you are doing-like cleaning up or doing laundry?) In other words anything that builds love units (that normally one would work on in a marriage) I feel that I should just be really private, and expect her to be that way, an simply talk about simple things that happen to pop into my mind when we happen to be in the same room.

This is one of the hardest things for me right now. What kind of things should I talk about, and should I ever even ask her what time she will be back, or if she had fun, or where she went? I do not feel comfortable asking these kind of things, since she probably does not want to have anything to do with me right now.

I have not even made any mention of "us" and our status (she and I) for quite some time, nor do I plan to. What if she brings it up, i.e. tells me she wants to go ahead with a divorce? What should I say?

I'm scared of what to talk about and what to say to her for the most part right now.

Thnaks again.

Gregg

Boy that's a tough question and I sure don't want to lead you wrong here. I can only say how I woud have reacted at that time in my relationship. As far as my H telling me he appreciated anything I did at that time, I think it would have irritated me. I would have taken it as too little too late at the time, with possible alterior motives.

I think if she flat out asks for the divorce, you could do what my H did. He said he didn't want it and never wanted it. We talked for a while and he continued to "love bust" during the conversation, which by the way was the first time we had talked in a very long time.I told him that was why I couldn't do this anymore and he walked off. He cried all day, which did nothing as far as making me feel bad or soften me up. Later that night when he came to me and very humbly asked WHAT did he need to do to be able to stay and work it out, I felt respect for him for the first time in a long time. Mostly because I knew how hard it was on his pride to ask me at all. I also knew at that point I was more important to him than his pride when it came down to losing one or the other.

I was very blunt and to the point because I knew it would only work for me at this point if he could follow through with my expectations. Again, I don't mean to sound like a know it all or brag about the fact that I layed it on the line for him, I just knew what all I had been through and what I could live with at this point. I could not go back to how it had been and I still stand by that decision and he knows it.

I don't know if this would work, but it's a long shot. For me, I didn't feel like I could mend the relationship with all the baggage it had with it but I was willing to let it all go and start a new relationship. Of course we never really forget, but I was able to let it go, completly and start new. It was easier in my mind than rehashing and settling all the old issues. In reality nothing is really different, just the way I chose to look at it. I still say I have been married 22 years, because I have, we were never divorced. I don't know if you follow me here but it is just a different way of looking at it.

But back to before we settled it.....
He got to where he didn't ask me where I was going or what I was doing and I did the same for him, mostly because I didn't care. He cared but he was afraid to ask me just as you are. I tried talking to him about us and he just blew up so I quit. But if he had EVER come to me and said I am so sorry things have gooten so far out of whack, is there anything I can do to change them?, I would have melted at his feet. It is what i really wanted all along but he just couldn't do it. For some reason he wanted to force me into submission to him. If not physically force then force by with-holding what he new I needed. It was like I had to get in line and do what he wanted. Well, I'm not made that way and the harder he tried the more I didn't want to.

I would say there is going to come a moment when it's now or never to tell her how you really feel before you go through with the divorce. I just don't know about the timing. I say don't push, give some space but certainly don't wait till it's too late.

Pray for wisdom. God says he gives to whomever asks and he certainly has given it to me when I needed it. Follow your gut feelings, they are usually right. If you have gotten right with God by asking his forgiveness for your shortcomings and tresspasses and accepted that forgiveness then go with confidence. The Bible says that God does not even hear the prayers of a man who treats his wife badly...or something to that effect, so take up the issues with the one who can really do something about it. Forgive youself!

It's coming down to brass tacks and it's time to get serious. Not that you aren't but I would spend a lot of my time in prayer and listening to where God leads you.

Oddly enough, everytime I prayed it seemed I got the same answer. It was "Leave him" At first I didn't want to leave him and fought it all the way. Then when I gave in, I got it all back. It's kind of like God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son and he was going to be obedient and do it and then God told him not to and provided the sacrifice and spared his son. I guess it all boils down to obedience to God. Listening to what he is telling us. It was hard for me to believe God was telling me to leave because it goes against his word. He never intended for it to happen he just wanted me to listen and be obedient.

You can never make up through sacrifice what you loose through disobedience.

I'll check back later.
Free

Thanks, Free.

As you probably already know, my wife has been really clear and has said that she doesn't intend on working on anything anymore with us. She did however agree to see our counselor. However....I prefaced this with, "Do you think maybe we could see our counselor to at least tell him what we have decided to do, and some strategies to at least get through everything."

So tomorrow, we are meeting with him at 10 am Pacific. (I had previously told her that I thought that our (or her) decision for me to move out and give up should be something that he is in on, since he has been our counselor, and the last he heard,we were still working on things.) I don't want to get in there and have her think I tricked her into going to start working on our marriage again. I was hoping perhaps that he might bring up what he thought of our decision and what we felt about it. I also thought that perhaps he might say, "If Gregg could prove to you over time that he can do these things," (things that maybe he would ask her about that I was or was not doing) "that you have needed for so long, would you be willing to give it another chance."

What do you think I should do when I am in there? I did tell the counselor that we had decided to split and if we could make an appointment to talk to him about this is what I have told him so far. I have been praying a lot today about giving him God's wisdom (I don't know if he is a Christian though) to do the right thing to maybe open her heart, and for me to say the right thing(s)

At this point, I am not planning on laying it on the line, unless it comes up in counseling tomorrow. If so, I think that I will simply do what you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WHAT did he need to do to be able to stay and work it out </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am so sorry things have gooten so far out of whack, is there anything I can do to change them?,
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it so happens that she will not answer this question and simply restates that she needs me to move out and get space and see what happens, and that is all? Im not sure if she would even commit working on us, even if I put it to her as you have stated.

Would you push, "Well, what if I did all of these things... would you then be willing to work it out? Maybe if it gets to here, I should simply say ok, and move out and give it some time before doing anything more?

Thanks again,

Gregg

Hi Gregg,

I did read all of your other posts and it seems your wife may be at her stopping point. People do change their minds somtimes but right now you it doesn't look like there is much you can do but wait and see what she decides. Except for working on youself of course. It may not change the outcome at all but you will be more in tune with you and the stronger you get the better of you will be.
Take care of yourself. Don't let your emotions and regrets get you down so far that you have a new set of problems for youself. Everybody makes mistakes and sometimes we get the chance to correct them and go on and sometimes we just have to learn a hard lesson and not repeat them.

Seek God and his plan for your life.
Good luck
Free

Thanks for your support, Free!!

We met with our counselor, and unfortunately she has no desire to continue things.

She wants me to still be her friend, bu that means giving her space and not contacting her for a while. I think she gave up about a year ago, back when we almost separated.

Not much I can do. She just doesn't think that we were really ever compatible nor right for each other. I disagree, but that probably isn't the issue. She thinks that the dynamics of our marriage never were right, nor does she think that they ever could, nor does she ever think that she can ever go back and feel anything for me.

It really hurts, but I guess that next time (if there is a next time), communication needs to start right away in a relationship, and intervention probably needs to start immediately. I don't know. I just am of the opinion that just about any couple can be compatible.

How do youever move on, and have hope that there will ever be someone else? It is tough being 42 and already being dumped by two former wives.

Is is ever worth waiting to see if things change, or is it usually best to just go ahead with a divorce if someone gives up on you? If I have to, I guess (maybe I should) just concentrate of shutting down all of my feelings for her, because it seems that this would be the easiest way. Why does someone just give up, someone that is a pretty devout Christian, eve though things have not bee going well, when one partner has finally gotten his act together to do something about his problems?

Thanks again. I hope that I don't lose touch with you.

I am really glad things have turned out for you, and I hope you guys don't give up on each other.

God Bless You!!

Gregg

p.s. I think that I will also post this as a new topic