Ok, you think I should ask him how he plans on working on the marriage? Then I should let him know by when he should move out of her house?

Is that the right way to go about things?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Isn't it too late to do this, maybe I should have done this when he was talking about wanting to work things out. Or maybe I should wait until he brings it up again? I know one of these days he's going to say this to me again. Probably when we have to go to court again. Or one of these days when he wants to talk about things.

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: STBXWife ]</small>

STBX,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, you think I should ask him how he plans on working on the marriage?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! He said; He would leave OW and work it out. So, I think you should ask him; "What is your plan to work on our M?" Have him give you specifics. What he's going to do and when. They have to be tangible and be able to be verified. He doesn't need to answer you right then, but he should get back to you in short order. Don't get angry with his answer, just repeat it and thank him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then I should let him know by when he should move out of her house?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should tell him (again) you don't want to live like you have been and one thing you require as proof of him wanting to work on your M is that he needs to move out and not see OW any more. Then ask him how long he needs to do get that done. If it is longer than you think he needs, then tell him how long he has. You need to take into consideration where he will move (will he move back with you or willhe need to find another place). He will need enough time to do which ever. He also needs to know that you still love him and you will be safe for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that the right way to go about things?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want to stop the rollercoaster ride? Do you want to know what he's thinking? Yes, his actions will tell you what he's thinking. But, he needs to know what actions will prove to you that he's serious. Otherwise he's left to guess and The Fog tends to skew one's thinking. He may be thinking just telling you he wants to work it out is action enough. Set the expectations and there will be no questions or misinterpretations. What you and I might think would be obvious is lost on someone in the fog. Years ago, when my M was in trouble I made changes and thought I made the right changes; come to find out it wasn't the changes my W expected. She had an A. If I had known what I had to do, we'd been a lot better off and I wouldn't be here writing to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't it too late to do this, maybe I should have done this when he was talking about wanting to work things out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you know to do this when he was talking about wanting to work it out?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or maybe I should wait until he brings it up again? I know one of these days he's going to say this to me again. Probably when we have to go to court again. Or one of these days when he wants to talk about things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have been keeping a good relationship with God I think you will know when to bring it up. If not, wait until he calls next about your daughter. I doubt I'd call him regarding the M. You need to stay in Plan-B and work on you. Keep praying.

Bless you.

S&C

Steadfastandcommitted,

Wouldn't the WS feel *pressured* if one were to follow your advice. Doing the above could be interpreted by the WS as trying to *control* him and *pressuring* him to make his choice.

Surely this will make the WS feel *trapped* again.

As much as this hurts I think it's best to give the WS *space* and *time* to make their choice. We cannot force them nor pressure them to make a choice. They have to want to come home themselves and will do so in their own time.

JMO anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's what I was thinking.

I don't want to feel like I'm PRESSURING him. Even though I want to, I don't want to seem like that to him.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

When we pressure them we know what happens. They tend to flee in the opposite direction again and any thoughts that our WS's may have about wanting to come home will be soon dismissed by them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

In trying to pressure and control our WS's and in more or less forcing them to make a choice, we may very well be delaying the reconciliation process/or perhaps destroying any chance of reconciliation.

I think it's best to give them more time and space without the pressure.

However, if your WS mentions reconciliation again, then you should perhaps take the opportunity then to mention what your expectations would be of him and under what circumstances you would be prepared to reconcile.....

ie: no contact with OW, counselling, etc, etc....

He will call again with mention of reconciliation, no doubt about it. He is obviously still very confused and isn't sure of what he wants. He needs the time and space in which to make his OWN choice and a choice that he ALONE has made.

If he returns then you will know for sure that reconciliation is what he TRULY wants and not something he was perhaps pressured into. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: EdensSecret ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quoted by STBXWife

I told him look, I don't know whether to believe you or not, you've said this before, how do I know if you're telling me the truth or not. How do I know you're not lying. He said that he would prove it to me. He says that he'll leave her and move out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you remember this? All your doing is asking him the details. He set an expectation that wasn't met. So what do you do? Have him clarify and give you details.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quoted by EdensSecret

However, if your WS mentions reconciliation again, then you should perhaps take the opportunity then to mention what your expectations would be of him and under what circumstances you would be prepared to reconcile....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny, I think that's what I suggested.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is stupid. I'm pissed. I just wish that I didn't have to talk to him at all. I do so good when I don't have to talk to him!! I'm so mad. He's buying time with her. His words don't mean sh** to me!!! I want him to do something about it. Why say anything at all then? Does he expect me to wait for him till he's done having his fun?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I would ever leave myself guessing about this. If I've done everything I knew I could do, then my W would have to make a choice.

My suggestion was to help you to get some control over the rollercoaster ride. If you think you have to ride it out that's ok. Not an easy road to travel believe me. Either way, I'll keep praying for you.

Keep God close.

S&C

STBXW, From my own experience, I agree pretty much 100% with Peachy. But, as S&C pointed out, your H is not Jethro or my drunk and addicted STBXH. But the things your H does and says are all too familiar. I think what Peachy is trying to point out, based on the mistakes she made, which by the way are the same mistakes I made, is that you have to choose what to do based on YOU, not on what effects you think it might have on your WH.

As Peachy recommended, focus on self-improvement. Make the changes in yourself that need to be made, for YOU, so that your next relationship, whether it be with your WH or someone else, will be better. I second the book recommendations, especially the Harley's book, since this is MB! I haven't read all of Dobson's book, just quotes, but liked what he said (that Peachy already referred to) about how unattractive we make ourselves by being victims and how we should act the way we acted when they were pursuing us, that is, confident and happy, with a life of our own. If you don't feel that way, act "as if" you do. Sometimes if you do that long enough, you actually start to believe it.

As much as I wish things had turned out differently for me, at this point, I'm glad the uncertainty is over. I know all too well the pain of what you're going through. My H told me over and over that he wanted to work things out, he told me he wanted to grow old with me, but just wasn't ready to come home yet, he even went to several different marriage counselors with me and a marriage therapy weekend. He lied, telling me he was living alone when he was really living with the MOW all along. And I realized, like Peachy that I was addicted to his crazy rollercoaster life. I was just another character in his movie. I wasn't living my own life.

I was diagnosed with breast cancer almost 5 years ago and this experience with infidelity, separation, and divorce has many similarities. Both shook my world off it's foundations. Both fundamentally changed my view of myself. I wouldn't wish either experience on anybody, but I've grown a lot because of each experience.

I agree with S&C about not taking anyone else's advice verbatim, but praying about it and allowing God's guidance to become clear to you. You can't figure it out alone. This is the time for faith, for prayer, and for patience. Let God carry you, you're never alone.

Im running on empty right now. Yesterday my WH had my son all day. Well I find out by my son that he was at the OW house. AAARRRGGG!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I'm sorry but there is something really wrong with my WH, mentally!!!! Is he mentally ill or what? He needs counceling.

Well I called my BIL and asked him to call his brother and tell him that I needed to talk to him ASAP!
By this time I had already left a message on his voicemail at work.
Saying something to this effect:
"You know you say you want to work things out and then you take our son to her house. I'm sorry X but, when the temp orders come through we're going to follow them strictly and that's it. I tried, but you find it nessasary to take your son around her. You'll be able to see him every other week and that's it. I'm sorry X, but I have no other choice. Sorry."
(Which he still hasn't heard b/c he'll be back at work tonight)

Well my WH called about 30 to 40 min. later.

And I asked him, why did you take our son to her house. And he asked, who told you. And I said, he did. He told me he was playing on the side walk. And he said that he just went to the house to pick up some money and that he didn't even get down. Which is a lie b/c my son told me who was there at the house.

Then he says, I'm hearing rumors that you are seeing someone. I was like what, who's saying that, your girlfriend. Those are rumors.

Then he says we'll talk about this tommorrow. I said, wait I just want to know why you feel like you need to take him to her house and he said let me call you back. (Which means I don't want to talk about it we're going to hang up.) I said ok and hung up.

I knew he wouldn't call back and he didn't.

I ended up calling him voice mail again and left another message.

I said, "I'm not seeing anyone. Even though we haven't been together for months now, I know in my heart that I'm married. I'm not seeing anyone nor have I seen anyone. And like we use to say a long time ago I swear on our love ( we use to say this when we were in high school, stupid huh?). I swear it on my kids, I'm not seeing anyone. I don't want to complicate things anymore by adding another person to the situation. And those rumors are just that, rumors."

I'm just really fustrated with everything. I dont want him thinking that I'm seeing someone when I'm not. I don't want to hurt my chances of reconciliation. I do go out and I do have girlfiends that I do go out with but I dont date or have been looking.

I cried myself to sleep last night. I felt this emptiness in my heart. I'm truely hurting by all this. But I can't make him come back and I know that. I wish he would be true to his word and do something about it.

I'm not having a good day!! Feeling really down.
<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

STBX Wife,

Wake up ! Your H is using you emotionally and mentally. My WW is trying to do the same thing. She deines everything etc. ASK YOURSELF ONE QUESTION, WHY DO YOU WANT THIS PUNK BACK? Has he shown any redeeming qualities since this has gone down? You are not a doormat, and he probably backed down at court because he was scared he would lose his fallback position. Let the OW have him, he is worthless! Move forward with your life and forget the scum. There are plenty of good men out there to share your life with. Life is short, dont waste it on losers!

fff,

Welcome to MB. I know you've only been posting for a couple of days and are still in much pain from your own situation. I'm sorry you've had to come here. But....

Maybe you don't understand the issue here. STBX wants to save her M. She doesn't need someone who's acting out of anger from there own situation to confuse her.

The reason people come here is because the want to build their marriages and make them better. That's why it is called "Marriage Builders"

The road to recovery is always a hard one. most M here have only one person that wants to save it. They are willing to read the stuff here and apply them to theirs lives to recover and improve their M.

Even if STBX's M doesn't work out, if she learns things from here, she will know that she did her best and has nothing to be ashamed of, or sorry for. She will walk away a better person, either for Mr. STBX or someone else that will see a more confident person. One that knows what marriage vows are and how to protect them.

MB can be a Godsend for people who want to save their marriages. It can also be a hurtful and confusing place when people let their emotions control what they post without any regard for the consequences to other vulnerable people. Because of the rollercoaster ride they are easily swayed into making decisions that are hasty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> by TMCM

BUT I would caution you to think well before you take any life changing action based on what your feelings are this moment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM gave you this advice on the very first reply on your thread. Great advice for everyone. You know you're very lucky. You have some of the best people at MB helping you through your situation (TMCM, Starf*sh, justawifey to name a few). Wish I had them helping me out a year ago. Listen to them well.

Good luck to you and God bless.

S&C

STBX,

Hey there. I wish you didn't have to go through all this stuff. I wish no-one did. But I want you know that there are people here that care for you and understand the hurt you feel. I know it's not much but I wanted to give you this cyber hug {{{{{{{STBX}}}}}}} and to let you know I'm still praying for ya.

May God bless you and carry you today.

S&C

Thank you Steadfast!!
It does help to know that people do care.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He called just right now and said he was sorry that he took our son to her house. He said that he didn't want to jeperdize the ability to take our son. And he wouldn't do it again!! Sure yeah right, he's said that before!!!!

And kept asking if I was seeing someone!!!!! I was like NO!!!

I'm married. I don't want to see anyone or have been looking for anyone.

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: STBXWife ]</small>

Hang in there. My W tried to deflect things back on to me too. You just gotta see through it.

For me the best way for me to deal with it was to remember what it was like when I had friends trying to kick a drug habit. They really thought they needed the drugs. But they never knew how bad they were for them until they were separated from the drug long enough for them to think clearly.

Have the best 4th of July you can. Keep praying.

S&C

Hi STBX.

Sorry I haven't written in a while but I took some time off and went to the beach with my sister and her friends and their husbands. It felt very strange being the "single" one - but I managed, and it was nice to get away with other people.

I can't write much right now because my WH is bringing the kids back in a few hours but I wanted to check up on you. I'm sorry to see that your WH is making things difficult for you. I know so well what you're going through right now - WH gets your hopes up that things are going to be ok and that this nightmare will eventually end, he makes some strange comments which lead you to believe that things haven't ended with OW, and then he takes your child to OW's house! It's amazing but sadly we are living the same story.

I wish I knew what to tell you to do. I don't. But having lived through this I think I would suggest that you go deeply back into Plan B. Try to pretend that the last week or so (since the court date) didn't happen and that you are in the same mind-set as you were in prior(sad that you were divorcing but moving on and feeling some sense of power and direction about your life). He's jerking you around and keeping you in this state of misery. SO UNFAIR. Only you can get yourself out of it - he won't. Continue as if he hadn't uttered those words in the court room. He hasn't shown you anything yet.

During the period of time when my WH would come back but then contact OW and I'd ask him to leave (this happened several times) I went to my therapist who said that he had developed a pursuer/distancer pattern with me. He couldn't bear to have me out of his sight completely so when he feels me going away, he comes back to pull me in. As soon as he senses that I'm back in the game, he flees again. She told me that I had to break the pattern (or "magnetic field") or that I'd be miserable and she said that once I did it one time, it would be easier each time. After that, my WH said, "Do you think there is any chance for us? (I would normally say, "yes, but you have to give up OW, etc. etc." . He would then go on his merry way knowing that I was still playing the game.) Now I say, "I don't think so. How could I trust you again? You're right our marriage was flawed (and other things he said to me after the A was discovered)"

Now, I'm not saying what I'm doing is working. I most likely will be divorced by Fall. But, it is giving me some peace to move on and not be controlled by his whims and how his A is progressing.

Well, I wrote longer than I intended. I'm thinking of you and will check back later.

DIJ

Well, I don't want to keep posting this...unless it can really help and here I certainly see the perfect couple for this:

I highly recommend you visit www.savemymarriage.com and www.familydynamics.net - They were founded several years ago from Dr. Harley's principals and have saved many thousand marriages through a single weekend seminar for marriages in crisis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dueinjan:

I went to my therapist who said that he had developed a pursuer/distancer pattern with me. He couldn't bear to have me out of his sight completely so when he feels me going away, he comes back to pull me in. As soon as he senses that I'm back in the game, he flees again. DIJ</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this is STBXW'S thread, but thanks for that piece of info dueinjan. Seems my H is playing the pursuer/distancer game too and it sucks:(

S&C...

You have to quite calling him PERIOD. Everytime you call him or his brother or anyone about this, you are relieving him of his obligation to uphold his words. You are trying to control the situation and hold him to his words by 'hovering' over him. You can't. It won't work. You have to let him go and see how he acts on his own. WSs cannot have someone control them. You cannot control him, although you might think you are not. Why are you calling him then? Let him come to you with questions, and then you answer him with the answers that you know about. If he never comes to you asking about your marriage, then you will never need to worry about what he is doing.

Just go about the divorce or separation as you would regularly do. I tell you, I absolutley believe that you will only make yourself miserable, and continue this for some time, until he finally just really pulls the plug on your marriage. THEN you will have to go through this all again.

He doesn't respect you or your marriage. Now I am all for saving marriages. I tried with everything that I had. However, I realized early on that there was nothing that I could do to control what she did. And actually, I realized that I didn't WANT to control her. I wanted a willing PARTNER who thought about me and my boys as an important part of her life. NOT as policemen that kept her in line. I played that part for too long in our marriage. Let him go and see what he does. OR are you willing to take on the burdon of being completely responsible for not only everything that you do, but also for everything that he does?

Because if you continually confront him on these sorts of things WITHOUT him trying to move forward with your marriage, that is all you are doing... You are trying to control him. If he says he 'wants to try' but shows you NO TRYING, then nothing about you calling him will make a difference. However, if you just keep his actions in the back of your mind and then he comes to you, you can then say "Why did you visit her? You said you wouldn't. You have shown me nothing to believe you." And leave it at that. Don't cry and harangue, don't rage and fuss, just let that be the end of it.

If you hang on too tight, then he will feel that you are trying to control him. He will see your crying and harangueing as 'That is the reason I wanted to leave in the first place.' Instead of seeing HIS behavior as causing you pain, he will only see YOUR behavior as causing HIM pain. Just state your peace, and move on. Let him play catch up IF he wants to. You don't have to be cruel or abnoxious, as a matter of fact, a sad look of regret and remorse given with your words would probably affect him more than anything.

But don't do it as a ploy to get him back. It will not work. You must do it for yourself. Because if he is to come back, he must do it on more equal terms. He will not want to come back to someone that is weak and needy. He WON'T come back to relieve your pain. Remember, he knew what he was doing while he did it, and your pain did not enter into his reasoning.

Just don't call him. Hold him to his behaviors, but only bring them up when he approaches you about doing something differently with your marriage. Then ONLY bring them up as why you will or won't do anything differently and leave it at that. Wait for him to take your children to her house, then say 'NO, the agreement states you cannot.' and leave it at that.

I did it all... and I did most of it wrong. But in some ways I am glad that I did. Because I could have continued living with a woman who cared about no one other than herself. I could have continued giving everything and receiving nothing. Now at least I don't have to give everything to her. I get nothing in return, but that is nothing new. Right now, you are giving everything and trying to control everything thinking you have the right to do so. Well, you don't have the right and you don't have the ability. But you can hurt yourself trying.

Thanks everyone!

Well, nothings happened. I went out on Thursday night with a couple of girlfiends of mine. Had a good time and actually got hit on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Found out that my STBXH wanted to take is GF to his aunts house on Thursday night. They were having a bar-b-que and they asked him if he wanted to join them and he asked if he could bring her along. I guess they said yes, but he never showed. This is acording to his cousins wife (my best friend) who was there.

Strange way of trying to work things out!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyways, didn't do much on 4th of july, no $.
My best friend also told me that my STBXH went by her house on 4th of july to see if the kids and I were there. Was originally going to go to her house but decided not to.

So that's my update.

You know I'm just leaving it all in God's hands. I'm done. I think I'm pulling on the brakes of the roller coaster ride and getting off.

Dueinjan- How are you? How's you situation? Keep me posted.

I was thinking about what you wrote earlier about what you're councelor told you. My H is doing just that. He wants to know that I'm still there. In case his R doesn't work with the OW. He knows that I want to work things out and has taken advantage of that. But I don't know how he would react if I told him that I'm done. I don't know if that would push him further away or make him pursue me. If he brings up the whole "wanting to work things out" deal again, I'm just going to say that I don't believe him and his actions speak louder than words and he's only proved that he doesn't want to work things out. And I'm going on with my life with out him. I think I've done everything but tell him it's over between me and him.

At this point I feel like it's over. IF he wants to come back I want him to come back truely wanting to work things out and no more of these half-hearted attemts. I'm ready to move on with out him.

<small>[ July 07, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: STBXWife ]</small>

Hi STBX.

I'm here. I read your post. I feel your pain.

Well the latest on me?...let's see. I told you about showing up at OW's house to collect my children two weeks ago, right? And my WH came by afterward crying about how he was so sad. Well, I stayed off the phone for a week or so but then needed to contact my WH about the schedule for the week of the 4th (legitimate need). I left a nice enough "please call" message. He didn't call right back which means he's with OW. An hour and a glass of wine later. I leave a pretty horrible and somewhat threatening voice message. Turns out he was "out of town" with OW. He calls me the next morning before work and I completely let him have it (not good Plan B behavior, I know). Later I leave a "sorry for my outburst but as you can see, I'm still very angry about this situation." He returns with an "I understand and don't blame you message. I'm sorry. I'm sad, etc."

All this is no good. This is all part of that pursuer/avoider stuff. I'm playing right along. I think my anger lets him know I'm still playing along.

So I went to the beach from Wednesday to Sunday. I had the children for part of the time and we met half-way on Friday and he took them for the weekend (his weekend). When we met to do the exchange, I was nice and civil. The 4th has always been his favorite holiday and we did so many fun things on the 4th. He started reminising a little, I joined but then said, "I have to go now." I did not in any way interfere with him or the children for the rest of the weeekend (Sundays when he has the kids are my danger times).

He returned them to me Sunday at 5. He was looking very sad and pitiful and wanted to look at my lawn mower, etc. but I said "I appreciate it, but some other time." I shut the door and realized that my baby and her Baby Bijorn (front carrier)smelled like perfume!!! My son told me that OW held the baby while he and daddy played putt-putt. They stayed with her the entire weekend.

I felt like calling WH and screaming at him but controlled the impulse. It's SO offensive to me but I had to sit down and think...I don't think the children are being harmed and are probably actually beeing cared for better with two adults rather than just WH in his dark and gloomy apartment. I know how hard it is to take care of two tiny ones by yourself (thanks a lot WH).

Instead I logged in here and looked for you, STBX.

Here's the deal. WH seems really sad and has been saying to me, "tell me, BS, what you want me to do?" But I won't tell him what to do any more. I did this too many times. I did much of the heavy lifting in our marriage while he acted like an adolescent for a lot of the time. He can either stand up and be the man I need him to be now or he can continue to be the victim and let life just sweep him along. From everything I read, recovery is terribly difficult, it seems like there is a chance only if both parties are really willing to make it happen. I'm not driving this ship anymore. Unless something were to drastically change between now and August, I plan on filing for divorce and not look back knowing that I did what I could to save this marriage.

One night during these calls I said "I want a man who will stick with me through good times and bad -- through cancer, bankruptcy, drug addicttion, the death of a child (God forbid)- or whatever life might hand us. You've shown me that you cannot be that man. You've shown me that when you line me up next to another certain woman, that I'm not the one you choose." He mumbled, "I can be that man." Sorry but a half-hearted mumble doesn't prove anything to me (i didn't say this but it's what I thought).

It's rotten knowing that we had a good marriage or at least a redeemable marriage that could have been saved and that two children could have grown up in an intact family, but it takes two to make a marriage work, right? I still love WH very much and I don't know what to do with all of the memories from the past or all the dreams for the future, but I guess I just file them away in a compartment of my head like you do when you graduate from college or some other life altering event.

When I was at the beach house, someone had left a book called "A Return to Love" or something like that. I started reading it and should get a copy but the part that really stuck in my head was the parts about acting only with love and forgiveness. I decided that I would treat my WH only with love from now on (defined for me as gentleness, compassion, diginity, and respect). That's what kept me from acting out when my baby smelled like OW. He deserves it as a human, even if he made what I see to be mistakes - according to the book, I should not judge, so I shouldn't even call them mistakes. I should surrender to God's will. This is tough for me to do --- surrender. But I'm trying.

This is the toughest thing we will ever have to go through -- I truely believe this. Hang in there. I don't know the answers. No one does. I don't want my WH back unless he want willing to move the earth and moon to have me back (this wasn't the case in prior months - I was begiing for crumbs). But now I believe that I deserve to be placed first before any other woman in any relationship that I'm in - now or in the future. Otherwise, I'd rather be alone with my children. I've learned that this is possible too.

Sorry for rambling STBX - thanks for letting me unload these thoughts.

Hi STBX. I went back and read your post again. You were talking about how your WH might react if you told him that it was really over and didn't want him back.

My WH and I would have these conversations and he would say "how could we even begin to rebuild this?" And I would pull out the books and the maps and the plans and the MC appointment book (and, well, you get the picture).

I remember vividly, after being burned too many times, WH said, "would you even want me back?" I said, "no, I don't think I would now." He was visibly taken aback and repeated the words to himself.

Notice, he would never say, "I want to come back." It was always a question posed to me about my feelings towards the situation. There was always abiguity about his feelings.

So, here's my thinking towards my own situation -- I've got two feet planted in divorce court anyway -- why not.

You say, I don't know if it will drive him away or make him pursue me. My boss says, the definintion of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. You were sitting in court -- he hasn't left OW -- what do you have to lose? (warning: I am in no way qualified to say these things)

Well, my WH is probably not up to the challenge anyway so he'll give up. But I want and man who will fight for his marriage now (my standards have improved lately). So if he doesn't, he doesn't.