</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You say, I don't know if it will drive him away or make him pursue me. My boss says, the definintion of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. You were sitting in court -- he hasn't left OW -- what do you have to lose? (warning: I am in no way qualified to say these things) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know Dueinjan, I don't have anything to lose. In my eyes I've already lost my husband and my marriage. He thinks that I'll wait. He's stringing me along and I'm alowing it to happen. That's the problem. I've got to let him know that I'm not waiting, I'm going on with my life with out him. I've never said this to him and I THINK it'll freak him out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I have nothing to lose. If he wants to work it out,fine, then prove it. If he says, go on with out me, fine maybe even better for me & the kids.

I know that he's going to regret it. One day he's gonna think about what we had and he's gonna regret leaving and regret not being there for the kids. I KNOW HE'S GONNA REGRET IT. But that's what he has to live with not me, I know that I did my best to try to work it out.

That's how I feel too. Yes, he will regret it. Yes, he is making a big mistake. Yes, you and your childrens lives are being affected by his mistake. But you cannot save him from the mistakes he's making even if they adversly affect you and your children too.

He's going to test you. Mine does still from time-to-time. He tries to see if I still have any hope and I still say "no." We'll end up divorced and he'll say ,"well, I tried to come back but you wouldn't have me anymore." I'm not going to buy it. I was there too. If you really wanted to save your marriage you'd do more than occasionally float questions out there.

Haven't you done more, STBX, to save your marriage? Haven't I? Let's see if they will? If not, we were geting a divorced anyway.

Been at beach too.

Thoughts here. These are important from a woman who lived the same crap you are living and made it through to the other side.
1)there is no winner in the pursuer/avoider. It's like being a hamster running on a little wheel and hoping you can really get somewhere. It won't happen.
2)They are being enabled. And being loving all the time is not good...Do you reward good or bad behavior in kids? It is reinforcing their bad behaviors. I only did the plan A thing for about 6 mos. and it almost killed me totally. They are takers and will take and take and take and expect you to give more if you keep up this and do a plan B.
3)Your stbxh needs to know that in many divorce decrees children aren't allowed overnight visits with person of opposite sex under same roof when kids are around so OW will have to get that through thick head and so will foggy stbxh. Show him legally or better yet, hit him legally with a big judges gavel ok?
4)You can cry and moan but it's not going to suddenly go away and we can't wish it away. They screwed up. They destroyed a family and a marriage.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...
5)DO YOU STBXW HAVE A FIRM PLAN IN PLACE? I mean, if you deep down aside from all the anger and crap want to save your marriage then do you have a plan? Are you doing a good plan A right now? Have you read LMBT by Dobson? Have you read SAA by Harley? Have you decided when you need to switch to plan B? If you do NOT HAVE A FIRM PLAN then there can be no progress.

And finally
6)in the end...all of our actions are the only things we can control. We can wish they'd change...WS that is. but it's their choice to change or not too. Mine chose not too. And he's fighting to get restraining order lifted because I REFUSE TO HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH HIM PERIOD. I don't have to. And if I do, it will be about child or him not sticking to the legal proceedings. That's it. He will not get away with being the distance controller. He wants to get into the stuff of my life and still control me. No way. And it's my life now. They will not change unless they want to. And living around and under same roof with horrid enablers will not help reconciliation I can tell you.

So watch his actions. He is classic. Saying one thing...Being all sad in appearance but his actions...like asking to take OW over to relatives
home for the fourth and having the baby carrier smell like OW is saying that HE DOESN'T CARE WHAT HE DOES TO YOU OR THE KIDS. IT IS A SLAP IN THE FACE EXCEPT HE IS PRETENDING TO NOT SLAP SO HARD. Remember that. His act of pretending to be sorry is just that. He's not sorry OR THE IDIOT WOULDN'T DO IT. It's simple enough. HE's a big boy. He does what he wants to. Like the OW is some puppet master pulling all his strings. My x is a controller. He orchestrated things to where he could have what he wanted and by that time he knew I would only stand for committment and no OW whatsoever. He wasn't man eenough to do what he had to do.

And even now, xH is trying to say that I "don't forgive" and that I "am about the past" but it is what it is. He wants me to wake up and suddenly decide I do want to be his "friend" and that we can be friendly "co parents" and I will go shopping with OW and that maybe one day I will get so happy with things I'd join in on other things with them....Not gonna happen.

Either he plays or he pays ok? And you cannot control what he does. But YOU CAN CONTROL WHO SEES THE KIDS AND WHO'S SPENDING THE NIGHT IN FRONT OF THE KIDS. As their mom, you control the kids and you. You have that power. You just cannot do anything to your idiot stbxh.

I say do a good plan A and it sounds like you sure have done that already. Next comes a firm plan B along with a very cool plan B letter sent along with papers showing that you intend to go along with this divorce. And it should be made clear to everybody (including the enabling relatives) why you are doing this. Then I told his parents. It was kinda a goodbye and let them know not to enable him but they did it anyway (they said one thing and did another...remind you of anybody?) That way they knew I wanted my marriage but if it was going to be made into something dirty and a mockery then I wouldn't wait any longer and that I endured enough. Then I stood firm. He kept waffling and waffling. Then he found second OW and I said forgetta bout' it.

Yea, I am divorced. But I couldn't change him. I wished I had gotten much more TOUGHER EARLIER. That's my only regret. But I was very loving like you. And look where I ended up. Too long a plan A, too painful a long plan A and should have gotten a firmer plan and put on my game face and gone into the ring much earlier than I did.

We can all wallow in what we are dealt. When we decide to have a plan and do something concrete is when we begin to reclaim our lives. And divorce isn't the end of life. It's horrible though. It's definitely not where I want to be. But I am dealt this hand because of my xH. I am at peace because of that. And I am going to do right for my son always. I will honor my committment to God and to my son.

Let him lie and waffle to OW. Tell him you're done and if he moves out from living with OW and does something then he can come and tell you about it. Tell him if he TELLS YOU WHAT HE'S GONNA DO IT WON'T WORK. Tell him that he HAS TO SHOW YOU AND DO IT.

It's as simple as that. And remember each action has an equal and opposite reaction. So if your child comes back smelling of OW in her precious baby carrier, give him a new reaction. Serve him with papers and st and tough...Ask for full custody because your kids don't need to be subjected to this kind of abuse. Yea, its abuse. LEt's hope that he doesn't unseat Jethro as the worst WS at MB.

Peachy,

STBX has been kind enough to allow me to tell my own story on her thread and it looks like you've combined both of our stories together -- it doesn't really matter - our WH's are behaving similarly but the details are a little different.

STBX is not allowing her baby to be taken to OW's and my WH has full visitation with both children everyother weekend and does take the baby to OW's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My attorney, friends and therapist said that I can't really tell WH who he can and can't have the children around. And if you do tell him that, how do you really enforce it? Our separation agreement does state that neither child shall be left in the sole care of an "unapproved party" (ie. OW) but my WH has broken this part of the contract 2xs that I know of with my 3 year old.

Each time he does this, I take a portion of assets that have control of and put it in my account. Tit for tat -- you broke this part of the agreement, so I'm fining you. Not very mature but it helps me deal with this issue (my children being cared for by OW) that I seem to have no control over.

Someone help me CALM DOWN PLEASE!!!

I'm pissed, pissed!!!!! I can't believe this.

My WH called and asked if I was busy. I said I'm working. He says well I just wanted to ask about the kids, so I say what about them. He says I just want to talk about the kids, so I say, "ask".

He asks about our little girl and why I didn't take her to my in-laws and I said I didn't know I had to. I told him that she would be there next Sunday. And he asked about our son. How he was doing and I said he was fine. He said something about his hair cut which I gave him and then he says something like:
"You know for someone trying to work things out you sure aren't showing it. AAARRRRGGGG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I was like WHAT???!!!???!!??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I said, "Me not showing I want to work things out, what about you!! Look, you know what it takes to work things out." He then says you don't even want to talk to me. I said, "I do talk to you, but you know what it's gonna take for us to talk and start working things out. You can say one thing and do the total opposite." Then I started saying, "Look you need to think about............" then I stopped myself and said no, you know what I'm not gonna say anything.

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

What does he want, he wants me to say yes baby I love you and I want you to come back to me, pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeeeee! He want's to know that I'm still in his little triangle and that I'm still playing his game! Well I'm done playing the game. CHECK MATE!

He wants to work it out, he's gotta prove it.

I can't believe he said that I don't show that I want to work it out.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

{{{{{{{{STBXW}}}}}}}}} As I said before, my WH said a lot of the same stuff as yours is saying now, until I finally had enough (1.5 years after he moved in with MOW!) and ended all contact. I think he might've strung me along forever. He was still coming over or calling almost daily, telling me he loved me in one breath, then screaming vile abuse at me in the next, all the while blaming our separation on me for not giving him enough admiration.

HE had the A (one of several, it now appears), HE has the drug and alcohol problem, HE abandonned our jointly owned and operated business, HE was verbally abusive and kicked in my door three times and thrashed the house, yet it was me who "always loved an ex-boyfriend more than him," me who falsely accused him of alcoholism and drug addiction when in actuality he'd, "learned how to drink normally," me who "stole" the business from him, me who "didn't have a clue about what it was like to be abused since he never laid a hand on me (not entirely true)," and me who wasn't doing whatever it was I was supposed to do to win him back. Amazing.

I agree with Peachy's suggested reading - LMBT and SAA. Plan B will help preserve what love you have, in case your WH ever comes around, and help you to detach gradually in case he doesn't. You have no control over his decision. The only person you can do anything about is you.

Hi STBX.

It's incredible the things they say/beleive isn't it? The good news (if there is any) is that your WH has shown you that he is well aware of what he said to you in the court room and is well aware of what your standards now are. I think he was baiting you with the ... "you're not trying very hard." To get you stired up and to see where you stand now. Stay firm - you don't have to repeat yourself. He has shown he knows what he's doing.

My WH's favorite thing to say is..."I needed you to pull me in. You pushed me away while OW pulled me in." And another (this was originally said by OW but WS likes to repeat it), "all DueInJan needed to do was to take you in her arms and tell you everything was going to be alright. You tried to return."

Bull. I was there too. I had read MB by then. I did everything I humanly could have including watching him mourn for OW. He was as prickly as a cactus. I tried but he wouldn't let me in.

Hang tight STBX. He's going to blame you for not trying. But "trying" didn't work either, did it?

I thought I was having some sort of nervous breakdown last night. My 3 yo was being a real pill and I completely broke down with sadness over this whole situation (I've felt this way for the last 2 days - overwhelming sadness). I came very close to calling WH (saying what? I don't know). I prayed to God and then I realized that I was having PMS. That made me feel a lot better - that maybe there was another reason for the extreme sadness and that it would pass. I really had been feeling like I was regressing.

Just keep going minute by minute, STBX. I think you sound incredibly strong.

STBX -

Are you out there? How are you? I'm guessing no new developments since you haven't written. I had a pretty tough spell this week - I've been very sad. I went to my IC who said this is to be expected (i.e. the ups and downs).

I've been good about NC with my WH though - even though I have to fight from calling him when I get frustrated or overwhelmed.

Wednesday night he had the kids and forgot to return my 3 yo's "blanket". He went to my parents on Thursday to return it (they keep the baby right now during the day while I'm at work). My parents said that WH stayed a their house playing with the baby etc. for an hour or more. They gave him some baked goods and I think enjoyed their time with him. Go figure? I guess it's nice my parents can have a good relationship with WH. He's a strange guy - our/my closeness to my parents was one of the things WH complained about. I'm strating to feel like the "outsider" -- mean ol' DueInJan won't play with WH.

Hi Dueinjan,
No, don't really have new developements! Haven't talked to my WH since that day he called, which was on Monday, I think. Just kind of blew it off. He's insane!

A couple of days after that call he came by my parents house to pick up my son and I walked out side with my son while my WH was waiting in the car. And from a distance, I smiled and waved hi, looking very nice and THIN! He waved back, not looking too happy for what ever reason. Just wanted to let him know that I'm going on with life and nothing he does or says bothers me anymore. At least I want him to think that.

Well I'm sorry to hear that you've been having a lot of ups and downs. Believe me I've been there. But lately I've been having a lot of ups. Trying to keep busy and not thinking about things too much. Trying to GO ON WITH LIFE! I mean that's all WE can do. Right?

Have you gone out at all since all this has been happening? I mean like, out with girlfriends, just girlfriends, to go have dinner and drinks. I highly suggest it. I've been going out a lot more now with friends and friend from work. And have been having lots of fun.

Find someone to to take care of the kids, one night and go out dancing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You need to make time for just you. Trust me, it'll be good for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Try it this weekend!

Hi STBX -

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I've been going out a little bit with people from work. I'm fairly new to this area so most of my friends are people I know from work. That helps. Problem is...I feel a strange compulsion to tell people my "story" once I've had a few drinks -- after I share this with some unknown (or known) person I feel kind of bad -- like I was using this crappy story to get attention, sympathy or something. I don't know, it's strange. I get what I think of as "my story hangover."

The last time I went out I had some guy tell me, "you look good for having 2 kids..." hum? well, it's sort of a complement - I'll take what I can get <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, the one benefit to our situation is that it did help me take off pregnancy weight and I didn't even gain that much because I was so depressed during the pregnancy. I would tell my WH, "you didn't even have the decency to have this affair while I wasn't pregnant and could really take advantage of the weight loss opportunity!"

I've been focusing on my appearance too and doing quite a bit of shopping. My work friends call it "retail therapy" and several are going through different kinds of crises so they're always willing to indulge my lunch-time shopping habit. I do have to get control of the spending though - I won't be able to keep up this pace.

In fact, the last time my WH saw me, he said, "look at you. You look great. I've become a shell of a man." Yep. Now, OW is a really skinny little bean pole with over-plucked eyebrows but she is attractive if you like the neurotic/fragile/depressed type. Oh well.

What do your folks think about all of this? You live with them right? Are they nice to WH? Do they help watch the children? You sound like you're doing great especially considering what your WH did/said recently. Good for you STBX.

Here's a question. OW's H and I are thinking of meeting. They are divorcing too. They have no children and were married about 5 years. We have been in contact quite a bit during the A and swapped stories when we were being lied to. He lives an hour away. What do you think about my doing that. I'm curious more than anything. I don't know though - we've been through this together. He's really mad at his wife (the OW) but never says anything against my WH (he's blaming the right person - the one who betrayed him). I, on the other hand, blame her too - not my WH. Displaced anger i guess.

Rambling - sorry.

STBXW,
I have been following this thread and do feel you have been getting excellent advice - esp Steadfast. I also think you have been handling yourself amazingly well under the circumstances. Continue to care for yourself and try not to focus on him.

due in jan,
I think you are a truly strong woman. I have followed all your posts also - even on the other board. I think it is great that you are being so supportive of STBXW.

A side not to peachy (have been meaning to post this but get so busy as I just got in and am too keyed up to sleep so I located this) jethro must have some sorry attorneys. The other poster was correct in stating about her control of who XH takes kids around. You live in the same state as me and this is what the Ga Supreme court ALL agreed on:
We recently held that it is an abuse of discretion to restrict visitation rights by prohibiting their exercise in the presence of a certain person. Brandenburg v. Brandenburg, 274 Ga. 183, 184 (1) (551 S.E.2d 721) (2001).

1. Appellant contends the trial court abused its discretion in prohibiting him from exercising his right to visitation with his children in the presence of Pike whether or not they marry. It is the express policy of this State to "encourage parents to share in the rights and responsibilities of raising their children after such parents have separated or dissolved their marriage." O.C.G.A. § 19-9-3 (d). In this regard, we have held that a trial court abuses its discretion when it places an unnecessarily burdensome limitation on the exercise of a parent's right of visitation. Katz v. Katz, 264 Ga. 440 (445 S.E.2d 531) (1994). See Griffin v. Griffin, 226 Ga. 781, 784 (3) (177 S.E.2d 696) (1970) (divorced parent has right of access to child, which may be denied only under exceptional circumstances).

This was a Ga case very similiar to your's in that the FBS/XW had a stipulation IN D decree that her XH couldn't bring child/ren around his FOW. The Ga supreme court ruled that was an abuse of trial court's authority unless it could be expressly demonstrated that this person posed a signidficant threat to the child/ren. Her mere status as the FOW did not count.

All the Justices concur.

FMM's XW tried to have her atty get the same stipulation you have in your decree/agreement, but even I, w/ no legal training, was able to halt that idea in its tracks.

You ought to applaud your attys and jethro ought to fire his! tew

Hi Dueinjan,
I'm sorry I haven't been able to post my reply to your question. Been really busy with stuff and the WH and OW are having problems and OF COURSE, WH is blaming me for them. AARRGGGGG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I'll fill you in later.

I haven't forgoten about you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WH and OW are having problems and blaming you?? What??!! I'm interested to hear about this.

So, I've had to have some communication with WH due to child care needs this week. I've decided I'm only going to treat him with respect, calmness and kindness -- but that I'm still going to file for D as soon as possible in August.

The only problem is that when I act nice, kind and calm I feel like he starts thinking, "well, she sounds like she's ok with all of this now." I'm not.

But any way, he gets off work at 12 in the summer and doesn't work on Fridays (teacher) so I said "hey" could you drop by the house while I'm at work and look at the lawn mower because it's broken. And while you're at it...could you mow the grass and weed the flower bed? I just got a phone message that he did all these things and a few other chores as well. I locked the house doors but left the garage open.

Is this still Plan B? He actually loves to do "house stuff".

Hi Dueinjan,
How have you been? Did you ever meet with the OW H? Why are you planning on meeting? What are you two going to talk about? I'm sorry for all the questions, just want to know more about what the meeting is about.

Don't you think both of you would be too vulnerable to meet? I mean, do you think that maybe you two will start getting emotionally attached? I don't know, just my opinion. I think maybe you should becareful about it.

Well I haven't been really posting b/c nothing has been going on...........until Saturday.

I know everything I did was like against MB principles and procedures but I didn't care anymore.

Well I recieved a call from my WH,he asked if our S could stay over at my inlaws an extra night, he had already stayed over on Friday and I said ok. He was telling me that they were going to have a b-day party for one of his aunts. So I said it was ok. I hung up and started feeling really depressed. I wasn't a part of the family anymore and I thought maybe he was going to take his OW over and my mind just started racing. Well I called my BIL and asked him to call my WH and ask him to call me. Well he called right back and I said, "I was thinking maybe I can take the baby over to the party and stay with you." "I mean i thought maybe it would be ok, but if you're planing on taking someone else I understand" I I know I should have never done this, being in a 'Plan B' and all but I just wanted to see what he would say. Well he says, I wasn't planing on staying there too long but let me call you back.

Well about an hour later he calls back and asks if I can drop the baby off. He's like I dont think it's a good idea that you stay because I don't really think you want to work things out. I was like WHAT? So I started, you haven't proved to me that you want to work things out. Then he starts saying, I'm still confused, blah blah blah. I got upset, I told him that I was fine and that I can go on with out him and he's like I know, I know you're fine and I know we'll all be ok, and so will the kids! I was like you know what I have to go, cut him off and hung up.

I called him at his moms about an hour later and told him that was going to drop off the baby.

Well I got there we talked for about a minute, gave him a ring he gave me for Valentines day last year and told him that if he ever wanted to come back to give this ring back to me. I originally wanted to give him the promise ring he gave me back in high school but its stored away some where. It was kind of me saying good bye. He's like, I know I F*cked up. I feel like I'm putting a gun to my head and pulling the trigger. And I told him, you're not the same person anymore, you're different, you've changed. And he's like I know. I told him, you'll come back, I feel it in my heart. We have a bond. And he's like, it's unbreakable. We hugged, I gave him a kiss and said good bye. I left in my car and I just cried for about an hour. I just drove around crying and thinking about everything.

Well this was on Saturday. He called me yesterday and told me that I should becareful who I talk to b/c people are talking about me. I was like, what are you talking about and he started telling me that people were talking about what happened on Saturday. I told him that I didn't care who knew, and I didn't think I did anything worng. And he was like I don't think you did anything wrong either and said if he were in the same position he'd probably do the same thing. Then he starts saying something about not wanting to fight with me and he wanted us to remain friendly to each other if we are to ever have a chance. Which I didn't understand what that was all about.

Anyone knowing was totally immpossible. I only told my best freind and she swears to me that she told no one and I believe her.

Anyways I ask who told him that and he said it was his GF, she over heard two girls in a bar talking about it. Which is a total lie. I think he told her. Well apperently she wasn't too happy for whatever reason and I guess they started arguing about it.

Well he called back about an hour later asking if she called me. I was kind of like what? But I said, yeah she called and started telling me to leave you two alone. Which is a total lie. I guess I wanted to get her in trouble. I wanted him to get mad at her. (He wanted me to play his game and I did) He was like, yeah why don't you just leave us alone. I was like what, she called me. And I did leave you two alone. He started saying that he was going to leave her and he wasn't coming back to me. He said, I hate you and I don't want you anymore. I was pissed by this time so I said, I don't care if you leave her, leave, I don't want you anymore either.

UUUGGGHHHHHHH!!! So that's the whole long story. I know I shouldn't have done a lot of the stuff that I did but, I don't care. I'm done. I don't think that it'll work anymore.

I think I just want to stay away from both of them from now on.

UGH! Dear STBX, I think you need to go deeply into Plan B again - not necessarily to save your marriage but to save yourself. You seem so much more at peace when you haven't had contact with WH. I know it tough with the children but you need to set a schedule with him and stick to it so that these "can I have the kids tonight" kinds of calls don't have to occur. It not fair to you.

I went through the same thing - there is always a reason one of the other of you can call when there are kids involved. I finally set a schedule and when my WH would call and say "I haven't seen OS lately, can I pick him up from day care?" I'd say, "Listen, we have a schedule and we need to stick with it. Maybe some day it won't be like this and we can work more flexibly together, but right now I need a schedule and so does OS. I don't want to have to see you all the time." I really did want to see him but I feel so much better when I don't.

I can't really comment on the events of last Saturday except to say that I know how hurtful and confusing it all is. You know I participated in all types of similar dramas myself. I have to say though, I do kind of like the part about giving him the ring. It's all an effort to say, "don't you understand???? I'm serious!!! You can't keep doing this to me!!!" I did the same thing but with his personal stuff -- gave him his college diploma, took him off the car insurance, filed the separation papers, refinanced the house, etc. etc. I hoped that SOMETHING ANYTHING would open his eyes to what he's doing.

You can't save him from his mistakes. You have to save yourself from being hurt from them any more. I'm sorry STBX that you're going through this.

Regarding the meeting with OW's H -- we were going to do it this upcoming weekend but I haven't heard back from him. I don't really think it's a great idea. Already, I'm feeling kind of rejected by the fact that he hasn't responded. He asked to meet, I suggested the weekend and I haven't heard back. GOD KNOWS I DON"T NEED TO SET MYSELF UP FOR ANY REJECTION ESPECIALLY FROM SOMEONE AFFILIATED WITH OW!

We'd probably just sit around and talk about the hell we've been through over the past year --guess I could do without that!!

Well, keep me posted. Take care - go dark. Not for your marriage or your family but for you.

P.S. My "lawn boy" did a nice job weeding the flowers and cutting the grass.