I have been praying and praying that my wife would have a change of heart and be willing to give our marriage another try, and would believe that I have changed, and be willing to give me a chance to show her this.

However, we met with our counselor today, and unfortunately she has no desire to continue things.

She wants me to still be her friend, but that means giving her space and not contacting her for a while. I think she gave up about a year ago, back when we almost separated.

Not much I can do. She just doesn't think that we were really ever compatible nor right for each other. I disagree, but that probably isn't the issue. She thinks that the dynamics of our marriage never were right, nor does she think that they ever could, nor does she ever think that she can ever go back and feel anything for me.

It really hurts, but I guess that next time (if there is a next time), communication needs to start right away in a relationship, and intervention probably needs to start immediately. I don't know. I just am of the opinion that just about any couple can be compatible.

How do you ever move on, and have hope that there will ever be someone else? It is tough being 42 and already being dumped by two former wives.

Is is ever worth waiting to see if things change, or is it usually best to just go ahead with a divorce if someone gives up on you? If I have to, I guess (maybe I should) just concentrate of shutting down all of my feelings for her, because it seems that this would be the easiest way. Why does someone just give up, someone that is a pretty devout Christian, eve though things have not bee going well, when one partner has finally gotten his act together to do something about his problems?

Thanks again, and I will continue to pray for everyone each Wednesday.

Gregg

So sorry to hear this Gregg.... give her some time.. she might come around. All you can do is focus on being a better person because of all of this... Take a trip you have always wanted to take, build something, start a new hobby, read a great book.... Just so something for yourself.

Let her make up her mind, and eventually she will make the right choice. Just continue to be nice to her. No fighting. No controlling. Just let her be her own person for a while. She needs a break.

Good luck. StayStrong always, and keep praying if that is what makes you feel better...

~Heather

Hey Gregg,
Sorry to hear things didn't go the way you wanted. You hang in there and keeping growing stronger for yourself.

It may be that she will change her mind and she may not. It's not like you have to wait forever for her and it's not like you have to go out looking for someone right now. Just take life as it comes for a while. Could be by the time she comes around, you may not want to try anymore.

Try to have some fun and take the advice StayStrong gave you. Find yourself. There is no greater feeling than liking yourself and being happy with who you really are.

Best of luck,
Free

Greggc,

I just wanted to say how sorry I feel that you have to be in this situation. I also wanted to share something that just happened.

I was just at the Restoration of Marriage Prayer group post and I was praying for everyone there and some individually ( I often start on Tues. night with my prayers). You said that your wife is a Christian. Well, while I was praying there for you and your W, the phrase, all things are possible through Christ Jesus, kept running through my mind.

I am sure that I am misquoting the scripture, but if it helps you, look it up and meditate on it tonight. Maybe you will have the opportunity to share that with her at some point, too.

Some times we are all in a place where we have given up hope, like your W. But it's always a wooman's perogative to change her mind at any time for any reason - you must know that by now, right???

I hope that you will keep praying for her, and take some time out for yourself and rethink the divorce issue. I know it hurts to hear her say these things and I don't know much about your situation, whether there is OM and A involved, or how long you have been separated, but I have read many posts here over the past months where people have divorced and then gotten back together, sometimes after as long as 2 years apart.

It is not my intent to give you false hope or to change your mind, just to pray and ask God what he wants you to do and to let you know that there are others out here who care and we hear you.

Also, I am getting lots of advice and pressure from family and friends to divorce my WH and they even think I a crazy for not filing for divorce and moving on, but I am sticking to what I know God's word says, and it says, he hates divorce. So make sure you are feeling pressured by others into doing something you aren't 100% sure of.

Did you have a Plan A or Plan B yet?

Be strong and tomorrow I know you will feel all of us praying for you.
cajeanie

Focus On Jesus

come on and join us hang out with us...and grow in the knowledge of the Lord..

we are just a few right now so you will feel comfortable..but it will give you a place to come that will welcome you and accept you..

I am sorry things didn't work out..but I will pray God will move on her heart...and yours..
EarthAngel...SadEyes...

there are message boards...there..so come on in..and enjoy and post..Keep on Keeping on.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for all of your support Free, SadEyes and cajeanie!!

You guys make me feel so much better.

It's so hard to understand when people don't believe that anything is possible.

Even our counselor said that he felt doubtful all along, and that he said that sometimes people just aren't compatible.

I just don't understand why it is so hard for people (including my wife) to understand that God says that divorce is wrong.

I guess some people just don't get it, and maybe that is the hard part about being a Christian.

I guess that I never got it either until just a few weeks ago. I thought that maybe I would be mad at God or something, but I'm not at all. I was just hoping that he would be ready to answer my prayer, but not angry or anything. I might have been angry at an earlier period in my life.

SadEyes, I will vistit the FocusOfJesus site and hang out with you.

It's difficult to feel like hanging our with anyone else during these times. Thanks for being there for me all of you. I will return the care and consideration. Just let me know what I can do for you guys.

Also cajeanie, I thought that Plan A and/or Plan B were only for when one spouse has had an affair. I don't have any proof or reason to believe that there is someone else involved.

Thanks again,

Gregg

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>

Gregg,

I posted to you on other thread. I do believe God is calling you to stand with Him for this marriage.

Cajeanie,

Praise God you are standing with Him and not giving into the world way. I know it is hard when you are not doing what friends and family are advising you to do. I have been thru this fire many times. Praise God, He has put Christian friends in my life now that support my stand. Most now believe with me that my husband will be home soon. Most of my family has even came around. God changes hearts. He turns things around. Don't give in, stay strong in Him.

gentle

I know exactly how you feel Gregg because I'm going through the same thing. I've been separated alittle over a month now and each time I think I've given her enough space to sort things through, nothings changed. No positive feedback, no time-frame, nothing to gauge how she feels or which direction she's leaning towards. I don't understand how not trying or not doing anything can help us. I know I have to focus on me, but I'm not sure who me is anymore. Me is in limbo. Me feels kinda lost and pathetic, grasping at nothing. When I see her and the way she reacts to me now, it hurts so much. Feels like the twilight zone.

Hi Gregg,
I've been thinking (could be dangerous for me) but there is a difference between letting go and giving up. I posted this some time ago but thought it might help encourage you.

Giving Up and Letting Go

Giving up implies a struggle
Letting go implies a partnership

Giving up says there is something to lose
Letting go says there is something to gain

Giving up dreads the future
Letting go looks forward to the future

Giving up lives out of fear
Letting go lives out of grace and trust

Giving up is defeat
Letting go is victory

Giving up is unwillingly yielding control to forces beyond myself

Letting go is choosing to yield to forces beyond myself

Giving up believes that God is to be feared
Letting go trusts in God to care for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GreggC:
<strong>How do you ever move on, and have hope that there will ever be someone else? It is tough being 42 and already being dumped by two former wives.

Is is ever worth waiting to see if things change, or is it usually best to just go ahead with a divorce if someone gives up on you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This has been on my mind a lot lately, but for a very different reason. I won't go into detail, but suffice to say that I'm probably going to lose out on a relationship with a really, really wonderful woman because her XH (they've been divorced for 2 years, and separated for a year before that) simply cannot let go.

Is it worth waiting? For how long? It is different for everyone, and I cannot agree with the "stand for the marriage no matter what" idea. Even the Harleys will tell you that some marriages are not meant to be.

When I was going through my separation and divorce, I thought I wasn't fighting hard enough. I spent a lot of time here at MB...wishing I could Plan A a little better, and holding out hope that she would come around and see how wrong she was!

In retrospect, I realize now that I fought way to hard to save a marriage that never should have happened. She was right, and it took far too long for me to come to that realization.

I know this may bother some people here, but I was only able to move on after I accepted the fact that she was never, ever coming back.

How long should you wait? Only you can answer that question, Gregg. How do you move on? Well, you can't move on until you've accepted that the relationship is over.

Is there hope?

Well, let me tell you about a couple I met while I was on vacation...

Dave's 48, and Cindy is 50. They both had a couple of divorces under their belts, but I've gotta say, it's been a long, long time since I've seen two people more in love than Dave & Cindy. They're perfect for each other...two peas in a pod.

When I hang out with them, I realize that there's always hope.

I believe you should only "stand" with God no matter what, if God has told you to stand. When we take a stand with God it must be His will. You must ask God what He will have you do. God led me to stand and wait so that is what I will do.

gentle

Hey Gregg,
How are you doing? I agree with bothviews here. You should seek God and what he would have you to do in this situation, (in all situations). He sees the whole big picture and he knows what plans he has for you life, and they are for good, not for evil. His ways are not our ways and somtimes what he tells us to do makes no sense to us at all.

I always felt God was telling me to let go of the marriage. This was hard to do because, to me, it did not line up with his word. When I was finally able to obey and let go, everything turned around. I'm not saying this is what will happen in every case. The point being we have to know God well enough to hear his voice, to recognize it and to obey. God is bringing you to a new understanding and richer and fulfilling life if you will let him.

Hearts can change. I am a perfect example. But then again, I left a door open for God to change me heart.

If you let go, but don't loose your faith, it is not going to jepordize anything. If you are trusting God and growing with him, he will bring you through it the victor. Let him be your comfort and your guide.

As much as we would all like answers and know what to do with no doubt, none of us can safely direct your path but God. This is the relationship you can safely work on right now because He will never leave you or forsake you.
I believe if we have this relationship intact, our other reationships can only benefit. There is no greater feeling than peace of mind. We cannot get that from anyone but God and knowing him. We are not perfect as humans, none of us and someone will always let you down. The secret to inner joy is not what our circumstances provide, but how we handle it and react to it. We cannot control the world or anyone in it. We only have control over ourself and what we choose to do. And even then circumstances take take over and change our plans.

We can become consumed with our desires and block out reality completly, or we can live our life with hope and faith, but get on with life never the less.

The Bible does say that God hates divorce. It says it three times. It says so much more, so many more times that we tend to ignore or disregard. Don't let this one thought become your religion. There is much more, to
God, than the fact that He hates divorce. I don't think it would benefit us to stand soley on this teaching and ignore the rest of what God has for us. To focus only on the fact that God hates divorce, so you are standing for marriage no matter what, is almost like using it as a justification and crutch. (This may open up a can of worms) But think about it. Yes it is a fact, but if that's all that drives us, wouldn't we begin to feel that we are the only one trying to obey God in the situation and the spouse was doing "wrong" by not obeying? Doesn't our focus and reality have a chance to become distorted? Couldn't this thought allow us to become a little smug in our thinking?

I still stand by what I said earlier about getting to know yourself and being honest with yourself about what and who you are. How can you become a better person if you don't know your shortcomings and faults? You can't correct something if you don't know what is wrong in the first place. You can't grow if you don't see the need.

Your wife may have no more hope, but her hope is not your hope!

God Bless you in your journey!
Free

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Free ]</small>

Thanks Heather for saying:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let her make up her mind, and eventually she will make the right choice. Just continue to be nice to her. No fighting. No controlling. Just let her be her own person for a while. She needs a break.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does make me feel good to be nice to her. It has been a good feeling just being positive in all the people that I deal with and being kind to them "all", well almost, the time. Just yesterday I went and got us (my wife Kim and I) something from the deli at the grocery store. She was really thankful and thought that was really thoughtful that I did this. (Important to understand is that we now have seperate bank accounts, so it was my money that I used, and she knows that I do no have much money.)Regardless of the outcome, I knew I was just trying to be kind in and of itself, and it felt really good, and I think she knew that I did not expect anything out of this.

I really have spent so much time reflecting on the things that I want to be better at (ways of being kind to people, praying more for other people, and acknowledging the exact things taht I honestly can't believe I did (in how I treated my wife with criticism or took her joy away) It is (other than the sadness of thinking of these things possibly too late) a very positive learning experience and a way to feel that I have accomplished at least knowing what I am changing about myself.

Thanks again. How are you doing?? (Maybe I'll look to see if you have other posts.)

Gregg

Thak you all once again for all your support!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Gentle,

Thanks for your support. Even though we both go to the same church. I will continue to go to this church. Maybe it is a way for us to both continue to get closer to God, and maybe eventually together. Maybe the presence of the Holy Spirit in all of us us in many other ways.

Gentle, I don’t know if I can hear God, but I think I felt his presence today, just kind of a feeling going through my body. How did you hear God telling you what to do?
You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do believe God is calling you to stand with Him for this marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What makes you feel this?

Couglin,

I’m sorry. Maybe that should help me prepare for this too (one month from now.) I decided last Sunday that I was going to get more involved in my church activities. This is probably what I should have done a long time ago. Yesterday I started singing with the worship team (those that help lead the praise songs in front of the congregation.) I really enjoyed it. Hanging around positive people looking to God is the best thing for you I think. Do you have a church you go to? It really helps hanging around Christians that support me. Maybe it would help you feel better too?

Thanks, Free. That is a great way to think (about giving up and letting go). I’ll have to print this out and put this on the wall at my new place. I move out this weekend.

Thanks for all your kindness. I hope that you still have time left for your husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thanks, cjack!!

You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This has been on my mind a lot lately, but for a very different reason. I won't go into detail, but suffice to say that I'm probably going to lose out on a relationship with a really, really wonderful woman because her XH (they've been divorced for 2 years, and separated for a year before that) simply cannot let go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you mean that this ex is making if hard for this woman to be able to find happiness with you, or is it just sad (for you that is) that God is maybe bringing them back together because he hasn’t given up?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GreggC:
<strong>Do you mean that this ex is making if hard for this woman to be able to find happiness with you, or is it just sad (for you that is) that God is maybe bringing them back together because he hasn’t given up?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I don't want to go into much detail (since this is your thread about your situation, and I don't want to derail it), but suffice to say that the alcoholic, manipulative lout is making it hard for her to find happiness with anyone, not just me!

The chances of her going back to him are the same as me going back to my XW: slim and none. Maybe I wouldn't have that relationship with her that I would like to have, but because of him, I won't even get the chance!

Sorry cjack,

Thanks for clarifying this though.

I hope that this man at least somehow feels it in his heart for this woman to be happy, and stops holding in if it results h=in her further unhappiness and manipulation.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Gregg

Visit www.savemymarriage.com

Hi Gregg,

I have been reading your posts for awhile (followed your previous one) and it gives me encouragement. My situation is strikingly similar to yours except it's my husband who has given up hope. Funny how being on the outside gives some extra perspective... I want so much to try and save our marriage, but find no way to get my husband engaged with it. Some days I feel so desperate, even though I understand I need to give it up to God. It's my third time around, which brings up a lot of shame and disappointment to think that our marriage won't succeed.

My husband moved out last November. I came home from work one day and he was gone. He called me from his brother's saying he wasn't coming back. We started some counseling, but it wasn't a marriage counselor and we weren't offered tools to really help our situation. Once I found the Marriage Builders site and suggested that it might be more helpful, my husband jumped at the chance to quit counseling. We tried exploring each others needs and I was working to better understand his, but there seemed apathy on his part - once I commented on this and he decided to quit that path, too, saying "You're never satisfied".

I came to understand that a big part of the problem was that he was suffering from depression so there was no energy to work on the marriage, and everything seemed hopeless to him. In February, he told me he needed more space because the emotional pain was too great and the only way to heal the marriage was for us to stop seeing each other. I was very doubtful, but agreed to try if he would get counseling for his depression. I started with another counselor, but he never did.

When I realized that social isolation is really bad for people with depression I dropped in on him, worried about how his health was, offering to call the doctor for follow-up to the medication she prescribed and to make appointments for therapy for the depression. He was very pleasant to me on that day, but the following day emailed me that he would file for divorce (kind of like being fired by email - VERY painful!).

In April, the medication seemed to be working and he looked like he was coming out of the depression (we had to meet to sign off on tax returns). He suggested that we try dating and not go back to fix things, just start over. I was encouraged but cautious. We did that for 3 weeks, then I didn't hear from him for a month.

Last month, the counselor I was seeing could see how difficult it was for me to not know what was going on with him and our relationship. Her advice: tell him how you feel (the ups & downs) and tell him what you need, knowing that there are no guarantees that he will provide what I ask (another thing: no judgments, like "it's been going on too long" which may not be the case for him). I had prefered things to be in limbo, a painful place to be, than to know he wanted to end things. However, I finally felt I was in a place where I was ready "to know". SO I explained how hard things had been, how I wanted to work on it, asked if/when he would be willing to develop our relationship again. The response - he appologized for leaving me in limbo for so long and served me with divorce papers.

I really want to "make" him give it another try. To have him move out without discussing how bad things were for him before hand, and to never really have given it a chance to improve things since then fills me with despair. It's like being in a wasteland where there is no redemption, no second chances - being punished according to rules I didn't know existed. We are both Christians (he has stopped going to our church) so we understand how important forgiveness is.

I have been repeatedly sad, like you. Sometimes I think I focus too much on the grief and not enough on what's good in my life. I can't stop thinking about him, trying to rehearse just the right words that would make him give me another chance.

I read a book that has been very helpful to me, and I've felt it was important to share with you: "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. It details what we already know: how you think about your situation affects your response and how you feel. However, there are some very useful tips for how to change the way you think. It's made a huge impact on my mood and outlook, and my kids have been thankful for the noticeable improvement.

Thank you for sharing your experiences about what you've been through. As I said, these posts (including Free's insight) has encouraged me, knowing that there are others working to overcome similar situations (sometimes succeeding!).

Sally

Hi Sally,

Thanks for sharing what you are going through, and I'm truly sorry that this is so hard. I know how you feel.

I've been doing a lot of praying about asking God to help me to leave it in his hands. I have also been praying for God to soften my wife's heart and to pray that she can see the Holy Spirit in me. I have also been praying for God to open her heart to Him, and to help me do the right thing this time, and to be the husband that she had hoped that she had married.

I have just been trying to appreciate everything good that there is. I have told God that I don't deserve this chance, but that I will continue praying with all my heart and should that he should be merciful and that through his grace that this prayer be answered.

I have not been pressuring her in the time leading to my moveout yesterday. I have just been trying to show her that I am grateful for any time that I have the priviledge of spending with her in what ever capacity.

I told her yesterday as I was leaving for the first night away from our house, that I was truly sorry for letting her down all these years, and sorry for causing her to lose her trust in me. I told her as I was leaving that if she ever changes her mind, I would like to do things differently. I think that she is seeing that I have changed, but I don't think that she can trust me anymore at least not yet, not to let her down, or not to criticize her, and all the rest of the baggage that stands between us. Then I told her I loved her, with tears in my eyes.

I really appreciated reading what your counselor had said to you:
Her advice: tell him how you feel (the ups & downs) and tell him what you need, knowing that there are no guarantees that he will provide what I ask (another thing: no judgments, like "it's been going on too long" which may not be the case for him).

I am truly sorry that you had to get divorce papers shoved in your face, maybe that will be me soon as well

Sorry that he has stopped going to your church. At least my wife and I still go to the same church. Through my patience, I have found out that many people at our church are praying for us. I am hoping that the Holy Spirit will bring us all together and will someday give our marriage another chance. Maybe you could pray that your husband is ok, and that God softens his heart, and eases his pain. It helps me when I do this, and I think God can see it in my heart. I just keep asking God for another chance, and at the same time tell God I am sorry for letting him down too.

I really want to "make" him give it another try. since then fills me with despair. It's like being in a wasteland where there is no redemption, no second chances - being punished according to rules I didn't know existed.

I know how you feel about this as well. Don't beat yourself. (easier said than done, as I do this allthe time too.) I just try to humble myself before God, and keep telling him that I am sorry for letting both him and my wife down. I truly never deserved the fine gift that he gave me when I was lucky enough to have her be my wife. I keep telling him that I am sorry that I never made the effort that I should have until now and that I was truly ungrateful. I just keep telling God that this woman is so wonderful, and that I just pray that God will give us a chance to do things differently, and for me to have the chance to bring her the happiness that she had hoped for me to add all along to her life.

It helps me to humble my self, and to tell God that I do not expect anything here. I just pray that this prayer will be answered.

Thanks also for advice on the book. It sounds like I should look at it. I'm glad it has helped you.

Gregg

<small>[ July 07, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>

Well, we have decided that we should get together (talk business or just hang out) once a week (her suggestion) and today was our day for this.

Anyway, I met with her this evening at our/her house. I wasn't sure exactly what she had in mind for us to do. She had said that it would not be for dinner in an email earlier that day, because the house was such a mess and she said, "I don't think I would be able to have a chance to make you something nice for dinner."

So I met her at 7 this evening, I was praying for a chance to ask her forgiveness for things that I had done to her and for letting her down.

When I got there we took care of a few things like me geting my mail, her giving me a few more of my things, then we went in our garden and picked some tomatoes together for about 15 minutes.

She found out that I had fixed our/her vacuum cleaner for her, and she was really touched and thanked me several times for being so considerate to her to do this.

Then she told me about what she had been up to and about some difficulties at work. I told her that I was sorry and was caring to her about this. She asked what I was up to and I told her how I had been into God a lot lately (she's a Christian too, so I think it was a bit impressive to her.) She also had mentioned that she thought I must have been busy lately, since she had left me an answering machine message a couple of days ago, when I didn't pick up. I was a bit elusive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I couldn't help let it bother me that she was now wearing her wedding ring on her other hand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Then I asked if it would be ok if we read some scripture together. She said sure, so I went and got my bible out of the car and the list of things that I wanted to ask her forgiveness for. We were about to read together, and I told her I had something I wanted to tell her.

I proceeded (teary eyed) to tell her all of the things that I wanted to ask her forgiveness for and how I was asking God's forgiveness as well.

When I was done, she was very touched, and said "I didn't even know that you had become a Christian." She gave me a big long hug, and then we talked some religion, and read a little from the bible together. She said she was proud of me for ho much I knew.

Then, I said, I should probably get going so I don't keep you up too late. She said, no you can stay, but I just need to put the garbage out for pickup tomorrow.

I said ok, I'll stay just a few minutes more but I should get going soon.

Then she showed me some cd of her cd's and played some music, and as I was about do go, she gave me a big close hug and we slow danced a few minutes, and she told me that she missed me. (She has done this on about three or four occasions as we were giving each other our good bye hug.) I said, "oh yeah?" Then I paused and said "I miss you too."

Then I left, after she said I'll see you on Saturday for the picnic then ok. (My annual company picnic that has been a tradition for us. I thought about not inviting her--to minimize my asking her to do things first--but I thought that might be a slap in the face.)

How did I do?

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: GreggC ]</small>